Talk:Roberto Clemente/Archive 1

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Archive This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Contents

Note to editors

The writer of the article needs to mention the fact Clemente had a wife, Vera, and three sons. Any standard biography of a famous person would note a family, if any.--Susan Nunes 5/06/06

does anyone know how Clemente died?

  1. The article doesn't say anything about Clemente being a Marine, although apparently he was.
  2. What's the deal with Roberto Clemente Walker?

Happy new year, WP! One of my last contribs for 2005. Paul 23:54, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

I've added mention of Vera and his children to the abstract. I've added content to the USMC discussion below for someone else to take action on.--Mike padilla 19:53, 31 July 2007 (UTC) he went to school in san francisco

Surname

I wondered too about the name Roberto Clemente Walker. Some googling found several references to "Roberto Clemente Walker" and several to "Roberto Walker Clemente". I even found, quite unhelpfully, "Roberto (Walker) Clemente". The only place I found even the smallest partial explanation was [1], an Encyclopedia Britanica website: "For 27 years the plaque at the National Baseball Hall of Fame read 'Roberto Walker Clemente,' mistakenly placing his mother's maiden name before his father's surname. Only in 2000 was it changed to its proper Latin American form, Roberto Clemente Walker." So I suppose "Roberto Walker Clemente" follows US (and elsewhere) naming convention while "Roberto Clemente Walker" follows Latin American (or at least Puerto Rican) naming convention. Assuming this to be correct, it still does not explain why he became known as "Roberto Clemente" rather than as "Roberto Walker" to American baseball fans. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.125.99.83 (talk • contribs) 00:39, 14 February 2006

In Spain as well as Latin America, individuals take their father's last name as well as their mother's last name. Hence Clemente was his father's last name, and Walker was his mother's last name. While having two last names might be confusing it is commonplace in Latin America. One reason you might have seen it as "Roberto Walker Clemente" is likely because MLB or others wanted to avoid confusion of his last name. Hence he takes just his father's last name to blend in, if you will, to a culture where mostly everyone only has one last name. And in Latin American countries, if you were to sort a group of individuals by name, you would use their father's last name, then their mother's, and then their first name. I hope this clears things up. -- malo (tlk) (cntrbtns) 07:23, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
I found Roberto Clemente Walker here http://www.whitehouse.gov/kids/dreamteam/robertoclemente.html Terinjokes 16:49, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Number of siblings dispute

I have reverted two recent edits that attempted to change the number of siblings. The only source I have found thus far stating the number of siblings is http://www.latinosportslegends.com/clemente.htm which states 7. If someone else can find a reputable source with a different number, then by all means please post it here. Thanks -- malo (tlk) (cntrbtns) 07:11, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

I found a site that said that quote "The youngest of four children" This website claims to be te official Roberto Clemente website so they should be reliable. 4 Sibblings Stated

This site claims he is the youngest of 7: http://www.galegroup.com/free_resources/chh/bio/clemente_r.htm

Looks like this could be the answer (no source): Roberto was the youngest of Luisa's seven children (three of whom were from a previous marriage).

Roberto's mom, Luisa had 2 children from a previous marriage. Her husband died and left her a young widow. She remarried to Melchor Clemente and had 5 children, Osvaldo, Justino, Andres, Anairis and finally Roberto. Anairis died young in a fire. Source is "Clemente, The Passion and Grace of Baseball's Last Hero" pages 17-18 by David Maraniss. The article currently says four, which is clearly wrong. I'll update it to seven since Luisa is his birth mother and her older children, Luis and Rosa lived in the Carolina, PR home with the 5 younger children from her marriage to Melchor Clemente.--Mike padilla 16:12, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Abstract

I have included a short mention of the heroic way this man died in the abstract, as I feel that this is of importance.--R6rome 12:12, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree; it says a lot about who he was as a person, not just a ballplayer. However, I think the final sentence is best left later in the article. DogcatcherDrew 17:58, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Nationality in Hall of Fame

