Talk:Rod Laver

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Contents

[edit] Highest Rank

If he was a World Number 1, why does it says his highest ranking is No.3? Rev. James Triggs 21:36, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

The problem is - apart from the different contributors - the ranking system. Rod Laver was Nr. 3 on the ATP computer ranking in 1974, which was invented in 1973, when Laver was 35 years old.It 'sa problem of many tennis reference books, which rely on the highly incomplete ATP webside. Rod Laver has won many more titles than the 39, the ATP give him credit for. He was officially ranked Nr.1 by the press, notably Lance Tingay of the 'Daily Telegraph' in 1961 and 1962, when only the amateurs, who played the majors and Davis Cup, were ranked. When Laver turned pro at the begin of 1963, he could not play the majors any more. The pros had no official ranking, but after a rough initial year 1963, Laver was co-Nr 1 with Rosewall in 1964 (whom he beat 12 out of 15 times that year), and then clearly Nr.1 pro until 1967. When open tennis arrived, he was again 'officially' ranked Nr. 1 for 68 and 69 by the press.Under the modern scoring system he would have been Nr. 1 even in 1970, when he won 13 tournaments. John Newcombe confesses this in his autobiography.I feel sorry for some contributors, who come up with some valid information relying on the new book of Betty Laver, but are constantly "cured" by a quite obsessive Gonzales fan, who is constantly praising his own hand-made ranking as objective source. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.62.89.188 (talk) 12:00, October 12, 2006
You don't seem to understand the basis rules of editing Wikipedia articles. We can ONLY put in information that has some sort of reference or citation behind it. McCauley clearly writes that Rosewall was No 1. in 1964, even if only by a small margin. Therefore McCauley is a SOURCE and his opinion can be used for the ranking. If Betty Laver writes a book with info about how many tournaments Rod Laver won, that info can also be used. But YOU cannot use it to say that, in YOUR OPINION, that makes Laver No. 1 for that year. To do so is Original Research. I hope that this is clear. Please find another source as authoritative as McCauley that says Laver was No. 1 and we can make Rosewall and Laver co-No. 1s for the year. Why do you think I have changed a number of rankings back and forth over the last couple of months? It is because I have found NEW info that has made me change my mind. Please try to understand: Wiki needs CITATIONS! Hayford Peirce 19:22, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
This argument regarding citatation is obsolete, Mr Pierce. The whole concept of Your ranking is speculative. There is NO citation to be found, that Rosewall was the Nr.1 player in the world overall pros and amateurs in the McCauley book, which i have recommended to You. McCauley doesn't even have specific year end rankings of the pros, even less of the amateurs. For some years he is ambivalent in his persectives, for 1964 he writes, that through the head to head (12-3 Laver-Rosewall) "it was clear, who the master was".He also writes, that Kramer was the World Champion pro in 1952. Your basic thought, that all pros were better than the amateurs in a given year, is a pure assumption.The only acceptable ranking sources, one can find, are the amateur rankings by Wallis Myers and Lance Tingay and McCauley in 'World Tennis'.In 68 and 69 they had a Martini and Rosso panel of 10 journalists to make a ranking.I recognize Your passion and inteerst in the historical aspects of tennis, but You should make it more clear, that You are presenting Your own choices. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.60.165.197 (talk) 14:17, October 12, 2006
I agree that laver is the no1 player for 1964. McCauley's book often does not cite his opinion for each year. In 1964 this is the case. The chapter heading, confirming Rosewall as pro Champion, refers to Rosewall outscoring Laver 78 to 70 over 18 tournaments (7 for a win) was the pro's own system. The chapter cites Laver's own comment after winning the Wembley event that Rosewall was no1. Laver's reason being that Rosewall had won more of the important events, except for this one. However Laver is plain wrong. Laver won the US and Wembley pro events, the two most important ones; Rosewall won the french pro. The pro's own system is totally flawed . The three major events score the same as the other 15; it ignores one of laver's 8 man wins (Port Elizabth); It ignores 4 man tournaments and one night stands(laver's 12-3 edge includes a 7-1 edge for one night stands) Given that in terms of consistency Roseall and laver were evenly matched, but that laver had the edge in head to head and major events there is no doubt that Laver is no1. Just because the pros themselves ranked some one no1 does not mean McCauley agrees with them. In the 1961 Chapter McCauley starts with Gonzales still World Champion because he won the World series. However, a read of the chapter quite clearly reveals that McCauley thinks Rosewall was no1 because of his wins in Paris and Wembley against fields containing all the best pros. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jeffreyneave (talk) 09:57, November 1, 2006

[edit] Mysterious book by "Betty Laver"

Please give us more info about this book by Betty Laver. I have done an extensive search, via Google, plus through the Australian National Library system, and the only books by a "Betty Laver" that I can find are about geology and minerals. Betty Laver in Australia appears to be a small publisher or self-publisher of books. I can find no connection between "Betty Laver" and tennis. Rod Laver's wife, incidentally, is named Mary. Hayford Peirce 02:12, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

i didn't come upt with this book and i don't know it yet, but it is on sale on thetennisgallery.co.uk —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.60.165.197 (talk) 14:17, October 12, 2006
I have a copy of this book. Betty Laver is a relative of Rod Laver. She is married to his brother Trevor. The book was published in Rockhampton, Queensland in 2001. The title is "the red headed rocket from Rockhampton." It adds about 6 tournaments to the 164 total.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Jeffreyneave (talk) 07:51, November 2, 2006
A Google search turns up only 2 hits for it, both for the book's sale at thetennisgallery. That's a pretty obscure book! At the gallery, the comment is: "Fascinating privately-published family biography written by Rod Laver's sister-in-law." Although a similar search for the McCauley book (using a minus sign to eliminate references to Wikipedia) only turns up 7 hits.... Hayford Peirce 16:50, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
I don't think, its an obscure book. It is cited and used by the famous Australian tennis writer Alan Trengove in his book 'Advantage Australia' 2002, about Laver and Court for the Australian Post. It should be recognized the same way as autobiographies or biographies of Riggs, Gonzales, Kramer, Rosewall (both by Rowley and R. Geist),Laver (both by Jack Pollard and Bud Collins), Jenny Hoad (with Pollard), John Newcombe 'Newk-On and off the court', 2002, and others. If there are additional tournament wins recorded, they should be added to the list. As i wrote, the 164 list is not complete. I have only included the bigger pro tourneys, not the smaller ones, which McCauley not always differenciates from the one night stands.But the ATP list with 39 wins for open era, is sadly imcomplete. They even forget the big open titles, like the South African Open, the US pro, the Wembley British indoor, or the Madison Square Garden events, which would be the equivalent to the Masters Series today. They don't even have the first open in history: the BHC at Bournemouth 1968, which Rosewall won over Laver.Greg Sharko of the ATP should better this. The problem of the lost records is discussed in a recent article on Tennis Week by Raymond Lee. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.60.168.173 (talk) 04:40, November 4, 2006
I agree that it can (and should) be used as a source. But it should also be referenced the way the other books are, with footnotes and/or reference citations, giving the complete name of the book, the date published, and, if appropriate, page numbers. Info from any source is important. But it wasn't enough, some time ago, for someone to simply stick in info saying "from Betty Laver's book" without identifying it any further. And, as I have written above, I was totally unable to find it during a lengthy search UNTIL someone gave us the name of the book. If google can't find it otherwise, then that is an *obscure* book.... Hayford Peirce 16:59, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
Hello misters Peirce and germanfriend. I have found the book in an old page of 2004 at http://www.thetennisgallery.co.uk/default.asp : then this book doesn't appear in the site now in december 2006 nevertheless I asked them if they have a copy and they answered me positively : then I have ordered it and I am eagerly waiting for it. Carlo Colussi 10:52, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Minor change

I've changed "Binghampton" in "Binghamton" though McCauley has written it with a "p" because when I look at any Atlas I only find "Binghamton" without "p" in the New York State. Am I wrong ?

