Talk:Roma people

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This page has been cited as a source by a media organization. The citation is in: Jeff Mores. "Life as a gypsy: A Bentonville pagan sorts through stereotypes.", Benton County Daily Record, August 1, 2007. (details)

This article is within the scope of multiple WikiProjects. Click [show] for further details

Roma people is part of the WikiProject Romani people, an attempt to build a comprehensive guide to the Romani people on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit this article, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion. Start This article has not been rated as Start-Class on the Project's quality scale. See comments Top This article has been rated as top-importance on the importance scale. This article is within the scope of WikiProject India, which aims to improve Wikipedia's coverage of India-related topics. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page. B This article has been rated as B-Class on the quality scale. (see comments) More information about this article... ??? This article has not yet received a rating on the importance scale. This article is part of WikiProject Pakistan which aims to improve Wikipedia's coverage of Pakistan and Pakistan-related topics. For guidelines see WikiProject Pakistan and Wikipedia:Contributing FAQ. ??? This article has not yet received a rating on the quality scale. Please rate the article and then leave a short summary here to explain the ratings and/or to identify the strengths and weaknesses of the article. ??? This article has not yet received a rating on the importance scale. Comments edit A high B-class article, mainly because of the cleanup tag on the article as a whole as well as on the "Genetics" section. There are also many {{Fact}} tags. Needs improvement in its lead to be a summary of the entire article. And the bulleted list in the "Population" section should have its red links evaluated: can stubs be written for them? If not, dewikify them. -Fsotrain09 04:35, 13 November 2006 (UTC) I disagree; I think it's only a Start-class article, not even low B-class. At this point, it's far too inaccurate to get a B-class rating. Even the title is questionable, since not all Romanies (especially in Western Europe) call themselves "Roma" but do identify themselves as "Romani." (Also, no consensus was reached before moving "Romani people" to "Roma people"). No, right now, this article is in a very sorry state, and most of the edits lately have been just reverting vandalism. --Kuaichik (talk) 15:52, 30 May 2008 (UTC) Oh, wait a minute. I forgot to notice when you wrote that comment. Yes, at that time, this probably was a high B-class article, but it has degenerated from there lately :( --Kuaichik (talk) 01:58, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

	This article falls within the scope of WikiProject Ethnic groups, a WikiProject interested in improving the encyclopaedic coverage and content of articles relating to ethnic groups, nationalities, and other cultural identities. If you would like to help out, you are welcome to drop by the project page and/or leave a query at the project's talk page.
NB: Assessment ratings and other indicators given below are used by the Project in prioritizing and managing its workload.
B	This article has been rated as B-Class on the Project's quality scale.
Top	This article has been rated as top-importance on the Project's importance scale.
	After rating the article, please provide a short summary on the article's ratings summary page to explain your ratings and/or identify the strengths and weaknesses.
WikiProject Ethnic groups open tasks: Here are some open WikiProject Ethnic Groups tasks: Meta-tasks: Place the {{Ethnic groups}} template on the talk page of articles within the scope of this project. Articles about ethnic groups that currently have issues needing resolution: Category:Unassessed Ethnic groups articles Category:Ethnic groups articles needing merge action Category:Ethnic groups articles needing infoboxes Category:Ethnic groups articles needing reassessment Category:Ethnic groups articles needing attention Iyer Peruvian people Start an article: Wikipedia:WikiProject Ethnic groups/Article requests Feel free to edit this list or discuss these tasks.

	Kosovo Portal Roma people is part of the WikiProject Kosovo, an attempt to build a comprehensive guide to Kosovo on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit this article, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion. If you are new to editing Wikipedia visit the welcome page so as to become familier with the guidelines. If you would like to participate, please join the project and help with our open tasks.
B	This article has been rated as B-Class on the Project's quality scale. See comments
???	This article has not yet received a rating on the importance scale.

To-do list for Roma people:

edit · history · watch · refresh

add IPA pronunciation for "Roma" at start of article summarize peer review into tasks for to do list compile population records by country Article in really poor condition, needs copyediting, needs a lot of work on citing sources as topic is controversial. There are (probably) no Roma nationals on Wikipedia so this article would benefit from collaboration of people skilled in googleing info out. Let's help Roma people get good and NPOVed encyclopedia entry. --Dijxtra 11:31, 29 December 2005 (UTC) There are Roma users here. E.g., Desiphral. Dpotop (talk) 15:40, 13 March 2008 (UTC) I've been tinkering with it; mainly cleaning up style and removing unverifiable factoids. I took out the copyedit tag as well; please put it back if you feel it is still merited. Guinnog New articles on History of the Roma people and Roma society and culture have been created, so its time to expand those articles (I've copied the original sections) and prune the main article down to a reasonable size. Wachholder0 00:59, 29 March 2006 (UTC) The Roma Dance section needs a lot of editing; I began editing the grammar and spelling (etc) but I found that I couldn't really understand what the first sentence meant, so I stopped. If anyone has information on that section and knows how to write without making too many errors (in their grammar, spelling, and so on), please do. There need to be more references to the other theories of where other Gypsy groups claim to be from, for example the Balkan Egyptians. The article seems too sure of the origin and history of the Roma, when it is in fact not completely verified and there are many theories. The above paragraph is incorrect, and the Rom have been definitively placed as having left India around 1,000 AD from a mixture of Punjabi and "Aryan" genetics. The sources on this are too many to list, but the O Vurdon website (http://www.vurdon.it/english.htm) lists several of them, as well as providing a migration map.69.29.222.62 03:42, 27 February 2007 (UTC) Expand lede section to be comprehensive article summary, per WP:LEAD.

[edit] Archives

For older discussion, see Talk:Roma people/Archive index

[edit] Ancient Gyptian City... Which?

צוענים Is isad to be the Hebrew word for Roma... But... Why? 'Cause, so it claims, it correspodns to a verb (whcih is shown there) and an Ancient Egyptian City... But which city? Gaza City? It aint even in Egypt, but who knows, it might have been within the Gyptian Empire...Undead Herle King (talk) 06:51, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] "Roma/Romani people" vs "Gypsies"

"Gypsies is more common than "both Roma and Rroma people" and according to Wikipedia policy, the title should be the most common version.

• "Roma people": 1000 hits
• "Romani people": 100 hits
• "Gypsies": 60.000 hits Rezistenta (talk) 16:28, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

That's not a complete comparison though. "Roma" would also return lots of hits, although we're then faced with the issue of the Italian name for Rome being the same. But the point stands that comparing "Roma people" to "Gypsies" isn't comparing like with like. Cordless Larry (talk) 16:01, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Which wikipedia policy? The imaginary one in your head, or this one? Here are three key points from that policy page (please take special note of the third one):

• Self identification: When naming or writing an article about specific people or specific groups always use the terminology which those individuals or organizations themselves use.
• Some terms are considered pejorative, or have negative associations, even if they are quite commonly used. Even though people may use these terms themselves, they may not appreciate being referred to by such terms by others (for example, faggot, nigger, tranny). Note that neutral terminology is not necessarily the most common term — a term that the person or their cultural group does not accept for themselves is not neutral even if it remains the most widely used term among outsiders.
• Roma is preferred over gypsy.

55% of Romanians (not Roma) consider that the term Roma is wrong and the corect term is Tsigan (Gypsy).—Preceding unsigned comment added by Nomád Terv (talk • contribs) 18:54, 17 May 2008 (UTC) --> --> --> --> --> -->

So, considering the actual wikipedia policy specifically contradicts your argument, please stop. - TheMightyQuill (talk) 18:28, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

1.Germans don't call themselves germans, but "Deutsche", Albanians don't call themselves albanians but "Shqiptarë" the jews don't call themselves jews but "Yehudim", hungarians don't call themselves hungarians but "Magyarok", thus the " the terminology in english wikipedia is that which is most used in the english language ".

2.Gypsy is by far the most used term in english language by both the media and the academic and encyclopedic sources and cannot be included in the same category with Faggot, Nigger, Tranny . The word gypsy is considered peiorative by only a very little minority of this ethnic group thus being in contradiction with the majority.

3.Roma cannot be preffered over gypsy for the very simple reason that Roma is a sub-group of the gypsies, this means not all gypsies are Roma.Rezistenta (talk) 19:13, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Regarding that second point of yours, where's your evidence for this? Sure, a lot of Roma do call themselves "gypsies", or don't mind that term, but it is definitely considered pejorative by a great many Roma. Otherwise, why would organizations like the Voice of Roma use that term, instead of calling themselves the Voice of the Gypsies? Sorry, the article already covers these issues with far greater care than you've shown here. +ILike2BeAnonymous (talk) 19:54, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

My evidences are the number of hits per name, the most used name in english language is Gypsy, if the term was peiorative I guess it wasn't used by the media and by the academic and encyclopedic sources. The term itself is not pejorative. For example, grade school buys routinely insult others by calling themselves gay, but that doesn't make "gay" as a term referring to homosexual men an insult among society at large, similarly for expressions such as "to jew someone down". Organisations like that which you mentioned earlier use Roma for the same reasons why it was introduced in the first place by noumerous organisations and foundations sponsored by one man,George Soros . You're sorry for what? for not knowing to explain the etymology of the termn, and trying to impose it over a historical and much more known and historical linked term? Rezistenta (talk) 20:13, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Rezistenta, Your Google test is not applicable as "Roma People" is "Roma" set with a necessary qualifier "people" (presumably to avoid references to Rome and some tomatoes) yet will not register genuine use of "Roma" or "Romani" which in most cases will appear without the qualifier. (and "Gypsies" alone may be full of hits from Sonny and Cher lyric pages?) "Roma" is the correct term as per Britannica which is more reliable in this context. István (talk) 20:59, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

This is not the appropriate place to debate a Wikipedia policy. - TheMightyQuill (talk) 19:17, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't debate any wikipedia policy, I read the articles and I follow the actual examples... Rezistenta (talk) 19:23, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

I really think it would be best if we stop fueling this debate any further. There are clear and specific wikipedia guidelines on this issue (Wikipedia:Naming conventions (identity)) so any further discussion seems to be a waste of time. Rezistenta, if you want to call in arbitration, you are more than welcome to do so. - TheMightyQuill (talk) 21:30, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Rezistenta is right. As long as the term "Gipsy" is more often use than the term "Roma" (or something like that), we shoult use the denomination "Gipsy" in order to handle according to Wikipedia rules without making exceptions. --Olahus (talk) 11:06, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Actually, the policy pointed by TheMightyQuill says that we should use here the name preferred by the given ethnic group. So, the dispute here should be about whether Roma prefer to be called Roma or Gypsy (in English, I mean). Of course, the article must mention that Gypsy is the main word, still, but that's another matter. So, do you have sources on how Roma/Gypsy prefer to be called? My favorite example are the Gypsy Kings, which obviously prefer to be called Gypsy. But artists may be an exception. Dpotop (talk) 11:48, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

No, that's only part of the issue. The other point from the policy is also important:

• Some terms are considered pejorative, or have negative associations, even if they are quite commonly used. Even though people may use these terms themselves, they may not appreciate being referred to by such terms by others (for example, faggot, nigger, tranny). Note that neutral terminology is not necessarily the most common term — a term that the person or their cultural group does not accept for themselves is not neutral even if it remains the most widely used term among outsiders.

