Talk:Rolfing

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[edit] Rolfing and Structural Integration for Internet Consumers

I would agree that this article needs a major re-write. The second paragraph begins with "skeptics claim..." and that's all fine and dandy but I would say that it's far too soon in the article. Presumably, the reader wants to know what rolfing is and a bit of background on it before getting the opinions of some activists. Furthermore, the claims attributed to the skeptics are themselves completely lacking in any proof or evidence:

"skeptics claim...there is no additional medical value to the program over conventional exercise and massage after taking into account the placebo effect."

I would posit that "skeptics claim" falls under weasel words, too. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.135.170.161 (talk) 01:47, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

What exactly is meant by "medical value" is unclear. If people are somehow "feeling better" and experiencing greater flexibility, that may not be, in the minds of some, a medical value. Some would suggest that a "medical value" is only something that treats some kind of specific disease. If many people are somehow having a better experience of life after going through rolfing, one would imagine that would be a good thing. But it may not necessarily be regarded by some as a "medical value." Is an improved subjective experience of life a "medical value?" If so, how is it quantified or compared to other methods? And if people are feeling better as a result of rolfing where is the evidence that this can be proven to be a result of the placebo effect? (I must say I'm utterly amazed at the mystical power "skeptics" attribute to the placebo effect, all with no evidence that it is indeed what's responsible for the client's improved condition.)

My understanding of rolfing, from most of the literature that I have read and from the rolfers that I have spoken with, leads me to believe that it is primarily concerned with issues such as movement, posture, and flexibility. The emotional aspects, dealing with the notion of traumatic emotions leading to changes in posture, tend to be downplayed or merely suggested as a hypothesis or speculation. I went through a set of 10 rolfing sessions and the rolfer mentioned the *possibility* of emotional issues, but it was presented purely as just that, a *possibility* and he mostly presented it as an epiphenomenon. In summary, my rolfer was focused on issues of biomechanics and seeking to address the physical signs and symptoms that I was presenting and he mentioned issues of emotional release purely as possible side-effect.


I'm the archivist for the Rolf Institute and a faculty member with the Guild for Structural Integration in Boulder Colorado. I'm very interested in re-writing this page to more accurately reflect what Rolfing® Structural Integration is and the accurate history of its development by Dr. Rolf. I'm new to Wikipedia and am interested in how to add: Links to other wikipedia articles External Links Citing Sources Any help would be greatly appreciated. I'll be submitting a revised article (a MAJOR edit) shortly. Thanks again, Jeff Linn Advanced Certified Rolfer® jefflinn@mac.com http://homepage.mac.com/jefflinn

[edit] Change comments by Reda

Hi,I am particularly attached to the Open Source model (I have a Linux server). I have also contributed many Structural Integration (Rolfing) links to the Open Directory Project(ODP), among other categories. And I have maintained a web site specifically for Internet consumers of Structural Integration (Rolfing) information at Structural Integration Consumer Information and Resource Center, since 2001. I also published in 2001 another web page geared towards the professional and institutional community of Structural integration, which is unfortunately still valid: Biomechanics and Structural Integration.

Reda el Andaloussi my main personal web space (I can be contacted from here) Structural Integration practitioner (the Guild for Structural Integration, Boulder, Colorado, 1997) Certified Massage Therapist (Boulder College of Massage therapy, Boulder, Colorado, 1991) Change comments - by Reda

