User talk:Robi123

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Welcome!

Hello, Robi123, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are some pages that you might find helpful:

I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you need help, check out Wikipedia:Questions, ask me on my talk page, or ask your question and then place {{helpme}} after the question on your talk page. Again, welcome!  JetheroTalk 04:21, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Your notes on Talk:Aqua Detox

Interesting contributions, thank you!. I'd like to incorporate the risk of chromium/nickle contamination and other facts into the main article, as it sounds important. What you have written, however, would qualify as original research (see WP:NOR). While from your writing I presume that it can all be referenced; would you help by providing references for each of your major points? Or even better, an existing review article in a credible secondary source? (See WP:RS) (the link you showed to the german article was not active).

JetheroTalk 04:21, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree about WP:NOR. Another problem is that much of this material is isn't directly relevant. It's as if you were writing an article about the Acme Improved Mousetrap, and collected everything you could find about the properties of metal springs, the aromatic compounds in cheese, the various species of mice, etc etc - all undoubtedly true, but not direct third-party comment about the Acme Improved Mousetrap.
Same here: we don't need a humungous free-association about how electrolysis of water works, the colours of metal salts, metal toxicity from orthopedic implants, and background on vaguely similar techniques. In particular, galvanotherapy and iontophoresis differ radically, in that their setups actively pass current via the body; with Aqua Detox and variants, the body isn't part of the circuit.
Also, we really need to know the source of this material. Who is referring to themselves in this section you posted?
all the references given are open to the public, I put the references exactly at the place where they are directing to, not a summary, as usual done in wikipedia; meanwhile there are more tan 30 citations; Better look up the latest version of the article. to my knowledge only one vendor has published a study on spa bath, which results I incorporated and citated. There are 2 other heavy critical scientific articles on the use of spa which I also incorporated, geman language, another in russian; there is no WP:NOR. All can be retrieved from published literature, not my fault that’s not all in english; I think structure of the article is good, as a rerader I am interested in knowing what is going on with the spa bath. From the literature and comments here in wikipedia I don`t know what to believe, because not sound results, all emotional, i.e. like or dislike. and- you are wrong: spa bath has been used in the past history (have given refrences), second the current goes thru the body, if you don`t believe just do the experiments as outlined in the literature, think its important information from published literature. And there is no vendor anywhere being intersted in coming up with those info taken together here; vendors are simple persons not knowing anything from chemistry, otherwise would not use such a spa bath. And who should be referred with this article? Is there any direction towards spa bath, iontophoresis or supplier of material? The conclusion is that the vendors and industry should come up with sound clinical studies. No clinical studies have been done yet showing the biological safety of the spa bath. And yes, I do referr in this article to myself as a patient. Is that wrong?Robi123 19:09, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
Hi
this the new edition with certain references incorporated, if you need more, just mark it, where you would like to have them, we have tons of it, the internetlink works now, hope so. We think the artricle needs formation, in order to be quickly readable? The chemical reactions are of major importance in order to understand what s going on. Can somebody put them in a readable order? In addition a technical description should be given for spa bath, and where it is used by the public, so that the reader can find it easily in the wikipedia.
If you are relaying material direct from a vendor - maybe a German supplier of galvanic spa baths? - this relationship should be in the open, to avoid conflict of interest issues. 86.140.110.30 18:15, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] notes on aqua detox

Hi, here is an article which I errected together with a colleague working in the same field, i.e toxicology. I appreciate your notes, comments etc. We think it needs proper formation. Where would an innocent person not know what we (specialists) want to transmit? We think it is a very important issue for the coomon people to get qualified information.


Aqua Detox http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aqua_Detox Spa bath See also Aqua detox, Body Detox, Foot Detox Spa, Bio Detox, Bio-Sync Detox, Platinum Detox, ionSpa, Mary Staggs Ionic Spa, Water Detox, Bionic HydroTherapy, Baby-D Foot Spa, IonCleanse, Hydra Detox, Energy Balancer Detox Footbath, Aqua-Chi, Emerald Detox, Bio-Cleanse, Q2 Energy Spa, Ionic Detox Box, Pure-Charge Energetic Spa, P.E.P. Body Purge, PediTox, is a procedure based on galvanic DC circuit, employed also in stangerbad, and iontophoresis thru an array of stainless steel, which is used by “healing centers” and lay persons for treatment of dysfunctions of the body. It is partly advertised misleadingly for medical treatment of diseases without having presented any scientific proof up to date. For recent publications see under aqua detox. In order to understand the procedure employed by many users it is necessary to understand the basic electrochemical and biochemical reactions emerging from the stainless steel electrode of a spa bath to the human body. Most of the spa baths are empolying a stainless steel array, therefor we are concentrating on that array.


