Talk:Roman Catholicism in Thailand

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Thailand To-do: edit purge Create more articles and expand existing articles in Category:Cities, towns and villages in Thailand Fix and add data for article Vehicle registration plates of Thailand (and why license plate of Amphoe Betong is available)

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I am searching the geographical extent of the dioceses. Catholic-hierachy gives the population and area, but not which provinces are covered. So far I could only find:

• Surat Thani: Chumphon, Krabi, Nakhon Si Thammarat, Narathiwat, Pattani, Phang Nga, Phattalung, Phuket, Prachuap Khiri Khan, Ranong, Satun, Songkhla, Surat Thani, Trang, Yala
• Chantaburi: Chachoengsao, Chanthaburi, Chonburi, Nakhon Nayok, Rayong, Prachinburi, Srakaeo, Trat

As long as the dioceses borders coincide with the provincial borders it may be possible to guess from the above numbers which provinces may belong to it, but I prefer a more reliable source. andy 11:59, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I found the map I searched at http://www.aidscatholic.com/thaimap.html - strangely google didn't index that site, but in yahoo it was the third hit. Google doesn't rule anymore... andy 11:02, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Well, nearly - the detail maps contradict a bit, in the detail maps the provinces Nakhon Nayok and Chachoengsao are added to both Bangkok and Chanthaburi. andy 18:49, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)

At least the boundary between Bangkok and Chanthaburi does not follow the provincial boundaries, but instead the course of rivers - most likely the Nakhon Nayok River and Bang Pa Kong River. andy 21:32, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)

http://thaicath.net/EDioceses.php says it's part of Chachoengsao and Amphoe Banna of Nakhon Nayok. andy 11:41, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

And now there's finally a logical explanation of why Ban Na belongs to Bangkok, while the rest of Nakhon Nayok to Chanthaburi. At the time of the creation of the Apostolic Vicariate Chanthaburi the province Nakhon Nayok was split - most part belonged to Prachinburi while Ban Na belonged to Saraburi. As Prachinburi was added to the new vicariate, Ban Na stayed with Bangkok, even after Nakhon Nayok was reestablished. Later Saraburi became part of the vicariate Nakhon Sawan, and only Ban Na remained. andy 12:12, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Martyrs of Thailand

As there's no page for the Martyrs of Thailand yet, I'm putting this here. I have a number of images from the Our Lady of the Martyrs of Thailand Shrine (สักการสถาน พระมารดาแห่งมรณสักขี ประเทศไทย) in Mukdahan. At the shrine there is a series of 14 carved stone panels hanging on the outer wall of the shrine, depicting the story of the martyrs. Would there be interest in my uploading these panels, and if so, does anyone have the idea of what the copyright status would be? An artist's name and date (and location?) is present on each of the panels: Ritthirong Samutprakarn 2002 (not sure if Samutprakarn is given here as surname or the artist's location), but I can't find any information about him. I took a picture of each panel individually, so they're quite high resolution in their original format.

As the author of the photographs, I have uploaded one picture, to illustrate my point and ask your opinions. However, obviously the work depicted in the photograph is not mine. Any advice/response is most welcome. rikker04 04:37, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

IANAL. As far as I know the rules, if these plates are in public you are free to take a photo of the whole site. However if you'd take the single plates, it is like a reproduction (similar to making a scan of a book cover) and then it would be a copyright violation. There are even such crazy things like the Eiffel tower at night cannot be reproduced because the one who built the lighting copyrighted that one. The best place to ask for comments would be the Village Pump at Commons, which would anyway be the best place to upload free pictures to make them available in all Wikimedia projects in all languages. andy 11:14, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

PawYiLee. Next time I'm up there, I'll ask about pictures of the panels. Note the north wall has The Stations of the Cross in gold, echoed on the south with plain panels telling the story of the martyrs. See http://www.catholichomepage.com/church_in_thailand.htm for a picture of the church's interior. Another version of the story is at http://www.sspxasia.com/Newsletters/2002/Oct-Dec/Seven_Blessed_Martyrs_of_Thailand.htm

but is in error stating that SONGKHON is the only catholic village in Thailand. There is one 40 klicks north of Yasothorn hosting the Church of Archangel Michael, claimed to be the largest wooden church in Thailand, and a designated "UNseen -in Thailand" tourist site.Lee 08:00, 15 September 2006 (UTC)PawYiLee