Otherwise I think you should add the 4-man tournaments by precising it as I've done in the Rosewall article : I have much more respect for Laver's win at Adelaide in January 1964 over Sedgman, Hoad and Rosewall though it was just a 4-man tournament than for many 16- or 32- or 64- or more than 64-man tournaments where only second rank players enter. If I compare this Laver's victory with Florent Serra's victory at ... Adelaide 2006 where only Hewitt in the Top10 entered, I prefer Rocket's win. This is my opinion. 84.96.87.77 14:42, 21 November 2006 (UTC)Carlo Colussi

I have added Laver's additional wins , including 4 man events, from McCauley and Betty Laver [jeffreyneave] 23 November 2003
I have changed 22 victories in 1962 to 21 victories because I don't find 22 (perhaps you've forgotten a tournament) then I've replaced 179 by 178.I've also changed Nordwijk to Noordwijk, Kitzbühl to Kitzbühel, Monterrey to Monterey (I haven't McCauley's book at hand but if the tournament took place in California and not in Mexico then Monterey has only one "r", and the last "Binghampton" to Binghamton. I haven't changed Caracus in 62 but I think it is Caracas (I haven't any book at hand to check it). Other thing : if my memory is good, Sutter in his 1991 has probably listed a 1976 Laver's victory while in his 2003 book he hasn't.84.96.87.77 13:39, 27 November 2006 (UTC)Carlo Colussi

[edit] Additional titles

Thank You, Jeffreyneave for the additional titles.Still there are some others, i am reluctant to put in. I know, that Laver played and won a round robin in Germany in Sept. 1970 in Berlin, Bonn, and Saarbrücken, whre he beat Okker, Drysdale and Gimeno.In 1976, Sutter has a win Jan. 1976 indoors at Detroit over Cox. I recall, that he beat Borg as well there, so it should have been a 4 men event.From Bud Collins i know, that Geist's latest count is 185 titles.For those readers, who think, that they could marginalize the accounts, it is to say, that for instance all 13 titles in 1970 were regular tournaments, like they are played today (german friend). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.60.149.75 (talk) 02:32, November 24, 2006

I can't prevent changing your article so I've added these two tournaments.
You've talked elsewhere about a new Geist's book : have you any information ? 84.96.87.77 10:41, 28 November 2006 (UTC)Carlo Colussi

[edit] Ranking numbers

The article World Nr. 1 ranking has now changed from 5 to 6, then to 7 years as Nr.1 for Laver, with 2 co-rankings in 64 and 70. I will wait some days, before i change it now from 6 to 7.As i wrote in the article, Laver was undisputed Pro Champion for 5 years 65-59, but has a valid claim for the years 64 and 70. In 1970 he would lead under the modern ranking system of the points race with about 1100 points to 880 of Rosewall. This ranking doesn't regard his amateur Nr. 1 rankings of 61 and 62.(german friend). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.60.152.44 (talk) 09:32, 7 December 2006 (UTC).

[edit] Laver's retirement

I've changed Laver's retirement year because he has played his last ATP tournament in April 1979 at Las Vegas (in 1978 he has played 2 ATP tournaments, in 1977 7 ATP tournaments and in 1976 6 ATP tournaments) : I recognize he was semi-retired since the US Open 75 but not only he entered ATP tournaments from 1976 but he also played WTT events and challenge matches (as the Göteborg one against Borg). Carlo Colussi 12:17, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Hello, Mr. Colussi and Jeffreyneave.Yes, the 1975 date of retirement is certainly not right. I don't know, who put it into the box infos, which refer heavily on the ATP webside stats.Laver had a sort of lingering retirement since 75/76, playing some selected events like the centenary Wimledon in 1977. He played some challenge matches too, the match at Göteborg in 1976 was held in the middle of a WCT tournament in Rotterdam, where Laver lost to Ashe in sf after a big lead (one of the few losses to Ashe).I hink as late as 1978 he had a good win over Gerulaitis in a long 3 set Las Vergas invitational match. At the moment, i am not completely sure, when Laver did sign with WTT (1976 or 77?). Tennis Total and the Hall of fame (by Bud Collins) have the 76 date.I think, he played the 1977 summer season there, and had some good wins ( including Borg) in their one-set matches. I added that WTT thing, because i lately saw a dvd with an old interview by Laver with the basballer Tom Seaver, where he referred to the Rookie of the year thing (with a grin). This dvd with excerpts of Borg, Connors, Ashe and Laver is sold on the internet auctions. Interestingly it has some black and white material of some Laver-Rosewall matches of the mid-60s in Australia. Soem extraordinary shotmaking by both men, who made points from impossible positions and showed quite a lot emotion (quite contrary to many clichés). One other thing is the Aetna World Cup in the 70s. Laver and also Rosewall played a vital part in that team competetion, which revived the old Kramer Cup. Should we add this in the resp. articles? (german friend 9. jan 2007). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.60.165.77 (talk) 13:30, January 9, 2007
Hello.
I can check in the two or three 1976 World Tennis magazines that I own but I am almost sure that Jeffreyneave is right by writing that Laver played WTT as soon as 1976.
Knowing that the Aetna World Cup was an official (but special) WCT event you can write all you want about this event in Laver's article (I don't think I'll write anything in Rosewall's article about that because Ken hasn't been good in this event and then does not deserve much praise) : I even think that first Ashe's victory (after 18 defeats) over Laver was in the 74 World Cup. Carlo Colussi 09:33, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Hilton Head 1973

It seems that Laver has won 2 tournaments in 1973 at Hilton Head over the same opponent, Stan Smith, the CBS Classic on March 17, 1973 and the World Invitational Tennis Classic (WITC) in probably September. Thus Laver's total is now equal to 181 titles.

Carlo Colussi 07:41, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 21 or 22 in 1962

Now that additional titles were registered, i checked again the 1962 tally. Sutter gives Laver 21, but McCauley has him with 22 titles in 1962. One possible additional title in question, is for me Newport. The 'Encyclopedia of Tennis' by Max Robertson and Jack Kramer (1971), listed Newport winners and Laver as champ in 1962 (however not in 1960, where he won it, they have Fraser as 1960 winner, but imo Fraser didn't play the US grass circuit in 1960, which was completely dominated by Laver).In a recent audio interview on Radio Tennis, in the wake of the Hall of Fame celebrations at Newport this year, Laver was introduced as Newport winner in 1960 and 1962. Maybe You, Jeffrey and Carlo, have further information or opinions (german friend 19. Jan.). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.60.135.136 (talk) 04:23, January 18, 2007

No informationCarlo Colussi 09:39, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
I have no additional information. I would assume McCauley is right in his assertion. Sutter probably missed an event. no source has ever proved to be totally comprehensive when dealing with tournament wins. [jeffreyneave] 20 jan 2007 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.145.169.181 (talk) 03:40, January 20, 2007
I've found some new information : in his book Sutter has listed the 1962 Newport(US) winner as Chuck McKinley over Eugene (Gene) Scott on August 18, 1962 and then I've read my November 1962 edition of World Tennis (US) : it confirms Sutter's information : there were some young US players as Ashe or Riessen or Australian players as Stolle in this tournament but Laver didn't even enter it. McCauley has indeed written that Laver has won 22 tournaments but he hasn't listed them. If he is right then it is another tournament but which ? Carlo Colussi 07:50, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
Thank you for the input. Sadly, the Hall of Fame webside has no list of former Newport winners. By the way, there were two Newports with tennis tournaments, one in Wales, one in Rhode Island. Maybe the list of Newport (USA) Men's Invitational winners of the Encyclopedia of Tennis, p.260, is not trustful. I will cheque other sources (german friend 22.1.2007). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.60.156.44 (talk) 05:07, January 22, 2007

[edit] Greatest Player of All Time

I don't agree with the line "Rod Laver is considered by many tennis fans to be the greatest tennis player of all time." If that was true, then a few other player's Wikipedia entries would need to be changed as well, including: Pete Sampras (14 grand slams, 7-time year-end highest ranking), Bjorn Borg (6 French Opens and 5 Wimbledons), Jimmy Connors (longest un-broken streak as world #1). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 65.40.189.59 (talk) 15:32, 20 January 2007 (UTC).