So even if Gypsy was the most commonly used, because a significant number of people find it offensive, we are to go with the more neutral term, Roma. - TheMightyQuill (talk) 16:41, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

"Gypsy" is both neutral and common, so if you think that you are right you have to prove us that "Gypsy" is neither.AdrianCo (talk) 16:57, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Certainly you dont mean neither - a careful reading of the policy reveals that the most common name may be excluded in favor of a less common name if the most common name is considered pejorative. "Roma" is favored over "Gypsy" not on common use criteria but because "Gypsy" is considered pejorative (as per a.m. reliable source). AND...(can't let that rhetorical sleight of hand pass unnoticed) the burden of proof falls upon one advocating a change - i.e. not upon those who accept "Roma/Romani People" as the preferred name. István (talk) 17:17, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Well ok. We all agree that some people call "Gypsys"/"Romas" as Gypsys. So you say it`s pejorative. So how come it is us that should come with evidence when it is you that should have done this from the first place! I mean...the only "reference" was a webpage from geocities. I don`t find that a "reliable source"...do you?! AdrianCo (talk) 19:03, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

No, The MightyQuill is quoting Britannica, which says that "Many Roma find the word Gypsy pejorative" (beware, "many" is a weasel word). Dpotop (talk) 20:19, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

To AdrianCO: From my experience it's useless to discuss these issues. These "minority rights" guys are the same that imposed in the US the changes "negro->black->afro-american->african american". Of course the african-american minority remains discriminated, but the minority rights organizations justified their existence. Note they don't even care that these guys are calling themselves "Gypsy" or that this is the majority usage. And in the end, this entire discussion changes nothing: Just saying rom instead of gypsy won't change the prejudice against them. I suggest leaving them invent their new language. Dpotop (talk) 20:19, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

But from what I know Britanica isn`t a very good source...wasn`t wikipedia greater the it?! Furthermore they say "many" not "most". And third...it`s still a second hand source. AdrianCo (talk) 06:25, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

1) Britannica (despite its limitations) is as uncontroversially WP:RS today as it was in 1911; 2) "Many" in this context means it exists and is noteworthy, whereas "most" (a majority) is not required by WP:NCI; 3) Our sources are required to be "second-hand" i.e. external (surely you mean "second-hand" in a different context? What then is first-hand?) István (talk) 12:55, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Istvan, according to Encyclopedia Britannica, Aromanian, Megleno-Romanian and Istro-Romanian are dialects of the Romanian language. Though, in Wikipedia, in the title of article of those idioms, they are called "languages", not dialects: Aromanian language, Meglenoromanian language, Istroromanian language. As you can see, the opinion of E.Britannica is irrelevant for Wikipedia. So, therefore, I insist to handle in the case of this articles according to Wikipedia rules without making exceptions. The name of the article must be changed into Gypsies, because thes term ist not just elder, but also more often used in English.

And according to the "pejorative perception" of the term "gipsy" by some (or "many") members of this ethnic group, we must proove first that most of them do have this perception.

You see, dear Istvan, the Croatians are a catholic people who live in the western Balkan region, mostly in Croatia and Bosnia. The Croatians don't feel sentimentaly tied with the Balkans. They even perceive as pejorative to be denominated as "balkanians". But, because they live in the Balkans, they are Balkanians, weather they like or not to be called as it. --Olahus (talk) 15:16, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

To Istvan: 1) see Olahus`s comment 2)can you prove that there is a greater number that preferes "roma" as a translation?!...look: romanianas are called as "vlahs" in the Czech Republic as a "bad thing"(or Poland, don`t remeber quite well now); however the VAST majority of people from Walachia take pride in being called "vlahs", so there is no problem, I think it`s the same thing here....it`t not pejorative for us, so it`s not pejorative in english! 3)in this case I see first hand as a scholar reserch. AdrianCo (talk) 16:57, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

I tink, the article shold be renamed into Gypsies. They are rules in Wikipedia and we must respect them. I suppose in this case the point of the user Rezistenta. --Feierabend (talk) 13:21, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Let's move it then to Gypsies. Marc KJH (talk) 08:56, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Uhhh...no one seems to have noticed this, so I just thought I might point it out: Gypsy is a disambiguation page, and Gypsies is a redirect to that. --Kuaichik (talk) 16:41, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

An Administrator should redirect it. Marc KJH (talk) 17:06, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

As it can be seen in "Gypsies" disambiguation page, not all Gypsies are Roma, this page is about gypsies not only about Roma people Rezistenta (talk) 22:37, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

In most (english-language) contexts, the phrase 'Gyspsy' indicates a traveler, carnie, fortune-teller or nomad, not a member of a specific ethnic group. It is for that reason that the page Gypsy disambiguates to multiple pages and (aside from political correctness) why we use 'Roma' instead of 'Gypsy' for this article. I oppose a move on all grounds. The Myotis (talk) 02:01, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

You're wrong. "Gypsy has a racial definition - for a people originating in north-west India who left in the first millennium AD, mainly heading north and west and spreading to most parts of Europe by the 16th century." BBC NEWS UK You oppose to something based on a mistaken belief thus your opposing arguments are not available Rezistenta (talk) 10:00, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

So...how and when do we move it?AdrianCo (talk) 12:36, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

This way: Wikipedia:Requested moves One should make a request. Marc KJH (talk) 15:27, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

The point isn't that it has a ethnic definition as in that most people do not use it that way. If anything, that article supports my view (e. g. Gypsy, when spoken, does not refer to a specific ethnic group) and so the argument that common name should be the article name is largely nulled, being that the common name is so indiscriminately assigned. Also, it is a bad idea to requests a move without consensus, unless it is your goal to irritate the mods.The Myotis (talk) 06:25, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

The Gypsies invented this words like Roma and others to create an confusion with Romanians that are latins and came from Daco-Romans and have nothing to do with nomad gypsies —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.140.17.97 (talk • contribs) 23:20, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move: Roma people -> Gypsies

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was No Move. Húsönd 20:36, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion

As per above. Marc KJH (talk) 15:30, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, I don't agree with this. Groups representing Roma people, such as the European Roma Rights Centre, use "Roma" rather than "Gypsy". Furthermore, some consider "Gypsy" to be offensive. Roma is used by the BBC, the IHT, New York Times, Encarta, Encyclopædia Britannica, the UN, etc. Cordless Larry (talk) 16:27, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

We already talked about this, if you repeat the same thing over and over again it does't make it more reliable, the arguments presented in favour of moving Roma to Gypsy are much more supported by the facts Rezistenta (talk) 16:38, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

If you're referring to your Google search, you're not comparing like with like. See my comments above. Cordless Larry (talk) 16:47, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

BBC tells them gypsy not Roma Here Rezistenta (talk) 16:40, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

The BBC tend to use "Gypsy" when referring to travellers in the UK, and "Roma" for the ethnic group. Search for Roma on their website and you'll see. Cordless Larry (talk) 16:47, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Read the article, don't throw words in vain . Quote : " Gypsy has a racial definition - for a people originating in north-west India who left in the first millennium AD, mainly heading north and west and spreading to most parts of Europe by the 16th century."

read the discussion upper in the page, this aspects were already discussed Rezistenta (talk) 16:50, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

I have read it. It may have a racial meaning, but that does not mean that it is the preferred term, nor does it mean it is exclusively used to refer to Roma people. You may want to take a look at this book. Cordless Larry (talk) 16:55, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

The people already decided to move it. Marc KJH (talk) 16:54, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Who are "the people", and on what basis have they decided? Cordless Larry (talk) 16:56, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

I suppose you're not on that list. Wikipedia is not a democracy. The majority decides. Marc KJH (talk) 16:59, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

I could also recommend you a few books to read but still this aspects were already discussed upper in the page, come with something new if you wish to continue this debate. Rezistenta (talk) 16:59, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

I've read the section above and I don't find any convincing reasons for a move. Do you have anything to support your case other than the flawed Google comparison? Cordless Larry (talk) 17:02, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

I think you're not willing to accept the reasons. There are 4 archives to be read. You haven't so far read them. Spend some times reading them again and again. This article will be moved, despite you're against it. Marc KJH (talk) 17:05, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

There are many reasons for moving this article, I will make a short summary for you :

1. This article is about Gypsies, not about Roma, not all gypsies (e.g. from Eastern Europe) are Roma

2. The term Roma has no historical affiliations with this ethnic group (as can be seen in etymology section There are no historical proofs to clarify the etymology of these words, they were known untill the late 90 by the term "gypsies" the whole world knows them by this term,

3. This term creeates confusion with other ethnic group with a similar name which in contrast with gypsies are historical linked with the term Rezistenta (talk) 17:10, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. My reponse to point 1 would be that we should instead make this article about Roma people and move anything about other groups to the relevant articles. On point 2, I don't think we should be naming articles based on what the term used in the late 1990s was, but rather on what the term used today is. On point 3, isn't this what Template:Otheruses templates are for? Cordless Larry (talk) 17:16, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

1.I'm sorry but you're responses are inconclusive, according to the content, this article it's about Gypsies not about Roma. If you wish to make an article specisely about Roma you are more then welcomed.

2. As shown above, gypsy is still the more spreaded ethnonim for this ethnic group

3. Why using a term with no historical affiliations to this ethnic group and replace a correct and more spreaded one  ? Rezistenta (talk)

Just to focus on point 2 for a moment, what's the evidence that Gypsy is the more frequently used term? Cordless Larry (talk) 17:31, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Number of hits per name and the mentioning of such phrases like e.g. (Roma commonly known as Gypsies) in very popular encylopedias, The name Roma asignated to gypsies rarely comes without the much more spreaded and alternative name, "gypsy" Rezistenta (talk) 17:41, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

OK, well as I've already stated several times I think your Google comparison is flawed. I'm not arguing against noting that the Roma are often referred to as Gyspies, but surely articles that state that Roma are commonly known as Gypsies do so because they use Roma as the title? Anyway, I sense that this discussion is going nowhere, so why don't we just have a simple vote? Cordless Larry (talk) 17:47, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Not only that this page shouldn't be called Gypsies, but it should be returned to the previous name of "Romani People" because this page is about the Romani People.

1. This page should not be called Gypsies because the term gypsy refer to various nomadic people, not only of Indian origin; and when it comes to those of Indian origin, it is also used for the Dom and Lom (Posha) ethnic groups that are distinct from Romani.

2. This page should not be called Roma People because Roma are just a branch of the Romani People, the largest, but nevertheless not all Romanies are Roma.