I.) Physico-Chemical Reactions at the Electrodes under DC Circuit'


Most spa baths are using arrays are composed of surgical steel (V2A, stainless steel, or CrNi177 steel). Stainless steel is a good conductor, has a low degree of electric resistance, is chemically inert material, i.e. free of auto-oxydation due to passivation, and is a well known material in medicine and household. Most sorts of V2A steel are composed of iron (up to 80 -90 %w/w,) chromium (up to 20% w/w), nickel (up to 6 % w/w), manganese (up to 2% w/w) and always 1 % w/w of elements, not determined by chemical analysis. The stainless steel array of the spa bath is operated on low voltage DC circuit (12 volts, concuctivity up to 1.1 mS, up to 2 A, temperature of the spa bat : 30 - 35 degrees Celsius), resulting in a process of galvanatised electrolysis. In medical electrotheray “galvanic” means “direct current” circuit (DC). In electrochemical reactions we have a positively charged anode and a negatively charged kathode, wherein the anode is also known as sacrificial anode. Sacrificial anode means that during the operation of the spa bath the anodic loss of stainless steel material will account for chromium by approx. 200 mg and nickel by 60 mg (total weight of the array 100 gram, i.e. 1 m length, diameter of 3 mm, duration of operation of 30 min, 12 volt, up to 2 ampere). Under DC circuit operation of the spa bath, there are several physico-chemical reactions which have to be recognised in order to understand any effect of the spa bath on the human body, which are in brief:


(1) diffusion of ions of the spa bath (e.g. sodium and chloride) to the counter charged electrode, e.g. negative charged ions of the solution will diffuse to the positive charged anode;


(2) liberation of positively charged metallic ions from the sacrificial anode into the solution of the spa bath, such as chromium-III, nickel-II, manganese-II, iron-III;


(3) reaction of ions of the solution (in general water, and sodium chloride) with the surface of the sacrificial anode and kathode; the anode is generating positively charged protons and partly negatively charged hydroxy ions, which are released into the solution; electrons left behind in the metallic structure of the stainless steel electrode are transported to the kathode via the connecting wire; negatively charged chlorine ions of the solution are migrating to the anode and are oxydised to chlorine (gas), which is evaporating, as the users of the spa bath can smell, another part of the chlorine gas is reacting with the metallic surface of the anode of the stainless steel electrode resulting in the destruction of the metallic surface structure, i.e. precipitation of salts such as chromium-chloride, nickel-cloride, or iron-chloride. The following chemical reactions are taking place at the positively charged anode and negative kathode of the preferred array made of stainless steel; similar reactions tale place with arrays made of platinum, palladium, or titanium:


Kathode (negative pole)


i) 2 H30+ + 2e = H2 (hydrogen gas) + H2O (water)


ii) ½ O2 + H2O + 2 e = 2 OH- (hydroxy ion)


2 OH- + Me2+ = Me(OH)2


Me is the abbreviation for metall ions from the array; e.g. chromium, nickel, iron, zinc, manganese, platinum, titanium, or palladium, depending on the alloy of the electrode; Me(OH)2 is the colored metallic-hydroxyd-cover on the surface of the electrode, consisting of the metallic ion and hydroxy ions, protecting the electrode against quick degradation;


Anode (positive pole)


i) 2 OH- =H2O + ½ O2 (oxygen) + 2e


ii) Me = Me2+ + 2e


iii) Me2+ migration to the epidermis of the skin, entry to the body thru the sweat glands.