For those following up this section Rolfing, these are some of the recent changes I proposed: The brief description of the technique of Rolfing is placed on the top, instead of after the statement about the service mark. This resource is for consumers first, not lawyers. (switching of paragraph 1 with 2). A more precise description of the origin of the word Rolfing is developed. This description includes the legal service mark, but also the origin of the word coined by consumers before it was registered as a service mark. This information is of historical significance, potentially a legal one too. I thought people ought to know about the fact that Dr. Rolf was a biochemist. Without going into her full biography here, her influence in the study of Collagen based fascia (connective tissue), was significant enough that she woud be refered to as a biochemist. I also included her full name (including middle) and years of birth and death. I thought these pieces of info where a better minimum than just her name with 'Dr.'. The enthusiasm about the 'extensive' level of education required is toned down. The general idea is that this is not a brochure for the Rolf Institute selling how great a training it provides. Plus, objectively, the 480 hours (or so) of Structural Integration specific training at the Rolf Institute or other Structural Integration schools do not justify such an enthusiasm, compared to 1000 and more hours provided at Massage Therapy schools for example, some of which include Structural Integration and much more in terms of Structural Bodywork. Time has passed since the creation of the Institute in the 1970's by Dr. Rolf, when the Institute's curriculum was then among the top ones, in sheer weight compared to Massage schools throughout the US. About emotional releases, I am pretty sure that classical Rolfing (meaning such as what people mean when they say 'Rolfing', just like they meant it when consumers invented the word) makes it clear that Rolfing is a Structural contract, any emotional discharge is incidental. SUch releases while acknowledged are not actively sought out. Actually, disciples of Dr. Rolf have been categorical about not actively seeking 'cathartic' releases. So I made a precision in that regard. Now if Rolfing (the service mark) no longer meanse the work as taught by Dr;. Rolf, then that would be a big piece of info. So far. the Institute has maintained a format close to the original. My humble personal understanding is that if the Institute tried to distort the meaning of the word, it could face legal challenges over the srvice mark. Therefore if now the legal label implies systematic emotional cathartic releases, people ought to know about it. Same for the format of the series. A basic 10 series is still my understanding of basic Rolfing, with Advanced 5-series. If the Institute no longer teach the 10 series, people should know. Until it is official, I specified the classical number of sessions, which was left at the practitioner's discretion in the previous version of the article. That beiing said, and as a bodyworker myself, I understand that there are situations where the classical number isn't always possible... That is why I left the statements about the fact that the Rolfer prescribes a (undetermined) number of session. I simply specified what the classical format is in terms of number of sessions. I added a link to idaprolf.org a resource dedicated to the Internet Consumers. I try there to provide specific answers to the question of alternatives to Rolfing, as I experienced that crucial question myself as a consumer when I needed the work and I was thousands of miles away from Boulder Colorado, where these 2 schools are. The list of school I have listed there is more important than the list at the ODP (dmoz.org). Please, either provide a more useful list of schools, or link to sites which do, like my site. Admittedly even my site idaprolf.org isn't 'complete' but it is among the most useful list available, of links to schools which teach Structural Integration, allowing consumers to a training info, or simply practitioners in locations where only one school for example has graduates, but where other schools do not have graduates. Some minor turns of sentences were made too, nothing fancy, just tried to simplify some sentences. Hopefully, we will get it right eventually. How about Dr. Rolf's biography page, and generic Structural Integration? Reda my personal web space (I can be reached directly from there)

I dont get any info at idaprolf.org just a closed email service ==SmithBlue 30-10-06==

[edit] POV

I presume the title is "Dr." Rolf only because she got a PhD in biochemistry, not because she is a profesionally certified medical doctor, so I added an explanation about that, and changed the proper-noun references to reduce confusion on that point. Otherwise, the article is in danger of creating a false sense of authority. Since there is disagreement about whether or not this kind of therapy is bogus or not, I changed items reported as facts to be claims, to maintain NPOV. There remains some work to be done; the later parts of the article still read a bit like an advertisement. -- Beland 00:54, 12 February 2006 (UTC) Ask your chemist friend what a person with a PhD is called - I think they'll tell you it's Doctor.

Meddling with the proper nouns and nitpicking about whether she was a "real" doctor or not is not maintaining a neutral point of view, but unsubtly advocating a contrary one. Wikipedians generally leave the sincerely held beliefs and practices of others alone, and comment on their likelihood, if at all, in criticism sections. So we don't, for example, litter quibbles about whether Jesus was a "real" messiah throughout every article on Christianity, nor mention incessantly that some traditions consider the conflation of Jesus with God idolatrous. "Rolfing," Structural Integration, was developed in the Fifties, when we were still being told by medical doctors that smoking was good for you. It's not at all surprising that there is active discussion of the role played by the fascia in the overall well-being of any particular individual among Rolfing practitioners, and it's likely that further scientific or empirical discoveries may improve or at least modify their understanding of their art. Lee-Anne 04:30, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Phosphatidate/phosphatides

I asked a chemist; he seemed to think these were more or less the same thing. -- Beland 01:10, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] POV and Skepticism

