Talk:Roman Shukhevych

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Contents

[edit] Nachtigall

Shukhevych ideed commanded that batallion, but the cited source does not mention him as responsible for anything. Besides the other reference suggests they deny that charge. Unless there is a proof of him personally commiting any atrocities, please keep that information at the Nachtigall article. --Hillock65 23:11, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

What do you mean "him personally commiting any atrocities"? Personally cutting someone's throat? The battalion under his command committed the massacre of Jews in Lviv. Since Shukhevych as a commander is responsible for his unit, this atrocity is highly relevant to his biography. Beit Or 17:37, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
How is it relevant? Just a few edits before you moved info on members of that units denying the charge to Nachtigal article as irrelevant here [1], now all of a sudden alleged atrocities of this unit are relevant to a story of Shukhevych? Is there any evidence of him being in command of that unit at that time? He was not sick, on leave, detained, imprisoned? Present evidence of that info forked (WP:CFORK) from another article before inserting it here again. Thank you. --Hillock65 18:43, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
If that was Shukhevych who denied his involvement in the massacre, that material would be relevant to his biography. Otherwise, it has nothing to do here. Beit Or 22:27, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
Also, since you invoke (rather speciously) Wikipedia:Content forking, please read what is not a content fork: "Articles on distinct but related topics may well contain a significant amount of information in common with one another. This does not make either of the two articles a content fork.". Beit Or 22:31, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Beit Or, between when and when was Shukhevich commander of Nakhtigal? When did the pogrom took place? If the second date falls between the first two by all means add it to the article. Now, Hillock, if Beit does provide the refrences, and you believe that Shukhevich was sick/on leave/detained/imprisoned on the day of the pogrom and/or wether he was unaware of it taking place or any other valid reason that would clean his name, it is your responsibility to cite that event. --Kuban Cossack 19:09, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

He was the Ukrainian commander from the beginning; there are no references to him being relieved from command at any point. Beit Or 22:25, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
If you want a more specific reference, here is one: "There were two Ukrainian companies in the German army composed of the members and sympathizers of the OUN under the leadership of Stephen Bandera; one called the Nachtigall, under the command of Roman Shukhevych, entered Lviv with the German forces on June 30." (Volodymyr E. Kubijovyč Ukraine: A Concise Encyclopedia Vol. 1, p. 886. University of Toronto Press, 1963). Beit Or 11:58, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Article expansion

The article has been translated from the Ukrainian Wiki article (with all sources kept intact) Bandurist 13:50, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

The material you have added is either unverifiable, or comes from unreliable sources, or is blatantly antisemitic. For example, you have cited extensively archival materials from Lviv archives; this is a violation of WP:V, which says: "Articles should rely on reliable, third-party published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy." Since archival materials are not published you cannot use them. Where you have provided the publishers, I cannot spot anyone "with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy". Do you have proofs that the Ukrainian publishers Union indeed has such a reputation? And the passage "Jewish sources claim..." is simply disgusting. Beit Or 14:04, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
I Understand that you are unhappy. The article does not share your POV. It is a translation of the article on the Ukrainian Wikipedia. Shukhevych is a contravercial person currently in Ukrainian because of the disinformation that has been spread about him. Recently he was post-humourously awarded the medal Hero of Ukraine by the Ukrainian president. This would not have happened without significant research into Shukhevych's background. The archived materials are accessible, and so are the books. If you would like I can even scan some of the pages for you, but you would do better by ordering them through your local library. Archival materials show exactly where the materials come from and they are accessible (at least to me). I do however find your behavior quite disappointing Bandurist 14:14, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
I have asked you to comment on the reliability and verifiability of your sources. You have responded with personal attacks and violations of WP:AGF. You say, "The archived [sic] materials are accessible..." Please consult WP:V. You can only used published materials. Archival materials thus cannot be used unless they were previously published by a reliable, secondary source. Beit Or 14:42, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
They have been published in a secondary source - The Ukrainian Wikipedia is a secondary source and it has been published. I feel that Wikipedia is a reliable source. However, secondary sources are also available. Bandurist 14:53, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
Alfred M. de Zayas in his book "The Wehrmacht War Crimes Bureau, 1939-1945",(Published by University of Nebraska Press Picton Press, Rockport, Maine, 2000 edition) in Chapter 20 gives an analysis based on document of the tragic massacre in Lviv which contributes to the refutation of the Wiesenthal-Safer Calumny. In his analysis based on documents the 4,000 murdered people were Ukrainian and Polish intellectuals murdered by the NKVD. This was documented by German and by the Ukrainian Red Cross. For an in depth analysis of the Lviv massacres see [[2]] Bandurist 16:43, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
Please do not switch the subject. Do you have anything to say regarding the reliability and verifiability of your sources? Regarding Zayas, your link is not working. Beit Or 20:18, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
I think you meant this link[3]. Whatever the merits of the book and its author, this particular chapter is about the massacre of Ukrainian prisoners before the Soviet withdrawal from Lviv; it's not about the massacre of Jews and Poles after the German occupation. It's just on a different subject. Beit Or 20:26, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
Read the whole article, not just the top three paragraphs. Bandurist 20:38, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
What article are you talking about? Beit Or 20:40, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