Have you read the article?! It carefully lists a number of experts who consider him the greatest of all time. And many fans do also. That's all this article is saying. If you want to rewrite the other articles to say that many fans consider so-and-so to be the greatest, then please go ahead. But leave this one alone. Thanks. Hayford Peirce 17:03, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
Mister Pierce is right. If you select Sampras, Borg or Connors as the greatest then you have to also select Laver, Rosewall (Robert Geist and Peter Rowley consider that Rosewall is the greatest by far) and then you have to choose Gonzales and perhaps Budge and surely Tilden and perhaps Norman Brookes or William Larned or Hugh Laurence Doherty or William Renshaw. Mister HagermanBot, tennis is born well before open tennis and Borg but there is a bad (but natural) tendancy to always ignore the past. Now I'm reading Mabel Brookes's book about his husband Norman and I can tell you that Brookes is one of the greatest player that ever lived (he was Tilden's idol) and he can claim this honour as much as Connors or another modern player. So frankly anyone who hasn't studied the whole tennis story (which has begun in 1858-1859 with the first recorded tournament in August 1876 at Nahant (Massachusetts)), cannot express a valuable opinion. Anyone who doesn't know Tilden's feats can't affirm that a modern player was better than the late American.
Concerning Laver it is sure that many tennis witnesses consider him the greatest one : perhaps they are wrong (I personally think that Tilden or Gonzales are the greatest) but perhaps they are right. In any case this is truly their opinion and it isn't a very bad one because I think that Laver has won like Tilden, Gonzales or Rosewall near or about 20 tournaments equivalent of the modern Grand Slam tournaments (for instance to have an idea, look at the Ken Rosewall article where I've written in detail his feats and look at "Tennis, male players statistics" where you will see that Gonzales has won 7 major professional tours where you will be able to understand what a great player he was : as a pro he couldn't play the Davis Cup or Wimbledon or Forest Hills for 20 years but he defeated all the great amateurs who had won these events and also his pro fellows : Kramer, Segura, Sedgman, McGregor, Trabert, Rosewall, Hoad, Cooper, Anderson, Rose, Olmedo, Gimeno all have been dominated by Gonzales : Olmedo (Laver's winner in Davis Cup and at Wimbledon in 1959) think that Gonzales could have won between 8 and 10 Wimbledon had he been allowed to play in the Temple. Do you know that Rosewall has been undefeated at Paris for 7 years and that he has won more French titles (10) than anyone and Borg ("only" 6) in particular ? Do you know that Laver has won something like 18 tournaments in 1967 and in particular the 5 greatest tournaments of the year : Newcombe and Emerson who were the best amateurs in 1967 and had won the Davis Cup and all the Slam tournaments knew very well that they weren't at the time in Laver's class. Do you know that Gonzales has beaten Tilden in his career but also ... in Los Angeles 1971, Connors who had defeated the previous day, Stan Smith then the best player in the world at the moment. Ask Connors who was the most exciting player and the greatest one he has met and he will answer you, Gonzales. Carlo Colussi 08:05, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
In addition to the noted experts like Maskell, Schroeder or Collins, one can cite 3 more recent articles from 2004,2006 and 2007, which rank Laver as all time best:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,9910-1165988,00.html
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/09/13/SPGGPL4KST1.DTL
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/main.jhtml?xml=/sport/2007/01/15/stfede15.xml
Its speculative to compare players from different eras, its often a matter of living memory. Who has seen Tilden in his prime, and is still alive? Not many i think. Some say, Hoad in his prime was he most talented, but his best days were numbered, and he simply hasn't the pro record of his comtemporaries Rosewall or Gonzales.You have to carefully study the records in their specific enviroment and context, and wage it against modern players.Laver is Nr.1 or at least top 3 on the very most experts list, and he came on top in greater polls like that of Inside Tennis in 1986 (37 experts) or that poll from AP in 2000 for player of the century. As late as December 2006 he had the equal top lead together with Federer in a 7 experts poll made by Tennis Week (German friend, 22.Jan. 2007). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.60.158.236 (talk) 06:09, January 22, 2007
Of course it's speculative to compare players from different eras but it doesn't prevent you to always state that Laver is the greatest one. Once you have reproached Hayford Pierce to be pro-Gonzales but one can reproach you to be pro-Laver.
What upsets me it's the fact that when some persons talk about the supposed greatest players of all time they have absolutely no ideas of the players of the first century of the tennis history. So it is completely stupid to talk about "all-time" when one knows nothing about "all-time". All the supposed experts do not know anything about pre-open era and Laver being chronologically the first player of the open era, he is the oldest to be remembered. Sure there isn't any contemporary now who has seen Tilden in his prime and even at the end of his life. The problem is how someone can say that Federer or Laver or Lendl is a greater player than Tilden when this same person doesn't know anything about Tilden's career. Those supposed experts even don't know anything about pre-open Laver's feats. They all stupidly cite his 1962 Grand Slam which worths nothing while they fully ignore that he superbly played and above all won the 1966 Wembley final. In conclusion if someone says that Federer or any open era player is the greatest one I will answer him or her do you know Larned's or Brookes's or Tilden's or Vines's or Budge's or Kramer's or Gonzales's or Rosewall's feats and if that person says no I will told her to shut up. You can show me all the articles you want stating that Laver is the greatest one you truly know that these experts didn't research almost anything prior to Laver or prior to their generation. I've already told you that Maskell's view is biaised : he ranked Perry, his countryman, 4th in his list and brushed Vines away. He thought Gonzales-Sedgman final in Wembley 56, was one of the greatest matches ever seen and he didn't rank Gonzales in his Top10 list but put Rosewall and Connors in that list. I can't understand Maskell who had been playing in the pro ranks so long but nevertheless didn't have a great opinion of his pro fellows. For Collins almost nothing has existed before Laver. In his encyclopedia there is almost nothing about a) pro tennis before 1968 and b) tennis before 1920. Finally Schroeder had perhaps not a great opinion of 1) Gonzales because he had beaten Pancho 7 times in their first 7 meetings and of 2) Tilden perhaps because, according to Robert Geist, Tilden at 50, would have beaten Schroeder in 1943 when the young player was Forest Hills titlist.
In http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,9910-1165988,00.html the oldest player is Laver.
In http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/09/13/SPGGPL4KST1.DTL of course as ever they've just picked amateur successes : the 1938 Slam and the 92-match win streak (in 37-38) of Budge but not his 1939 pro feats when he was at his peak, about Gonzales what is cited ? "twice winning the U.S. Championships" but nothing about his pro wins (just a remark : "he was the game's most commanding figure"), absolutely nothing about Tilden as a pro while he himself thought that his best years were from 1931 through 1934.
In http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/main.jhtml?xml=/sport/2007/01/15/stfede15.xml David Miller proposes "before the arrival of Federer, my top 10 players were Laver, Borg, Hoad, Sampras, John McEnroe, Rosewall, Edberg, Ivan Lendl, Jimmy Connors and Boris Becker." The oldest player is Rosewall and he doesn't take into account Ted Tinling's opinion. If I except Rosewall and Hoad, David Miller's opinion is that only open era players count in his ranking. He cites Hopman's opinion but does he know that Hopman considered that the best player he had ever seen was undoubtedly in his mind, John Donald Budge.
In fact all those experts' rankings are just rubbish. For them it's too hard to look at the records before the open era and especially the pro records.
All this to say that all the modern experts talk about somethig they don't know : if they want to rank open players, OK and in this case they have to talk about "the greatest players since 1968" but they don't have to say that such or such modern player is the greatest of all time because there are truly incompetent. I will accept to listen to someone's opinion when he be able to tell me something about Brookes's feats in 1907 or Tilden's in 1923 or Budge's in 1939 (and not in 38) or ... All the other persons are just unable to express a valuable opinion because they know NOTHING about the great players of tennis history.
Nevertheless everyone can add these links to corroborate their opinion in Wikipedia articles.
- I don't remember the Newport Wales winner in 1962 (I think it was Sangster) but I'm sure that the finalist was Tony Pickard (who was Edberg's coach in the 90s). 80.70.42.194 15:01, 22 January 2007 (UTC)Carlo Colussi
If You, Mr. Coloussi, carefully read, you may note, that i haven't put these internet-articles in the main Wikipedia-article, like it is done by others in the Borg article, because they are more or less substantiated recent opinions. It was an answer to question of sources in the dicussion section. Of course you are entitled to your opinion, but i would rank the opinion of people like Maskell, Collins, Trabert, Barrett, McCauley or Schroeder pretty high, because they saw a lot of tennis in their lives, Maskell saw or played against even Tilden. OK, you can critize the critiques, but you cannot deny their expert-status.There is indeed a media-problem: We have notice from players like the Dohertys, Brookes or Wilding (maybe he was better than Brookes) trough books and a few short clips, no living memory. So the sources are always a bit biased from the outset. Dame Mabel Brookes for example was a not always a loved person in Australian Tennis. She was a sort of grey eminence and had great influence on the Davis Cup team, even over Hopman. She was the reason behind the scenes to shut out your beloved Rosewall from the deciding DC doubles in 1953. Poor Wilding had no history writer like Brookes, he died on the Western front in WW 1. (German friend 23.1.2007) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.60.149.129 (talk) 04:19, January 23, 2007
You can be the greatest expert in a given discipline that doesn't mean you are perfect : for instance in Maskell's case it is clear that he clearly favors amateur feats to pro feats and that he has a very great opinion of Perry because the latter was his countryman so I can't accept his opinion about the greatest players. Idem for Collins he hadn't studied pro tennis before Laver and he relied on McCauley's and Geist's works. I have a better opinion of McCauley's view because he knew a lot about pro tennis. I don't know much about Trabert's opinions so I can't judge : all I know is his writings in Tennis de France in 1961-1962 but he didn't give his greatest players' list in the magazines I own.
So the people you cite are perhaps experts of tennis in general but they aren't experts about all-time greatest players' rankings when they don't take into account a) the whole story of the game from the very beginning and b) they ignore most of pro tennis before 1968. If people say that 1962 is one of the two best years of Laver's career then I answer they are awfully wrong and not expert in this particular case and you know that I am completely right, that Laver reached his peak between 1967 and 1969. You've written in the "World No. 1 Tennis Player Rankings" discussion page that "That Perry now has 5 Nr.1 rankings, is a farce. He never was the pro champion, always behind Vines..." so even you disagree Maskell's opinion who ranked Perry #4 in his list and didn't rank Vines at all. So I repeat and I maintain that many tennis experts are not "all-time greatest players' rankings" experts because they focuse mainly on their own era and brush away pre-open pro tennis. If I'm not mistaken (I will check it tonight) Tilden had a much better approach than modern experts : in his book "My story" edited in 1948, he just picked the twenty most oustanding players of all time and split the list in two : the first ten and the second ten and then he only listed these players in alphabetical order which is not a bad idea. As you've written before it's very speculative to compare players from different eras because nothing is comparable : environment, material, knowledge, technique ... so all we can really do is listing the greatest players without ranking them but one thing is sure : if someone forgets all the great players I've cited before then his list is wrong.
PS : I don't yet know much about Brookes and Wilding : if I haven't selected Wilding it's because I think Brookes was better given that in the two great meetings they had, Brookes defeated twice Wilding (the 2nd round of 1907 Wimbledon and the Wimbledon challenge round in 1914 where Brookes was said to have played the best match of his life). But even in this case comparisons are hard because a) Brookes didn't go overseas many times to challenge Wilding (Brookes didn't play Wimbledon between his two titles and I don't think he played in the US before the Davis Cup Challenge Round in 1914 and b) Wilding being a Londoner worker didn't play many Davis Cup Challenge Rounds held Down Under because Australasia kept the bowl so the two players didn't enter the same competitions and didn't face many times (in 1914 Wilding beat twice Brookes in Côte-d'Azur (French Riviera) tournaments but Brookes won the great match at Wimbledon. So it is possible that Wilding has won 4 Wimbledon in a row because a) Brookes stayed home and b) Larned and McLoughlin too stayed home. Finally at 43, Brookes was still able to extend Tilden, then the World #1 player, to 4 sets (8-10 4-6 6-1 4-6) in the 1920 Davis Cup Challenge Round : not bad. So on these little facts I can suppose that Brookes was better than the NewZealander but I can't affirm it because I don't know enough about their respective careers (but it will come). 84.96.87.77 15:21, 23 January 2007 (UTC)Carlo Colussi
Now, that Collins knows nothing about pro tennis pre 1960, is not true. In his book' My life with the pros' he describes, that he follows the game - and the pro game - since the late 40s. I find it only fair, that he cites McCauley and Geist on their statistical studies, because they have laid indeed some ground work here. On Perry: I have stated, that Perry wasn't the big thing on the pro tour, because he obviously had lost some of his competitive spirit. Perry was a very physical player, and imo he played indeed at his best as in amateur in the years 34-36, under the conditions of big draws, big DC matches with best of five format. Vines was a bit physically frail, and in some hard DC matches he had to retire, or lost out in the crunch.I think, he craved under the pro conditions with shorter matches, often indoors, where his big serve and flat forehand came to life. Perry and Vines were great friends and business partners, ok their tour matches were for real, but had maybe not the same incencitive as the DC matches. Maskell was not the only one, who had a high opinion on Perry: In the Encyclopedia of Tennis of 1974, Danzig, Hopman or Tingay, who give great credit to the pre WWII masters, all rank Perry at 3-6 in their top ten lists, behind Tilden and Budge (Danzig has Cochet at 2), but always ahead of Vines (Danzig and Hop has him at 9). In the time period after Kramer, only Laver (3,4,8) and Gonzales (4, 10, 10)are ranked by all in their top ten, sometimes Gonzales shares the place with Emerson at Nr.10. On Wilding: it would be indeed interesting to compare Wilding, Brookes and McLoughlin carefully. As far as i know, Wilding in his most famous outing beat the Comet at Wimbledon in straight sets, playing with the furious pace by the Californian (German friend 24.1.2007). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.60.174.182 (talk) 04:48, January 24, 2007