I moved the "skeptics say" paragraph to the end of the article. I don't know anything about Rolfing -- but in my experience of Wikipedia, criticisms tend to come under their own heading. I took off the POV tag because I didn't see the POV. Katsam 10:14, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

"Skeptics say" are weasel words, and should be replaced with a citation or removed and the section marked as uncited.71.218.224.66 20:19, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

It's clear that many of the words used to describe Rolfing were thinly-veiled attacks on the technique, and probably on osteopathy by indirection. I myself am very sceptical of many of the claims and theoretical bases of osteopathy and its associated disciplines, but may find it somewhat easier to keep editorializing out of portions of an article where they don't belong. I added a citation from a somewhat sceptical Rolfer which is available on the Web, but didn't link it because of the caveat on the page. Added criticism that seemed somewhat less vague and unfocused. Lee-Anne 10:43, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Balance

This entry would be relatively free of POV criticism and constant modification if it strictly defined Rolfing or was merely part of the Structural Integration page. Manipulation of the fascia can, and does, remedy many pains and debilitating injuries. This was known prior to the birth of Ida Rolf and is given in the form of advice by medical doctors to their patients or referrals to pt/ot. I found this page linked in Wikipedia from Iliotibial_Band_Syndrome . The assertions there are that "Deep-tissue massage or Rolfing may help break up scar tissue that forms." I'm sure many pages defining 'aches, pains, training injuries, massage, chiropractic, etc...' will eventually link to the Structural Integration page and from there to here. Individuals drawn to this page are likely to find it through investigation of scientific matters or through holistic approach. Synthesis articles must contain a level of balance for the purpose of readability, if the idea behind Wikipedia is disinformation then remove POV anywhere.

Where in this entry is the notion that one may wish to seek the service of a Licensed or Board Certified Medical Doctor for the treatment or evaluation of specific injuries and health conditions? Given the mixed reputation of chiropractors, massage therapists, and other individuals promoting controversial treatments it seems the omission of such a disclaimer or statement of fact is a blatant attempt by the author to leave the reader completely ignorant of the difference of opinion regarding Rolfing within the Medical Community. Failure to provide an opposing point of view in an issue as controversial as this is akin to placing blinders on a horse. If you do not want your work trashed, then recognize criticisms.

Merely seeing the trademark symbol, the words 'service mark', and the first word of development being 'Dr.' makes this entry look like a scientific paper and authoritative source. Were I to look through the physician's desk reference I would likely find a page of similar appearance with an illustration of chemical structure under the first heading. Even lists of citations given by many in support of 'Rolfing' and all the benefits of such procedures do not have a genesis in the work of Rolf or agree with the thesis central to 'Rolfing'. What is often seen is either a study regarding manipulation of the fascia over a period of time, that concludes the exercise reduces an injury OR a study equating a healthy body with a healthy mind.

I have no interest in disproving 'Rolfing'. I think the article is unbalanced because it has virtually no contrast and is presented in a visual manner that gives the reader the impression it is a scientific paper; regardless of the validity. Dumb down the appearance, limit the content to history of Rolf, or add the fact that 'yes, Medical Doctors' do exist and there is substantial controversy regarding the theories presented herein. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 63.195.181.245 (talk) 23:19, 17 January 2007 (UTC).

[edit] structural Integration - capitals?

Dont know if SI should have upper or lower case for first letters - am certain both should be the same case. Will change (back) to SI if no other ideas offered. ==SmithBlue 30-10-06==

[edit] Ida Rolf developed a method - source required

"Ida Rolf developed a method of organizing the human structure in relationship with gravity..." This assertion needs a quoted source, specifically from a independent authority, otherwise the skeptics are going to change it back to "Rolf claimed to have developed..." SmithBlue Wednesday, 23:56, 22 November 2006 UTC

Actually, the asserted quote could imply Ida Rolf had patented the act of standing and had registered trademarks on posture.

[edit] (→Development - decades are not possesive) ?

http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/002436.html Language Log - Grammar cranks" of the right. "The New York Times house style, for instance, keeps the apostrophe in for names of decades; a search on the Times archive finds five examples of "the 80's" in Sunday's paper alone." So not incorrect but unfashionable?