The Lviv case gained renewed attention in the fall of 1959 when the Soviet press mounted a major disinformation campaign against a minister in the West German Adenauer cabinet, Theodor Oberländer, accusing him of participating in the SS murders there. On 5 September 1959 the Radianska Ukraina wrote: "Eighteen years ago the fascists committed a horrendous crime in Lviv in the night of 29 - 30 June 1941. The Hitlerites arrested on the basis of prepared lists hundreds of Communists, Communist youth, and non-party members and murdered them in brutal fashion in the courtyard of the Samarstinov Prison." These accusations were picked up by the Western press and eventually led to Oberläander's resignation. The investigation by the district attorney's office in Bonn, however, completely cleared him.

At about the same time an international commission was set up at The Hague in the Netherlands to carry out independent investigations. The members were four former anti-Hitler activists, Norwegian lawyer Hans Cappelen, former Danish foreign minister and president of the Danish parliament Ole Bjørn Kraft, Dutch socialist Karel van Staal, Belgian law professor Flor Peeters, and Swiss jurist and member of parliament Kurt Scoch. Following its interrogation of a number of Ukrainian witnesses between November 1959 and March 1960, the commission concluded: "After four months of inquiries and the evaluation of 232 statements by witnesses from all circles involved, it can be established that the accusations against the Battalion Nachtigall and against the then Lieutenant and currently Federal Minister Oberländer have no foundation in fact.http://www.alfreddezayas.com/Chapbooks/Lembergmassacre.shtml " Bandurist 21:04, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

This paragraph pertains to the accusation by the Soviets described one paragraph above: "The Lvov case gained renewed attention in the fall of 1959 when the Soviet press mounted a major disinformation campaign against a minister in the West German Adenauer cabinet, Theodor Oberländer, accusing him of participating in the SS murders there. On 5 September 1959 the Radianska Ukraina wrote: "Eighteen years ago the fascists committed a horrendous crime in Lvov in the night of 29 - 30 June 1941. The Hitlerites arrested on the basis of prepared lists hundreds of Communists, Communist youth, and non-party members and murdered them in brutal fashion in the courtyard of the Samarstinov Prison."" The commission cleared Nachtigall of the charge of murdering communists and others on 29 - 30 June. The accusation was, of course, a crude Soviet invention, since Nachtigall only entered Lviv on June 30; it couldn't possibly kill anyone in Lviv on June 29. The commission says nothing regarding the murders of Jews in the first days of July. Please do not attribute to the source what it doesn't say. Beit Or 21:06, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
Beit Or, earlier you said "The material you have added is either unverifiable, or comes from unreliable sources, or is blatantly antisemitic." Does this mean you find all of the material to be unverifiable and unreliable? Is there a specific part of this new material that you object to having in the article? Or do you object to all of it? Ostap 00:19, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
The sources for the new material fall into two groups: Lviv archives and books in Ukrainian published by some murky presses. The first group obviously fails WP:V because only published primary or secondary sources may be used; archival materials are unusable until they are published by a reliable source. Ukrainian Wikipedia does not meet the requirements of reliable source. Regarding the second group of sources, I have repeatedly requested the editors who insist on using them as to why they believe these sources are reliable. The requests have so far been ignored. Beit Or 21:10, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Just a general comment. The expansion of the article to include the subject's biography, not just a political one, is a good idea and I very much welcome that. However, Wikipedia, English or non-English, cannot be used as a source of anything. We can of course use foreign language articles in writing our articles but we have to transfer the text from foreign language wikis along with the sources and cite the published sources, not the Wikipedias as references. So, any information that is unsourced can be challenged and if it is repeated from another Wikipedia, where it is also unsourced, does not add any verifiability to the info. The expansion brought in one verifiable source, that is Zayas. Note, however, that Alfred-Maurice de Zayas is not a mainstream scholar and his works are widely viewed to be controversial enough to require at least reverification to mainstream historians. --Irpen 00:46, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

