Talk:Roman Catholicism in Lithuania

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Lithuanians know the best which language is being used in the cathedral. Now I should prove I'm not a camel - no, thank you.Xx236 11:24, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

It's about edit [1], right? It is definitly easy to confirm that all masses in this Cathedral are in Lithuanian ([2]: "Pamaldos vyksta tik lietuvių kalba" - "Masses in Lithuanian only"; "Pamaldos vyksta tik lenkų kalba" - "Masses in Polish only"; "lt." - "in Lithuanian"; "lk." - "in Polish"; "rus." - "in Russian"; "angl." - "in English"; "ukr." - "in Ukrainian"). However, by itself it doesn't prove that masses in Polish aren't allowed (for example, maybe no one asked?). Now, if you will provide a source that proves this, it will probably be much easier to write the section in a neutral way by noting the explanations of both sides. And, by the way, since section "National problem" seems to apply only to Vilnius, maybe we should move it to some other article? "Archdiocese of Vilnius", perhaps? --Martynas Patasius 16:26, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for your cooperation.

  • I wanted to edit the Archdiocese of Vilnius, but the article contains mostly historical data from Catholic Encyclopedia of 1913. If you would add some more recent data there, it would be the right place.

The church server uses only Lithuanian language http://www.katalikai.lt/, which fully confirms the existence of problems. Summary and Przegląd pages don't exist.

Here are some Polish minority opinions, unfortunately only in Polish:

Xx236 11:36, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

These minority opinions are often exagerated, and these statistics provided by the someone, who's not NPOV as it is quite clear form the title are not reliable, and allegedly - is not a fact. You should seek official statistics not some webpage (what is this now@ anyway, and how reliable is it?). I know that some nationalist and right wing "activists" do not really know (or do not want to accept) the real situation here, and are playing with readers emotions. I do especially like opinions like this "Z katedry wileńskiej, która do 1991 roku niewiele miała wspólnego z narodem litewskim, uczyniono litewską świątynię narodową, i w związku z tym nie mogą być w niej odprawiane polskie msze." - quite a nonsense, if you'd ask me, with flavour of right wing ignorance.
Second thing - in my opinion this minority issue part should really go to Archidiocese of Vilnus, because it is not "National" (or rather national minority) but regional issue, and it does not belong in the main article on Lithuanian Roman Catholic Church.
The Bishops issue is not a problem, unless Holy See, which does assign Bishops, will see it as a problem. church has it's own rules.
I did remove claims about Polish language Mass because can't see any reasoning behind it - There are no Polish Masses in Paris, nor Lithuanian in Warsaw cathedral, despite national minorities. According to this there is 18 percent people (104 thousand), who did declare themselves as "Polish" in Vilnius, and 318 thousand Lithuanians (57 percent). Sadly official statistic departament page isn't available for me at the moment neither with old, neither with new address Regards.--Lokyz --Lokyz 11:39, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Lokyz, would you please write the Archdiocese of Vilnius article before you move there something? The article contains 1913 data. It's interesting that you tend to edit articles you don't like instead to inform the world about Lithuania, like eg. about the Archdiocese of Vilnius.
  • Your opinion about Polish masses in the cathedral is your opinion, this Wikipedia isn't the right place for your speculations or removing texts you don't like. The facts are - some people want Polish masses in the cathedral and the exclusively Lithuanian leadersdhip of the Lithuanian church refuses it. I don't say who is right in this conflict, but the problem exists. 18% is 31% of 57%, which is an important minority. You use numbers of inhabitants, but you should use rather the numbers of believers and conservative Vilnius Poles are more religious than Lithuanians (or Poles from Warsaw).
  • The Bishops issue is not a problem - again it's your opinion. Cultural and language differences are important and can lesd to a split, like Polish National Catholic Church. Fortunately Alfons Nossol can be a bishop in Poland.