Not only that these forever tryings to hide the Romani People term are ridiculous, but they are also against the Wikipedia policy. I'm not even voting here for the reasons above. AKoan (talk) 09:14, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Survey

ATTENTION! If you came here because someone asked you to, or you read a message on a forum, please note that this is not a majority vote, but rather a discussion to establish a consensus among Wikipedia editors on whether a page is suitable for this encyclopedia. Wikipedia has policies and guidelines to help us decide this, and deletion decisions are made on the merits of the arguments, not by counting votes. Nonetheless, you are welcome to participate and express your opinions. Remember to assume good faith on the part of others and to sign your posts on this page by adding ~~~~ at the end. Note: Comments by suspected single-purpose accounts can be tagged using {{subst:spa|username}}

• Oppose move per Wikipedia:Naming conventions (identity). Cordless Larry (talk) 17:54, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

• Agree move Marc KJH (talk) 17:55, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

• Strongly agree as shown in all 4 archives full of debates regarding this aspect Rezistenta (talk) 18:00, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

• Agree move ...as discussed above. AdrianCo (talk) 18:36, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

• This is totally absurd. However, since you're putting up this phony "vote", my vote is: Strongly oppose. "Gypsy" is not and will never be an encyclopedic term for this article. Apparently it's the same small group who're trying to push this through. Feh. +ILike2BeAnonymous (talk) 18:48, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

  Sorry that you think the vote is phoney. As you can see, I oppose the move too but thought a vote was necessary to show that it is widely opposed. Cordless Larry (talk) 19:36, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

  (ec)Mind holding your tongue, Mr. Anonymous? We would be all grateful. Your anger is more likely more productively used in trying to write serious argumentations, rather than attack those who disagree with you - that I can guarantee from my experience. Good luck, but please, avoid making such unhelpful remarks in the future, ok? ;-) Snowolf ^{How can I help?} 19:03, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

• Comment Would people please see WP:NOTVOTE? In any case, I too would strongly oppose a move per user:Cordless Larry. // Chris ^{(complaints)•(contribs)} 19:03, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

  Comment Is there anything left to discuss?AdrianCo (talk) 19:13, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

  No, I don't believe so. The move, basically, ain't gonna happen. Let's move on, shall we? +ILike2BeAnonymous (talk) 19:18, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

  No, that`s why we are voting.AdrianCo (talk) 20:00, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

• Opposed to this BIG PANDORA'S BOX for two reasons: 1. Not only is "Gypsy" OFFENSIVE to some, breaking WP:NCI, but also 2. "Gypsy" in common English usage, has a much broader scope of reference than the subject ethnic group, and any article named "Gypsies" must then also include references to travellers, nomadics, etc, AND separately those who have adopted a certain lifestyle or fashion (and good luck defining that lifestyle and fashion, btw). This page already struggles to define its own encyclopaedic boundaries - renaming it "Gypsy" would be both unencyclopaedic and chaotic. István (talk) 20:41, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose For the same reasons that Istvan stated. Asarelah (talk) 21:03, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

• Agree move In favor after reading discussion above. StereoDevil (talk) 21:05, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

• Comment - Voting is evil. We don't make editorial decisions based on "majority rules". We make decisions based on a consensus interpretation of our core content policies. In this case, consensus is not entirely clear, and this "vote" is far too small of a sample to be at all meaningful. For an important titling question such as this, larger community participation is required. This discussion should be advertised at a village pump, and I'm leaving a note at WT:NCI

  Additionally, we're dealing with a question more nuanced than Move vs. Don't Move. The scope of the article is called into question in this discussion - should the article be about the Roma people exclusively, or about the various peoples who have been called Gypsies?

  Perhaps the best solution is a combination of the two: one article on the Roma people, similar to our articles on other ethnic groups, and one article on Gypsies, which describes the history of the term, and explains how it has been applied historically to the Roma people as well as to others. The latter article could also deal with the more recent controversy in which the term is seen as offensive. -GTBacchus^(talk) 21:53, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

• Agree move, in order to resepct the rules of this encyclopedia. --Olahus (talk) 21:40, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose Gypsy can refer to Roma people, it can also refer to travellers in general. I am also uneasy with 'visability' being used to justify a move. We don't need to whore ourselves to search engine mechanics. Gypsy on its own would likely need a brackets disambiguator, current title does not and appears to conform to some of the guidelines. Narson (talk) 22:14, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose. Even if no one found the term "gypsy" offensive, it's still a rather slangy and colloquial term unsuitable for describing this particular ethnic group. K. Lásztocska^talk 22:42, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

• Comment - now it's been moved to Roma people (gypsies) without any discussion. Very helpful! Cordless Larry (talk) 23:04, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Why was this article moved in the middle of the discussion? // Chris ^{(complaints)•(contribs)} 23:40, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

No idea but thanks to User:Lucasbfr it's now back. Cordless Larry (talk) 23:44, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

• Support moving to something else than Roma people Seriously, how are the people from the city of Rome (considering in all latin languages the name of the city is Roma) supposed to be called then? I Believe that having what is decided the most-pollitically-correct and in paranthesis the best known version is by far the most productive. It is INFORMATIVE and does not offend either the group of people it describes (i.e. introduce name of the article here), nor the people that might be confused with (introduce name of the article here). Nergaal (talk) 23:13, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

  That's a perfectly valid suggestion, but moving the page without discussing it first wasn't helpful. It now can't be moved back because there is a redirect in its place. Cordless Larry (talk) 23:21, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

  Um... "Roma" and "Roman" (the English adjective for someone from Rome) are not the same word. In my experience these people are called "Roma" or "Gypsy", depending who's talking or where I'm reading. I've never been confused about "Roma" versus "Roman". -GTBacchus^(talk) 23:43, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

• Strong (see below) oppose. According to Wikipedia:Naming conventions (identity)#Ethnic and national identities Roma is preferred over gypsy when referring to the ethnic group, although the terms are not always synonymous. Those that I have known have consistently called themselves Romanies (singular Romany) and have regarded gypsy as offensive. Andrewa (talk) 00:37, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
• Strongly oppose for many reasons, but here's one: if we really needed to move this page, don't you think we would have done it long time ago? I haven't seen a single editor who has edited this article before this year support this move. Doesn't that perhaps tell you something? --Kuaichik (talk) 01:11, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
• Oppose - "gypsy" is more synonymous with Irish traveller in the UK (pop. 61 million) than Roma people. I'd think this would apply in other places too. Sceptre ^(talk) 02:56, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
• Strong Oppose - This is silly and has been discusses for ages on this page without any alternative results. Wikipedia policy has, by name, specified Roma as the appropriate term. The Myotis (talk) 06:28, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
  • Agree, changed my previous oppose vote to strong oppose. Andrewa (talk) 09:55, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
• Strongly oppose, possibly the silliest vote I've seen on Wikipedia. The suggestion to move an article from the name used in any encyclopedia to a derogatory term border on violating WP:POINT. I note in passing that no non-Romanian user seems to support the move. JdeJ (talk) 16:48, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
• Oppose based on Wikipedia:Naming conventions (identity) and encyclopedia links shown by User:Cordless Larry (esp. Encarta and Britannica). Callmederek (talk) 18:11, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Vote (continued, pasted from below)

1. Strongly agree - I strongly agree to move the article towards Gypsies (Roma people) Marc KJH (talk) 16:04, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Have you listed that suggestion at Wikipedia:Requested moves? Cordless Larry (talk) 16:12, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

There have already been a vote, you've lost (not that it would matter). Now get over it! AKoan (talk) 16:16, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Comment Why are you starting a new vote section? What's wrong with the one above? And I would also suggest you take a look at WP:CONSENSUS - just because some people agree with your point of view does not mean that you have achieved consensus for something as controversial as a page move. // Chris ^{(complaints)•(contribs)} 16:17, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

We'll see the results. Last time it wasn't proposed an alternative, now there is. Marc KJH (talk) 16:19, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

• Strongly oppose There's already a vote about a move in progress and this suggestion is even worse. If Marc KJH is unable to realise that offensive terms are not to be used as the titles for Wikipedia articles then that is, frankly, only his problem and nothing that need concern others. JdeJ (talk) 17:05, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Comment IF Mark is offensive, that probably that`s becasuse I he was called an "Idiot" just for suporting the move...(togheter with other users). The user that made the statement was not punished, and probably should not be on the first mistake, but then he said that he stood by his words....Anyway, I myself am still a bit frustrated that no apology was given, so please be civil, stop calling names and all...than you may get the treatment that you would like to have in a project such as this. AdrianCo (talk) 18:36, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

• Comment - a complex issue. Actual Romanian Gypsies I've spoken to in the last couple of years - people who are secure in their separate ethnic identity and not trying to pass for Romanians - freely referred to themselves as ţigani. Their language they called romanes, but their ethnicity, ţigan, so I think the assumption the term is automatically offensive is off the mark. Not only do the great majority of Romanians use that term, but so do quite a few self-respecting Gypsies. On the other hand, for better or worse, the media and scholarly works have strongly come to prefer "Roma" in recent years, and we can't ignore that. So I think the status quo should stand until and unless a more convincing case is made for "Gypsies", but we can revisit the matter in the future. Biruitorul (talk) 21:11, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Comment You've said nothing new. There are Rromanies that find the term 'gypsy/tigan' offensive and there are others that don't. In this case the Wikipedia policy it is not to use the term. It is a simple problem. —Preceding unsigned comment added by AKoan (talk • contribs) 10:29, 25 March 2008 (UTC) . I made the comment AKoan (talk) 10:39, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose: This is obvious. I can't even believe we're still discussing this when there is already specific wikipedia policy stating that "Roma is preferred over gypsy" - TheMightyQuill (talk) 19:14, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
• Strong Oppose for several reasons including that "Gypsy" is improper, colloquial, offensive, un-encyclopaedic, but most of all, utterly ambiguous. 76.167.156.93 (talk) 22:06, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
• Strongly Oppose Move: "Roma" is ambiguous. Topics about Romioi (Greeks); Romania; the Roman Empire; the Holy Roman Empire; the Roman / Latin alphabet; Roman Catholic Church; and other Roman things all refer indirectly to Roma (Rome) in Italy as distinct from a Rom, a Romani person, the Roma, the Romane people, or speakers of RomanesRoma or the Romane in general but "Gypsy" is ambiguous too, besides being offensive, harking back to the European Zigeuner genocide of last century, and being entirely exonymous and derived from a misleading root with false, negative connotations. When the Romane people, who call themselves the Romane manusha, called http://rmy.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roma have survived to this day, an endonym has made its way into English, and http://rmy.wikipedia.org/wiki/ exists, it seems unreasonable for this move to occur. I'm certain it should stay on Rom, Rom (person), Roma, Roma (ethnic group), The Roma, The Roma (ethnic group), Romani person, Romane people, Romanes speakers, Romani people, which is imperfect because Romani is the singular adjective, while Romane is the plural adjective, or Romany people, which bridges the i/e split and may be more popular in English. The emboldened forms follows types used in the List of adjectival forms of place names. Exonym and endonym#List of English exonyms for peoples says "Romani people" is the endonym. https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/print/ro.html lists "Roma" as the ethnic group and "Romany (Gypsy)" as the language in Romania, while they're both "Roma" in Bulgaria [[1]], both "Romany (Gypsy)" in Serbia [[2]], and "Roma" in Hungary, where only the ethnic group is shown [[3]]Romane, Romane (people), The Romane, Romani, or even Romani People. "Roma People" seems to use the noun, "Roma", adjectivally when a suitable adjective already exists, but anything Roma-related term would be preferable to the proposed move. Gypsy and Gyphtoi (Γύφτοι)) -related roots are unnecessary and cause undue offence. Cigány, Tzigane, Zigeuner , Zincali, and other Tsinganoi (τσιγγάνοι) -related roots don't have the Egyptian problem but do have the rest, beyond being almost unknown in English. Similarly, Lambani, Labana, Lambadi, Rabari, and Banjara are inappropriate. I'd like to find a way to prevent a move to Gypsy from being viable for between 3 months and a year, because this topic rises too often. I want to see if anyone in the community would support a move to Roma (ethnic group) or Romany peopleRomane. Thecurran (talk) 21:16, 27 March 2008 (UTC) I edited my grammar and added some sources. :)--Thecurran (talk) 08:41, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

I could support a move back to Romani People, but lets finish the business at hand here first. Furthermore, I agree that there should be a definite moratorium on this particluar question (Roma>Gypsy) for a few months. István (talk) 21:55, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