Your argument about Vines aren't wrong nevertheless he has been relatively good in Davis Cup : all the ties where he competed, except the USA-Canada meeting in 1933, were all played on clay, his least good surface, and Vines was able to beat Cochet, Roland Garros titlist, and Crawford next Roland Garros winner. He also defeated Prenn and the young von Cramm. His bad losses were against Borotra and Austin but against Perry he has almost won before retiring. I haven't 'Total Tennis' at hand but I think he never played Roland Garros amateur, this tournament being at the time less important than Forest Hills or Wimbledon. So in the amateur circuit he wasn't the best claycourt player but he was a good one. In the pro ranks, he was beaten several times by Nüsslein or Karel Kozeluh on clay but he also took his revenges against them on that surface : for instance Vines won the Paris tournament on November 30, 1934, beating Nüsslein in the final on indoor clay; Vines also won the 1935 French Pro at Roland Garros, overcaming Nüsslein 3 sets to 1 in the final. Then Vines didn't play a great clay tournament until 1939 (if we believe Bowers Vines didn't enter any tournament between Wembley in October 1935 and Wembley in May 1939 (others claim that Vines played 1936 Wembley)). In 1939 Vines played once again the French Pro with all the best except Perry and he reached the final only losing to Budge : what made the very slight difference between Vines and Nüsslein in the Ray Bowers's 1939 pro ranking, was that Stoefen beat Nüsslein at Roland Garros while Stoefen was defeated by Vines in the same tournament. In conclusion on slow surfaces Vines both could be beaten by any top player and also could defeat anyone. It seems that effectively Vines was physically fragile and often injured (it was one of the reasons of his early retiring) and that Perry had a strong constitution but the English had also a mental weakness : he could be easily demotivated. Kramer said that Perry was unaffected by a loss when he didn't care to win : Kramer was invited in 1936 to see the Perry-Budge final in Los Angeles and he said that Perry didn't fight at all when the two players had split the two first sets. Kramer also wrote that pro tennis reputation was bad and that pro matches were not considered as real ones because Perry and Kovacs played each other like clowns in a Caribbean tour. So possibly Perry doesn't deserve to be so highly considered because of his "unprofessional" behaviour. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Carlo Colussi (talk) 03:36, January 26, 2007

McLoughlin beat Brookes in 3 sets and Wilding in 4 in the 1914 Davis Cup Challenge Round but the Comet lost to James Cecil 'Jim' Parke in 5 sets the previous year. Carlo Colussi 09:00, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

hello, from German friend. I have myself problems with the rankings of Perry and Vines (and Budge for that matter), regarding their respective amateur and pro careeres.There is a good discussion in the book 'Topspin' by Eliot Berry (1994), who made an interview with Perry shortly before his death. Perry (and Cochet) seem to have turned pro, when a bit past their prime. Perry saw the shadows on the wall, when he almost lost to Budge at Forest Hills 1936, and lost at Los Angeles. Vines had the better pro career (and a hot, but short amateur career as well). Kramer is maybe not the best source, because he likes his mentor Vines enormously, he even stated in an article, that Vines was advised to 'carry' Perry in the pros, to make it more interesting. Nevertheless the older experts almost all rank Cochet and Perry higher. I have some old ranking lists in the book Tennis Faszination by Paula Stuck-von Resniczek, 1968. They were compiled in 1950 by Roderich Menzel (RG runner up 1938 and later a writer). He cites a list by Edgar Joubert (i think he was the biographer of Suzanne Lenglen) of ca. 1950, and some of ca. 1930 by F.G. Lowe, Arnold Herrschell, Lacoste, Maurice Blein, E.C.Potter, P.M. Harry in 'Revue de tennis' and Ph. Nutt. All have Tilden at Nr.1, most have D.H. Doherty as Nr.2. Between Brookes and Wilding there is no clear decision. Joubert (ca. 1950)ranks: Tilden, Cochet, Budge, Kramer, Borotra, Lacoste, Perry, R.F. Doherty,H.L. Doherty, Brookes, Wilding, Patterson. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.60.134.176 (talk) 06:34, January 26, 2007

[edit] About Wilding

To Germanfriend (and others).

Hello. I've discovered 3 books about Anthony Wilding (that I've bought):

- Len Richardson; Shelley Richardson « Anthony Wilding: A Sporting Life »

- Myers, A. Wallis « Captain Anthony Wilding »

- WILDING Anthony F « On the Court and Off »

Carlo Colussi 10:31, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Hello again Germanfriend. To show the greatness of the tennis player Wilding I have listed in the english and french articles of Wikipedia his 105 (at least) singles titles as found by Len and Shelley Richardson in their magnificent book (see above); their work has been beautiful. Carlo Colussi 15:41, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Question about Rod Laver's Ties to Footwear?

I came to this article about Rod Laver because I was interested in why Adidas has a shoe named after him. This particular style of shoe is extremely popular for players of the game hackey-sack, calling them the unofficial hackey-sack shoes. However, this article does not mention anything about the subject. Perhaps it should? 63.246.176.26 07:42, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Photo of Rod Laver?

--myselfalso 22:09, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Part of the french version of the article

Hello germanfriend.

I haven't written the french article of Rod Laver but when I've seen that in the original version it was written that Laver had won 39 singles titles in his whole career I jumped up to the ceiling : of course the writer had used the ATP statistics. Therefore I couldn't prevent myself to correct that assertion : I've then "copy-pasted" your "181 titles" section in the french edition (http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rod_Laver) in order to give back Laver his due. Carlo Colussi 14:18, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Opening paragraph

Earlier I removed the line

"For this achievement, Laver is considered by many tennis fans to be the greatest player of all time."