I did some research, and all I could find was Columbia University professor John Armstrong in his book Ukrainian nationalism (review [4]). On page 77, he writes about Ukrainian and Nachtigall participation in these events. He says in a footnote (and I quote) "Interview 24. Raul Hilberg, in his exhaustive study "The Destruction of the European Jews" (Chicago: Quadrangle Books, 1961), p. 330, shows that Ukrainians were involved in violence against Jews in Galicia (see also p. 173 below). It is probable that some Ukrainians assisted the Germans in the massacres of Jews in L'vov soon after the outbreak of the war. Recently, Polish writers have described "eyewiteness accounts" of "Nachtigall" members' participation in these attrocities (Aleksander Drozdznski and Jan Zaborowski, Oberlander: A Study in German East Policies [Poznan: Wydawnictwo Zachodnie, 1960]). I have not, however, been able to find any evidence (other that alledged Polish witnesses) indicating involvement of "Nachtigall" members in anti-Semitic atrocities" Nachtigall is in quotes because it is a codename, as he identifies earlier on page 74. Nonetheless even though he (in 1963) could not find enough evidence he still does imply in his writing that they were involved and he makes it clear that even with the lack of evidence their involvment was very probable. Also, I think the 1990 Encyclopedia of the Holocaust clearly has found enough evidence that they were involved. It is hard to argue with that. It looks like scholarship is against de Zayas, and writing that their participation was "alleged" would seem unnecessary. Ostap 02:08, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
I haven't referenced to a Wikipedia mirror. This is an incorrect assumption of my colleague. The materials were translated from the Ukrainian Wikipedia site (though slightly condensed) keeping all the original references which are given in the original and in translation.
Regarding de Zayas book. He is a historian. He is in the English-speaking mainstream and notwithstanding criticism from a few historians, his works Nemesis at Potsdam and The Wehrmacht War Crimes Bureau were well received in the academic community, and are used in colleges and universities, and remain in print thirty years after their initial publication, and are in the 14th and 7th revised and updated editions, respectively". But it is not that so much as the fact that he does give his sources which are one can also verify.Bandurist 02:11, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
You have copied text from answers.com, a Wikipedia mirror, into Nachtigall Battalion. The text from the Ukrainian Wikipedia relies either on unpublished primary sources, which are prohibited by WP:V or on secondary sources the reliability of which you have so far failed to support with any evidence. Reliability of Zayes (who is a lawyer, not a historian) aside, you have plainly misrepresented his text: he says Nachtigall was cleared of the ludicrous Soviet charge that the battalion had murdered communists in a Lviv prison, he does not say Nachtigall was acquitted of murdering Jews. Beit Or 21:16, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
1) Regarding Alfred-Maurice de Zayas If one reads the Wiki article one notices that he is listed as not just being a lawyer, but also a historian. Further it states that he has not only earned his juris doctor from Harvard Law School and a doctorate of philosophy in modern history from the Georg-August University of Göttingen.
That makes him a historian in my eyes. He has combined his knowlege of history and law to produce some outstanding works. He has been a visiting professor of international law and of world history at a number of institutions, including the Graduate Institute of International Studies (Geneva), the DePaul University College of Law (Chicago), the University of British Columbia (Vancouver), the Geneva School of Diplomacy and International Relations, the Schiller International University (Leysin), the Académie Internationale de Droit Constitutionnel (Tunis), the University of Trier, the Santa Clara Law School, the Center for Applied Studies in International Negotiations (CASIN, Genève), the Institut de Droits de l'Homme Strasbourg, the Felix Ermacora Institute in Vienna, the Raoul Wallenberg Institute in Lund (Sweden), and the Universidad de Alcalá de Henares (Madrid).
He has been member of doctoral commissions at the universities of Geneva, Amsterdam, and Alcalá de Henares. While at the U.N., he was the founder and editor of the series "Selected Decisions of the Human Rights Committee under the Optional Protocol." He is a regular participant in panels and round tables at the United Nations, where he represents the International Society for Human Rights.
He is an impressive figure in my eyes.

His works:

  • Nemesis at Potsdam: the Expulsion of the Germans from the East.
  • A Terrible Revenge: The Ethnic Cleansing of the East European Germans
  • The Wehrmacht War Crimes Bureau, 1939-1945.University of Nebraska Press, 1989
  • "Human Rights in the Administration of Criminal Justice" New York, 1994
  • "Ethnic Cleansing: Applicable Norms, Emerging Jurisprudence, Implementable Remedies" in John Carey (ed.) International Humanitarian Law: Origins, New York 2003

Make him an authority on matters dealing with this part of the world and this period of time.

2) Controversies : The wiki article states "While de Zayas' literary output and his international law and human rights publications are mainstream, his peace activism and his publications on Germany have rendered him somewhat controversial." Nothing here about controversy regarding his scholarship.The controversy was regarding the fact that he questioned the legality of the expulsion of 15 million Germans from their homelands after World War II.