Xx236 14:05, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

First of all let me remind you WP:CIVIL - all your arguments ad hominem are against Wikipedia policy, so I think you owe me an apology.
About cathedral - Wikipedia is encyclopedia, and not a place to spread biased POV (a I've shown, that even numbers in this article are quite wrong and 18 isn't 51, as some people try to think - and people do have a Church with Polish language service). Therefore i do and in the future will remove any biased o revanchist "information". The text of Archdiocese of Vilnius isn't a sacred untoucable cow, and you could really help Wikipedia expanding it, instead of spreading pourly sourced propaganda, that does not even bother to check population numbers. As for what some people wan - I'm absolutely sure that certain number of Germans wants to have German Mass in Warsaw cathedral, and certain people want, that Lithuanians would become Poles - but they do not get it.
About Bishops - please, would you care to cite any document that forbids for a Pole to become bishop in Lithuania? Or all your knowledge is based on some webpage opinion? Let me once again remind you, that bishops aren't assigned by local clergy, bishops are assigned DIRECTLY by a Pope, despite what some nationalistic newspaper thinks about it. And Alfons Nossol was assigned by Pope, not Polish clergy. Have a good day--Lokyz 19:34, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Would you please quote facts and sources rather your opinions about me and my (censored by you) contributions? I find the majority of your arguments in this thread unfair. You invent things, don't quote sources, make false analogies to misinform foreigners.

  • Here are demographic data about Lithuania, you aren't able to find [3].
  • You pretend you don't know how bishops are nominated. Local bishops prepare the list of candidates.
  • I'm absolutely sure you don't have any sources to prove that Germans wants to have German Mass in Warsaw cathedral, because you would have quoted them. It happens that Germans in Poland live in Opole diocese, 300 km from Warsaw. So the analogy would be that the Vilnius Poles want masses in Kaunas, which they don't. They want their rights in their diocese.
  • I'm not able to write an article about the Vilnius Archidiocese, because the majority of sources is in Lithuanian. Do your job of editing articles about Lithuania rather than censoring informations about minorities. It's typical, that no Lithuanian editor contributed to Kaunas pogrom and you criticise letters I have used.

Xx236 08:45, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

My dear XX you once again violated WP:Civil and insulted me using phrases like "pretend not to know" or commanding me what to do. If you'll continue this way, you'll be blocked by administrators. And once again I request an appology for your insults, and untill you'll do it and learn to behave yourself, I do not intend to waste my time to read your rude allegations.
Second thing - there is plethora of accademic surces in English, German and Polish about Archdiocese of Vilnius - if you'd be more conserned about findig them in a library, than insulting other editors with your allegations, you'd find a lot of interesting material. And I suggest you to read Wikipedia:Manual of Style, as you seem to make common mistakes in formatting text. Cheers.--Lokyz 17:53, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 26% of Vilnius county population

The majority of Russians, Belorussians, Ukrainians, Jews and Tatars doesn't belong to the RC, so the Poles constitue more than 30%.Xx236 15:05, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

I just did the math and 216012 out of ~710000 is 30% indeed 827,161 is 26% (I was adding a wrong row before).-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  16:54, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Paltanavičiūtė G. The Problem of Research of Religious Tensions in the Social Field.The Geographical Yearbook XXXVIII(2), 2005.

[edit] All Lithuanian bishops are ethnic Lithuanians

It's a fact. It's very simple to prove that I'm not right - to quote the name of one non-Lithuanian bishop in Lithuania. Another way to solve many problesm is to write basic articles about RC church in Lithuania using http://www.katalikai.lt/.

  • The archbishop of Vilnius Audrys Cardinal Bačkis was born in Kaunas.
  • Juozas Tunaitis was born in Davainiškis, parish Salos (North East of Lithuania).
  • Eugenijus Bartulis, Kaunas
  • Jonas Boruta, Kaunas
  • Rimantas Norvila, Kauno rajone
  • Antanas Vaičius, Geidučiuose
  • Juozas Žemaitis, Sparviniuose, Griškabūdžio parap.

So they are not only ethnic Lithuanians. They are born outside the Vilnius region. It's classical colonization. Xx236 08:10, 14 August 2007 (UTC)