The sentence was put back but I am going to revert it. If you look at the Wikipeia policy - Wikipedia:Avoid_weasel_words - there is a paragraph which mirrors this situation almost exactly explaining why the sentence should be removed. I have copied this below:

Peacock terms are especially hard to deal with without using weasel words. Again, consider the sentence "Manchester United is the greatest football team in history." It's tempting to rephrase this in a weaselly way, for example, "Some people think that Manchester United is the greatest football team in history." But how can this opinion be qualified with an opinion holder? There are millions of Manchester Utd fans and hundreds of football experts who would pick Manchester Utd as the best team in history. Instead, it would be better to eliminate the middleman of mentioning this opinion entirely, in favor of the facts that support the assertion:

   "Manchester United has won 6 Premier League titles and a domestic and European triple -- almost two times as many as any other team."

This fact suggests that Manchester Utd is a superlative football team, rather than simply the greatest football team in history. The idea is to let readers draw their own conclusions about Manchester Utd's greatness based on the number of Domestic and European trophies they have won. Objectivity over subjectivity. Dispassion, not bias.

Additionally without a source the sentence prbably counts as origional research by an editor which is also against policy Wikipedia:No_original_research - maybe if there is a source from a reputable magazie showing a survey in which a certain percentage of tennis fans feel he is the greatest player that could be added. Guest9999 10:49, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Addition - I think Wikipedia:Avoid peacock terms is actually the policy directly refering to the sentence in question. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Guest9999 (talk) 05:05, June 26, 2007

From german Friend. If someone really will read the article, he will find that the sentence, that 'by many experts and polls, Laver is rated as greatest player of all time' is indeed sourced. OK, i will add all these sources now from Times, Daily Telegraph, Bud Collins, Tony Trabert, Bruce Jenkins and Associated Press (all from 2000-2007), and - if you will - book references from Maskell to Barrett. Its already all in the article or in the discussion pages. I find it rather stinky, that someone is now discrediting the pre open pro tour as not competitive. Tennis was played before Federer, who seems simply not capable to win a Grand Slam or at least one Roland Garros (german friend 6.7.2007). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.60.135.67 (talk) 07:06, July 7, 2007
Ok. Mr. Guess, You thinks, you are extremely clever, in changing words constantly. I will add further sources. Maybe you can say, when you think 'many' is right. How many sources you will have: 10, 12, 20? (german friend 12.7.2007). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.60.185.166 (talk) 11:45, July 12, 2007

[edit] About semi-competitive pro matches in the pre-open era

I'm not so sure that there were many arranged pro matches during the pre-open era. In his book Kramer said that only one match result in his pro career was fixed up : at the end of the Kramer-Segura tour both players were so tired that they decided that the winner of the first set of their next match (if my memory is good at Hawaii at the beginning of 1951) would be offered the second set and then the match in order not to play too long. Segura won the first one but didn't respect the initial deal because he did his best to lose the second set and then both players had to play a third set not expected.

If we have to believe Kramer all his pro matches were played at 100% except the one described just before. Carlo Colussi 12:03, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Carlo Colussi. Given the bitter rivalry between players like Gonzales and Trabert, it seems odd, to name these pro matches and tournaments semi-competitive. They were playing for their jobs. If someone lost a series, he was out of the game. Gonzales had to give tennis lessons and to turn to auto-racing, after he lost his series vs. Kramer, in order to survive. And in the 80s, the pro tournaments had prize money. Why should anyone give up money, in order to make matches more interesting. That matches were thrown, was maybe a factor in the mid 70s, when Nastase and even (a outburnt) Borg were accused to give away matches. Another question: Why has someone put a tag on the article without any argument? As in the Rosewall-article, all the stats here are founded and sourced. In fact, the article has gotten a B-Rating and is used by quite a few 'tennis journalists' today.That the numbers are different in different sources, see ATP or ITF stats, is not the problem of the article.I think, its all discussed here (German friend, 11.7.2007). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.60.151.122 (talk) 02:27, July 11, 2007
Indeed in the mid-70s some matches were given away : when Orantes challenged Connors in February 1976 and when the Spaniard discovered that the surface used was too fast for him he decided not to fight (beaten something like 62 61 60 by Connors) but he didn't refuse the $250,000 check.
Thank you for your support about the Rosewall's article. About your Laver's article I can say this is the best documented I've ever seen (of course I suppose there are Laver's books more complete than simple articles). Both we can deeply thank our different sources (McCauley, Sutter, Laver, Geist, Rowley, Collins ...). Carlo Colussi 11:20, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Pennsylvania 1960, Brisbane Hard Courts 1961 and Belfast 1965

Hello german friend and jeffreyneave.

Are you sure that Rocket has won "Brisbane Hard Courts" in 1961 (in 1962 against Ken Fletcher 86 63 ok) ? I've never seen it anywhere. Do you have any details : source, date, runner-up, score ? I just know that Hewitt defeated Laver 64 62 57 63 in the final of Rockdale national hard court on october 22, 1961.

Same questions for Belfast 1965 (4-man tournament) ?

Idem for Pennsylvania 1960 ?

Thank you for the answers. Carlo Colussi 06:38, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

hello I presume these events are not in sutter. They are covered in betty laver's book
In 1961 Laver defeated Emerson 7-5,6-3 in the Queensland Hard courts, which I assume to be the same event as the Brisbane Hard courts. However, it was not played in brisbane in 1961 but close to Laver's home town of Rockhampton in Gladstone. I can't belive Queensland is going to organise 2 hard court events so close togerther. Presumably they rotated the event around Queensland. This 1961 event attracted all the top players as Laver and emerson beat hewitt and stolle in the doubles.
In 1960 Laver beat Holmberg 9-7, 8-6 ,6-3 in pennsylvania
In 1965 late july Laver beat Gimeno 6-4,6-4 in the 4 man event in Belfast.
I also noticed another Laver victory in the autumn of 1960. He won the central Queensland champs over Frank Gorman. Gorman was Laver's Queensland tennis pal in the 1950's and was his practice partner throughout that period. However I'm not sure this is an international class event as Gorman never played outside of Australia as an adult, resrticting himself to the Aussie circuit often as Laver's double partner.
Did you see Raymond lee's all time greats list ? Not suprisingly I didn't particularly disagree about the overall results. However, I think he over uses the best 5 years performance treating it as equal to career results. To a certain extent, I presume he introduced it because of Borg who was the only player to retire at such a young age. Unlike the others borg was still a top 5 player in 1982. Nearly all the rest retired after leaving the world's top 10. In my view this 5 year best period is a proxy for being ranked world no1. I think that the number of years as world no1 should have been introduced instead. From a career prepective, the number of years in the top 5 would suggest the ability to remain as a really top class player. Both laver and Rosewall did enough to be ranked in the 10 in 1975, but they were not close to the top 5 as they were not really a threat in the big events or to the most consistent top players Connors, Borg and Vilas.
I noticed in the table that vines had more points than kramer, but was ranked below him. I also noticed that Vines' best performance of winning all his big events in his best 5 year period (1934-8) was not correct. He lost to Nuseillin in the sf US pro 1934.
I think he underates Kramer's win over Gonzales. Gonzales was a top player and was not just a novice in 1949-50. He had won 2 us champs and had been ranked as the world no1 amateur twice by the daily telegraph. I understand Schroeder had a very good record against gonzales going into the 1949 Us champs. But Gonzales deafeated him in 5 tough sets and repeated the win a acouple of weeks later at the PSW. Gonzales was a rapidly improving quality player. In 1950 Gonzales easily did enough to be ranked as the no3 pro behind Kramer and Segura. I've no doubt that he would be world no3 as Patty the top amateur of 1950 was never regarded as really quality player and never won another slam outside of 1950. Who else could Kramer play ? . He beat the world no3 in 1950 and the world number 2 in segura in 1951. Jeffreyneave 15 November 2007 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jeffreyneave (talk • contribs) 11:17, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
Hello Jeffrey,
I have read Lee's article when germanfriend has given us the link a few weeks ago. Lee previously used "the best 5 years" criterion when he ranked the best players of the open era (Borg #1 in Lee's ranking). So it is very likely that he overuses this argument to judge the players. I have read the comments of Lee's all time greats article but I haven't checked the statistics and in particular Vines's. Lee isn't completely wrong when he states that Gonzales had little experience of the pro tours but nevertheless to beat Gonzales in 78% of their confrontations even in 1949-1950 wasn't a bad performance at all. Moreover players such as Kramer, Vines and others are underrated in Lee's statistics because they had almost no opportunity or no time to play tournaments. According to Bowers Vines has not played any tournament between november 1935 (Wembley) and may 1939 (again Wembley) and about Kramer Lee recalls that Kramer had just won 35 tournaments but for instance in 1950 Kramer just played (and lost to Segura) two tournaments : this is very understandable given that he played so many tour matches that year.
Thank you for the answers about the tournaments but there is still something ambiguous because Laver would have won Pennsylvania (but where : Philadelphia or elsewhere ?) against Holmberg 97 86 63 but also Southampton (NY) against the same player with the same score on August 7, 1961 : it's very odd. Could you give me the clue ? Thanks again.
Other similar questions about Berlin R.R in 1970, Hilton Head 1971 (and Hilton Head WITC 1973 : runner-up Smith (as in Hilton Head CBS), score ? date september ?). Carlo Colussi (talk) 13:44, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
hello carlo.
Pennsylvania was played at Merion( a tennis club in Haverford). It is definitely a different event from Philadelphia (indoors in february, although it seems laver won a summer version in 1960) or Southampton, new york state (like merion a grass court warm up event for Forest Hills). Merion was a long standing event and continued on the main circuit until 1974; the last year the us champs were played on grass. Laver had a 5 tournament winning streak on the us circuit in 1960 going into Forest hills . I think Bud Collins's Total tennis gives a description of this streak. He could easily have beaten Holmberg twice although the same score looks unlikely. Sutter probably made an error and confused the two events.
Laver beat Newcombe August 1971 in 4 man CBS Classic Hilton Head (don't know score)
Laver beat smith 6-2, 6-2 16 man CBS classic Hilton Head march 1973
Laver beat Smith 7-6 7-5 4 man WITC Hilton Head september 1973
I don't really know much about the german R.R in 1970. Our german friend is the source for this. All I know is Laver defeated Gimeno, okker and drysdale
Concerning Kramer and Vines lack of tournament wins, they get compensation in Lee's figures thru their tour wins. None of the open erea plaayers who all played a lot more tournaments score any points for tour wins. I assume, looking at gonzales, he gave 3 points for a win against a world no1 contender, 2 against a top player, 1 against a no hoper. Gonzales won 7 major tours, but I suspect the ones against Rosewall, trabert and gimeno only gave him 2 points, leading to total of 18 points. I feel Kramer deserves an extra 2 or 3 ponts. However, these tour players who played few tournaments do rather well in the %wins of touranemts category ,with open era players at the bottom. Not suprisingly the open era plaayers who play 20 to 30 a year, lose a greater proportion than players like Kramer, Vines and perry.
Where the tour players lose out is in % of matches won. Perry and vines played 2 years of just playing themselves in 37 and 38. They split the matches pretty evenly. A win % between 45-55% is not very helpful when comparing with open era players who all win at over 80-85%. Modern players play lots of matches against players outside the top 20. Not suprisingly Vines and perry finished bottom in this category. jeffreyneave 21 november 2007 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jeffreyneave (talk • contribs) 19:36, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
Hello Jeffrey.
Thank you for the answers and for the comments. I particularly asked those questions because I help Jema on the French site who has decided to list all the wins and finals of modern players as Feardes had done for Lendl in the English site : so if you have time you can take a look at the tables in the french version of the Laver article and correct some errors (and eventually you can "copy-paste" the final versions in the English site). Once again thank you.
P.S.1 Are you sure of the CBS event score in 1973 : 6-2 6-2 or 6-2 6-4 ?
P.S.2 : well I've looked at the Collins's book and it seems that Laver has only won 4 tournaments in a row in summer 1960 : Pennsylvania Holmberg 97 86 63, Southampton NY Holmberg 1210 63 36 26 63, Orange Donald Dell 61 1210 64 and Newport Buchholz 61 68 61 62. In fact Sutter has not confused anything but as usual (for all the years) he's written "Philadelphia" instead of "Pennsylvania State (amateur) Championships, Haverford, Merion Club" (Haverford is in the suburb of Philadelphia). Except that the only difference between Collins and Sutter is that they reversed the score (but not the finalists) of Haverford and Southampton. So the Pennsylvania and Philadelphia wins mentioned in this article are probably the same one : so I will erase one. 212.23.162.39 (talk) 07:11, 22 November 2007 (UTC)Carlo Colussi

