Talk:Rohan

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[edit] Inspiration

Dear Ricimer, you insist on having this paragraph on the Rhohirrim:

Many aspects of Rohan's culture and history seem to be inspired by the medieval Anglo-Saxons. Tolkien was a great expert in the Anglo-Saxon language and one of the definative authorities on the Anglo-Saxon epic Beowulf. Beowulf was based on ancient oral tradition which originated long before the ancestors of the Anglo-Saxons left mainland Europe to invade England. There are many similarities between Rohan and Beowulf; King Theoden is much like King Hrothgar, and Meduseld matches the description of the mead-hall Heorot. - The Rohirrim have been described by the Lord of the Rings film adapation production team as "Beowulf with horses". Tolkien was a great lover of the Anglo-Saxon culture of England, which was swept away by the Norman invasion's triumph at the Battle of Hastings. A key factor in the Norman victory over the Anglo-Saxons was that they had mounted warriors, which the Anglo-Saxons lacked. The Rohirrim can be seen as a fantastic re-imagining by Tolkien of Anglo-Saxon culture, with the addition of a "rider-culture" element that may have allowed the Anglo-Saxon culture to defeat the Normans, and survive and thrive through history.

First of all, Beowulf is based on events that happened in Scandinavia 50-100 years after the Anglo-Saxons arrived in England and Tolkien knew that full well. Moreover, the film adaptation team insisted on depicting the Rohirrim as Vendel Age Swedish warriors making them "Vikings on horseback" as you can hear Peter Jackson call the Rohirrim on the the "making of" films in the extended editions. I have so many times heard English nationalists state that the Rohirrim are Anglo-Saxons that I am tired of it. The only thing that you can trace to the Anglo-Saxons in the Rohirrim is that he represented their language with Anglo-Saxon.--Wiglaf 12:02, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Wiglaf, I'm not sure about this but there are other people on here more knowlegable about this than either of us ("I only know a quarter of all there is to know...", etc). And I'd like it if another group seriously sat down and ironed this out. Although, yes, stylistically certain sounds, costumes, and architecture are from diverse scandinavian sources, there is a DISTINCT touch of Beowulf in the whole thing--->case in point the Heorot/Meduseld and Hrothgar/Theoden relations. Someone else who's a mod really needs to work this out.--Ricimer, 3:28, June 26, 2005 (EST
Now, AFAIK, there is nothing in Beowulf that sets the Danish building of Heorot apart from other Scandinavian and Germanic buildings, and could you be more specific about the similarities between Theoden and the Danish king Hrothgar, please?--Wiglaf 20:36, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Also, please site the source for "Rohirian"; EVERWHERE I've checked says "Rohirric" --Ricimer, 3:28, June 26, 2005 (EST)
It should of course be Rohirric.--Wiglaf 20:36, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Inspiration

Ricimer seems mindbent on a single inspiration for the Rohirrim, so I add a few links for easy consultation since s/he seems to have a limited list of sources:[1], (spam filter insisted I remove a link to suite101.com, but I think this is a valid link for this talk page (not for articles though, so the old link was "http COLON // www DOT suite101 DOT com / article DOT cfm / tolkien / 26924/ (remove all spaces and convert capitalised bits) Carcharoth 22:42, 21 January 2007 (UTC)), [2]--Wiglaf 8 July 2005 23:49 (UTC)

[edit] disambiguation

Googlehits and fancruft notwithstanding, I am not sure that Tolkien's Rohan should get the main namespace, Rohan, pushing the real-world Rohan (family) away. I suggest Rohan should be at Rohan (Middle-Earth), and Rohan (disambiguation) should be here. dab (ᛏ) 14:40, 10 September 2005 (UTC)

Agreed with move, even despite your use of the malicious "fancruft". Jordi·✆ 15:30, 10 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Merger

I believe the article Rohirrim doesn't contain much information not listed here and should be contained within the article about the land which these people come from, similar to the way Gondor's page is set up. Burning phoneix 22:36, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree with the merger: the two articles overlap a great deal. Coemgenus 15:02, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
I agree too Bryan 11:39, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
Well, could someone do the merger? I'm too much of a newb to do it ;(. Burning phoneix 10:05, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Should this article maybe be merged with Rohirrim, and just have one redirect to the other?

[edit] Rohan origin

I'm not sure whether Tolkien coined 'Rohan' independently, but it is a common name in Sanskrit/Hindi, (cfr [3]) -- Gyan

Well, the Riders' language is supposedly based on Old English, so I doubt he was looking for a Sanskrit source. -- Zoe

Quite possible. According to this page, it is also an Irish word. -- Gyan

I thought that it was a region in Brittany -- Error

The Ducs de Rohan are a major French noble family. Not sure where from, exactly. john 09:36 May 7, 2003 (UTC)

