Talk:Robert Spencer

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[edit] "Vanity" cleanup

I have removed large sections of this article, and rewritten, hastily, bits of it. It's still messy, poorly referenced, and could use a lot of work - but it looks a little bit less like a vanity page written "by me, about me". Anyhow, what I did, and why I did it:

Archived and un-messied this page.
Rewrote the intro. Citing his own website on the matter of his being a researcher is not good enough.
Removed book review tidbits, positive and negative. Irrelevant to the article - it is about him, not his books.
Removed or rewrote lots of weasel wording.
Added some "citation needed" tags to uncited claims.
Removed a ton of uncited quotes and praise that were tagged as such from before.
Removed a ton of "information" cited from his own website.

...and then some. --TVPR 12:54, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Actually, if you read any of the previous discussion, you would find how this evolved. I notice you added some information, too. (by user:AnneCr on 18:46, 16 October 2006)

First off, I did read any of the previous discussion, which was messily organized, if at all. I also noticed this is the only WP article you've ever been involved with, your first contrib ever regarding "fixing vandalism" on this article again. Yes, I'm blatantly calling you a sockpuppet. Also, "see talk before removing info" and then not presenting any new points isn't helping your cause, ie. keeping this vanity article a vanity article. --TVPR 08:55, 17 October 2006 (UTC) (PS: Please sign your comments in the future, as has been pointed out to you before by others)

What do you mean you are calling me a "sock puppet?" Did you notice how many people were involved in a back and forth discussion of what should be here? How could this possibly be a vanity artricle? I notice that you do not find it necessary to treat others with respect, and feel free to lecture people on how they ought to contribute at Wikipedia, as well as to speak with absolute athority on how articles ought to be written.Is there some reason for this?14:18, 17 October 2006 (UTC)AnneCr 14:19, 17 October 2006 (UTC) Why do I have to present new points by the way? Why don't you answer the old ones?AnneCr 14:20, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

It seems quite silly to ask for citations for basic statements of fact. Spencer announces from time to time that he is on radio or tv, and program listings at the time confirm it. Are you suggesting that he does not write articles, that his life as a public figure is a fantasy? How many publications and programmes must be cited here to back up his claim that "his work has appeared in a number of publications" ?AnneCr 03:46, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Argh! My last post disappeared... Anyway. The point is that WP policy, however cumbersome it may be, demands citations for more or less anything. Another point is that a biography - or any other part of a biographical article - should not list every single public statement from a person, be it newspaper article or radio appearance. Doing so makes the article look like a vanity article which the subject has written about himself to make him look "serious". Also, citing articles, biographies et cetera in heavily biased outlets is just plain silly. If you have a look at the Osama bin Laden article, they don't refer to his website for info on him. Heck, if I wanted an article about myself, it'd be much more beneficial - for me - to quote one of my website when describing myself than to quote others. It would, however, not necessarily, be entirely true. And that's what WP is all about, keeping the facts straight. You can't call someone an established academical researcher if 90% of his published material was pubished at frontpagemagazine.com - that would be akin, to use the Osama example, if Osama bin Laden's article described him as a "kind, respectful humanitarian bent on freeing the world from US hegemony", based on published material on ihatebushandamerica.com.--TVPR 05:58, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

87.63.35.213 (talk) 23:59, 7 March 2008 (UTC) Robert Spencer has commented on this page at <A href="http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/020205.php">JihadWatch</A>. He says: "Some time ago I called it "ridiculous," but it is worse than that: it is relentlessly biased, and the negative spin is thoroughgoing."

Basically, he disses this page as a smear. Then counters it, because smears need to be countered. But Wikipedia certainly falls flat on issues like this, tend to become a hate-fest for people trying to discredit others. Take the 'Controversial conference' section which is a weasel-worded smear with no substance. Rather than kick it out, I added a couple paragraphds with links to documentation proving the smear unfounded, thus repairing the damage it tried to do to Spencer and the European Islam-critics. Those paragraphs I added were not merely edited, they were summarily deleted.

Wikipedia doesn't work well when it comes to controversial subjects or persons. This page very much proves that point.

[edit] career as a researcher of Islam

While his biographies and the articles continue to say that he has been a "researcher" of Islam since the day he entered college as an undergrad, I have yet to see one reference to him publishing or saying one word about Islam prior to plus or minus a few years around 2000. He has a long publishing history but exclusively in Catholic publications on Catholic religious issues. It would be good if the article clearly stated when his first known publication on Islam was. 12.96.162.45 20:30, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, would it not be reasonably obvious from the date of the first published book? This seems a statement of the obvious.--AnneCr

Which basically proves the anon's point - nothing at all prior to ca. 2000. So you agree e's not a "long-time researcher" after all?--TVPR 06:40, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Even if one didn't release work prior to 2000, does not make the statement "long-time researcher" false. In fact, it makes it true.

Well, logically it does not prove that his research was long-term, but it in no way disproves it. And it is no long leap from an interest in Monophysism to Islam, as the Monophysite churches were crushed by the arab conquests.

Really, there is no disproving Spencer's statement unless one can find a realiable witness (or perhaps four witnesses) who has been at his side every moment since he entered college. AnneCr 20:53, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

The burden of proof is on you to back up your own claim (which is that Spencer is a "long-time researcher."--Kitrus 08:00, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] toward a more accurate early biography

This is a long-form early biography of Spencer. I'm putting it here to provide some information for those who might be interested.

Spencer drifted between religions in college. He was initially an evangelical christian but due to a dispute in the student group he belonged to over the charismatic gifts, he rejected it. Having sought the opinion of an episcopal priest on the charismatic gifts, he was convinced to join to that church.