No, we should not finish the business at hand here first. The move from "Romani People" to "Roma People" without a discussion was against Wikipedia policy since it was a very controversial title. That is the problem, not the move to "Gypsies". What is this, they move it from "Romani People" to "Roma People" and then from "Roma People" to "Gypsies" so that they have what to negociate??? AKoan (talk) 10:23, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

This is a survey/straw poll count. It is not binding. It tries to approximate a solution like WP:NCI#Ethnic and national identities's WP:IMOS#Derry / Londonderry with special attention to WP:PNSD#Deletion, moving and featuring in an effort to present an estimate of community opinion on WP:RM#2008-03-23, which will soon become backlog. It starts with Talk:Roma people#Survey's first edit on 2008-03-23 and ends with its last edit on 2008-03-27

Strong Agrees: 2 + 0 anonymous

Rezistenta, Marc KJH

Agrees: 3 + 0 anonymous

AdrianCo, StereoDevil, Olahus

Neutrals that lean towards Agrees:2 + 0 anonymous

Snowolf, Nergaal

Neutrals that lean towards Opposes: 4 + 0 anonymous

GTBacchus, Lucasbfr, AKoan, Biruitorul

Opposes: 8 + 0 anonymous

Cordless Larry, István, Asarelah, Narson, K. Lásztocska, Sceptre, Callmederek, TheMightyQuill

Strong Opposes: 7 + 1 anonymous

ILike2BeAnonymous, Chris, Andrewa, Kuaichik, The Myotis, JdeJ, 76.167.156.93, thecurran

NB: It's hard to check this and write it at the same time, so I may miss the mark a little but here it comes. Registered Users:

Strong: Agree < Oppose (2 > 7)

Medium: Agree < Oppose (3 > 8)

Weak: Agree = Oppose (0 = 0)

Neutral: Agree < Oppose (2 < 4) NB: Neutrals are subjective.

Anonymous Users:

Strong: Agree < Oppose (0 = 1)

Medium: Agree = Oppose (0 = 0)

Weak: Agree = Oppose (0 = 0)

Neutral: Agree = Oppose (0 = 0) NB: Neutrals are subjective.

In an AFD vote, usually only the strong, medium, or weak positions of registered voters are counted. In none of those three sections did Agree achieve majority. Including neutral and anonymous positions creates 5 more sections, in none of which did Agree achieve majority. I will report that the participants of this straw poll, in general, opposed the requested move report on WP:RM#2008-03-23 where I think further discussion should continue. :)--Thecurran (talk) 03:53, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

[edit] An Etymology Theory

The concept Romanies is abused by the Gypsy activists (I mean by that not ethnic Gypsies, but political minded activists who hide a political agenda). During the ancient times, Romania meant the Roman Empire, and because after Diocletian (around year 283) the empire moved its center of power in the Balkans, the Eastern Roman Empire was synonymous with Romania. Therefore, all citizens of these society (starting with Caracalla, the emperor who empowered all free living human beings in the empire to call themselves roman citizens) were Romans. Greeks called themselves, romaioi, jews called themselves romaniotes, etc. The Gypsies came in this part of the world about the year 1000 where called by the Romaioi, Atsinganoi. Later on, some groups, who lived in the proximity of the latins of the Balkans, the vlahs, or the romanians (calling themselve also ruma, rum, aromanian, arman which created the patronim Armani) starting calling themselves ruma/roma.

Dear, what are you trying to tell it's a lie : "Later on, some groups, who lived in the proximity of the latins of the Balkans, the vlahs, or the romanians (calling themselve also ruma, rum, aromanian, arman which created the patronim Armani) starting calling themselves ruma/roma". This theory resembles very much with Roesler's theory. In this, Roesler says that the Romanians have imigrated in Transylvania after the Hungarian conquered this land, to justify their revenication about this land. It's very well known that the Hungarians are denying the Romanians right over Transylvania. The Romanians ancesters are the Dacians and the Latins from Roman Empire, even you don't agree with that. And the Romanians are calling Romanians not ruma, rum. The term Romanian it's older than the term Roma, Romani wich is trying to apoint the Gypsy etnics. The Romanians lived allways in Romania (Dacia) wich it's not in The Balkan Peninsula. So learn more geography and History. For all bozg...s, stop denigrating Romanian people. The stygmate what are you trying to put to the Romanians doesn't fit to them. The Romanians are called vlahs in Serbia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nomád Terv (talk • contribs) 18:54, 17 May 2008 (UTC) --> --> --> --> --> -->

In 1949 Tito, who tried to control Yugoslavia through a divisive policy, founded the first a "Roma" political activism. From that moment, the "Roma" activism was entrenched in the leftist (communist) camp, being financed and stimulated by leftist ideologies. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.124.86.3 (talk) 16:14, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

"Roma" is the name the gypsies now prefer for themselves, however historically inaccurate it may be), was immediately picked up by the left-wing European media (see e.g. the Guardian’s "UN Report says one in six Roma is starving", 1/17)

As a people (or, more accurately, a collection of disparate groups) originating in India’s Gujarat, gypsies were the camp followers of Mongol invaders of Eastern Europe in the 13th century. Once within the Byzantine Empire, they adapted the Byzantine self-defining term of Romaioi ("Romans" in Greek), given Byzantium’s claim to be the direct successor of the (Eastern) Roman Empire. Hence today’s historically absurd self-definition as "Roma." Source 16:52, 25 March 2008 (UTC) Rezistenta (talk) 16:53, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

There are many theories related to the etymology of Rrom/Rroma/Rromani including this one advanced by the Romanian Michael Radu. However Rromanies started to use the word Rrom for themselves in the past, this doesn't change the present situation. AKoan (talk) 09:49, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Michael Radu is an American political scientist and journalist born in Romania, he is not Romanian. He is Senior Fellow at the Foreign Policy Research Institute in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania Rezistenta (talk) 10:25, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Oh, he is just born in Romania... AKoan (talk) 09:47, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes, he's gypsy ethic from Romania (Romania comes from Romanians, not from Roma, Romani, Romanies, etc... bullsh...t). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nomád Terv (talk • contribs) 18:54, 17 May 2008 (UTC) --> --> --> --> --> -->

[edit] Roma people in Hungary: 8-10%

the appalling social and economic situation of the Roma, who account for between 8 and 10 percent of Hungary's 10 million people that means 800,000-1,000,000. --Marc KJH (talk) 17:35, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Correct. I would imagine that there are quite a lot of estimates floating around though. Cordless Larry (talk) 17:57, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

This was in response to [4] Now there are references. Marc KJH (talk) 17:59, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for clarifying. You should probably add a reference to the figure in the table to stop it being reverted. Cordless Larry (talk) 18:01, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Ok. Done. Marc KJH (talk) 18:01, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Why not 8-20 percent? Do they all have identity cards? I believe not. It's posible...? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nomád Terv (talk • contribs) 18:54, 17 May 2008 (UTC) --> --> --> --> --> -->

Can someone do me (us) a favor and extract the part of that PDF that's relevant and post it here? I tried to download the damn thing, and after about 6 megabytes, Adobe Reader gave up and said the file was damaged or corrupted somehow. How can people post such gargantuan documents in good conscience? There ought to be a warning label attached to them. +ILike2BeAnonymous (talk) 19:21, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

The 8-10 per cent figure comes from here, which isn't a PDF, so I presume you're referring to the DEMOS document. It states: "In the general census of 2001, 189,984 individuals claimed to be ethnic Roma. Experts and Roma organisations put the number of Roma living in Hungary between 450,000 and 600,000". Cordless Larry (talk) 19:42, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Where are the archives

Why aren't the archive links working? Rezistenta (talk) 23:22, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Because the page has been moved (without discussion). Cordless Larry (talk) 23:26, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

No, the archives didn't worked also before that, that's not the reason, we should fix this in the future Rezistenta (talk) 23:28, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

You can access them at Talk:Romani people/Archive1, etc. Cordless Larry (talk) 23:30, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

It's probably due to double redirects. Cordless Larry (talk) 23:32, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Ok now it's fixed, thx for the cooperation Rezistenta ::::::(talk) 23:37, 23 March 2008( UTC)

I have moved back the article to Roma people since it seems not to have consensus. -- lucasbfr ^talk 23:42, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

You shouldn't. It's more consensus to move it not to stay in present form.Marc KJH (talk) 12:42, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

There was consensus to move it to Roma people (gypsies)? No one was even proposing that! Cordless Larry (talk) 12:46, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

I move it to Gypsies (Roma people) This can be a good compromise. Marc KJH (talk) 12:53, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but you can't just move it without agreement. I'll request for it to be moved back again. Cordless Larry (talk) 12:55, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

More people support this version. Sorry. Marc KJH (talk) 12:57, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

The vote above seems to suggest otherwise. Cordless Larry (talk) 13:00, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

People should at leas learn how to count before coming here. AKoan (talk) 16:21, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Of course it does. This is a unilateral move and should simply be reversed. Andrewa (talk) 13:08, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

User:Marc KJH is now accusing me of vandalism at User_talk:Cordless_Larry#Test. Very grown-up! Cordless Larry (talk) 13:10, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks User:Jeepday for moving it back. Cordless Larry (talk) 13:14, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Who changed the article from Romani to Roma in the first place? That was vandalism, too! AKoan (talk) 13:34, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Now, could someone please fix the archives? A huge (and I think I could say a very important) chunk of the previous discussions is currently missing. They can still be accessed, sure (via earlier diffs of this talk page), but it really would be nice if someone could fix this. Whether that means putting the archives back or putting some of the formerly archived information on the main discussion page, I personally think either way is fine. --Kuaichik (talk) 13:42, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

There are links at the top of this page to them. Cordless Larry (talk) 13:44, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

I know, but they're not the right ones! Can someone please fix this? --Kuaichik (talk) 13:48, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

I've had a go but there seem to have been parallel discussions going on. Cordless Larry (talk) 13:54, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] How dare you call my people "Gypsy"!!

