Talk:Rodryg Dunin

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[edit] Translation needed

Dunin Rodryg (1870—1928), rolnik i przemysłowiec, był jednym z wybitniejszych pionierów postępu techniki rolniczej i przemysłu rolnego w Wielkopolsce. Urodził się 26 VI w Mar-szewie.w pow. pleszewskim, jako syn Stanisława, uczestnika powstania z r. 1863, i Marii z Bara-nowskich. Był żonaty z Łucją Taczanowską, primo voto Stanisławową Nieżychowską. Zmarł w Poznaniu 26 X. Osierocił troje dzieci; starszy syn Stanisław poległ śmiercią walecznych w r. 1920 pod Maciejowicami.

Już jako uczeń Gimnazjum Marii Magdaleny w Poznaniu brał czynny udział w tajnym ruchu oświatowo-społecznym młodzieży. Wyższym studiom rolniczym poświęcił się w Czechach (Decin) oraz w Niemczech (Lipsk). Po ślubie osiedlił się w majętności żony Granówku w powiecie kościańskim i dzięki wybitnej fachowości oraz wytrwałej pracy doprowadził ten warsztat rolny do wzorowego stanu. Przez założenie gorzelni, kolejki polowej, a zwłaszcza w r. 1912 pierwszej w Poznańskiem deszczownianej instalacji do sztucznego nawadniania pól, dał się poznać w najszerszych kołach polskiego rolnictwa, jako pełen inicjatywy rolnik na wskroś postępowy, który chociaż śmiało wprowadzał inowacje techniczne, przecież dzięki wyjątkowemu zmysłowi krytycznemu umiał zachowywać ekonomiczną równowagę. Pod światły jego kierunek garnęły się liczne zastępy młodych rolników, a ówczesne ośrodki zawodowego postępu rolniczego, zarówno w Poznaniu jak i w Warszawie, zapraszały go do referowania aktualnych zagadnień.

Prócz tej fachowo rolniczej działalności, uzupełnianej przez fachową publicystykę, nie ustawał on w pracy społecznej. Zakładał po wsiach zawodowo-oświatowe kółka rolnicze, organizował i wygłaszał w nich odczyty i pogadanki, a przede wszystkim na terenie ochronki wybudowanej swoim sumptem w Granówku ochraniał dziatwę polską przed germanizacją, z udziałem swej małżonki oraz swych dzieci. Po odstąpieniu Granówka pasierbom wykupił w r. 1923 z niemieckich rąk znanego hakatysty Tiedemanna majętność Ruchocice pod Grodziskiem.

Piastował cały szereg wybitnych stanowisk w wielkopolskich organizacjach przemysłowo-rolnych. Był współzałożycielem i prezesem Rady

Polski Słownik Biografliczny, Tom VI, zesz. l

Naczelnej Spółki Akcyjnej »Akwawit«, która powstała z wykupna niemiecko-żydowskich rektyfikacji, radcą Poznańskiego Ziemstwa Kredytowego, członkiem rad nadzorczych wielu instytucji, i w. i.

„Dziennik Poznański”, nr 250 1928; »Gazeta Rol nicza nr 44—5 1928; Informacje ustne od p. Kata rzyny Załęskiej. Tadeusz Vetulani

Elonka 18:15, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Translation per request. I will also add that Polski Słownik Biograficzny is a very reliable work.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  04:23, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Dunin Rodrug, farmer and industrialist, was one of the most notable pioneers in agricultural techniques and agricultural industry in Wielkopolska. Born on 26 VI in... as son of Stanislaw, participant of 1863 uprising and... Maried to... nee... . Died in Poznan on 26 X leaving three children; the oldest son Stanislaw died in combat in 1920 at Maciejowice.