What is your source on this? Since you have decided to doubt everything Spencer says about himself, I am sure it is not his published writings? --AnneCr
- The point is that as encyclopedians, it's in everybody's best interrest to always doubt everything anyone ever says about themselves. --TVPR

That means that all of this early bio which is only known from Spencer's own writings is worthless.AnneCr 13:28, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

My source on this is Spencer himself writing in the Catholic Magazine "The Rock". He often wrote about himself in his early articles. I can provide you exact citations if necessary. 12.96.162.45 17:59, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes, but apparently anything Spencer says about himself is unacceptable; "The point is that as encyclopedians, it's in everybody's best interrest to always doubt everything anyone ever says about themselves. --TVPR."

He then rejected that Church's beliefs and converted to Roman Catholicism. His masters thesis is about the theological issues on which he rejected the Episcopal church. In short summary, he became an Episcopal because he like its sense of authority based on tradition/ortodoxy as compared to the Evangelicals. He rejected the Episcopal church because its appeal to tradition was in contradiction with its rejection of the greater authority of Roman Catholicism.

This is all very interesting, but other than showing a broad interest in religion is it relevant to anything? --AnneCr
- I thought we were supposed to be writing a biography here... Meaning we include tidbits like these, which are enlightening to get some insight into the man's personality. --TVPR

Spencer is a "researcher" in religion. In the interests of a full biography, its very relivant to deal with his entire life rather than try to erase everything in his life before 2002. 12.96.162.45 17:59, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

There is no evidence that he had any interest in Islam in college or actually long after.

Well, he says so, and he has written several books bout Islam. You are implying that he is a liar, and that a person could go from having no interest in Islam to writing a book about it. --AnneCr
- Him saying so is completely irrelevant.

Actually that's nonsense. "When did you become interested in X; How did you become interested in Y?" are perfectly reasonable questions to put to a subject.

Also, anyone with an agenda could go from having no interrest in something to writing a book about it. I'm not particularly into nuclear weapons, but if I wanted to write a book deriding the US, I'd propably learn quite a lot about it to use as an argument. --TVPR

"if" "probably" "with an agenda"-AnneCr 12:33, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm not suggesting to put something like this on the page (thats why its here). But is a VERY valid question for Spencer. I can't find one word he wrote about Islam prior to 2001. The school he went to wasn't exactly noted for its program in mideast studies. His thesis wasn't on Islam but his thesis was consistent with his next ten years of publishings (not on Islam). 12.96.162.45 17:59, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Though he claims he thought about entering a PHD program in mideast studies when he got his MA, that seems rather unlikely.

Again, you are just calling him a liar. And actually, the quote was concerning all PhD programs as well. In fact let's go to the quote, "Spencer has criticized academics at his web site writing that he opted not to enter any PhD program because he "could see [in 1986] that Middle East Studies and other departments were becoming highly politicized and retreating from genuine academic work"--AnneCr
- Yes, this is speculative - but may well be correct. It doesen't belong in the article, but my point here is that his own word is worth jack shit in an article about him. --TVPR

No it isn't, especially when attributed to him, and not stated as factAnneCr 12:33, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm allowed to be speculative on the discussion page. I'm not suggesting this be put in the article. If you choose to believe a man who pursued an MA in religious studies with a thesis on Catholicism had the ability to simply jump into a PHD program in mideast studies, I can't help you. 12.96.162.45 17:59, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

He lived in the Bronx in New York after college for some period of time. He wrote freelance articles for a variety of Catholic publications in the 1990s. He wrote articles defending papal infallibility, that Catholic Dogma was the church's reason for living, that the unity of the first millinium christian church was a naive myth and that the split between the Roman Catholic and Orthodox churches had "borne good fruit by God's grace".

Again, do you have some source here? And what is the point? (To be homest, I don't even know what his means. "Native Myth?" )--AnneCr
- The point is still that an article, a biographical such, should include info on his life, not just "this is what Bob Spencer thinks about Islam: it's terrible!!!". That's what biographies are all about. --TVPR

No, it should include relevant infoAnneCr 12:33, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

The sources are Spencer's own writings in Catholic publications during the 1990s. Native has been corrected to "naive". Spencer has set himself up as an authority on religion and the role of religion in history. As such, his writings on Christian issues are very relivant. That he considers Catholicism as a the only valid form of Christianity is very important actually.

1)What does "'the split between the Roman Catholic and Orthodox churches had "borne good fruit by God's grace' " mean? 2)don't most adherents of a religion believe that they are right? He has said he is a Catholic, therefore of course he thinks Catholicism true 3)"only valid form" is a little strong and is at odds with the Catholic Church, see here [1]. do you have a quote from SpencerAnneCr 00:05, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Around 2001, he got involved with Daniel Ali, a muslim convert to Christianity. Spencer joined Ali's Christian-Islamic Forum which was a group dedicated to converting muslims to christianity based on Islamic scriptures and knowledge of Islam.