(4) reaction of the ions of the solution with metallic ions of the stainless steel anode resulting in the precipitation of metallic oxydes and hydroxydes, e.g. chromium-hydroxyde, nickel-hydroxyde, iron-hydroxyde; those ions, complexes and precipitates are colored, e.g. chromium-III-hydroxyde is light green, iron-III-hydroxyde is reddish-brown, manganese-IV-oxyde is dark brown. This combination of colors, slowly developing while operating the foot bath, is generated by the metallic ions from the stainless steel electrode. If one takes an electrode made by platinium, or titanium no change of the color will occure, since both elements are positively charged, not generating colored complexes in solution;


(5) reduction-oxydation-reactions among the metallic ions of the solution, released from the anode, e.g. oxydation of the positively charged chromium-III to the negatively charged chromium-VI thru reaction with iron-III ions; this are highly active ions, i.e. ions in statu nascendi being capable of reacting with other structures e.g. skin of the human body;


(6) kathodic reduction and precipitation of metallic ions, and generation of negatively charged hydroxy ions, the latter ones reacting with positively charged metallic ions such as chromium-III.


II.) Bio-physical Reactions on the human Body under DC Circuit


Both the released and activated metallic ions and the electromagnetic field of the array are acting in concert on the human body. In general three basic bio-physical effects will be recognised, i.e. as (1) electrothermal, (2) electrophysical and (3) electrochemical. Depending on the resistance and conductivity of the array, the temperature of the spa bath will slightly increase during current operation. Since stainless steel is a good electrical conductor one observes only small temperature increases up to 2 degrees Celsius in a volume of 5 liter of water over a period of 30 min of operation. This might have the same effect on feet as seen with an ordenary foot bath as known from hydrotherapy. The electromagnetic field of the array might also contribute to the improved circulation in the periphery of the body due to interference with paramagnetic ions of tissue and blood stream, which is known as “galvanic hyperthemia”. However the electromagnetic field is only indirectly involved in this electrophysical effect, since the array is placed between feet or hands, not going directly thru body parts. Due to the Bayliss reflex , a vasomotor reflex, blood flow will increase by improving circulation and oxygen supply to the local tissue. Carbondioxyd and other metabolic products are taken away from local tissue by the increased blood flow. Wound healing has been reported – under DC circuit – in medical literature ( ref 1, 2), however not yet under the use of the spa bath. This might also be accompanied by forced diuresis liberating metabolic products thru the kidney and skin (sweat gands), as it is known from thermal mineral bath or from occupational and environmental health studies in hot work places such as at a smelter or geographical hot regions (ref 3). In addition urinary diuresis, local blood perfusion at the lower limbs, and lymphatic drainage might also be due to the well known cutaneous-visceral reflex of L5 / S1 (if the feet are placed in the bath). Users of the spa bath are reporting on an increased urinary output after several applications, similarily as seen after foot massage. All those effects together can be termed as “regulation” of homoeostasis or “detoxification”. However the major differerence between the array of the spa bath and other – traditional – procedures for improving circulation and detoxification is the stainlees steel electrode used by producers around the world. Stainless steel is a robust alloy, good conductor with little resistance and capacity of chemical passivation, which makes it resistant against oxydation. And it is an inexpensive material. However under the influence of DC circuit the stainless steel array will act like a sacrificial anode, degrading and releasing ions into the spa bath which are regarded as highly toxic. Under electrical current, chromium-, nickel-, manganese-, and iron-ions are released from the anode, as explained under I.3.) of this article. Those ions are charged positively, complexed by molecules of water, and can migrate under the influence of the electromagnetic field of the array to the negatively charged skin of the feet of the user of the spa bath. The skin of feet and hand has more than 2000 sweat glands per square centimeter, which not only are liberating metabolic products from the body but also can pick up ions from the spa bath. This is a well known effect from iontophoresis. In addition it has been shown that chromium and nickel ions are absorbed from the bath thru the skin. 6-10 hours after having used the V2A stainless steel electrode one will find a tsunami of chromium and nickel in the urine, i.e. chromium up to 16 microgram per gram creatinine and nickel up to 25 microgram per gram creatinine, and copper was 100 microgram per gram creatinine. This was published by the swiss based company “Body Detox AG” in German language in the internet (ref-6), as a documention of “detoxification” of heavy metals. Surprising, if the same patients were using the platinium electrode, all of the sudden, no chromium and nickel was found in the urine, but platinium, which was not present under the use of the stainless steel array. In contrast workers in galvanic industry having been exposed to chromium, nickel thru protective close over an 8 – hour - work – shift do not have more than 1 – 5 microgram per 1 gram of creatinine of each of those elements in the urine, as we know from occupational and environmental health studies. Workers in galvanic industry exposed to chromium or nickel must wear protective clothes, ventilation must be placed over the chromium / nickel bath, a yearly check on the concentration of nickel and chromium must be done (no more than 50 microgram Ni or Cr per cubicmeter of air is allowed, due to regulations of the european union).