As a student of... he took active part in the secret educational movement of youth. Studied in... After marriage settled in... and greatly improved the farm. He founded an alcohol factory, local train, and in 1912 first in Poznan area rain-based irrigation installation; he becane known in the wider circles of Polish farming as a modern and innovative farmer introducing new techniques but also balancing them with tradition. Under his enlightened mentorship many young farmers flocked, and contemporary centers of farmer education, in Poznan as well as in Warsaw, invited him to lecture.

In addition to his expert agricultural activities, backed by expert publications, he was a social activist. In many villages he founded a training-educational circles, he organized and gave speeches and discussions, and in Granówek he saved Polish children from germanization, with help of his family. In 1923 he bought from hakatist Tiedmann... a mansion in...

He had many notable positions in Wielkpolska agricultural-industrial organizations. He cofounded and presided over... "Akawit" company... and was the councilor in the ... credit organization... member of the board of many institutions

[edit] Translation

I didn't see that. I'll try to translate it. Is there any reason for which Łucja is called Lucia in the article?--SylwiaS | talk 03:26, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

Yes, that is what she is called by her English-speaking descendants. To hear someone pronounce the Polish version (or see someone spell it) evokes a reaction of, "Who's that?"  ;) Elonka 04:03, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Done. Well, I hope you pronounce her in Spanish, because it sounds really silly in Polish. But shouldn't then Łucja be given as her name, as that's what she was really called, and the name used privately by her family in brackets?--SylwiaS | talk 04:46, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
BTW Ask if something is not clear. I had problems with some things which I'm not familiar with, so if it sounds wrong maybe we can work out good equivalents. Also, there are two institutions which names I didn't translate, because I don't know how should they be translated.--SylwiaS | talk 04:50, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
One more thing, lol. Do you mean by Blitzkrieg the September Campaign?--SylwiaS | talk 05:15, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Quick job on the translation, thank you! I combined them in with the other information that I had. I'm not sure what to do with those institution names either though.  :/ Oh, and by Blitzkrieg I mean the tragedies of September 1939. I don't know exactly which battle it was, but it was part of the very fast eastward move across Poland by the Germans. Thanks again, Elonka 05:37, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Yes, all the battles are called September Campaign. Blitzkrieg is a military doctrine. I think one cannot die during that. --SylwiaS | talk 05:59, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
I routinely hear the phrase in English (shrug). In any case, I have no preference what it is called. Elonka 06:17, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Ok, I changed it. Well, some journalists are renown for using incorrect terms like "Polish camps".--SylwiaS | talk 06:29, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

As this appears to be the only source upon which any of our material on Rodryg Dunin can be based, it would be ideal if the translation at which we'd arrived can be shared here on this page.Proabivouac 20:02, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Mrs. Katarzyna Załęska

SylwiaS, I was excited to see this reference. Can you tell me more about it? Mrs. Zaleska was one of my great-aunts, a family historian. I know that she knew the names of the people in these unidentified paintings, but I've been unable to find anyone who remembers what she knew, and I was unaware that she had any writings available. Can you please tell me more about this source? Elonka 19:15, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

I'm afraid I can't. It's just a translation of the text you gave above. It was a text and two references. One of them was Polski słownik biograficzny, which was already given as a reference in the article, and the other one was the daily, so I added it to the article. It seems that a journalist from the daily talked to Mrs. Załęska and the information she gave was written down then and used as a source to write the text I translated. All you can do is writing to National Library in Warsaw and they should find the newspaper for you. They can scan it and email it to you. Do you want a link to them?--SylwiaS | talk 19:26, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Yes please. Also, is there an index somewhere that might show if she's done any other writing anywhere? 1928 is also the year that Rodryg died, so there may be other obituaries in local newspapers -- I just honestly have no idea how to search for such a thing. Elonka 19:31, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Wait, it's not clear from the information above if the information she gave was used in one of the dailies or the author of the text above talked to her personally and used all of the written sources plus the information she gave to write his article. Can you check how exactly it was written in the original version? And yes, it seems that both information in the dailies were published in 1928. I'll check the link for you.--SylwiaS | talk 19:35, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Here it is: www.bn.org.pl . It's the main place which keeps all the old newspapers. Last time I was checking them their site in English wasn't ready, but you may email them at the address: biurozam@bn.org.pl Just give them all the information you have here and that you look for articles about Rodryg Dunin. They can make a digital photo at request for 7 złoty = about $2. However, since those two newpapers are from 1928 it's possible that they didn't survive the war. Still, it's worth checking.--SylwiaS | talk 19:45, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Original research?