I'm trying to verify this statement: "He was elected to the Hall of Fame posthumously in 1973 as the first Hispanic American to be selected." This website: http://www.latinosportslegends.com/clemente.htm seems to say he's the first Latino player to be inducted. The statement previously read, "He was elected...in 1973 as the second Hispanic American to be selected (Lefty Gomez being the first in 1972)." The same website (http://www.latinosportslegends.com/lgomez.htm) claims Gomez was the second Hispanic player to be inducted. Gomez was b. in California, but I don't know if his heritage is from Spain or Latin America. Any help clearing this up and adding a citation in the article would be appreciated. DogcatcherDrew 17:58, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

"...making him the first Latin American player...", from "Clemente, The Passion and Grace of Baseball's Last Hero" page 243 by David Maraniss. While I think "Latin American born" would be the clearest phrase I'll update Hispanic American to Latin American as there is a verifiable source for that phrase.--Mike padilla 20:22, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

USMC

Clearly, he was a Marine, and is in the USMC sports hall of fame. Can someone please add information about when he was in Marines? DocGratis 16:07, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

I found the following "He joined the Marine Corps on 12 September 1958, and as an infantryman he would serve on active duty at Camp Lejeune until 1959; he would remain in the reserves until September 1964." at http://www.usmc-mccs.org/sports/hof/2003-clemente.cfm but do not know how to best incorporate it. From Maraniss' book it seems that joining the US armed forces was common among Puerto Ricans in general and Latin and North American ballplayers. --Mike padilla 16:12, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Email to try an get an image

I wrote this email to Bill Wilk, Executive Director of the Roberto Clemente Sports City, to try and see if we can get an image that we cna publish. I know it was a bit long-winded, but I thought an introduction to our project and rules was needed.

Mr. Bill Wilk,
I write to you as one of the thousands of editors of the online free encyclopedia Wikipedia http://www.wikipedia.org/ . I participate mostly in the English version of the encyclopedia http://en.wikipedia.org/ . As you might know, we are a unique user-edited encyclopedia, that harnesses the power of its own users, and using consensus building, seek to build the world's largest encyclopedia, in as many languages as possible.
(If you wish, you can learn more about what we are - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:About -)
I write to you because as part of my editing, I belong to group of diverse editors who volunteer with something called the "WikiProject Puerto Rico" - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:PUR -. In browsing our "To Do" list I realized there is an outstanding request for a picture of the great Roberto Clemente in his page at -http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roberto_Clemente
As a responsible endeavour, we refrain from using photographs or text that cannot be republished under our GNU Free Documentation License. This includes the requirement that all images conform to a series of legal standards, among those that they fit the criteria for fair use under copyright laws or are public domain, or that explicit permission is given by the copyright owner to republish on wikipedia, wikimedia, and other related non-profit information projects.
This is why I take the liberty of writing to you: your website contains a series of images of Roberto Clemente. Since their copyright and ownership status is not clear, other editors have refrained form using them.
However I do humbly request permission to either republish one of the images already on the website, or that you provide some sort of assistance in helping us locate a suitable, legally-cleared, publishable image of Roberto Clemente for our article.
I appreciate you taking time from your busy schedule to read this email, as well as well as in the name of my fellow editors at Wikipedia.
Sincerely,
Cxxx xxx