That is not true, as has been previously discussed, and then conveniently archived. Ali wrote an article about his own reaction to Sept. 11 and the way to convert Muslims; his group according to Ali and the sources archived above, was fromed prior to 9/11. Direct quote from source "Before Father Most died, in January of l999, he and I discussed forming a forum in which Christians and Muslims could dialogue." [2]--AnneCr
- I'm not giving either of you right in this one, but Anne, most of the sources you're listing are very heavily biased, either due to agreeing with Spencer on everything or due to him and the people in question operating them. --TVPR

Actually, i am citing the source that was used above by anonAnneCr 13:23, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Does Ali mention Spencer in this00:05, 24 October 2006 (UTC)~

Every word written is consistant with what has been archived. Daniel Ali (in that article) says in 1995:"I began immediately to tell my Muslim friends why I had converted, and made great efforts to evangelize them.". Your suggestion that Daniel Ali intended to dialog with Muslims about issues not related to conversion is not consistent with what he has written. Further, Daniel Ali makes it clear that Christian-Islamic Forum which Spencer was a member of was dedicated to evangilizing muslims. If that dedication happened before or after 9/11 does not matter, Spencer was a member and that was the organizations goal.12.96.162.45 17:59, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

You cannot conflate an individual and the organization he founded. You are exchanging an exact quote about the forum for your impression based on Ali's statements.AnneCr 23:52, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

What I have done is to show that Daniel Ali was a muslim convert to Christianity who say evangelizing muslims as something he was willing to devote a "great effort" to in 1995. It is then shown that the Christian Islamic forum was dedicated to the conversion of Muslims to Christianity using islamic works at the time of its first meeting. What you have shown is an ambiguity about what the purpose of the forum was between January 1999 and the time of the first meeting of the forum. As I have already said, Spencer was a board member of the organization *after* it became dedicated (according to Ali) to conversion. So (again) if that dedication happened before or after 9/11 does not matter, Spencer was a member and that was the organizations goal. 12.96.162.45 17:27, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Again, it was not the organizations goal. It was Ali's personal goal. They two cannot be considered identical.AnneCr 20:00, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

He also did a couple freelance pieces for National Review. Those relationships led to his first and second books.

Now I am really curious. How do you know this? Or are you just assuming?--AnneCr

- Not having looked into this, I'm guessing National Review was behind publising said books. Him getting a "foot in the door", so to speak, would then be critical to getting something published. --TVPR

Okay, so now are you saying Spencer's statements attributed to him (not presented as fact but as his statements) are worthless but these guesses are just fine?

They also mark the point at which he became a "researcher" on Islam.

Unless of course, he is telling the truth about his early interest in Islam, which would not at all be out of character for someone who was (as you said in the first paragraph) "drifting through religions."--AnneCr
- I wouldn't call "Oh, should I be a powertripping christian, a free-form christian or some other kind of christian" drifting between religions - rather drifting between directions. As much as you might like to think so, evangelists and episcopals are just as Christian as protestants and catholics. And, once again, his word is irrelevant. Your point that him telling the truth about early interest in Islam falls on its own back, since it would be in his best interrest to make the world think he was into the religion since he left kindergarten. It's all about him trying to get himself some credibility, and by listening to him, you're only helping. That's not building a reliable biography. --TVPR

Nonsense, the primary evidence of his interest in Islam is his writings, I don't care whether he learned about it first in college or on Sept 12, 2001. I just question your question everything mentality.AnneCr 12:33, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Through his freelancing at National Review, he was able to get one of the editors to write the forward for his first book.

How do you know this, or are you just guessing?--AnneCr
- It's called logic. What, you think he could have gotten an editor to write his foreword if he had no idea who he was? --TVPR

It is far from logical. It is the error known as Post Hoc, Ergo Propter, i.e. after the fact therefore because of the fact.AnneCr 12:33, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

His timing was excellent in that he was well-positioned after 9/11. He was hired into the Free Congress Foundation as an "adjunct fellow" and wrote a bunch of website-filler stuff for them.

"Web site filler stuff"? I believe the word you are looking for is "articles"--AnneCr
- Agreed, we can't say "website-filler" in the article. That's what it is, though. --TVPR

That's what what is?.AnneCr 12:33, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

There is no information to be found so far on what he did before the Free Congress Foundation. [[User: |12.96.162.45]] 20:51, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

And even less is known about Mr-or-Ms 12.96.162.45AnneCr 03:13, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm not playing that game. 12.96.162.45 17:59, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

- Now you're making personal attacks, again violating policy.

Unlike just "blatantly calling {me} a sock puppet. AnneCr 12:33, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

I didn't call you a sock puppet. Please stop making insunations about me and take your problems with other people to a different heading. 12.96.162.45 18:32, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

If the anon can provide sources for this, I'd be overjoyed to include most of it in the article. Also, he/she - unlike certain others - does things the right way, by discussing this type of long, heavy changes in the talk page before putting them in the article. The alternative would be to just post it directly into the article, with an ensuing edit war leaving us with bits, pieces, and a rotten article.--TVPR 06:38, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm going to take the comments and start on version 2. I'll add citations as suggested. 12.96.162.45 17:59, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

In the interest of pursuing accurate truth, I'd like to put it forth that Robert Spencer might either have grown up in or is now a member of the Melkite Catholic Church, which is only affiliated with rather than a part of the Roman Catholic Church. Unfortuneately, I only read this in an unreferenced posting by a member of the FaithFreedom.org website. Perhaps someone else might look into this question and confirm it from a reliable secondary source? ~Anonymous 4:40 AM ET 22 October, 2006

Watch his recent c-span interview which is linked at the bottom of the article. There you shall find the details you seek.--CltFn 00:55, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

There is also this: [3] The interesting bit is:

"Well as you may know I am a Melkite Catholic and my family is from the Islamic world. I remember being intrigued by the Koran and while in college several Muslim students knew of my background and ask me to read the Koran. I was happy to and spent a great deal of time reading the Koran and asking questions. I think my Muslim friends thought because of my interest that they could convert me but I was quite happy in my faith."

For Clarification:

- I dont know of any evidence that he grew up in the Melkite Catholic Church. He could possibly have been Eastern Orthodox in one form or another as a child. If he was Orthodox, it explains his obsession with Monophysitism in his early writings. It creates another mystery in that if he was Orthodox or grew up Orthodox, why didn't he mention that in his writings?