Since the article was created by a descendant, and includes her own self-published family tree as a reference, I think significantly more neutral references are needed here.--208.181.90.67 20:29, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

This was discussed previously; while footnotes would be nice we have no reason to suspect any malpractice.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  02:09, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
Says Piotr the Pole? Come on, guys, we need a trusted third party to work on this who has no ties to this at all. Even I am too tied to this, as I know Elonka personally. Mindraker 18:01, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
Please do not personally attack other editors. If you know Elonka personally, it might be best if you did not work on articles related to her (see WP:COI). Unless there is a reason to believe this information is false, standard biographical information gleaned from personal websites is appropriate. Shell babelfish 02:36, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
This is the third [1]) time I have addressed your comments regarding this issue. The information regarding the marriage date did not appear in the alleged offline translation; I can therefore question it. The translation is poor; I can therefore question it. The material cannot be verified by other sources; I can therefore question it. The source was improperly cited; I can therefore question it. I did; and it is deleted. Mindraker 13:36, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

I believe you're misunderstanding the first person's statement, they were talking about the fact that most of the material was referenced to a website run by this person's ancestor. This has nothing to do with your new issue with the Polish Biographical Dictionary - the comment was made back in June when the article looked much different.

You're disputing a source you haven't even seen - you're still calling it "alleged" - please assume good faith of others and stop suggesting we're lying to you. The snippet above and the "poor translation" are not the only reference for the information the article has - there is also no reason to suggest that the article's text was written based only on the above translation. I know that I never used the above translation for any of my work on the article.

You may question something and ask for a more complete source - I provided it to you at your talk page. After this you deleted the information yet again. Is there now some new reason you object to having properly referenced information in this article?

Please address my questions about why you are suddenly editing a host of articles related to someone you know? Shell babelfish 22:53, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

  • -I'll assume you mean "descendant", who is "Elonka Dunin". That website falls under "Original Research", and needs to be verifiable. So far, I have not been able to find other sources -- except for a "family tree website", but I was informed that the family tree website could not be used for the same reasons.

-The English translation[2] of the alleged offline source is questionable, at best. Some of the words aren't even there. People using this as a source is dubious, not to mention the fact that just because we have him on a "list" of tomes doesn't mean that the "information" cited is accurate. Show me a source so that I can verify the information. Where is this information? In Wikipedia. You're essentially citing Wikipedia, not the PBD.

-The issue of citing the translation or the original work of the PBD comes up. I haven't even gotten to that issue with the questionable translation of the PBD.

-Wait... there's no information you can cite on list of tomes, and yet you attribute an entire paragraph to a 'list'? Come on, guys I was giving you the benefit of the doubt on this one. Back to the drawing board. Mindraker 11:30, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

The List of tomes is references so that people can quickly confirm that Dunin is in Tome 6 (something you requested confirmation of). Conveniently he's the first entry in the tone so appears in an index. The source we are citing is Tome 6 Subtome 1 of the Polish Biographical disctionary. The quality of the translation is neither here nor there - it does not affect the quality of the original Polish entry. If you wish a better translation, there are many Polish speaking editors who may be able to help you. Removing the content everytime you raise a point here is however becoming a little disruptive on your part. WjBscribe 11:46, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
I don't contest that Dunin is in Tome 6 -- I contest the alleged information. No one has yet proven the validity of the alleged information, or that it is actually "from" PBD. The fact that I made a direct link [3] to the article, rather than a list, is a step above "just a list of tomes". Pay a few PLNs if you wish and you can verify the info. -- That's more than you have done so far. Mindraker 11:51, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