I am from a Romani family and my family find the title "Gypsy" very offensive. The title is short for Egyptian which in todays time we know is definetely not what we are. I thought we lived in a time of political correctness. I can understand gypsy being directed here but to actually have it in the title. Please remove the word from the title as surely this is wrong. Tsigans / Cigans is acceptable as this is a title used by many Romani groups themselves. signed "Chavo" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.34.227.166 (talk • contribs) 23:36, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

In view of this, perhaps you want to cast your vote above against moving the article to "Gypsy". (Probably not going to happen, but would be good to register your opposition.) +ILike2BeAnonymous (talk) 03:03, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

For real gypsies it's not shamefull at all to be called gypsies. Marc KJH (talk) 12:45, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, I guess the "Gypsy kings" are not from the same ethnic group as you are. Dpotop (talk) 12:48, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Some of them are more Gypsies than others. Marc KJH (talk) 12:51, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Nobody said that there are not Romanies calling them self gypsy, especially in the music world, but that changes nothing of the things said above. AKoan (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 13:36, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

How doesn't this change nothing? If this a peiorative term I think they would't call themselves by this name, it does change the things, it makes some your statements look like a BIG LIE. Rezistenta (talk) 15:44, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Did you at leas understand what i've said? There are many Romanies that find the term 'gypsy' offensive, but there are also others that don't, like the Gipsy Kings. How did you contradict me? AKoan (talk) 16:11, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Actually many people that try to call themselves "gypsy" are just plain old travellers and don't even have "Romani" blood. This especially the case in the UK and the United States where normal European travellers are looking for an identity. The Gitanos of Spain call themselves Kale or Gitano / Cigano (from Tsigane). Gipsy Kings only used the word "Gypsy" to recognised of their background to the universal market. The name is probably more to do with marketing their music as opposed to a name they use amongst their own people. Signed 'Chavo' —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.34.227.166 (talk • contribs) 21:57, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

You will find Roma, Romani very offensive term in 15 - 20 years like Gypsy. It's like an old proverb that says : "the wolf canges his hair, but not his habits". Perhaps, later we will call them Hungaros. Like it? You deserve it! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nomád Terv (talk • contribs) 18:54, 17 May 2008 (UTC) --> --> --> --> --> -->

Maybe so, but Wikipedia isn't a crystal ball. Cordless Larry (talk) 18:22, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Exactly, this Wikipedia is foul of subjectivities. To understand, why Romanians don't like to be confused with Gypsies read this : http://blog.scrie.ro/en/index.php/2007/07/romanians-and-gypsies-two-worlds-apart/. But, if Wikipedia is made of subjects like you, that means there is place for one like me. Respect me! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nomád Terv (talk • contribs) 19:41, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Unmoved

This article appears to have been moved from Roma people to Gypsies (Roma people) without consensus for the move, by User:Marc KJH. I have restored it to the original version. Jeepday (talk) 13:16, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Thank you. I notice that the user id in question has only existed for a short time, has been accused of being a sockpuppet, and has already been blocked once for violation of the 3RR. Andrewa (talk) 13:23, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks to User:Zzuuzz for protecting the page against further moves as well. Sad that it had to happen though... Cordless Larry (talk) 13:26, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Also the people who changed Romani into Roma and than Roma into gypsies should be considered vandals here. AKoan (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 13:39, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Mark has been checked, and his id is alright, so what`s the problem with him, that he once broked the 3rr rule??? Come on, almost all editors make that mistake. AdrianCo (talk) 14:23, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

True, but he also moved this page against consensus. Cordless Larry (talk) 14:31, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

I also see that a lot of people agree with my move. Marc KJH (talk) 16:03, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

"a lot of people agree" is not a consensus. It wasn't even a majority. AKoan (talk) 16:18, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Comment from a gypsy point of view

being a gypsy myself I must say untill few years ago I never heard about the term Roma or Romani for our group, the new term is certainly not pushed by us but more probable by others, we use the term cigane or tsigane to desigante ourselves not roma or romani .. I wanted to clarify this because I see many untrue things probably commented by non-gypsies 82.103.71.98 (talk) 03:00, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Just curious; what part of the world are you from, if you don't mind? +ILike2BeAnonymous (talk) 03:05, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Europe 82.103.71.98 (talk) 03:08, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Mind narrowing that down a little bit? Europe's a big place, especially culturally speaking. +ILike2BeAnonymous (talk) 03:18, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Eastern Europe, Bulgaria form a region called Dobrich, why is my location so important ? 82.103.71.98 (talk) 03:27, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Important? Don't know; I'm curious, but it may be relevant; different places have differences in how the local Roma population identifies themselves. By the way, I haven't been there, but I've been to Varna, so I have some familiarity with the area. (I've heard, and danced to, red-hot Roma musicians at Koprivshtitsa, for instance.)

So you're part of Dobrudzha (spelling?), correct? To me, one of the most fascinating parts of Bulgaria (at least musically speaking), because of the mixing of Bulgarian and Romanian influences. +ILike2BeAnonymous (talk) 03:53, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

You may be a 'gypsy' dude, but you surely are not a Rrom AKoan (talk) 13:41, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes, it's interesting... the Romanies I have known wanted to be called that, but talking among themselves they called themselves cigane as you say. But not to outsiders. Andrewa (talk) 14:00, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

I actually knew that but I wasn't so sure untill now, now i'm 100 % positive that they aren't using the term Roma/Romani or whatever Rezistenta (talk) 15:41, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Note that User:82.103.71.98 has now been permanetly blocked as an open proxy. Cordless Larry (talk) 16:58, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

I guess someone is playing hard not to move this article. Someone is double here. Marc KJH (talk) 17:00, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

The IP seemed to be supporting the move though. Cordless Larry (talk) 17:10, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

So someone is playing hard to move the article. AKoan (talk) 10:31, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

The word Rom means 'husband / respected married male' and his wife is a Romni in most Romani groups. Some Roms may call themselves Tsigane as a racial group but never "Gypsy". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.34.227.166 (talk) 22:23, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Ok, so maybe someone forced the Gypsy Kings to call themselves Gypsy? I know my argument is a bit nauseating after so many repetitions, but so is the oppinion repeated above. As concerns the argument "We should call them Rom because men call themselves Rom because it means respected married male", well, it has nothing to do with our naming argument here. After all, we call an English man English, not Husband. Dpotop (talk) 06:34, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

"Gipsy Kings" it's a name that some manager gave them so to make appeal to the romantic image of the "gypsies". They didn't even spell it correctly. Iberian Romanies don't even have "gypsy" as an exonym, but "gitano". Same thing with "Taraf de Haidouks/Band Of Gypsies". I don't think that the members of the taraf even knew the word "gypsy" before (or haidouk for that matter). AKoan (talk) 10:01, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Your argument is again fallacious. You somehow claim that a Spanish band would never choose an English name by itself, because... it is not a Spanish name. It's obvious that no Spanish guy would know how to choose an English name. :):):)

However, they assumed the name, and everybody knows why: Because Gypsies (and not Roma) are well known around the world for their music. The word "Roma" is also promoted by NGOs in Romania and France instead of the traditional Tsigan/Gitan, but somehow the music is still called Tsigan/Gitan. It's only when talking about poverty and crime that Gypsy/Tsigan/Gitan is no longer acceptable. Dpotop (talk) 11:24, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

And since your are proudly correcting other people's spelling, here are some informations to improve your culture:

• your spelling argument is false. Gipsy is a common variant of gypsy, per http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gipsy. Dpotop (talk) 11:24, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Not here in North America it isn't; I've never seen "gipsy" in print here, but see "gypsy" all the time. Maybe in Europe it's common. +ILike2BeAnonymous (talk) 19:09, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

This is "English" Wikipedia, not "North American" Wikipedia. Please, next time check your facts before questioning other people's spelling. Dpotop (talk) 08:15, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't think ILike2BeAnonymous was suggesting that we go with the North American usage, but was simply pointing out that there may be differences between American and European spelling of the word. In the UK, it tends to be the case that tabloid newspapers (especially The Sun) use "gipsy" (i, lower case g) (see here), whereas the broadsheet press use "Gypsy" (y, upper case G) when referring to Travellers (see here) and Roma when referring to, well, Roma (see here). Cordless Larry (talk) 09:18, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

I think ILike2BeAnonymous was quite clear in saying that "gipsy" is an incorrect spelling, and that statement was used with a deogatory sense (hence my reaction).(actually, it was AKoan) Your explanation, however, is interesting. Are there sources which we could cite on that? Dpotop (talk) 12:06, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Where in the world do you get that? Please re-read what I wrote; I said nothing about "correct" or "incorrect", but merely pointed out that "gipsy" is not used here in North America. Your poor reading comprehension throws your ability to edit this article logically or objectively into doubt. +ILike2BeAnonymous (talk) 17:36, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

My sincere apologies. It was indeed not you, but AKoan. I strike my false affirmation. Dpotop (talk) 17:46, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Well, the links I provided could be used as examples, but I'm not aware if anything has been written comparing usage of the terms. I'll see what I can find. Cordless Larry (talk) 13:49, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

OK, I can find plenty of examples, but nothing analysing the use of different spellings/capitalisations. Cordless Larry (talk) 16:02, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

• the Gipsy Kings originated in France, where their parents were living after fleeing Franco's Spain. So it's still a Spanish Gipsy tradition, but the guys were raised in France, and maybe learned some English at school.Just like the Romanians from the Taraf des Haidouks. Dpotop (talk) 11:24, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

If the word 'gipsy' is as common as you say why did you use 'Gypsy Kings' until now? And if they learned the word 'gipsy' at school (did YOU learned the word 'gipsy' at school?) this doesn't change the fact the the word 'gypsy/tzigane' is used in the music business for commercial purposes since there is a market for 'gypsy music'. And the fact that Romanies in the music business don't find the term 'gypsy' offensive doesn't change that fact that others do. AKoan (talk) 09:25, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Ok. good thing you don't make demeaning comments on others any more. Now, I would be curious to know during which class, in your school, did you learn the word "Gypsy"? Is there some standard reading in the USA covering this word? My English classes did not include it. Like many others (a majority in the world, I presume), I learned this word from literature and media. Fortunately, there are more things on this world and I know more things than those taught to me at school. And I learned that word as "Gypsy". Now, in Britain and elsewhere it's sometimes spelled as Gipsy (see above comment) and before you came with your demeaning comment I didn't even pay attention to it (there are other words spelled in various ways, especially in a multi-cultural environment, such as the one in which I live). Given that several respected dictionaries say "Gypsy=Gipsy=Roma", your arguments are... tiring. Dpotop (talk) 10:05, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

You are the one who brought school into discussion. And don't take it personal.

Legend has it that one day a particularly enthusiastic fan asked their name. She commented that since Reyes means "kings" and because they were Gypsies, they should be Gypsy Kings. The name stuck, altho was misspelled Gipsy, with the "i" instead of "y" - taken from www.gipsykings.net. It was an American fan that suggested the name 'Gypsy (Gipsy) Kings' and it was Stephane Karo that gave the name 'Taraf de Haidouks/band of Gypsies' to the lautari from Clejani. AKoan (talk) 12:08, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Romani people and vandalism

This article should be called "Romani People" since it's about Romanies, not about "gypsies", nor just about Roma (as a Romani branch). The term "gypsy" it's incorrect and also pejorative for many, the term Roma only refers to the eastern Europe Romanies.

The Wikipedia policy it's clear and the term proffered by the ethnic group itself should be used. Nobody can't impose another term to an ethnic group. Thats the most ridiculous thing ever. It doesn't matter the the Germans call them self Deutsch. IF THE GERMANS WOULD ASK than the article about Germans should be called Deutsch.

There should be distinct articles for gypsies, Roma and Romani people since each of these terms denote different things.

The users that moved "Romani people" to "Roma people" and "Roma people" to "Gypsies" are both vandals since the firs move was even without a discussion and the second without reaching a consensus. So the article should not be reverted to Roma people but to Romani people. AKoan (talk) 14:12, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

The page was moved by Bogdangiusca the Administrator, he is not a vandal and Roma is alot more used then romani by academic and encyclopdic sources, Rezistenta (talk) 15:33, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

it doesn't matter that he is an Administrator, the page should have been moved after a discussion where a consensus was reached. AKoan (talk) 16:13, 24 March 2008 (UTC)\

it does matter, when the page was moved from Roma to Romani it was never made a poll about this, take your toys and go play elsewere Rezistenta (talk) 16:15, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Man, you are funny. He shouldn't even make a poll, the move should have been discussed and a consensus should have been reached. AKoan (talk) 16:26, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

well this didn't happened... Rezistenta (talk) 16:30, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

exactly... AKoan (talk) 10:44, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Let's move it to Tsigan since Webster calls them like that. Marc KJH (talk) 16:46, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Interesting suggestion, but against WP:NC. Very few English speakers would have heard the term, the terms in common use in my experience are Romany (or Romani I guess is the same word) and of course Gypsy. I'd guess this is due to the Romanies often keeping to themselves. When I've been speaking to them, they'll use the word "tsigan" and then, realising I'm an (invited) part of the conversation, say something like "that's our word for the Romany people". Andrewa (talk) 23:55, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

"Let's move it to Tsigan", "Let's move it to Gitan", "Let's move it to Bohemians".. give it a break will you, the article it's not going anywhere:) AKoan (talk) 10:44, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Stupid dispute

Indeed, I think this whole dispute is silly. On one side one has "minority rights" guys that would not accept "gypsy", and on the other you have guys that won't accept "roma", even if it's used by a sizeable part of media nowadays.