PS see also http://thehands.org/martyrs.htm Lee 08:07, 15 September 2006 (UTC)PawYiLee

The page for Martyrs of Thailand is started. So the above discussion should be used in that Article.Ans-mo 06:34, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Wikipedia:Catholic Encyclopedia topics

Much of this article appears to be taken from the Catholic Encyclopedia. It might be useful to refer to Wikipedia:Catholic Encyclopedia topics. In particular,

While the text is public domain PLEASE do not simply dump text from the CE into Wikipedia without modification. The Encyclopedia was written to serve the Catholic Church and reflect its doctrine, therefore nearly every article has a distinct POV and no article should be included word for word. Format the text according to the Wikipedia Manual of Style. Update any spelling anomalies. Rephrase any awkward-sounding prose to improve clarity and flow. Remove 19th century references unless they really move the text along. Update the articles with new information. Any text describing the "current situation" as of 1908 or 1913 should be revised as necessary.

I have now removed twice text that describes the "current situation" as of 1911. Please do not re-insert it.

--Richard 06:44, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

What was the problem in text about 1911 situation with Catholics in Thailand? Why is it necessary to remove facts and figures in passage on certain historical period? The opinion of Catholic Encyclopedia is the most reliable source in presenting the articles on Catholic Church. Removing the last passage with figures and facts seems to be like POV and prejudice. There are no other sources of information on Catholic articles, than Catholic Encyclopedia.Ans-mo 06:29, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

And the passage did not describe the situation of 1911 as current. Here as it was:

By 1911, there were 23,000 Catholics, 42 European and 13 native priests, 38 catechists, 50 central stations, 55 churches and chapels, 12 Brothers of St. Gabriel, 103 sisters (Holy Infant Jesus, St. Paul of Chartres, Lovers of the Cross), 50 elementary schools with over 3000 pupils, 15 orphanages with 314 inmates, 3 agricultural schools, 1 seminary with 62 students, 1 college with 400 boys, and a pensionnat with 220 girls.^[1]

And what is the value of providing 1911 data? --Richard 07:08, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Why not to provide such data describing the history of Roman Catholic Church in Thailand of certain period? It does not seem to violate any rule of Wikipedia.Ans-mo 07:23, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

1. It's too much detail.
2. It's data for an arbitrary point in time for which there is no corresponding watershed event.

The relevant Wikipedia rule here would be "Use common sense." The application of the rule would run like this "What conceivable scenario can you hypothesize in which this information would be of use to the reader?"

--Richard 07:28, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

As for arbitrary point in time, I would say, that 1910 - 1913 presented the time before the beginning of huge and dramatic changes in world history, which also influenced the Catholic Church.

True, but could you make a case that this particular period of time represented the beginning of "huge and dramatic changes" in the history of Thailand or the history of Roman Catholicism in Thailand? If so, this case is not made in the article. --Richard 17:01, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

As for the point, that such information is of no use, it is not more and not less of use than any other information in the article and in the majority of other article in Wikipedia.Ans-mo 07:42, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

No, I disagree. It is of very little use except as a way of illustrating the dramatic increase in the number of Catholics in Thailand during the 20th century which the article now shows. However, the next step is to provide a better explanation of how this has come about. A century is a long time. Did the increase come before or after the Second World War? Is it a result of Westernization after the Second World War or events prior to WWII? The increase is certainly not through natural population growth. Is it from proselytization or immigration? --Richard 17:01, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

The passage also presents information about Catholic orders of certain time in Thailand.Ans-mo 07:45, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

This is excessive detail and distracting to the reader. Just because information is available and can be referenced does not mean that it should be included. An article tells a story. Our goal is to communicate information to the reader. Sometimes, "less is more". --Richard 17:01, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Deleting mentioning of catholic orders in the article on Roman Catholic Church without ground expalanation lookes like clear prejudiced POV. Why the present in Thailand monastic orders should not be mentioned in the related to the theme article? It is violation of neutrality principle.Ans-mo 07:53, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

It has nothing to do with neutrality. The long list is distracting and degrades readability. --Richard 08:21, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

OK. I agree with the last editing and making separate section on congregations. Regards.Ans-mo 08:35, 11 July 2007 (UTC)