III.) Toxicity of Electrodes made of stainless Steel, Platinium, Titanium


Stainless steel is releasing chromium-, nickel-, manganese and iron ions from a stationary matrix. Chromiumions, i.e. chromium-hexavalent which is generated under the electrolytic process of the spa bath equipped with a stainless steel electrode is the cause of occupational cancer of the lung and nose. (ref 4). The same is observed with nickel-II-ions. Every dermatologist knows the allergic reactions due to ear rings made of chromium, nickel, or cobald. Again from occupational medicine we know the effect on the skin of construction workers in building industry of chromium-III-salts, being present in cement or cement concrete. They are causing eczema, are capable of penetrating the skin and getting absorbed by the subepidermal tissue. Alloys made of chromium and nickel have been banned from orthopedic implants due to the fact that more than 10% of the patients with hip replacement have shown allergic reactions to the stainless steel alloy. In this medical field other, non toxic alloys made of tantal, or niob are now used. Arrays covered with platinium (10 micrometer thickness, core metall is titanium) and used in the spa bath are also degraded in terms of the sacrificial anode. They are releasing platinium ions into the spa bath from where they are absorbed by the body. They are quicker degrading if the pH is well above 7 and chloride is present. The same can be observed with arrays made of titanium. Both metals are the cause of allergic skin and lung reactions, as we – again – know from work medicine. Dental workers, e.g. exposed to metal dust of platinium, palladium, or nickel (which is used in dental medicine as NiTi-alloy) are very often suffering from generalised allergic reactions. In some countries of the European Union, such allergies are regarded as occupational diseases and recognised by workman`s compensation system, if attracted at the work place.


III.a.) Public Discussion on Galvanotherapy and Cancer in 2007


From the medical point of view one cannot follow the ads of some producers, traders and “health centers” that solid tumors, i.e. cancer can be treated, prevented or counter acted by the application of electrodes of the spa bath, releasing carcinogenic metallic ions such as nickel-II or chromium-VI. Certainly, platinum-chloro-complexes such as carboplatin, cisplatin, oxyplatin are used for systemic treatment of e.g. metastatic ovary cancer, but it is highly questionable whether an array of a spa bath made of platinum can have the same effect. In addition spa bath treatment or alongside treatment of people suffering from cancer might negatively interfer with the well established pharmacological treatment due to induction on metallothionein which is known to neutralise the platinum derivatives of cancer therapy. Finally due to the possible induction of metallothionein from the authors of this article it is not recommended to use the spa bath, iontophoresis, stangerbad or any other means of electrotherapy before or along the cancer chemotherapy without appoval of the responsible doctor or treatment center. To date no data are available on the positive effect of such metioned means of galvanotherapy. In order not to disregard the spa bath – as a possible future part of alternative medicine - such ads must be prevented by the responsible industry, manufacturer, producer, trader, or “health center”. At this site it has to be noted that certain medical centers, appoved by the National Health Centers of the European Union are using hyperthermia, an other art of galvanotherapy, for treatment of cancer.


III.b.) Conclusion:


Taking all the scientific data together on the spa bath, the user should be very carefull operating on the V2A-stainless steel electrode. Due to toxic reactions on the human body one should recommend not to use electrodes made of stainless steel, platinium, palladium or titanium in medical electrotherapy operating on DC circuit.


IV.) Is there harmless Material for Arrays operating under DC Circuit?