You can verify the information by reading Tome 6 Subtome 1 or having someone translate it for you if you don't speak Polish. That is enough. The fact it would be difficult for you to do is not a factor - Wikipedia allows foreign language sources to be cited. WjBscribe 11:53, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree that foreign language sources can be cited. However, like all sources, they must be verifiable. Therefore, a link to a site which provides a download for the article (http://www.antykwariat.pl/go/_info/?id=41406) is a start. "Copying" the alleged article without a proper citation, obtaining a poor translation, then citing the translation is not the way to go. Unfortunately, we are lacking in sources. We really do need more sources. Mindraker 12:12, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

You seem to have an odd idea of verifiabity. It is verifiable because it exists. The volumes sit in a number of libraries where they can be accessed. They also can be purchased. Verifiability is an objective fact, not a subjective one. If something can be shown to exist it is verifiable, not matter the practical difficulty that accessing it may present. WjBscribe 12:17, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
The "practical difficulty" argument is used frequently with people claiming that God exists. God is "shown to exist", because God is clearly in the Bible. However, as technology and satellites push our knowledge of the universe outward, we haven't "verified" God's existence. The counterargument: God is "outside" of the reach of current technology. Unfortunately, if the "practical difficulty" argument is valid, I could make the claim that there is a book on Pluto's surface in Alienspeak saying that I am the King of Sheba. This won't go very far -- we need other sources to back this up. Mindraker 13:18, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
We know (a) the Polish biographical dictionary exists, (b) that Tome 6 of it contains an entry for Rodryg Dunin. That allows the information to be verified. Wikipedia is a global project so this can often be delegated - some sources will be more easily verified by local editors. But a source is not unverifiable simply because some editors would have trouble obtaining a copy. As long as it can be verified, it is acceptable. WjBscribe 16:48, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
I believe I understand the nature of our disagreement, now. Please carry on. Mindraker 17:51, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] OR?

What part(s) of this article are supported by what sources?Proabivouac 12:20, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Marriage, Agricultural innovator

As this request for sources has been open for months now, and none have been produced, and as the "Marriage" and "Argicultural innovator" sections remain entirely unsourced, I'll now remove them. If I've overlooked some reason to keep them, feel free to restore them and point me to the relevant source(s).Proabivouac 19:50, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

I've also removed the "Early years" section for the same reason - there are no cited sources. Feel free to restore whatever material can be verified.Proabivouac 19:55, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
The Family section is backed by only one source, a list of VM recipients which includes Antoni Dunin, and doesn't mentione Rodryg Dunin at all. It seems that, after original research is removed, there will be no article left.Proabivouac 19:58, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
I've self reverted pending a translation of the Polish passage above, which conceivably backs one or more statements in the article. However, we need to know specifically which ones.Proabivouac 20:04, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Family

This source Lists "DUNIN, Stanis³aw Antoni Piotr" as Rodryg Dunin's (only) child. The birth/death dates contradicted what was posted on the page. You -must- back up what you post on this page with reliable sources. Mindraker 12:46, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunately, the website you're using as a source is nothing more than html auto-generated by a family tree program. The person who entered the data may or may not have correct information and the information may or may not be complete. I know my own foray into genealogy got rather iffy on dates the farther back I looked. Shell babelfish 02:42, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
That's a shame, because this web page is lacking in reliable sources. I was truly trying to verify the information on this page with other sources. Mindraker 14:00, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

The text which is provided from the PBD does not include a marriage date. It is therefore deleted. Mindraker 12:21, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

I am sorry, but claiming a post on the talk page is a reason to delete is absurd - and, there is more than that single reference for the article. If you have not viewed the sources used for the article you are not qualified to judge what is or is not in those sources. Shell babelfish 22:58, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
Speaking of absurdity, what was deleted was the unsourced text, not the article. Try to tone down the personal attacks next time. Mindraker 23:17, 27 October 2007 (UTC)