"obsession"? I think this is going the way of tabloid journalism. I just don't see the mystery here. He answered the question about his his religious affiliation in the interview you posted. He answers questions about his religion at his web site. You are saying he "could possibly have been" Eastern Orthodox, and then find it mysterious that he never mentioned it,

even thought that is nothing but your guessAnneCr 23:49, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

I would again ask you to try and engage in a civil discussion. I use the word obsession because few people today are even aware of a centuries-old christian dispute over Monophysitism. Robert Spencer has written multiple articles about it and it is the subject of his Masters Thiesis. His writings also strongly suggest it played a key role in his conversion from an Episcopalian to a Catholic. I would personally describe that amount of work on such an obsecure topic as an obsession. As far as the rest, I will remind you once again that the purpose of a discussion is to "discuss". People are allowed to make deductions, question sources, engage in speculation and talk about the subject of the article. If you have a different understanding of what discussion is, please explain what you think that is. 12.96.162.45 17:27, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

- I'm not quite sure which college year he was "intrigued" by the Koran. He was part of a campus Evangelical movement for at least a year (if not longer). He also claims to have spent a year as a "full-time social ministries intern" in the Episcopal Church before his conversion to Roman Catholicism. And which of his three "faiths" was he quite happy with? (Orthodox, Evangelical, Catholic).

Christianity is the religion; I think you are making too much of denominational differences. More to the point, you seem to be selectively willing to let Spencer be a source. Do you have some third party evidence of the campus Evangelical movement, or are you just accepting Spencer's word? Why does do you use the word "claim" about his being a "full-time social ministries intern", but not for other parts of his bio?AnneCr 23:49, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

The use of "claim" in discussion is a form of attribution. Since this is an open discussion, I am free to use any particular wording I choose. I am also free to both use Spencer as a source and to question the validity of any statement made by any source. That is one of the many purposes of a discussion page. And again, the religious history of a writer whose MA is in religion and who writes books on religion is very relivant to discuss. 12.96.162.45 17:27, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

- He then converted to Roman Catholicism.

when?AnneCr 23:49, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Spencer has not provided dates. He wrote of his conversion in his work for Catholic publications. By the other facts he has provided, it can be deduced that it had to be between two years of his starting college and whenever he began writing his Masters Thesis. The subject of his masters thesis is directly related to his conversion. He has claimed to have spent a year in an evagelical group and at least a year in the Episcopal Church. 12.96.162.45 17:27, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't know how he can claim to be otherwise while having writing "Since this case seemed to be the best one the anti-infallibilists could turn to, I became an infallibilist, a Catholic with faith in the pope as the Vicar of Christ and successor of St. Peter." and "When compared with the other great ancient see of the Church, the patriarchate of Constantinople, the papacy possessed monumental purity. Among the patriarchs of Constantinople were the arch-heretic Nestorius, a collection of grubby Iconoclasts and fellow travelers, and even a Calvinist, Cyril Loukaris!". Its difficult to comprehend a "Melkite" who says things like that. 12.96.162.45 17:44, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

I cannot imagine why a Melkite would not. Are you unaware that Melkites are Catholics?AnneCr 23:49, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

In brief, the Melkite Catholic Church is in full communion with the Roman Catholic Church but it not the same thing as the Roman Catholic Church. Full communion between the churches indicates that all critical elements of the Christian faith from the Catholic point of view are common to the churches, but differences in other areas may still exist. There are on the order of 20 churches in this situation. There is a further complex matter of doctrine in that Catholic Church holds itself to be the *only* christian church and therefore does not recognize entities in full or partial communion as seperate (including the Melkite Catholic Church). But apart from a dogmatic point of view, it is a seperate entity. Historically, the differences have involved using Eastern rites in services (as opposed to Latin ones), issues with regard to baptism and married priests. 12.96.162.45 16:54, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

The Melkite Church is a separate entity within the larger entity known as "The Catholic Chuch." Eastern Rite bishops are approved by the Pope, (here [4] is a Vatican press release appointing a Melkite Bishop). and Eastern Rite bishops are members of the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops. [5]. Just search the list in the preceding link for the word Eparchy and you will find all the Eastern Rite bishops. Some Eastern Rite bishops are also Cardinals and therefore help elect the Pope. Eastern Rite bishop Lubomyr Husar was considered papabile, though certainly a long shot. (Obviously, he was not elected). Roman Catholics can fulfill. their Sunday obligation by attending an Eastern Rite Liturgy. [6] They share the same dogma, but have different practices and disciplines such as the matter of Clerical_celibacy. AnneCr 20:00, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Do Articles Belong in a Bibliography?

Here is the list. Also partially answers the "cite needed" question above:AnneCr 04:07, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm altering your list in favor of keeping the discussion page shorter. You lifted everything

from [[7]] which may be under copyright except the material you removed from the article:

Holy Wreck: Catholics Battle Over Architecture
National Review Online, August 25, 2002

My Favorite Marcion
This Rock, December 1997

Knowing the Gnostics
This Rock, January 1996

The Truth about Pope Honorius
This Rock, September 1994

I think these four deserve to be in the article. My reasoning is that Mr. Spencer (for whatever reason) does not list his early work in his own lists of publications. As a compromise, I'm willing to have the four articles listed plus a link to his official list of publications at Jihadwatch. Is that acceptable to you? 12.96.162.45 18:18, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

No. That would give a decidedly false impression, the 4 articles listed on Wikipedia would be more prominent. although he seems to have written a handful of early articles and become a regular columnist around 2002, The articles issue is handled in the bio as it stands now which mentions some Catholic articles early on, regular columnist at Frontpage Magazine, Human Events more recently, some in other papers. No articles were listed previously. Does every columnist get a listing of columns in Wikipedia? It seems absurd.AnneCr 19:21, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

These are not columns. They represent his written work on various topics before 2002. It is hardly unknown on Wikipedia for selected publications to be presented from periodicals or journals. While it would be unusual to list every column written by a columnist, I will point out you that you are the only one making that suggestion.