New electrode materials for medical electrochemical application , i.e. spa bath, iontophoresis or stangerbad, focus on material free of toxic reactions to users, should have chemically stable surfaces under DC circuit similar to stainless steel, low electrochemical overpotentials, i.e. highly positive electrochemical potential; in addition the electrodes must be ready available, inexpensive and provide a high grade of conductivity. There are different alloys empolyed for the use as cardio-vascular implant. They are non toxic to the human body, i.e. no allergic reaction, or the cause of cancer is known. Those alloys are exellent conducters, have low electrical resistance, enough stability to form arrays for application in a spa bath, and are also degrading under DC circuit. However those materials are protected by patent law and are not yet available by the free state of the art. Other material such as gold, silver, molybdenium, or vanadium, is highly conductive, non toxic but not recommended for use in spa bath due to the stiffness of the material and its high costs. Elements being present in the human body such as sodium, potassium, magnesium or zinc are not useable as electrodes of the spa bath due to their heighly negative electrochemical potential, resulting in quick degradation of the material of the array under DC circuit. In addition those elements are well known for increase of the pH of the electrolytic solution, e.g. metallic sodium is reacting aggressively with water under generation of explosive concentrations of hydrogen. Magnesium and zinc are melting away under the influence of DC circuit of 2 ampere (12 volts, conductivity of the electrolytic bath of 1.1 mS, 34 degrees Celsius) and are also dissociating the solution of the spa bath.


V.) Therapeutic application of the spa bath?


Taking all to gether the bio-physico-chemical effects of the spa bath one might arrive at the conclusion that the use of the spa bath might be of advantage for the human body – in a range of other procedures known from alternative medicine, such as thermal bath, iontophoresis, foot massage, or just doing exercise on a regular base. It is part of the medical treatment of chronic rheumatic diseases, such as gout or fibromyalgia to use alternative medicine, even if it is just nordic walking (in order to incerase the oxygen supply to the body). The electrochemical spa bath should also allowed to be used by the people in the same way as other means of hydrotherapy in order to comfort oneself. Howevewer unless the spa bath has not shown that it can provide medical treatment in the same way as the stangerbad or iontophoresis it must not advertise any medical treatment. There is a hugh body of old literature from the 19th century when the procedures of galvanotherpy were born. In Europe Golding Bird from London, UK and Robert Remak, M.D. from Charite Hospital, Berlin and Duchenne from Paris have done a broad application and evaluation of galvanotherapy on patients. Golding Bird operated the first department of physical therapy using galvanotherpy at the Guy`hospital (now Kings College) in London, UK, around 1840. In russian medical literature one can find reports on the application of galvanic current (DC) for the detoxification if chromium salts from the body of workers (ref 5). Therefore producers, traders, “health centers”, and supporters of the spa bath should at first provide patients and users with documentations on the biological safety of their system on the human body. The user has a right on information about the spa bath regarding the change of immunolocial parameters (MELISA (ref-7)or lymphocyte – transformation –test (LTT), blood picture, blood pressure, and urinary excretion of heavy metals. Since the spa bath is operating on DC circuit the sacrificial anode must not release toxic compounds. Further they should provide studies on the positive effect of the spa bath on medical indications where they would like to support the medical state of the art. To date this has not yet been done. Producers and traders of the spa bath have to recognise that they have to reinvest part of their revenue into serious studies, if they want to claim any – even hidden - medical effect from the use of their spa bath.


VI.) References


(1) Jaffee, LF, and Vanable, JW (1984) Electric fields and woundhealing. Clin Dermatol Vol 2, p.34-44;


(2) Gault, WR, and Gates, PF (1976) Use of low intensity direct current in management of ischemic ulcers, Phys Ther, p. 56


(3) Stauber, JL, Florence, TM (1988) A comparative study of copper, lead, cadmium, and zinc in human sweat and blood, CSIRO Division of Energy Chemistry, NSW, Australia, Sci Total Environ, Augist 1, Vol 74, p 235-247 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?CMD=search&DB=pubmed


(4) Langard S., (1990) One hundred years of chromium and cancer: a review of epidemiological evidence and selected case reports. Department of Occupational Medicine, Telemark Central Hospital, Porsgrunn, Norway. Am J Ind Med. ;17(2):189-215. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=2405656&query_hl=1&itool=pubmed_DocSum


(5) Yokovl, NA, Slyusar, TA, Zalevshy, LK (1985) Endonasal electrophoresis of unitol in the treatment of patients with early symptoms of cheomium poisening. Tr Prof Zabel, (2) 13-16 (russian)


(6) Griesz-Brisson, M (2005) Effective detoxification: physico-chemical provocation of detoxification of heavy metals with the spa bath of Body Detox ® AG, Switzerland” CO`MED, an internet jounal (german). http://www.hkmed.de/Body/BD-Studie.pdf

(7) MELISA is a registered trade mark in the European Union for the use of tests of the respond of white blood cells.