From what I read, there is a Rohan castle somewhere in Brittany. The castle was the house (manor?) of the Rohan family which rose in the aristocratic ladder. -- Error
Quite possibly. There are actually two Rohan families. The Ducs de Rohan are from the Rohan-Chabot family, who are not technically Rohans, but Chabots descended from the Rohans in the female line. The actual Rohan family seems to mostly live in Austria and Belgium nowadays. Perhaps we should add stuff about these families and disambiguate? john 03:32 May 9, 2003 (UTC)
Probably, but I couldn't tell much without infringing copyright. My paper Encyclopedia had an article for the family with at least 13 names. The branches seem to be the Porhoët (the original), Rohan-Chabot, Rohan-Guémenée, Rohan-Rochefort, Soubise and Rohan-Rohan. Deserving an individual article Henri II, duke of Rohan (also named Henri I (!?) ), Louis, knight of Rohan, Louis René Edouard, prince of Rohan and Maria Bertha of Rohan -- Error
A question: using a paper encyclopedia for *factual information* can't be illegal, can it? For instance, if I use Britannica to discover when Henry Campbell-Bannerman was elected to parliament, that isn't any kind of copyright violation, because the copyright only extends to the words used, not to the information contained in those words. Or is that wrong? john 01:11 May 10, 2003 (UTC)
You're quite right - facts cannot be copyrighted, only the presentation of those facts. We wouldn't get very far if we had to rely on primary sources! --Camembert
Be careful, though. Your source is now another encyclopedia, and that doesn't look very good. Ok for verification, bad as source. GayCom
Mmm...primary sauces! (-- All responsibility for the preceding remark is disavowed by Lee M 19:07, 19 Aug 2003 (UTC))

[edit] Banner

Small quibble with the banner as shown here -- as I recall, Tolkien clearly states that the banner is a white horse on a green field. Not sure what the batik-y looking thing here is, but it doesn't seem to square with that description. Bookgrrl 02:28, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

That's the banner as it was portrayed in the Peter Jackson movies. Obviously they made some stylistic alterations. If a freely available version closer to Tolkien's description can be found that'd be an improvement. --CBDunkerson 10:54, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
In the meanwhile, I altered the figure caption very slightly, just to clarify - hope that's OK! Bookgrrl 15:25, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
I seem to recall that even Jackson had white horses on green, why not pick one of those. Any simple white horse on green background will do, the solar batik thing is just a distraction. dab (ᛏ) 22:42, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
I think the background is intended as Very Dark Green (not exactly a heraldic colour), see [4], [5], I suppose we should fiddle with the image's color-curves a little bit. It is pointless to show a white horse on black, however nicely executed, when the only thing we know about the banner is that it shows a running white horse on green. Better to have no image at all. dab (ᛏ) 22:54, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Quick (Anon) note on the LOTR:TT flag depicted. This is the Flaggen Pehl collectible reproduction based on the Peter Jackson films - and it's incorrect only because they made the field black. The films DO depict a white horse on a Hunter green field. I'll throw up screen caps from Two Towers for proof sometime later. -- 24.39.192.122 18:21, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Inaccuracy in the "History" section

The second paragraph in the History section states In the twenty-first century, a remnant tribe of such Northmen calling itself the Éothéod moved from the valleys of Anduin to the north west of Mirkwood, clearing out what remained of the recently defeated witch kingdom of Angmar, east of the Misty Mountains. While there, some dispute arose between them and the Dwarves over the treasure-hoard of Scatha the dragon. This is geographically impossible. Angmar was west of the Misty Mountains, so how can its remnants be east of the Misty Mountains in the valleys of the Anduin?72.27.6.86 02:03, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Portrayal in Adaptations - remove "black" critique

We need to remove this linked weird small review blasting them for "always wearing black"....of course they wear black in Two Towers, the King's son has just died and its a time of mourning and there is a funeral! Throughout the last 2 films, YES, they do wear bright clothing....Eowyn wears WHITE, Eomer and the other rides have tanned red leather streatched voer their armor, Eowyn's got a green dress too....this guy just critiqued a FUNERAL SCENE and said they looked drab as a rule. Yikes.

[edit] Disambiguation again

I see that User:Dab already suggested this more than a year ago, and met with no objections, but it seems to me that the real life French noble family Rohan is of sufficient importance as to deny an imaginary kingdom status as the primary topic here. Would people object to a move of this page to Rohan (Middle Earth), and a move of Rohan (disambiguation) to here? john k 16:17, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Mercia

Tolkien was from the West Midlands which is part of the old kingdom of Mercia. The Rohirrim don't speak "a language based on Anglo-Saxon", it is Anglo-Saxon specifically Mercian. Even the Mark=Mercia. The older riders have Gothic names to indicate the evolution of the culture.

Tolkien's point was to make the Rohirrim represent the old English, since Old English literature largely did not exist he had to use Scandinavian sources but the riders are certainly not "Vikings on horses".

The only thing which is not a reconstructive of England is the landscape which is an idealised version of "Gothia".GordyB 14:47, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Proposed Deletion

The article was proposed for deletion because there were no secondary sources or references independent of the fictional world. On a simple google book/scholar search, I found [6], [7], [8], and plenty more. There is significant literary criticism of Tolkein, as well as analysis of the LOTR world. Please take to AFD if you still believe the page should be deleted. Recurring dreams 07:27, 18 August 2007 (UTC)