Again, in an attempt to compromise I would hope that you would be willing to accept the listing of some number of selected article (not regular columns) to create a balance and to eliminate what you consider a false impression being given. 12.96.162.45 20:34, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

I have not seen the articles, so I really don't know how they differ from a Front Page article. What do you want to include and why? AnneCr 23:54, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

That's just scary, I thought the guy was some sort of male Ann Coulter Light, but seems he's almost just as raving mad. Any old how, I'd re-sort that list if I were you. Half of the articles are listed under wrong publication. Now, another thing; from every single one of those publications, the only ones I found not to be bleeding obvious in their bias were the Dallas Morning News, the National Post, and the New York Post - of which I counted 1 occurance of each. The remainder of the articles are from heavily biased conservative publishings or plain old religious nutjobs. None of this - none, whatsoever - proves him to be anything close to a researcher. If anything it paints him as a zealot obsessed with "The ever-present danger of murder-religion Islam".--TVPR 07:08, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

He isn't an Ann Coulter. He isn't even the worst of the writers in this area (see Bat Ye'or for a real raving mad case). I think the worst thing he has done so far is his attempt to historically rehabilitate the crusades as a good thing. His association with Frontpage and David Horowitz has actually hurt any mainstream acceptance he had. All he seems to be able to do these days is endlessly repeat the same things he said four years ago. 12.96.162.45 18:30, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

"Not even the worst of the writers in this area." Wow. It is kind of astonishing that you and the TVPR person both feel so free to flaunt you biases in the discussion and then think that you are going to be able to write something NPOV.AnneCr 19:26, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

"Scary"? Well, Happy Halloween. Meanwhile, I have given you the info I have. If you have better info about the articles, fix them. I don't see what you are talking about when you say "wrong publication."

Earlier we have settled "Robert Bruce Spencer is an American writer focusing on Islam" omitting the word "researcher."

This list was an effort to answer are the question about publishing which had been tagged as "citation needed"

You are quite welcome to your opinion of Right Wing publications, but your opinion that such opinions are "scary" seems a bit parochial.

And while you have questioned my right to contribute to this article based on my interest in it an it alone, you seem oblivious to the fact that others might view your biases (as revealed in your comments in this and other articles such as on "Christian Terrorists") as problematic.AnneCr 15:11, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

I never questioned your right to edit the article, I used said argument as indices that you might have been a sockpuppet, for which I now apologize. In any case, my opinion on right-wingers is not of relevance, the fact that his publications more or less exclusively have made it into outlets that make no attempt to hide their bias is. I'm trying to push forward facts, and facts from a neutral POV - including not attributing virtues to a biased writer like Bob Spencer which he does not posess. If he wants to portray himself as a serious, knowledgeable researcher on Islam, that's swell, but a WP article on him should not serve as a tool to push him closer to this goal. It should contain a biographical summary of his life and actions, and dated entries for when and how he started writing on Islam. It should summarize his views, and what bias those who publish them, have - not push these as facts on the reader.--TVPR 15:57, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

I have no idea what standard you are using to determine who is a "researcher"; I am perfecty happy with "writer". I question your bias that a "serious, knowledgeable researcher on Islam" cannot write in right wing publications.AnneCr 18:00, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] starting the clock on consulting statements

I cannot find any source to validate that Robert Spencer has consulted with:

1) US Central Command 2) The US State Department 3) The German Foreign Ministry

If anyone is working to validate these claims, speak up now. I intend to remove the statements after a reasonable interval unless someone provides something to support these statements or other reasoning why this material should stay in the article. 12.96.162.45 20:24, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

This information is on Spencer's website. Your presumption that he is an untrustworthy source reveals your biases, and is absurd.

So if I said, "I am Jesus Christ", you would put that up in the entry on me in wikipedia, simply because I said it? Because to do otherwise would presume that I am an "untrustworthy source"? Does critical thinking have any role in this?Geminifile 05:34, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

These were not public meetings, but he wrote about them at Jihad Watch at the time they happened. Other people were in attendance. Instead of assuming he is dishonest, why don't you ask him for some verification, or provide some reason why you find his information about these consultations untrustworthy? He is quite specific about the State Department/German Foreign Ministry workshop here: http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/012304.php. Why don't you contact the German Foreign Ministry in Berlin and ask them if such a workshop took place, and if he was there? Likewise he writes that he gave a workshop to a U.S. Central Command group in Tampa, FL on May 23, 2006: http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/011546.php. Why not contact them and ask, or contact Spencer? Your assumptions here reveal a bias so unyielding that any pretensions you have to objectivity have been thoroughly eviscerated.AnneCr 23:41, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Your behavior is unacceptable. The statements:

"Your presumption that he is an untrustworthy source reveals your biases, and is absurd.",

"Your assumptions here reveal a bias so unyielding that any pretensions you have to objectivity have been thoroughly eviscerated."

are personal attacks. This is the second time you have made a personal attack on me.

Your statement:

"provide some reason why you find his information about these consultations untrustworthy"

is a misrepresentation. There are (or were) open citation requests in the article on these matters. I offered no judgement about the trustworthyness of any particular material in this regard. Please review policy and cease the personal attacks. 12.96.162.45

I have reviewed the policy and do not consider this a personal attack. Thanks so much for your helpul advice, but I believe you to be mistaken. I am questioning the NPOV of what you write given that you have repeatedly said (see above) that you doubt what Spencer says in his own bio about his interest in Islam, his own religion and various factors.AnneCr 01:52, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

<chuckle> Arrow740 07:02, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

I suggest you review good faith, Civility and remember "Wikipedians engaging in debate is an essential part of the culture of Wikipedia". It is perfectly acceptable on any biography page to question any biography or biographical detail. The reason I have gone to great lengths to discuss issues here is to avoid POV disputes. 12.96.162.45

[edit] Is Spencer's public bio a reliable source about his own life?