yes your right laver beat Smith 6-2, 6-4

Fair enough, on the confusion of the events in Pennsylvania. I think the event should be referred to as Merion, neither Philadelphia or Haverford have ever been used as an identifer for this event.Neither the ATP or Tingay's World of tennis yearbooks use it. Merion is used like Forest Hills or Queen's club.

I took a quick look at the french version. Very impressive. One or two points.

Laver beat Segura at Binghampton 1966 VASS scoring system 31-28 31-18

Gimeno beat laver 5 sets barcelona 1969

Louisville is clay (despite what ATP site states; ITF site has it correct)

Southampton ,merion , South orange and Newport are all grass court warm-up events for forest hills

US pro played on grass until 1969. Changed 1970 to uni-turf synthetic carpet, which can be used outdoors.

All South african events are hard courts i think; certainly the south african champs are.

I think all the european summer events in the amateur era are clay. (except Ireland which I think are grass) Cannes pro is indoors

I think all the state champs, played over 5 setss, Australia are grass.

Madison square garden indoors( probably carpet as that was surface 1967); hilton Head clay;

all wembley pro events up to 1968 indoor wood

St petersburg is a clay court event in florida,usa (amateur era)

PSW hard court. Jeffreyneave 23 November 2007 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jeffreyneave (talk • contribs) 13:44, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Hello Carlo and Jeffrey. I haven't seen this recent discussion before. Its very interesting. I just recently got a copy of Betty Laver's book by the Tennis Gallery. It has indeed many informations about matches, sadly no statistical appendix. It seems from p.59, that Laver in 1963 won the Johannesburg event as well as Capetown (over Olmedo), with Mike Davies in the final. I have put it on thewins list, now again at 181. I also wrote, that the latest count by Geist is 188 wins. And in the first phase of the US World Series in spring 1963, on p.58, there is another Laver-Rosewall match mentioned in Bermudas, which Laver won 10-8. MacKay and Ayala, Gimeno and Buchholtz played the other matches.Should be put on the Rosewall article and the Rosewall-Laver matches. On the other subjects i will post later. german friend 26.11.2007 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.60.142.26 (talk) 10:19, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
Again German friend on the Lee-analysis. Indeed, he may overemphazise the 5 year criterion.On the other side, a shorter term domination line, as one aspect of evaluation, isn't that bad. I agree, that to be added, would be the reign as Nr.1, then maybe the best year on overall wins and/or percentage basis, and the span of top ten rankings, to have a real longevity criterion. Lee, however, seems to give credit points to the old pro tours, which is imo right (german friend, 26.11.2007). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.60.188.244 (talk) 10:30, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
I only just saw the statistical appendix in the French version. Its super. I always wanted to put in the final scores myself, but have limited time at the moment, and i am not really at home with the internet technique. Therefore, i would be extremely glad, if Carlo could put this stats into the English article. I will go through it all in the next days. The German round robin was played begin October 1970 at Berlin, Bonn and Saarbruecken between Laver, Okker, Gimeno and Drysdale. In the deciding match Laver beat Okker 6-3,6-7,6-2 at Saarbruecken.The event at Detroit in 1976 was played early in the year, in January shortly before the Philadelphia event, with Laver beating Cox and Borg in the process. I think, Sutter has it in his first edition, and i will prove it. Great effort, Carlo. (german friend 25.11.2007). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.60.164.8 (talk) 11:00, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for the answers.
This is Jema974 who made the tables and not me (I gave him the results but he's done the job) in the French site and he is now doing the same for Rosewall (before he did it for Lendl, McEnroe, Connors, Nastase, Borg and perhaps others). germanfriend : before making Laver stats I will do Rosewall's stats in the english version (I will redo the existing table) and it will take time because I haven't much myself : I don't own a home computer but I use sometimes a professional one as at the right moment. Carlo Colussi (talk) 12:11, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Hobart 1960 won by Martin Mulligan and not by Laver

I've erased, under the IP Address 212.23.162.37, Hobart 1960 because this is Mulligan who won it and not Laver. Carlo Colussi (talk) 11:56, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Overwriting