[edit] Style

At the end of the article the writer used expressions that may seem appropriate in other social or literary contexts, but certainly not in an encyclopaedia, which after all is a SCHOLARLY project with a centuries-long tradition (though not infrequently one would not recognise this when reading WP. "contributions"...). I have tried to remove that flaw, without altering the thought expressed (to which I do not object in any way) (e.g. that x reaches a deep level "in humans", as a neutral expression, instead of "all of us", which sounds distinctly "touchy-feely sermon-like" etc.).

Regards, Sophophilos147.142.186.54 14:04, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Linking Caveat Concern

The caveat "ATTENTION! Please do not add links without discussion and consensus on the talk page. Undiscussed links will be removed." is unreasonable.

One of the strengths of the Wikipedia community is the ability of individuals to contribute to articles without needing to seek prior consensus. Judging from the links currently posted, this caveat could be interpreted as the muzzling of non-canonical or opposing viewpoints.

In the Wikipedia spirit, qualification of contributions is not the provision of a single judgmental source, even if this source is 'consensus on the talk page'. Rather it is the responsibility of individuals both within and outside of any group with an interest in improving the article material.

Discussion and verification by an interested group regarding the fitness of contributions is a valuable asset to any Wikipedia article. However, it is not a group's position to be the self-appointed sole arbiter of material. If there is concern about abuse or excessive degradation of the quality of an article necessitating tighter control, this is a matter that should be flagged for concern, not a self-designated exclusive responsibility. Splendide 17:23, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Its been removed, however, there are no binding decisions on Wikipedia, especially if links are never discussed on the talk page.--Hu12 20:54, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Removal of Neutrality Dispute Badge

To the best of my knowledge, all stated concerns about neutrality have been addressed. I have removed the Neutrality Dispute badge.

The following concerns have been addressed:


"==Rolfing and Structural Integration for Internet Consumers=="

..."skeptics claim..."... it's far too soon in the article. Presumably, the reader wants to know what rolfing is and a bit of background on it before getting the opinions of some activists.

...What exactly is meant by "medical value" is unclear... how is it quantified or compared to other methods? ...where is the evidence...


"== Change comments by Reda =="

...The brief description of the technique of Rolfing is placed on the top, instead of after the statement about the service mark.

...I thought people ought to know about the fact that Dr. Rolf was a biochemist... her full name (including middle) and years of birth and death.

Because Rolf has a biography page, cv details should go there.


"== POV =="

... she got a PhD in biochemistry, not because she is a profesionally certified medical doctor...

Covered in Rolf's biography page.


"== POV and Skepticism =="

..."Skeptics say"... should be replaced with a citation or removed and the section marked as uncited.


"==Balance=="

...strictly defined Rolfing...

Manipulation of the fascia can, and does, remedy many pains and debilitating injuries...

I was unable to find a suitable medical reference, and it doesn't add clarity about the practice or therapeutic claims of Rolfing, so the claim has been 'toned down' to just reference myofascial release.

Where in this entry is the notion that one may wish to seek the service of a Licensed or Board Certified Medical Doctor...

...there is substantial controversy regarding the theories presented herein.

[edit] Rolf not Dr Rolf

After introducing Rolf as Dr Rolf the first time it is redundant to continue the prefix. Albert Schweitzer is refered throughout the article on him as Schweitzer. If its good enough for Albert its good enough for Ida. SmithBlue 07:22, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Removing external link to "Guild for Structural Integration"

The relevance of this link to the article is not clear. The Guild is not mentioned in the article body and seems to have been included as it is in the same field as Rolfing -(the field of Structural Integration). However as Structural Integration has its own article it seems superfluous here and hence I am deleting it. SmithBlue 07:31, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Precious little criticism under "Criticism"

Is there really no scientific criticism about the validity of Rolf's theories and the benefits of these practices? I find it hard to believe. The criticism section contains almost no actual criticism. Kronocide (talk) 17:58, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Better explanation needed

The introduction to this article could use a rewrite - it seems to assume familiarity with the subject matter. At the moment, the first sentence reads, "Rolfing is a system of soft tissue manipulation, with the objective of realigning the body structurally and harmonizing its fundamental movement patterns in relation to gravity" - without explaining what that means! I've read this article and still don't have a clear idea of what 'Rolfing' is - as far as I can tell, it seems to be a kind of massage/exercise-based therapeutic activity, but I don't understand how it works or what it consists of. Could someone please rewrite this article to provide more context/better explanation? Thank you. Terraxos (talk) 02:01, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Manipulative methods info box