And nobody proposes the actual middle way, which is to present both names (and others, such as Tsigan) on an equal basis, just like it's done in dictionaries such as Merriam-Webster. Dpotop (talk) 16:24, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Tsigan works for me too. I think it's very neutral and beside comes from Merriam-Webster which is a powerful source. Marc KJH (talk) 16:45, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

So you're now suggesting three different moves? Cordless Larry (talk) 16:56, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

The actual name cannot stand, I hope you realize this. Any new proposal is better than this one. Marc KJH (talk) 17:01, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

The actual name is the one generally used. Marc KJH's behaviour starts to look a lot like disrupting Wikipedia. JdeJ (talk) 17:05, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't know what the current name is, but beware that any of Roma, Gypsy is OK (there are reliable sources for both). For Tsigan is not so clear, because it's about English language usage. So, I still think this dispute is stupid, and the only issue here is explaining that both names are OK, and why. And then, you make a link and that's it. Dpotop (talk) 19:43, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

All disputes are stupid in a sense. That's dispute as opposed to discussion. When we discuss things, we learn, and Wikipedia grows. When we dispute things, we refuse to learn, and at best we waste our time.

But I'm still reluctant to allow gypsy in the article name. It's offensive to some of the people described, there are good alternatives, and both our naming conventions and many, many previous discussions have ended up rejecting gypsy. Andrewa (talk) 00:04, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Andrewa, what do you think of the idea of having two articles, one on the Roma/Romani people, and another on gypsies in general, covering the various ethnicities that have been called "gypsy" and the connotations surrounding that term? -GTBacchus^(talk) 20:39, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

In a way we have the beginnings of that with the Gypsy disambiguation page. Cordless Larry (talk) 23:02, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

And what do you make of dictionaries saying that gypsy is roma except for a figurated sense? Dpotop (talk) 22:53, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

I think that the way it is now, with a disambiguation page and separated articles for each ethnic group, is the best solution. AKoan (talk) 10:05, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

The disambig page is misleading and WP:OR because it invents senses for the word Gypsy. For instance lists there "Sea gypsies" as if they were Gypsies (and before answering me remember that a Sea lion is not a Lion). Gypsy, in English, is either Roma, or someone with a similar lifestyle. And Merriam Webster points that in the first case you write "Gypsy", and in the second one "gypsy". Dpotop (talk) 10:56, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

What?!?! This hole discussion exists only because some Romanians (not me) are afraid of being confused with Rromanies because of the name similarity and you are proposing a solution where the distinction is made only by the capitalization of the first letter of a word?!?!?! AKoan (talk) 09:04, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

 :::::For shore you're not Romanian. See, you make just a litke discrimination. You are a nice human right activist. You litle devil... They haven't the right to say? It's bad? In the opinion of human rights activists, if you don't agree with them you are making a discrimination. Nice............. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nomád Terv (talk • contribs) 18:54, 17 May 2008 (UTC) --> --> --> --> --> -->

This is simply incorrect; at least etymologically speaking, "Gypsy" also applies to those who seem or behave like "true Gypsies". In fact, one of the definitions in my dictionary (American Heritage) is "One that resembles a Gypsy in appearance or behavior". Hence the use of the term in such meanings as "gypsy cabs", "gypsy workers", etc. All of which properly belong on a disambiguation page. +ILike2BeAnonymous (talk) 17:01, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Your approach seems to be based on 2 fallacies:

• If I follow your argument, "etymologically speaking", a "Sea lion" applies to the sea mammal species that (remotely) behaves like a lion. So, you should create a disambig page Lion pointing to "Lion (feline)" and "Sea lion". ADDENDUM: actually, there is a disambig page for Lion, but the main article is still on the feline.
• Do you think that saying "behaves like a true Gypsy" and "behaves like a true Roma" are somehow semantically different? Dpotop (talk) 09:49, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Actually 'Sea lion' is on the disambiguation page of 'Lion' and so is the rock group 'Lion', although they are not real lions too:) AKoan (talk) 09:30, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] External links

Does anyone agree that the external links section needs cutting down? I propose deleting any dead links, getting rid of those to NGOs that are locally based in cities (such as Leeds) and just leaving the major national or international ones, and getting rid of some of the resource-type links. Cordless Larry (talk) 11:19, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Oh yes! And all unsourced and dubiously sourced statements need to be marked with ^{[citation needed]} or ^{[dubious – discuss]}, and deleted after 2 weeks or so. Dpotop (talk) 13:32, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Roma Homeland in Rajasthan

Section seems like a complete WP:CRUFT anyway and probably an attempt by some European freak to get rid of Roma people as being discussed here: [5] based on a supposed nostalgic desire that may or may not have been expressed by Roma people. Desione (talk) 00:18, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

I had a look for sources for this claim recently and couldn't find any, so I agree with you - this should go. 00:21, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Certainly a section on "Roma interaction with modern India" in place of this section would be more respectable and could be well cited. Removing this section for now. Desione (talk) 00:37, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Romania - different - Roma or Rroma or Gypsies

There's great injustice for The Romanian Nation to use the name Roma, Romani for Gypsies. It's a big confusion. The strangers can say that Romania is the land of the Gypsies. See Romani for Gypsies. This is an aberation. Or Roma. What's that? That's sh...t. Nobody asked Romanians if they agree with that and that's a shame to hide the Gypsies behind the Romanians. Romanian - different - Gypsy or Roma. Unless use the term Rroma for no confusion. I don't care that in English they ended to call Roma. The rules are made by man. Romania is the land of Romanian Nation. The minority of Gypsy Etnie should not use the name of country. How about Francs for Gypsy from France instead French people? Nice isn't that? Or Brits instead British people? Corect? Or Hongory insteand Hungarians? True? Should I continue? Ok. Germa for Germans, Itals for Italians, Spans for Spanish, etc. So Ady from Japan , Tara unde poate iti vei lumina mintea, you in quality of Romanian not as Gypsy or "Rroma" and not Roma, you must watch for interest of your country. It's about identity of Romanians (Rumanians) Nation and not about discrimination. It's about the right to exist with the name in respect. The Gypsies can build their respect with an solid education and decently instead steeling Romanians identity. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.116.76.113 (talk) 21:55, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

None of this makes any difference to the title of the article. This is an encyclopedia, not a reflection of your own views and therefore uses generally accepted terminology. Cordless Larry (talk) 22:12, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

My friend... The Rom or Roma name has nothing to do with Romania - "There is no etymological connection between the name Roma (ethnicity) and the city of Rome, ancient Rome, Romania, the Romanian people or the Romanian language." It is a mere coincidence! Read the etymological section of the article before saying such... ignorant platitudes! The Ogre (talk) 00:36, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

What strange coincidence! In my ignorance, there's almost no difference between Romanians and Romanies. You must listen first very carefully the name and after that you can make the difference. It's very nice to observe in my ignorance that for the first time it was Roma, after that it was Romanes, after Romani and now Romanies. In what language are you writing in this page? I suppose that it is English. Ok, then, why do you decline that words in the Gypsies language in English. How nice, you ignorant. You can do better then speaking lies and acuzing me for ignorance. Let's be clear : what's the image of Romania in Europe? A land that provides Gypsy children to the streets of Europe. So why me, why should I be Gypsy? Only because I'm Romanian, not Gypsy (see confusion Romani, Romanies, Romanes). You can say all the great things, that make a noble man. Romanians are Romanians and the Gypsies are Gypsies. Every people can chose his way of beeing. Romanians have already one (Romania is a country of Romanian Nation; remember the name), so The gypsies can now chose their way respecting the others. See Romanians. Do that and that's ok. Please don't tell me bulsh..ts like English already chosed the name for the Gypsies. You can see the name's variety for theese. Now it's a proces to define theese peoples (the gypsies). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nomád Terv (talk • contribs) 05:53, 11 April 2008 (UTC) — Nomád Terv (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

"Romania" does not disqualify "Roma people". (nor does "Rome") History is full of examples of similarities: Syrian is not Assyrian; Hungarian is not (strictly) Hun; Navajo, Sioux and Comanche are not from India; Prussians and Russians are not related as their spellings might suggest. We deal with such ambiguities with a proper disclaimer (as The Ogre points out above). Could one imagine Cato taking umbrage at some upstart Daccians usurping the hallowed name of the Città Eterna for themselves? Maybe, but it hardly matters; Romania is the name of the country, Rome the city, and Roma the ethnicity. If we need an extra sentence to sort the ambiguity, then write one so its sorted. István (talk) 04:44, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Hm, I like very much your observation. It's very ok. What can I say? I say that you dont deesagree the name Hungaros for Gypsies. It's true? Cause every time from now when I'll write here I will use this therm. I Know that you are Hungarian (after name) and I know very well that ERRC (European Roma Rights Center) is cordonated from Hungary by Hungarians. So asume yourself this duty. Cause you have a lots of duties. The ideea is to not put the identity of Gypsies (Hungaros) to the Romanians. You created this name. Now in all Europe, all the europeans if they see a Gypsy (Hungaro) to the streets of Europe, automaticaly they say it's Romanian beaucause in their imagination is their land. Nice? A Romanian is different by etnie and language to a Gypsy (Hungaro). Romanians did not protest to this problem but they will. Now in all Europe, a Gypsy (Hungaro) from another European country (Hungary, Serbia, Bulgaria, Spain, France, Germany, England, Irland, Poland, etc.) is identified with a Gypsy (Hungaro) from Romania. Why? Beacause in their ignorance , europeans put the stygmate to Romanians. Which of you have been in Romania, land of the Romanians (not land of Gypsies (Hungaros))? Do you know us? No, you don't. All that you know is the kids with SIDA and the Gypsies (Hungaros). The Gypsies (Hungaros) are a integration problem to all Europe. Let's be clear. A tendence to migrate the Gypsies (Hungaros) to a specified country will not resolve their integration problem. All european countrys have citizens of Gypsie (Hungaro) etnie. So assume your citizens and don't disconsider the Romanians for something that they're not. Gypsies (Hungaros) are Gypsies (Hungaros). For you all imagine this name association for the european nations every time when you go outside, and even in your country. Szia! Good night! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nomád Terv (talk • contribs) 22:48, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Your feeling of injustice that the Roma have a name that is in someway similar to Romanians doesn't change the fact that this is an encyclopedia. Britain sounds like Brittany but we don't change the name of its entry because of that, do we? It doesn't matter what the origins of the name are, the point is that it's the accpeted name and therefore Wikipedia uses it. Cordless Larry (talk) 17:26, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