cerejota@xxx

--Cerejota 03:11, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

My email bounced as "email full". Webform failed. :( I will try calling the office and see what's up.--Cerejota 03:26, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
Hello. I am also trying to get an image. I have contacted the Baseball Hall of Fame and asked them to release their image of Roberto Clemente to the public domain with an e-mail similar to the one above. I hope this works! Eddie 23:43, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
They replied and said that they would not release their image into the public domain. I got the picture, but it is copyrighted. Please help by finding a better picture in the public domain. Thank you. Eddie 22:13, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
Eddie, mi pana. Am sorry but that image you placed is non-free... can't use. I found Image:200-roberto.jpg which is a painting but is free. We can use that until we get a better one. Pa'lante...--Cerejota 06:22, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
Um, "mi pana", haven't you read WP:NFC. The image was perfectly fine, until you found a better one, of course. Fair use is still allowed in Wikipedia, you know, and it was not a copyvio, as I clearly stated that I had gotten it from the Baseball Hall of Fame site. --Eddie 13:08, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
I disagree, the fair-use rationale was not good :(. Just including a rationale doesn't make it a correct one. Please read WP:COPY.--Cerejota 13:20, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
The fair use rationale was very good, mind you, as it was added by one of Puerto Rico's finest, Marcos. And, BTW, I have read WP:COPY several times, and that was not a violation. --Eddie 13:25, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
For reference by others, the fair use rationale was the following:
  • No free images have been allocated for this person.
    Image is used for promotional and educational purposes by the owner.
    Image is at least 35 years old. The image is needed to identify the player for educational purposes in an encyclopedia entry in relation to his notable baseball career.
    A replaceable free image for this person is impossible as he died in 1972.
Which, I believe, is very good. I also provided a link to the Baseball Hall of Fame site, where I got the image. --Eddie 13:29, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
But it doesn't fit any of the specific criteria for fair use set out in WP:NFC, nor are they very strong on their own. In particular, copyright law in the USA extends for 70 years, so the image is still under copyright after 35 years.
"No free images have been allocated for this person." is only a supplemental rationale, and has never stood on its own, look at any garden-variety IfD and you will see this is the #1 ignored reason.
"A replaceable free image for this person is impossible as he died in 1972." Another favorite in IfD. This is absolutely not true, just because we haven't been able to locate it, and we are still searching, doesn't mean it is impossible: he was a well known public figure, sooner or later a quality free image will appear.
"Image is used for promotional and educational purposes by the owner." this is true, but this is not a fair use rationale, in particular, you mentioned you contacted them and they disagreed with releasing the image to wikipedia.
Eddie, I hate copyrights but I am a keen defender of compliance in Wikipedia, because the GFDL - the license that wikipedia uses - allows for use of all the content for commercial purposes. That means that if we include images that cannot be sold, we would be liable for a lot of money in court. This isn't about you and me, it isn't personal.--Cerejota 14:13, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
Just so you know, I did not provide that rationale. If you have a problemo with it, contact Marcos. Secondly, those are valid rationales. That they are ignored son otros veinte pesos, if you know what I mean. --Eddie 14:32, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

greatest right fielder of all time?

ok, Clemente was great - no question - but the McCarver quote is a little overboard. The greatest right fielder of all time?!? Some guy named Babe Ruth might have a claim to that distinction...


Not sure what the discussion here is about. It is a quote that expresses an oppinion. You don't apparently agree with it but it is indicative of what one of his contemporary baseball players thought of him. McCarver apparently said this, or something like it, on his television show sometime in October of 2006. I can find references to the quote in various forms on the internet but short of a transcript of the show being put up by its producers, I don't see how a citation could be created.--Mike padilla 20:44, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

To respond to the first comment, while Babe Ruth was great; Clemente was clearly the best defensive Right fielder of all time (tied with mays for most gold gloves 12 in the outfield and clearly the most powerful arm in baseball)clemente by a land slide no doubt. JCR —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.50.34.218 (talk) 20:35, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Hall of Fame...

Wasn't Thurman Munson the next player eligible for early postumous induction in 1979?


"On March 20, 1973, the Baseball Writers Association of America held a special election for the Baseball Hall of Fame. They voted to waive the waiting period for Clemente, due to his death, and posthumously elected him for induction into the Hall of Fame, giving him 393 of the 420 available votes, or 92% of the vote. Since then, the Writers Association has made this exemption for all eligible players that die before their waiting period lapses, though it has only been exercised in practice for Darryl Kile, who died of a heart attack during the 2002 season." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.204.38.70 (talk) 15:15, 20 October 2007 (UTC)