His second book, The Wehrmacht War Crimes Bureau (University of Nebraska Press) investigated alleged Allied war crimes, including the murder of Ukrainians in Lviv by the NKVD 1941. De Zayas was the first researcher to see and evaluate the 226 volumes of extant records of the Wehrmacht-Untersuchungsstelle, which had been classified documents in the United States and had just been returned by the US National Archives to the German Bundesarchiv. The book was savagely attacked in the media of the Soviet Union and its satellites. - This could be expected. Nether-the-less it has been well received in the academic community, are used in colleges and universities, and remain in print thirty years after their initial publication, in the 14th and 7th revised and updated editions, respectively. Arnold Krammer in The Journal of Soviet Military Studies reviewed in - "The Wehrmacht War Crimes Bureau, 1939-1495 is a fascinating book. It is well-organized and elegantly written ... a sobering new look at the Second World War and ourselves .. With the appearance of this new book ... our innocence comes to an official end."

3) With regard to sources I have a recently published book on Shukhevych. I also can get the Mirchuk book this weekend and put in all the references, page numbers etc, however you will have to give me a few days. Bandurist 01:54, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

You keep ignoring the most critical problem here, namely that you are misrepresenting Zayas who never mentioned Nachtigall in relation to the massacres of Jews. For this reason, the question of Zayas reliability is moot. Beit Or 15:46, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

I only briefly browsed the discussion here, but I for whoever said "I feel that Wikipedia is a reliable source", we must realise that Wikipedia is indeed not a reliable source, and it certainly is not a publisher of original thought. Likewise, a mirror of Wikipedia is not a reliable source. Cheers, TewfikTalk 19:18, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Re quotations

"Interview 24. Raul Hilberg, in his exhaustive study "The Destruction of the European Jews" (Chicago: Quadrangle Books, 1961), p. 330, shows that Ukrainians were involved in violence against Jews in Galicia (see also p. 173 below). It is probable that some Ukrainians assisted the Germans in the massacres of Jews in L'vov soon after the outbreak of the war. Recently, Polish writers have described "eyewiteness accounts" of "Nachtigall" members' participation in these attrocities (Aleksander Drozdznski and Jan Zaborowski, Oberlander: A Study in German East Policies [Poznan: Wydawnictwo Zachodnie, 1960]).

The Polish book of 1960 is not a credible source. In the 1960 the Lviv case gained renewed attention in the fall of 1959 when the Soviet press mounted a major disinformation campaign against a minister in the West German Adenauer cabinet, Theodor Oberländer, accusing him of participating in the SS murders there. It started on 5 September 1959 when "Radianska Ukraina" wrote: "Eighteen years ago the fascists committed a horrendous crime in Lviv in the night of 29 - 30 June 1941. The Hitlerites arrested on the basis of prepared lists hundreds of Communists, Communist youth, and non-party members and murdered them in brutal fashion in the courtyard of the Samarstinov Prison." These accusations were picked up by the Western press and eventually led to Oberländer's resignation. The investigation by the district attorney's office in Bonn, however, completely cleared him. http://alfreddezayas.com/Chapbooks/Lembergmassacre.shtml

```` —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bandurist (talk • contribs) 02:11, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Shukhevych

A lot of people that I know of, including myself have searched for this article, and not found any results, because we typed the name through an i instead of y. I think there should be some redirection, from Shukhevich to Shukhevych. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mona23653 (talk • contribs) 00:59, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] reverts

The article now has the Yosef Lapid quote, the yushchenko quote, the information about the Holocaust Encyclopedia, and the Zayas part and the part from Taddeusz Piotrowski's book. What is the issue and why all the reverts? Ostap 06:08, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Bandurist and IP, please use this page rather than revert, that can get you blocked. I tried to add in everything that was cited from both POVs. This section is getting very long, and probably belongs in the Nachtigall article anyway. Perhaps it should be broken into its own article? Ostap 00:42, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
It is topical. I would prefer to discuss things on the talk page, however ...IP is not even registered.... Bandurist (talk) 01:28, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Picture of Roman Shukhevych and Germans?

I own a couple of pictures [5] showing two prominent Ukrainians during some kind of official greeting of Germans taken somewhere in Western Ukraine in 1941. One of the Ukrainians looks like Roman Shukhevych. Can anyone confirm it's really him? And who is the older man next by him? Could it be Konstantyn Levytsky? Narking (talk) 21:00, 11 March 2008 (UTC)


[edit] Nachtigall video

Interesting video about Shukhevych and Nachtigall on U-tube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Q0NFUGhN0U Bandurist (talk) 04:15, 7 April 2008 (UTC)