You mean she's not from Britain? ;-) That's a good one - another one even closer is Georgia and Georgia; I don't see the two being too upset at the other. About the renaming issue: remember, there are often two reasons for something: the good reason and the real reason. I believe the above passage (by Nomád Terv) is the best yet description of the real reason. István (talk) 19:21, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

(moved from attempted re-start of identical duscussion in a new section):

[edit] Romania - different - Roma or Rroma or Gypsies

There's great injustice for The Romanian Nation to use the name Roma, Romani for Gypsies. It's a big confusion. The strangers can say that Romania is the land of the Gypsies. See Romani for Gypsies. This is an aberation. Or Roma. What's that? That's sh...t. Nobody asked Romanians if they agree with that and that's a shame to hide the Gypsies behind the Romanians. Romanian - different - Gypsy or Roma. Unless use the term Rroma for no confusion. I don't care that in English they ended to call Roma. The rules are made by man. Romania is the land of Romanian Nation. The minority of Gypsy Etnie should not use the name of country. How about Francs for Gypsy from France instead French people? Nice isn't that? Or Brits instead British people? Corect? Or Hongory insteand Hungarians? True? Should I continue? Ok. Germa for Germans, Itals for Italians, Spans for Spanish, etc. So, it's about identity of Romanians (Rumanians) Nation and not about discrimination. It's about the right to exist with the name in respect. The Gypsies can build their respect with an solid education and decently instead steeling Romanians identity. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nomád Terv (talk • contribs) 16:50, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Please see the responses to your identical comment above. Cordless Larry (talk) 17:28, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

'for Hardless Larry : Dear I'trying to make You understand that I have the right to say that. Others like you don't understand that. So, for every day that this article exists I consider that it's my duty to write those words. If you don't like it shut up and don't interfere in this.' —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.96.153.180 (talk) 17:36, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

You have the right to say it, but it doesn't mean that we should change the name of the article. This has already been extensively discussed above and the consensus was against a move. You say that "I don't care that in English they ended to call Roma", but this is the English Wikipedia so we go with the establshed English name. Cordless Larry (talk) 17:55, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

NT - are you trying to make a point? Why then would you do this [6]? it is contrary to your stated goal of disambiguating the two groups. Please make your points in a more civil and constructive way. István (talk) 19:31, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Ok, stop this campain about this big lie. You are playing with lifes of milions peoples. Do not make an injustice. Let's say a true: all the Europe doesn't agree with Gypsies habits (with Gypsies majority). So do not make a people guilty (the Romanians) for Gypsy people. Gypsies are cityzens in all European Countrys (Gypsies are living in all Europe and they're not coming only from Romania; see they're history). So, respect them if you have so much equdistance with all their qualities and defects. Even if you don't like it. So..... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nomád Terv (talk • contribs) 18:54, 17 May 2008 (UTC) --> --> --> --> --> -->

Once again, you've missed the point. Wikipedia hasn't created the name Roma for the Roma people. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia and, as such, uses whatever terminology exists out in the real world. Cordless Larry (talk) 18:24, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Once again? You're talking about me, but you're so persistent to maintaine a wrong ideea. Let me tell you about one principle : say to a man one thing day by day, even if he don't agree with that, and again day by day, finaly he will change his opinion. Why? Because it's the way we are. So if you continue the popularisation of the term Roma, Romani, Romanies and that's wrong, the people, the others basing on your eronates informations will accept this. Also, read this again to understand, why Romanians don't like to be confused with Gypsies : http://blog.scrie.ro/en/index.php/2007/07/romanians-and-gypsies-two-worlds-apart/.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Nomád Terv (talk • contribs) 21:13, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

I understand your point about popularisation but it's not Wikipedia that is popularising the term - Roma is already the term most widely used so that's what we use here. You might want to take a look at WP:NAME on this. Cordless Larry (talk) 20:23, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Sterilization

Is there any proof of the claim that Norway forced them to be sterilized till 1977? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.119.185.104 (talk) 20:54, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes, see here. I'll add a reference to the article. Cordless Larry (talk) 20:59, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Population in India

Are the Banjara Romani? The reference for the population in India specifically says Banjara --Maurice45 (talk) 14:55, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

No, the Banjara are not Romani, though they may be related. I'll have to see where the estimate for India came from; as far as I know, there are no Romanies in India. There are other peoples called "gypsies" in India, but they are not Romani. --Kuaichik (talk) 04:25, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Ah, so I finally found the edit (of an older template) where the estimate for India was added: [7]. I think it's a mistake, but I kind of know the guy who added it, so I'll see whether I can get his consent to delete it. --Kuaichik (talk) 00:05, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

OK, so I do have his consent, but he says it would be nice if I could add some information about the Banjaras' relationship with the Romani people in the History section. Maybe I'll also include something about that in Ian Hancock and Banjara as well. --Kuaichik (talk) 19:51, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

Hmm, now the Romanian guy disagrees with me and has therefore reinserted the population figure for India (if nothing else). --Kuaichik (talk) 02:41, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] This article is Geographically challenged

Ok, so we start from the fact that the Roma people originated from Multan. Right, so Multan is in Pakistan, the southern Punjab region of Pakistan. Yet the author of this article fails to mention this anywhere. Why does the article state that Multan is in Rajahstan? I would advise the person to pick up a South Asia map frankly.
And why so many references to "Indian Subcontinent" when you know that Roma people originated from Multan? Do you realise how big the "Indian Subcontinent" actually is? A good 1.6 billion people live there, spread across half a dozen countries.
This article is so geographically challenged that its not even funny. I know a few Indians on wikipedia use the British Raj version of the Indian map so they can call all things Pakistan, Indian, but for the sake of knowledge please correct this. Thank you. --Xinjao (talk) 17:02, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Ugh. Yes, sorry about that. In reality, no one knows for sure whether the Romani people come from any one place at all, let alone whether they come from Multan.

I'm not sure who put all of that there (I never actually checked, but of course, it wasn't me! :-D). Note, of course, that this article is by no means written by only one person, so there is no one "author of this article."

I think this is just one of many problems with the current version of this article. But I just might do something about it...--Kuaichik (talk) 18:15, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Yuck. All that nonsense about Multan and the temple with "Jatts-something-Khsatris" was inserted by a banned sockpuppet [8] [9]. Strangely, he provides a reference for this, but I'm not even sure whether the reference says the same thing (I doubt it).

Anyone opposed to removing that nonsense? --Kuaichik (talk) 18:38, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

In fact, speaking of that "Origins" section - it seems (to me, at least) that a lot of the information there is either misleading or (as in the case of the "Jatts-Rajputs-Khatris") total nonsense. Maybe these problems can be taken care of later, probably when this page is in a more stable state. For now, though, let me repeat my question and put it in bold print, just in case people failed to notice:

Anyone opposed to removing the paragraphs inserted here? They were included by a banned sockpuppet of a banned user. --Kuaichik (talk) 21:40, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Sounds like a good idea to me. Cordless Larry (talk) 01:48, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Oh, heh! I forgot to note that I took out those paragraphs twice, once on May 14 and again the next day. --Kuaichik (talk) 06:11, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] killed "whatever that term means"

In the "origins" section it said the Nazis claimed the Roma "weren't 'Aryan' (whatever that term means)". I cut out the parenthetical bit, dropped the quotes around the term Aryan and linked the word to the Wikipedia article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.225.162.219 (talk) 17:14, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Re:this

The changes are not "unexplained" - the edit summary includes the explanation:

"[...]not backed up by sources" --Kuaichik (talk) 06:13, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Er...never mind, I guess(?)... --Kuaichik (talk) 05:19, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Number of roma people in Hungary

Data on the number of Roma in Hungary is being changed, so I think it should be discussed what are the "real" numbers and what references can be considered as reliable. Timur lenk (talk) 10:28, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Who are considered Roma in Hungary?

In Hungary, ethnicity is a question of choice. While it is a politically very liberal solution, it can be sometimes problematic. Ways of deciding ethnicity can be asking mother tongue, cultural affinity or ethnic identity, or to ask others (neighbors) about the given persons ethnicity or can be the enumerator's decision. The latter two "methods" use mainly external characters so it can be very offensive to consider someone to be a member of an ethnicity that she or he seems to be part of.

[edit] References with numbers

• 2001 Census^[10] The 2001 census had 3 questions regarding ethnicity: Language spoken with family members or friends (Gipsy, Romany, Bea: 53 075 persons); Affinity with cultural values, traditions of the given community (Gipsy, Romany, Bea: 129 208 persons); Declaring himself/herself as member of the given national/ethnic group (Gipsy, Romany, Bea: 205 720 persons)
• 1993 KSH (Hungarian Central Statistical Office)^[11] representative data collection^[12] (sample census). Ethnicity was the decision of the enumerator. The persons considered to have "Roma way of life" have a number of 394 000; if we add those considered "transitional" the number will be 450 000.
• HAS Institute of Sociology^[13] sociological data collection^[14] Someone was considered ethnically Roma according to the environment opinion. Number: 482 000 persons.
• Hungary's Strategic Audit 2005^[15]: Experts and Roma organisations put the number of Roma living in Hungary between 450 000 and 600 000 (source: István Kemény, Béla Janky, Gabriella Lengyel: Roma in Hungary Between 1971 and 2003. Budapest: Gondolat Publication House)
• Minority self-government elections 2006^[16] Together with the local authority election the election of minority self-government authorities is held as well. Before 2006 this caused disproportionateness since everyone older than 18 (regardless ethnicity) was eligible for voting on the representatives of the local ethnic authorities. For the 2006 elections 106 379 people registered themself to be eligible for voting on Roma self-government Authorities.
• The New York Times, February 6, 2008 article^[17] Title: In Hungary, Roma Get Art Show, Not a Hug. Number: "Roma make up an estimated 8 to 10 percent of the population." No source of estimation included.
• The Christian Science Monitor, February 13, 2008 article^[18] Title: Hungary's anti-Roma militia grows. Number: "[…]Roma, who account for between 8 and 10 percent of Hungary's 10 million people." No source of estimation included.
• International Herald Tribune, September 21, 2000 article^[19] Title: Q & A / Peter Gottfried, secretary for integration : Hungary Vows to Meet EU Criteria by 2003. Number: "[…]the country acknowledges the need for progress regarding its population of 500,000 to 1 million Roma, or Gypsies." No source of estimation included.
• Romnews, February 9, 1998 article^[20] Title: Hungary mayors end see-saw over homeless Roma. Number: "Estimates of their [i.e. Roma] numb ers range from 500,000 to almost a million in the country of 10 million people." No source of estimation included.
• Habitat for Humanity^[21] Title: Habitat for Humanity Hungary. Number: "According to the European Roma Rights Center, about 1 million Roma live in substandard housing in Hungary." Source mentioned, but not specified.
• European Roma Rights Centre article^[22] Title: The Unseen Powers: Perception, Stigma and Roma Rights. Number: "Professional estimates claim the size of the Roma population to be approximately 450 to 600,000." Other number: "Hungary and the Czech Republic are also similar to the other countries in the region in that some Romani civil society organisations would put the figure even higher. […] some in Hungary would put the number of Roma in the country at 800,000-1,000,000, or up to 10% of the total population of Hungary. […] in some cases they possibly illegitimately inflate the data […]" It is clear from the article that this is an estimation and not a number based on sociological surveys with verifiable data and methodology, moreover, the reliability of the data is questioned in the article itself.