I removed this as it took up a significant amount of space at the top of the article and filled it with material only tangentially related to the topic at hand. Such material might better go in the "See also" section if it was relevant. SmithBlue (talk) 12:18, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Issue tags May 2008

Considering that there has been no addition to this talk page since March, I find it odd that the article suddenly deserves these tags. Considering that the person who added all those issue tags has never shown any involvement in the article before, and gave no explanation for the tags, I am inclined to regard it as an unjustified, hostile "drive-by shooting" edit. A person who had good will and sincere interest in improving Wikipedia would make some effort to improve the article, and communicate on the talk page, not just slap stickers on it. If some cogent explanation of why these tags were added is not given within a few days, I will remove the tags.Bertport (talk) 14:33, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Because, of course, when an article is written using exactly one source, which is promotional and not reliable, it should be treated with the utmost respect by other editors, and anyone tagging it is clearly in the wrong.
Sarcasm aside, this article really needs some better sources. Using a single promotional website for writing everything really isn't a good idea. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 15:27, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for the inline tags. I've removed some of the issue tags from the header. I agree that the article needs more citations from different sources, but the overall tone of the article is nothing like advertising. Statements about benefits of the system are prefaced with "Practitioners claim" type qualifiers, and none of them are pie in the sky, anyway. Also, the self-published tag doesn't make sense here. The article is not selling the Rolf Institute. Take a look at, say, University of Washington. Some of the citations are from UW websites, but it's not considered a self-publishing problem. Bertport (talk) 13:42, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
It needs better sourcing, and that'll presumably also fix the problem of limited viewpoint. However, yes, it's been edited a fair bit, and many of the tags that used to apply just don't apply now. I'm... not an expert on massage, so probably can't help much with the sourcing, but at least I can point out what needs sourced, and hope someone does. =) Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 13:59, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Sources

I saw this on the fringe/noticeboard; here are some sources to help make this article respectable, rather than an advert:

  • Jones TA. Department of Physical Medicine and Rehabilitation, University of California. "Rolfing". PMID 15458753. Abstract: "Rolfing, or structural integration, is one of many types of manipulative therapy. This article describes the principles and history of Rolfing and reviews current research. Only a few clinical trials specifically have looked at Rolfing. Related research on deep tissue massage and myofascial release also is reviewed. Rolfing has a physiologic impact on the peripheral nervous system and on myofascial structures. Important clinical outcome measures, such as pain levels and function, have not been looked at specifically, however, in clinical trials."
  • Caroline Rea, RN, BS, MS "Bodywork and Manual Therapy" "Rolfing, a form of deep tissue massage that practitioners use to realign the tissues that cover and connect all muscles and body organs (fascia). Bringing the body back into proper alignment is thought to reduce pain, improve flexibility and energy, and reduce muscle tension."
  • Ida P. Rolf, Ph.D. "Rolfing and Physical Reality", Healing Arts Press (November 1, 1990). ISBN 0892813806.
  • Ida P. Rolf, Ph.D. "Rolfing: Reestablishing the Natural Alignment and Structural Integration of the Human Body for Vitality and Well-Being", Healing Arts Press; Revised edition (October 1, 1989). ISBN 0892813350.
  • The Australian Rolfing Association
  • Google Scholar entries (careful, some entries are for this as a last name)
    • JOHN T. COTTINGHAM, STEPHEN W. PORGES, and TODD LYON. "Effects of Soft Tissue Mobilization (Rolfing Pelvic Lift) on Parasympathetic Tone in Two Age Groups", The Journal of American Physical Therapy Assn, 68:3 (March 1988), as reprinted on http://www.rolfing-craig-tracy.com/PDF/Two_age_groups.pdf
    • JOHN T. COTTINGHAM, STEPHEN W. PORGES, and KENT RICHMOND. "Shifts in Pelvic Inclination Angle and Parasympathetic Tone Produced by Rolfing Soft Tissue Manipulation"", The Journal of American Physical Therapy Assn, 68:9 (September 1988) as reprinted on http://www.rolfing-craig-tracy.com/PDF/TissueManipulation.pdf

HTH --Faith (talk) 19:00, 22 May 2008 (UTC)