Someone called Tennis Expert seemingly is overwriting some passages of the article, i think in good will. But he should be careful not to put facts on false places. I had never written that Laver didn't play many majors since 1970 due to injuries. He had back problems were dating back to spring 1971, when he was rushed to a hospital from the Chicago WCT tournament, and it got worse in late 1972, when he couldn' play the European segment of the WCT tour in autumn.Since 1973 he had great intervalles, when he didn't play the tour. In 1974 he had some knee injuries. In the Betty Laver book his business activities in tennis camps are detailled listed. But tennis Expert is now overly critical with citations. That the promotional disputes between the ITF and the WCT, prevented Laver from competing at AO and RG 1970 and Wim 1972, and that the tensions influenced his absence at RG 1971 and Forest Hills 1971, is a fact. That Laver was Nr. 2 to Rosewall in 1963, is established in the leading reference, the McCauley-book. That his 1968 LA win over Rosewall was one of his finest performances, is stated by McCauley, by Collins Total Tennis, and if you want a different source, by Arthur Ashe in at least two of his books, including Portrat in Motion. Ok, if you want citations for in my view pretty harmless,not biased comments, i will give them (german friend, 6.12. 2007). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.60.176.164 (talk) 13:52, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Hi. I confirm these statements : in particular Ashe indeed considered the 1968 LA final as a great Laver achievement. About Laver's injury we know he was handicapped in the 1972 US Open against Cliff Richey and then almost never played until the 1973 WCT circuit. Betty Laver who wrote the book "The Red-headed Rocket from Rockhampton" picked Laver's pro rankings (n°2 in 1963/1964, n°1 in 1965/1966/1967) from the pro organization of the time. All the sources are indicated in the small paragraph entitled "Overall singles titles of Rod Laver 1960-1976 (184):
Sources: Joe McCauley, History of Professional Tennis, London 2001; Michel Sutter, Vainqueurs-Winners 1946-1991, Paris 1992; Rod Laver (with Bud Collins), The Education of a Tennis Player, New York 1971; John Barrett, World of Tennis Yearbook 1970-1976, London 1970-1976; Betty Laver, The Red-headed Rocket from Rockhampton, Rockhampton 2001."
Ashe's source can eventually be added, Bud Collins's and World Tennis (USA) magazine too. Carlo Colussi (talk) 12:04, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Now, this Mr. tennis expert is going wild a bit. Why you don't answer or ask your questions on this discussion side? Carlo, Jeffrey and me, have our knowledge not only from the webside, but also from real, physical books, and from experience, because we saw them play and followed their careers back in the late 60s and 70s. All the sources are cited, but i think, an article becomes unreadable, if you add citations after every set or phrase. If some writes, that Federer had one of his finest performances, when he beat Hewitt at USO 6-0,7-6,6-0, I think its quite plausible, given two bagel sets in a final.If Laver beats Rosewall at LA 1968 4-6,6-0,6-0, i think, everyone except maybe Mr. tennis expert will assume, even without other sources, that this must have been a quite impressive performance. Please Mr.tennis expert, go to a library and read a real book (only one real book) on tennis, like Collins 'Total Tennis', and you will find all incriminated phrases as absolute true.(german friend 12.12. 2007) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.60.164.178 (talk) 20:52, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Hello german friend. How many wins have you for Laver over gonzales in 1969 . I have 4; 2 one night stands and 2 finals in the US summer season jeffreyneave 2007 31 dec —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jeffreyneave (talk • contribs) 20:24, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
Jeffrey, i had commented on my addings on the discussion side, but it doesn't show up on the full side. I had added the citations of Ashe, for the numbers of titles won and my count of the Laver-Gonzales head to head, mainly because on many internet sides the myths exists, that Gonzales has a positive head to head over Laver. That's simply not true, especially it is not an indication for the superiority of a player. My count, based on McCauley, Laver/ Collins and the World of tennis yearbooks, was 34 to 16 (maybe 17,18). For 1968 i have 4-2, for 1969 4-0 (possible more wins for Laver in NTL tournaments in 1968 and 69), and for 1970 2-2: 2 wins for Gonzales at the New York Classic first round and the Las Vegas final, 2 wins for Laver at the Classic semi at MSG and in the quarters of Vancouver. By the way, on the Rosewall discussion side i have pointed to a new list of the Laver-Rosewall head to head by a poster on Tennis Warehouse Talk, which has more detailled information about the 1963 World Series. For 1963 he has 30-12 in favor of Rosewall, overall 76-58 in favor of Laver.In 1969 he has one more win of Laver at the Dutch pro round robin 6-3,2-6,6-1. On the Kramer assertations, which were put into the article by Hartford Peirce: in a interview with Steve Flink in 2002, it is available on the Steve Flink webside, Kramer had put Laver in between the best 5 of all time, togther with Vines, Budge, Gonzales and Sampras. Obviously he has changed his mind since 1978. Maybe we should make a link to this article (german friend 1.1.2008). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.60.129.31 (talk) 19:51, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
Hello german friend. Thank you for confirming my 1969 count. My count is year by year '64 Laver 5 Gonzales 8 (includes scarborough); '65 9-4 ; '66 2-2; '67 8-2; '68 5-2 ; '69 4-0 ; '70 2-2. This gives Laver a 35-20 edge. The only ntl event I have not seen the full draw for in '69 is Laver's win at Orlando over Rosewall. I saw your link to the warehouse talk and I am very pleased that someone has tracked down this extra match at the Dutch round robin. I use to think this was a 4 man rr, but found out it was 8 man with 2 groups of 4 earlier this year. There were some upsets at this event with Ralston beating Rosewall on clay. On the 1963 results I am slightly suspicious of Laver winning twice by the same score 6-0, 6-3 at MSG; once in the 6 man phase and once in the final play-off phase. jeffreyneave 2 jan 2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jeffreyneave (talk • contribs) 19:12, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
Yes, Jeffrey, the 6-0,6-3 score at MSG could be a double citing or a typo. I was suspicious, too. But otherwise the results seem to be solid and quite complete. Apparently there were two phases of the World Series in 1963, with the second beginning in late April and ending in late May. McCauley, without results, has a count of 14-4 for the second phase. In the new list by Andrew Tas it is 10-2. Maybe one should somehow check the begin and end dates of the second phase, as they are known, to confirm a count here. But for the first phase and the Sydney match in February, the new list has valuable new information. The Dutch pro must have been the French Open warm up event at Amsterdam in May 1969, which was won by Gimeno. I didn't know, that it was a round robin. But it correspondents with Your findings.

One question to all the people who are more familiar with the Wikipedia politics: Is it possible to make links to you tube websides? In the last months, some valid historical matches of Laver were put on you tube, including his matches with Roche (AO), Rosewall (RG) and Ashe (Wimbledon) in 1969, with Connors (Las Vegas) in 1975 and with Borg (Hilton Head) in 1977. It would be useful historical source material as appendix to the article(german friend 2.1.2008) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.60.185.107 (talk) 19:57, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

You cannot add links to youtube materials unless you can prove that the video on youtube does not violate copyright law. This is a legal thing, not a "Wikipedia politics" thing. Tennis expert (talk) 20:15, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for the information. Sad, that there are legal problems, would be usefull additional video material. Now, Mr. Expert you seem to change or regroup the whole article, now the titles numbers. I cannot say, that it is more readable now. In the titles section, it is quite irritating, that now no real numbers are put in for the open years. Maybe we should shut out the faulty ATP webside dates as a whole, some had put them in before i saw the article for the fisrt time. On the ITF (International tennis Federation) webside, there are accessable some of the open title wins of Laver (with full draws), which the faulty ATP webside doesn't have. I would like best, that the fine data of the French Wikipedia edition could be copied into the English article (german friend 2.1.2008). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.60.173.168 (talk) 21:22, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
Why don't you just call me "Tennis expert" (my user name) instead of "Mr. Expert" or "So-called Expert" or whatever other disparaging (implicitly or explicitly) names you guys consistently throw my away? Honestly, I don't like separating the ATP website results from the full results, either. I just cleaned up the information while retaining the format that someone else had put in the article. If those results are going to be combined, then I definitely believe that the table format should be preserved. Tennis expert (talk) 22:03, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
Carlo and Jeffrey and Tennis expert, I think, it would be best, if the data of the French version could be copied into the article. They have the table format and dates of wins with final opponent and results. In regard of the Gonzales and Hoad head to heads and the problem of placing it, this could be integrated together with the Rosewall head to head in a section "Main rivalries", substituting the existing Rosewall rivalry. We could add on the basis of all main sources (not only the ATP webside) the head to heads with Emerson, maybe Fraser, Gimeno, Newcombe, Ashe and others. This could ba a good overview over the main competition in Laver's career. I have seen such section in the Sampras and Federer article.(german friend 4.1.2008) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.60.146.31 (talk) 10:03, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
I have been working on an English language version of the French table for Rod Laver's career singles titles. You can see my progress in my sandbox. Tennis expert (talk) 03:25, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
            • LAVER V. GONZALES

a search through the London Times and the google archives produced additional information on the Orlando pro played on the 10 and 11 Feb 1969. In the sf Laver beat Gonzales 9-7 ,6-2 and Rosewall beat Emerson 6-4, 6-2.. As we already know Laver beat Rosewall in the final. In the 3rd place match Emerson beat gonzales. This extra win for Laver gives him a 5-0 edge in 1969 over Gonzales. In the open era Laver has 12-4 edge and overall a career edge of 36-20.

jeffreyneave 17 feb 2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.157.222.217 (talk) 19:54, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Nice new information, Jeffrey, for Emersons head-to-head with Gonzales, too, of which the myth says, that Emmo didn't have a win. I would also support, that all Laver titles should be counted for every year, and that the ATP list, which is suspect, should not be given priority. These 'additional' titles are to the greater part highly important titles over the years. Mr Tennis expert should edit his English version of the French data or simply copy the French data. If some can copy them,i will make the English translations.I am also working on a Laver-Emerson head to head, which is difficult for the amateur period.I principally rely on Sutter and Betty Laver, wo cover foremost the finals. (German friend 18.2.2008) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.60.139.133 (talk) 20:37, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
Do you guys actually read this talk page? See my posts above. I AM WORKING ON IT! Tennis expert (talk) 20:52, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
Hello Tennis expert. Perhaps you should precise where your sandbox is, users aren't all used to every Wikipedia tool  : User:Tennis expert/Sandbox. Carlo Colussi (talk) 12:47, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
hello german friend, Looking forward to seeing your Laver/Emerson list. I hope I can add some extra ones once you have finished it. My head to head for Gonzales/Emerson at the moment is 3-1 for Gonzales 1968; 2-0 for Emerson 1969; and 3-0 for Emerson 1970. jeffreyneave 20 feb 2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.157.222.217 (talk) 20:48, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
Hello Germanfriend and Jeffreyneave. I've first answered you in the Talk page of Pancho Gonzales but at the time I hadn't noticed the Orlando meeting between Laver and Gonzales. So if I trust your latest records (12-4 and 36-20), then the new ones are 12-5 in the open era and 36-21 because Gonzales defeated Laver in spring 1970 at Cape Town, see Talk:Pancho Gonzales for details. Carlo Colussi (talk) 13:03, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] French to English

Because it would take too much time for me to translate the French passage I've added into English I let everyone who want to do it instead of me : because it is mainly tables it isn't hard to translate but the main thing to change is the flags templates.