TVPR/Anon3190 added "cite needed" tags to a number of facts that another contributor had put in. The original included references to Spencer's web site. I consider it to be a legitimate source until proven otherwise. AnneCr 01:52, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Nobody has ever suggested otherwise. Please review what "cite needed" tags mean. In short they mean that if someone knows of valid sources to back the statement made in the article, that they add a reference to that source as a citation in the article. However, it is perfectly acceptable to raise questions about the accuracy of Spencer's public bio in this discussion page.12.96.162.45

Actually, if you read the above discussion TVPR/Anon3190 did not only suggest otherwise, he said so.AnneCr 02:31, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Al Qaeda

Al qaeda is not cited as a critic but in a section marked Views on Spencer's works. They are far more prominent that the other sources mentioned.

The phrase is "If the Zionist Crusader missionaries of hate and counter-Islam consultants..." found here:[8]

The problem is that mentioning it as a "critic" is politically inflamitory and ends up smearing his other serious critics. His dispute with Al Qaeda can be mentioned in the article, but putting it in the list of critics fails NPOV. Further, [9] already has an entire section devoted to in the article. (see invitation to islam). Since its already covered, why does it need to be double-covered in the critics list.

It does not violate NPOV. They criticize him. Arrow740 09:01, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

The Al Qaeda criticism should be seperated from the list of other critics. It tarnishes the name of the other critics and makes it seem as if they have the same overall viewpoint. Clearly violates NPOV. Nokhodi 04:52, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

"It tarnishes the name of the other critics." That is your point of view. A Qutbi would not take that view. It is wikipedia's place to judge that Al Qaeda negatively? It enjoys the support of millions of Muslims. Arrow740 05:06, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

"It enjoys the support of millions of Muslims". That is your point of view. Nokhodi 04:37, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

What? It's a fact. Read this [10]. Arrow740 05:47, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

"It enjoys the support of millions of Muslims". For perspective, it does not enjoy the support of over a billion Muslims.Geminifile 05:38, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV

As any student of certain monotheistic religions knows, there are sins of ommission and sins of commission. This article errs in the former, because althought it has a long section on Spencer's reactions to his critics, it has almost nothing to say about the critiques themselves. Until this problem is corrected, this article cannot claim to be in compliance with WP:NPOV. --Zantastik talk 03:29, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't see as how the reactions of the subject of an article to criticism have a place in a biographical page in the first place. Response to criticism from the subject is by its very nature POV and inappropriate. The article needs to be encyclopedic rather than serve as a forum for debate between spencer, his supporters and his critics. If the criticism is to be expanded, it has to be expanded in an NPOV way and avoid any kind of back-and-forth arguement between "sides". 12.96.162.45 16:31, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Without any discussion, others have restored the section which means that Zantastik's NPOV issue is relivant again. The section (rather than the article) is now marked NPOV. In my opinion, to clear the NPOV tag the choices are either

Remove the "response to critics" section
Add a new paragraph of material detailing what the criticisms he is responding to are.

12.96.162.45 15:50, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Sigh. The irony in all of this is that the article was much shorter -- a "just the facts" version representing an earlier consensus -- up until a few months ago, when one user in particular (who made little or no attempt at concealing his anti-Spencer agenda) forced the issue of a "Criticism" section. Before that, obviously there was no NPOV issue like the one we're dealing with now. One of the main objections to the a criticism/response section was that it would result in another interminable bout of wrangling over its content and balance.

And here we are. Dy-no-miite 19:25, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

I would be happy with the short criticism section as it exists now minus the "spencer responds to critics" sub-section. I don't think the sub-section is necessary given the "just the facts" version and I think re-expanding the criticism section would be a total disaster. I wish the people who *want* that sub-section to stay so badly could explain why and how they plan to fix the NPOV issue that its created. 12.96.162.45 19:49, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Actually, if we're going to have a "criticism" section, following to the resolution of the late-August/early September debate, I see the "response to critics" section as providing balance. Otherwise, the article is skewed decidedly "anti-Spencer": Suppose you had never heard of someone, and looked them up in an encyclopedia to find just a biographical entry, and a battery of criticisms. You'd think, "Wow, this guy must be awful," as the unanswered criticisms would serve to discredit the subject of the article and make the encyclopedia a platform for character assassination. Dy-no-miite 21:09, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

What we have right now is a more or less equal number of external views of Spencer on both sides under "Views on Spencer's works" with little else said. I think that serves in place of a criticism section discussed months ago. In the article's current form there is no battery of criticism. If explicit criticims were to be added back in (a bad idea IMO), that would create a reason for the response subsection to be there. But right now thats not the case. 12.96.162.45 21:45, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

I still think the "negative views" present charges that should be answered. I also think following up the section with Spencer's own words is a more neutral ending than letting either those who approve or disapprove of his work have the "last word" in the section. Ending with Spencer's own words invites the reader to form his/her own opinion rather than leaving who is "right" up future disputes among users. And a quotation from the person who is the subject of the article is a useful thing to have in a biographical entry. Dy-no-miite 04:03, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] new POV problems

The newly added section of "positive" views of Spencer's work is POV and unacceptable. It appears to be almost exclusively a collection of promotional statements mostly from a single book (the one on the crusades). The leading text: "Reviews of Spencer's bestselling book include these remarks:" suggests that it may have even been wholesale lifted from somewhere. There may or may not be copyright problems as well as POV problems.