[edit] Discussion

I'd be inclined to cite the 205,720 figure from the 2001 census as the official figure and then note that estimates put the number at up to 600,000 per the 2005 strategic audit. Cordless Larry (talk) 11:53, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

I don't think it is a problem to indicate more data - the point is the reliable primary reference. The basic problem with estimates is that they are based on some kind of "objective" parameters (skin color, way of life and habits etc.) or in other words, prejudice - however, ethnicity is a very subjective characteristic of a person, not something that can be "diagnosed" by others. Timur lenk (talk) 15:11, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

That's fine too - I thought you were asking for us to pick one of the sources, but using all of them would be better. Although I think the final, voter registration, figure should be excluded since it excludes the under 18s (and presumably people who don't choose to register) and therefore is necessarily not an estimate of the number of Roma in Hungary. It could perhaps be mentioned elsewhere in the article, but not in the infobox. Cordless Larry (talk) 15:15, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

That's true, the under-18 segment makes up a much higher ratio in the Romany than in the Hungarian population. Voting enthusiasm can also alter the number. Timur lenk (talk) 15:31, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Stop modifying the numbers, in all other countries the numbers are not according to the official census Rezistenta (talk) 15:35, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

I don't think the way Rezistenta follows is the proper way for editing an encyclopedia. I don't think anyone should give commands to others. Rezistenta's talk page supports my feeling that his/her aim is not to come to a common denominator through dispute. As I mentioned above, there's no such a thing like "real number of romanies" on its own. There are several ways of approaching the question, but the number cited by Rezistenta has no reliable references of any kind. Timur lenk (talk) 17:57, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

From where this double standard? I've already told you that all numbers from infobox are not based on official censuses but more likely on reality, we all know that many Roma people declare a different ethnicity because of their fear for discrimination . Official censuses are far from the real numbers and if you want we can make it as you wish but then we have to modify the numbers from all countries because we must not use double standards Rezistenta (talk) 18:51, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

But the figures listed by Timur lenk above aren't just census figures. They come from a range of sources. Cordless Larry (talk) 21:25, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

I am not using any kind of double standard. Did I propose anywhere, that only Hungarian figures should follow official censuses and sociological estimates? The point of my proposal was to use verifiable data. The papers Rezistenta cited give no source information. What is the evidence, that those unsourced data are better approximations that the well sourced data? And again, ethnicity is not something that can be defined objectively. It is not skin color or habits that make one a member of an ethnicity. For example, Hungary had a considerable Armenian minority in the 19th century that has almost completely assimilated into the Hungarian ethnicity. The reason was not fear of discrimination - it was simply integration. Anyway, why Rezistenta thinks that the explanation of "low" official figures is fear of discrimination? Timur lenk (talk) 12:47, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

You have a valid point of view but I'm talking about the most widely accepted and the most accurate approximations from the real numbers. You're saying we should diminish the numbers only in the case of Hungary just because you think some of Roma people assimilated into hungarian society ? Check the above sources ... expecially the second one I think this pretty much clarifies the whole dispute.... Cheers .....

Estimates of their numbers range from 500,000 to almost a million in the country of 10 million people - RomNews Network Community, Budapest / Hungary

According to the European Roma Rights Center, about 1 million Roma live in substandard housing in Hungary, Habitat for Humanity, Hungary Rezistenta (talk) 16:14, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Rezistenta simply seems not wanting to understand me. "You're saying we should diminish the numbers only in the case of Hungary" - where did I say anything like that? Nowhere. The fact that I checked only the Hungarian figures doesn't mean that I am against the change of figures of other states. Again, my point is to use reliable sources. And again, non of Rezistenta's sources cited above are primary sources, neither they have any reference. Timur lenk (talk) 08:01, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

It's pointless to argue with you... you ignore even the European Roma Rights Center, what more should I say ? Rezistenta (talk) 21:21, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

The European Roma Rights Center gives no reference on the source of the number. The fact that the number is found on a page connected to a Roma organization does not automatically verify it. Rezistenta ignores even official census data, interestingly, only in the case of Hungary. Timur lenk (talk) 21:26, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Not one single country from that list has the numbers from the official censuses, I don't know what you're talking about Rezistenta (talk) 21:37, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

If nothing else, the census figure should be given as one of a number of estimates, for all of the countries listed. Cordless Larry (talk) 21:51, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

The 800 000-1 000 000 figure - repetitively cited by Rezistenta - has no reasonable source. Non of the referenced articles with this figure give any reference to the background of this estimation. Moreover, this article disputes the reliability of this figure, stating: Estimates by Romani organisations have in common with government estimates the following: They attempt to count (or at least estimate) the “real” number of Roma in the country, overriding self-identification (or at least self-identification to the census-taker 5 ), and adding unspecified other criteria. These are presumed to include descent, cultural practices, or other criteria. These efforts to derive a “real” population of Roma legitimately aim to compensate for the evident failings of the census data for matters of policy and resource allocation, and in some cases they possibly illegitimately inflate the data for reasons of heightening prestige (or threat), or other nebulous reasons. However, their common feature is an inability or unwillingness to say clearly what is meant by the term “Roma”. Making such a statement in a European Roma Rights Centre article makes this figure very questionable and inappropriate in an encyclopedic article. Please stick to verifiable data. Timur lenk (talk) 23:10, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

The article indeed is stating the procedure which made the numbers estimates more to reality. Official censuses cannot be taken as real since many Roma people declare differit ethnicity, this is how the estimates are done in all countries, if you delete a raport and a source by European Roma Rights Center I'm afraid I must report you because such behaviour is innapropiate and intolerable . Hungary is not a special case and must follow the procedures of all other countries Rezistenta (talk) 23:24, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

I have no idea about the use of Rezistenta's threat with "reporting" me. Facts speak for themselves. For example: […] in Hungary, although the 2001 census documented 205,720 Roma in Hungary, the most recent report by the Hungarian government to the United Nations Committee on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights does not even mention this fact, but states instead that, “Professional estimates claim the size of the Roma population to be approximately 450 to 600,000.” Is Rezistenta going to "report" the Hungarian government for not writing 800,000-1,000,000 - figures even questioned in the article? I cited the reliable resources on which these government figures are based (see above under References with numbers). By the way, Hungary seems to be a "a special case" for Rezistenta - at least this can be seen in his/her resistance against indicating verifiable (= census and sociological survey) data. Timur lenk (talk) 00:05, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Rezistenta, the ERRC report clearly criticises the figures that you're quoting. Not only does it say that they may be inflated, it states "their common feature is an inability or unwillingness to say clearly what is meant by the term "Roma"." Cordless Larry (talk) 00:29, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

That's because the people known formerly as gypsies don't have a clue about the newly invented name for them, and like I said the procedure of estimating the real number of this populace is the same everywhere, or do you think in Hungary it's special case ?STOP ERASING EUROPEAN ROMA RIGHTS CENTER RAPORT FOR GOD SAKE !!!! Rezistenta (talk) 00:59, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

I am sorry but what kind of argumentation and tone is that? Please study netiquette on use of ALL CAPS. Yelling does not replace arguments. The name “Roma” is of Romany origin, the Roma (or, in your words, Gypsies) refer to themselves as “rom” in the Romany language - it is clearly described in the article. The sources stating a population of 1,000,000 Roma in Hungary give little or no info on "the procedure of estimating the real number of this populace". Again, please stick to verifiable data. Thank you. Timur lenk (talk) 01:34, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

May I ask you the reason why you're feeling sorry for? actually in the etymology section the article cites " There are no historical proofs to clarify the etymology of these words " which means it cannot be stated if they are or not of "Romany origin" . Additionaly you can find the word "gypsies" at the top of the article but probably you were busy playing the innocent card and it may have slipped you. If European Roma Rights Center is not verifiable data I don't know what else could it be verifiable data, furthemore there are many links which come to streghten the European Roma Right raport conclusions. It's obvious that your apparently polite comments are hiding racial preconceptions, and judging by your fierce opposition to include the real numbers emphased by several indisputable sources means you’re presuming that being of Roma ethnicity is something blamable. I want to remind you that all races and ethnicities are equal and your insidious suggestions and assumptions are close enough to pass a very thin line towards Xenophoby and Racism and it’s very sad that someone may think in such shameful and unworthy manner in the year 2008. Rezistenta (talk) 02:41, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

The previous comment was a desperate attempt by Rezistenta to satirize respect for ethnicities other than his own, not to mention rationality in general. If only he were capable of repeating those last two sentences to himself. --Kuaichik (talk) 05:33, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

• The European Roma Rights Centre is not a Scientific Institution - and even if it was that, it would not mean that figures published there should be accepted without doubt. Figures should be used if they are verifiable, that is, well supported with data source and methodology. Figures regarding Roma population in Hungary currently cited in the article are well sourced. The figures Rezistenta prefers are questioned even in the ERRC article.
• Rezistenta stated "the people known formerly as gypsies don't have a clue about the newly invented name for them", but the first sentence in the Etymology section states "Most Roma refer to themselves as rom or rrom, depending on the dialect."
• I am not going to take part in personal attacks. My "apparently polite" tone is rather the standard than Rezistenta's, I guess. It is enough to throw a glance at this. "Le style est l’homme même" Timur lenk (talk) 17:43, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Quelle belle ironie, quel humor.... applaudissement !!! . Actually the situation is very simple : all other countries have exactly the same type of sources and since the article is not taking in consideration the official censuses how could anyone verify their accuracy ? Maybe we're all noobs and you know some socio-demographic procedures unknown to the civilised world and you want to share them with us. The numbers for which I gave alot of vefifiable and encyclopedic sources have the same same amount of credibility like the sources you gave, the difference is that the methodology from your sources are official censuses which in all others cases are not taken in consideration. For the moment I don't have time for such a childish dispute but be sure the neutrality will be respected in this article. Au revoir Rezistenta (talk) 19:28, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

• I had to refresh the link to Rezistenta's Talkpage archives in my above comment since - surprisingly - it has been emptied. Timur lenk (talk) 19:59, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

I apologize for my last comment here. --Kuaichik (talk) 23:33, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] "Generally"?

Re:this - They're "generally arrested...at a much higher rate"? What does that even mean? That sometimes the police say, "Eh, I'm tired of imprisoning 'gypsies'. Let's go after (insert name of some other minority) instead!"?

No offense intended, by the way. Bulgaria is just one of the countries listed in that report. --Kuaichik (talk) 20:27, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

You're right that "generally" isn't a great word in that conext. "Roma in Eastern European countries are arrested for robbery at a much higher rate" would be preferable. Cordless Larry (talk) 23:18, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Population?

Under this term I found "Some authorities[citation needed] recognize five main groups:" a citation is needed. I probably found a relevant article, but I am new here, so would rather discuss it before making changes. So this article http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=31389 has the descriptions of these groups, but it itself has this article as a citation. (Fraser, A. The Gypsies. Oxford: Blackwell Publishers, 1992.)

And I am not sure , which one, we should site, because the later, is not available online. Studentmed (talk) 15:47, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

I think that we should cite the book in this case, since it's the original source. It's not ideal that we don't have access to it to check, but the journal article is reputable enough in itself to be trusted to report what the book says. Cordless Larry (talk) 16:13, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Yes I think you are right. I will cite the book there. 193.6.136.39 (talk) 18:54, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Oops, I hadn't signed in when I signed the above post. I have cited the book. Studentmed (talk) 19:04, 11 June 2008 (UTC)