The French passage is coming from the French site and has been done by Jema 974, my french colleague

Few indications

Herbe = Grass Terre battue = Clay Dur = Hard Ciment = Cement Titre = Title Année = Year banlieue = suburb

(you can translate very easily the months)

If some words aren't understable don't hesitate to ask me in the talk page.

Thank you very much in advance and sorry for the added work but it would save me very much time. Carlo Colussi (talk) 13:49, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

As I've already said, I am working on this in my sandbox. No need to add French language information to English Wikipedia. Tennis expert (talk) 20:03, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
Thanks a lot. If you have time, courage and pleasure, you or anybody else can do the same for Pancho Gonzales because my french colleague has done it too for the American player in the French site. Carlo Colussi (talk) 10:51, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

There is still no English version of the French stats. And I cannot find any sandbox by Tennis Expert. The current state with the false prevalence of the incomplete ATP stats is not amusing, and is a big disadvantage for the article. As i said before, i will translate the French stats into English. What i cannot do - i am no computer expert - is the thing with the flags, colours and other details. So, if someone can copy the French version into the English text, i will translate it. One other thing: Has anyone an idea, to delete or remove the precaution above the article. The article has got a B rating in various wiki projects, and apparently is inscribed in an 0.7 version of Wikipedia(what ever that means). Its apparently pretty good. And it is - as is the Rosewalll article - frequently cited in newspapers, tennis blogs (Tennis Magazine for example) and forums.(German friend, 10.4.2008). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.62.106.183 (talk) 18:44, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

You apparently did not look very hard. My sandbox for the Rod Laver statistics. The Rod Laver article is not very good. That is why it has a "B" rating instead of a higher one. The Rosewall article is even worse. The criteria for a "B" article is as follows: "Has several of the elements described in 'start', usually a majority of the material needed for a completed article. Nonetheless, it has significant gaps or missing elements or references, needs substantial editing for English language usage and/or clarity, balance of content, or contains other policy problems such as copyright, NPOV or NOR." Tennis expert (talk) 23:18, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
I could see it now on the sandbox. If you put it on the real side, i will make slight corrections, especially for surfaces. For example, Cannes in 1963 was played on an indoor court. Anyway the Federer article has also B rating, and no precaution remark. And its quite laughable, that these articles with real good information (like the Rosewall article) is rated as worse, while the bloody awful ATP side is cited as a Holy Bible. Go to Tennis warehouse forum past players, and you find good contrubions by many editors here along with remarks by famous tennis journalists and encyclopedists.And i tell you, that the tennis publications are waking up on these questions, and they will cite these complete stats. The truth will win(german friend, 11.4.2008). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.60.142.165 (talk) 08:43, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
The quality of a Wikipedia article is only partly dependent on the accuracy of the statistics therein. This is an encyclopedia, not a forum; therefore, article quality depends on many different factors that Wikipedia editors have adopted by consensus. A Wikipedia article should not be like the Association of Tennis Professionals website or a tennis-related forum. The objectives are completely different. Like it or not, Wikipedia is about verifiability, not truth. See WP:V. The sooner you realize this, the more productive and less frustrated you'll be on Wikipedia. Tennis expert (talk) 16:22, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

I cannot understand, why people always try to undermine reasoanable statements. The Wembley pro and the US pro were the most prestigious events in 1964. Why try to diminish this clear achievement? The pro had three majors, but there was also a hierarchy between these events, not for all years i accept. The Us pro had a slump around 1960 before going to Boston. Write that on the Gonzales article or seomewhere else. But for 1964 the statement is correct, going by all accounts of Collins, McCauley and others. So simply leave this things, its better (german Friend 4.6.08) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.60.165.27 (talk) 18:59, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Talking of quality. Is there any tennis related article, which has got more than a B rating? And whoever gives these ratings, this article seems quite good. Tere are many articles with much more subjective opinions as the Federer article, the Borg or the Gonzales article. And they have no precaution remark. And i still think, that truth matters.And not, what one can find on other internet sides (german friend, 11.4.2008). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.60.156.192 (talk) 17:33, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Talking of ecyclopedic. If i read on the Federer article things like : he kicked around footballs as a kid, or he is a Roman Catholic and met the Pope, and other nice or weird, but absolutely non essential things, i really doubt, if that is a kind of encyclopedic in the tradition of the great French encyclopedists like Diderot (german friend 12.4.2008) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.60.153.32 (talk) 08:21, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

I hadn't visited the side since a few days, now the stats data seem to be put on the main side, thanks to tennis expert. Why has someone put a precaution mark on the section? I will do, together with Carlo and Jeffrey, from my sources a few corrections regarding the surface question, which indeed is often difficult to answer.On tennis warehouse just yesterday, Andrew Tas has put a solid list of Laver-Emerson confrontations with a score of 43-18. Jeffrey and myself have added 4 additional wins for Laver.I have put the overall stats 47-18 on the main side, together with the head to heads with Gonzales and Ashe. We should add the head to heads with famous players, who were long time contemporaries of Laver, like Newcombe, Hoad, Roche, Gimeno maybe Fraser, to get a fuller picture of his career. (German friend 25.4.2008) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.60.184.113 (talk) 15:14, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

It's my work that Carlo copied and pasted from my sandbox into the main article, without my permission and over my objections. I put the precaution on it because my work was incomplete when Carlo did this. Jeffreyneave is blocked for a couple more days from editing due to personal attacks and incivility. Tennis expert (talk) 15:29, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Mr "Tennis expert", please let my inputs stand, if you don't have an understanding of tennis history. Please read the wikipedia article on the Wembley tournament, in which it is cited, that the Wembley event was indeed the most prestigious pro event. I simply cannot understand, that someone for the whole day is looking for these tennis articles, to cancel contributions. Please go to other articles like the Federer article and delete all the crap, which is written there (German friend, 6.6.2008) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.60.171.19 (talk) 08:51, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Stop being incivil. WP:AGF All you have to do is cite verifiable sources for your opinions. Otherwise, your opinions cannot be included in Wikipedia. Pretty simple policy, really. Tennis expert (talk) 20:33, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

I cannot find any incivility in my comments.But better than always looking to delete contributions, keep an eye on the ATP webside. Because they begin to change their stats for the early open period, your own statistical articles in Wikipedia are becoming obsolete. According to our friend Lucio, the ATP will now include more WCT events and early open and pro events for the late 60s, the 70s and early 80s. So better look on your own articles of tennis statistics to correct the obsolete numbers (German friend 9.6.8) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.60.190.184 (talk) 14:42, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

I guess I have to spell-it-out for you. The following statements of yours were incivil: (1) "if you don't have an understanding of tennis history" (2) "someone for the whole day is looking ... to cancel contributions" (3) "Please go to ... the Federer article [instead of here] and delete all the crap ... written there." Finally, your belief that I rely on the ATP for my tennis contributions is completely and utterly erroneous and ridiculous. Tennis expert (talk) 17:54, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Uh, Uh, you are not relying on the ATP stats, which the articles 'Tennis statistics' say? What else are your sources, in cannot find sources properly cited anywhere? Now, is your work original research? Can this aply to the Wikipedia rules? And to the Federer article: That Federer makes his holidays in Dubay or on the Swiss Alps or somewehre else, is that in any way of any encyclopedic interest? That he played football as a kid, that he met the Pope, that he eats Swiss chocolate or likes black underwear or something, is that encyclopedic? I think, it is crap. (German friend 10.6.8). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.60.137.96 (talk) 14:15, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

(1) There is nothing to prevent YOU from editing the Federer article. Be my guest. (2) Geez, Tennis statistics is not "my" article, just as the Rod Laver article is not "your" article. And where exactly does that article state it is relying on the ATP website? Where? If you want an idea about the huge variety of sources I use, have a look at my hundreds of contributions to the Billie Jean King article. Tennis expert (talk) 18:28, 10 June 2008 (UTC)