The quotations used are essentially political material rather than actual reviews of spencers work. Examples:

"Robert Spencer assails, with much erudition, the taboos imposed by the Politically Correct League"

"The jihad that the Western world faces today is identical in its motivations and goals to that which Europe managed to stave off almost a thousand years ago thanks in large part to the Crusades of which the West is now ashamed."

"Today's jihad, as Spencer illustrates here, is proceeding on two fronts: one of violence and terror, and another of cultural shaming and the rewriting of history."

"he warns against the spirit of masochistic self-loathing that permeates the Western elite class."

The positive section needs to confine itself specifically to opinions on Spencer's work. That means for starters no political cheap shots and political opinions that are not Spencers opinions. The Ba Ye'or text buried toward the end is a example of somewhat acceptable material. 12.96.162.45 20:18, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Putting in "Al Qaeda" as an "organization which opposes Spencer's works" is almost funny. It makes the article spin like a child's toy. You might as well put "The whole of Islam" as a group which opposes Spencer's works.

71.195.114.237 20:20, 7 December 2006 (UTC)== list of POV issues in spencer's response to critics ==

"One example: after I spoke at the University of North Carolina, Professor Carl Ernst of the university wrote a piece about me warning that my books were non-scholarly and were published by presses that he believed reflected a political agenda of which he did not approve."

This requires a citation to the exact "piece" that Spencer is talking about. Spencer's interpretation needs to be checked against the original work for POV.

"That kind of approach may impress some people, but Carl Ernst did not and cannot bring forth even a single example of a supposed inaccuracy in my work."

This is entirely subjective POV. Spencer is making subjective conclusions about the work of another person. That is not encyclopedic.

Spencer has criticized academics at his web site writing that he opted not to enter any PhD program because he "could see [in 1986] that Middle East Studies and other departments were becoming highly politicized and retreating from genuine academic work"

This is unacceptable in a response to criticism section in that it is a criticism by Spencer of Middle East Studies programs. There is no response to criticism in this statement.

"and that is why I oppose the global jihad. And I think that those who make the charge know better in any case: they use the charge as a tool to frighten the credulous and politically correct away from the truth"

This porition of the statement is not a response to criticism. It is a political statement and an accusation presented without proof. Spencer here is accusing his critics of being liars with conspiratorial motivations.

I think in general it would be best to move away from many of the direct Spencer quotes and to have his arguements agianst his critics summarized in a encyclopedic way that also removes the attacks on specific critics. 12.96.162.45 20:32, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

This is the first time I've ever contributed to wikipedia, so I'm not sure if my form is kosher, but the links to Carl Ernst's considered response to the substance of Spencer's claims don't work. The reader is left with a very lopsided view of Spencer, skewed positively, while there are evidently serious questions being raised about 1) his use of the primary sources; 2) his use of the secondary sources; and 3) his political agenda (e.g. "the politically incorrect guide to..."). When professional scholars such as Carl Ernst use words like "Islamophobe", the reader would like to know why. The article as it stands has a bunch of positive comments (and section for Spencer's response to his critics), and this is counterbalanced by some broad criticisms which border on ad hominem ("he has selection bias"), and one link of evident substance criticizing him (and that link doesn't work). If his critics claim that he has selection bias, the reader deserves to know *why*. It's a problem. A suggestion would be to move Juan Cole's open letter to Spencer up from the footnotes, and to give it equal space with the positive comments. There is plenty of substantive material to choose from in Cole's response, for example his point that SPencer uses legal compendiums from the fourteenth century to illustrate what Islam in its essence actually is. This is a very serious charge against spencer and his methodology (and obliquely his competence), and ought to be factored in (and not buried away in the footnotes) if the article is to show anything like balance. Geminifile 20:31, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

While I agree with what you are saying, the article reached its current form because attempts to do what you want turned the article into a debate between supporters and critics. The pro-spencer element will not only refuse to accept what you are suggesting, they will demand that Spencers answers to every criticism be included as well. The current half-compromise is that there are links as references which give the actual views of the critics while other details are minimized in the article. Its not an ideal situation, but anything else is likely to lead to months or years of useless back-and-forth arguments/edits. 152.163.100.14 19:58, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Yea, in a way this is ground-zero for how the west is to understand (or not understand) Islam. So there's going to be a lot of emotional charges on both sides. I think you have to do the thing with a balance of structure. If you give five favorable quotes, give five specific criticisms. A "Response to his Critics" section simply has to be balanced by specific examples of those criticisms. In my view, it's a really important article, because Spencer has put himself on the front line of the neocon construction of Islam, and it's important to know what his arguments are, and equally important to know why scholars of Islam (many of whom are Muslims themselves) invariably think Spencer is a quack. I'd balance it out, five quotes pro, five quotes against. Spencer claims that Islam is *inherently* violent (as opposed to Christianity and to a lesser extent Judaism), which are not. It's a very important topic, which deserves a balanced discussion. The pro-Spencer side needs to be heard, in exactly 50% of the article. But I'm new to Wikipedia's vetting process, so I guess just consider this as comments from an interested/concerned observer.71.195.114.237 20:37, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

What is this "neocon construction of Islam?" You claim that "scholars of Islam invariably think Spencer is a quack." So you've polled them all and a majority of them think he's a quack? Your request for an equal number of anti-Spencer sentences will be hard to fill, because no one actually references his work when criticizing him. Arrow740 22:17, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

The links to the neocons may be seen through David Horowitz, among others. As regards the claim that professional, peer-reviewed scholars generally ignore Spencer's work, or think him an outright quack (the link to Carl Ernst's article doesn't work, but see e.g. the comments by Khaleel Muhammad ((viz, "[spencer] manifests an unforgivable ignorance of the study of religion concerning law and interpretation")), or comments by Juan Cole, or others). There are substantive reasons why Spencer's work may be questioned, and readers should be allowed to decide for themselves their own opinions. I find it fascinating that someone has removed Juan Cole's open letter to spencer...while some claim the great virtue of western democracy and christian values are the openness of ideas and the free flow of information and tolerance for divergent viewpoints, (as opposed to the muslim model of repression, violence and intolerance), they advance the point by removing and supressing those who call it into question? Let's play "spot the irony"...

Answer my question. What is the "neocon construction of Islam." You have found two scholars who agree with you. This is not evidence that a majority of them agree with you. Even so, most tenured scholars of Islam are probably ninnies like Esposito, so their opinion is not evidence that he is a "quack." Why don't you read one of Spencer's books so that you can discuss his work intelligently? Arrow740 08:53, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Arrow, I have read Spencer's works, & I have many friends who study Islam for a living. You may think Esposito and Karen Armstrong and the like are "ninnies", but you'll need to subsantiate *why* you think this is so, rather than just sling words around. As for the neocon connection, maybe it is tenuous, & I'd not push the point too far. I do think it is there, but this isn't the place to discuss the issue.

My wordslinging is easier to backup than yours. I'm sure you could back up mine for me, but I really have no idea what you're talking about with the neocon label. Arrow740 05:13, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Er, I don't want to rain on your parade, but "Juan Cole's open letter to spencer" was removed because it never mentioned Spencer, and thus has no place here. Khaleel Muhammad's statement is, like the others, unsupported by examples, and is therefore worthless as criticism. AnneCr

The Juan Cole letter I read linked from here mentioned Spencer extensively, so I guess we're talking about two different articles. So don't worry! You haven't rained on anything! Yay!

--I suggest you enroll in a reading course. The Open Reply to Robert Spencer was written by Mark LeVine, not Cole. It was posted at Cole's site. Spencer has a further reply. AnneCr

Muslims are afraid to read what Spencer writes, because he just quotes them from their own literature, and proves that Islam has certain unacceptable qualities. Arrow740 05:13, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

The primary charge against Spencer (from Carl Ernst, Khaleel Muhammad, and others), is not that he "quotes them from their own literature". That's child's play. The main critique is that he does not provide the social or historical contexts for those statements, nor any balanced survey of how Muslims themselves have understood the more problematic statements. It were as if one quoted Jesus saying "a man must hate his father and mother to be my disciple", and "in anger [Jesus] reached out his hand to heal [the lame man]", and then claimed that those two statements *defined* Christianity (throw in the entire book of Revelation, Paul's "wives submit to your husbands", etc, as well). And so Spencer's lack of academic training in the field turns out to matter after all...if the question concerns the scholarly integrity of his work. Throughout his books, he fails to sufficiently consider how Muslims themselves have understood the various passages...so that one is left with the impression that the true Islam is Islam-according-to-Spencer, and those practicing Muslims who might disagree are incorrect about their own tradition, while he is correct. For example, he all but ignores the vast amount of Islamic tradition which differentiates a "greater jihad" [=internal, against one's own ego and vices] from a "lesser jihad" [external, primarily in defense of the faith]. This is not a minor point. 71.195.114.237 06:24, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

he all but ignores the vast amount of Islamic tradition which differentiates a "greater jihad" [=internal, against one's own ego and vices] from a "lesser jihad" [external, primarily in defense of the faith] o rly?
You'll observe that Spencer often quotes what Muslims themselves have to say about topics within their faith, thus it is wrong to claim that the violent interpretation of Quranic verses/hadith is purely Spencer's. - KingRaptor 07:06, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

The articles you linked are anemic...they merely attempt to reinforce the point that Spencer's idea about the meaning of "jihad" is right, and the Islamic idea is wrong. In neither article is there a discussion of the concept of "inner jihad", which is a hadith saying that has had profound influence on Islamic thought and jurisprudence. Here again, Spencer is either ignorant or dishonest, or else lacks perspective.

First off; newer comments go towards the bottom, not the top. Now that that's out of the way, I'd like to point out that Spencer HAS mentioned the hadith in one ofthe articles I linked to (did you glance over it or something?), quoted as follows:
In Onward Muslim Soldiers I detail how prominent jihadist theorists such as Hassan Al-Banna (founder of the Muslim Brotherhood) and Abdullah Azzam (founder of Al-Qaeda) argue that the idea that the "greater jihad" is a spiritual struggle is based on a weak hadith, a false tradition of the Prophet Muhammad, and that jihad is legitimately and primarily only warfare against unbelievers. (Emphasis mine) - KingRaptor 09:05, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

This is the problem. Spencer has merely cited a few extremists who assert that it is a "weak hadith", without informing anyone that it's been a central and formative component of Sufi thehology for over a millenium. "Weak"? Hardly. It's these sorts of value judgments that help explain why a lot of people don't take him very seriously. Like I said, the articles are short and intellectually anemic...they don't give any perspective on the greater jihad/lesser jihad issue. All of which would be just fine if he was commenting on Islamic extremism. But he's not, he's making claims about the essential nature of Islam itself. Geminifile 20:28, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

I did some probing around, following the relevant citations on Jihad, and found exactly what I guessed I would find: not only is the hadith not from the canonical six hadiths, leaving its credibility questionable at best, the chains of transmission involved were deemed to be unreliable.[11] [12] If Muslims acknowledge or follow weak hadiths, that's their fault, not Spencer's or the extremists'. - KingRaptor 00:17, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, and he does give lots of social and historical context; in fact that's his main tool besides quoting the most authoritative Muslim scholars. We're still waiting for a criticism of something specific, indeed any valid criticism. Arrow740 10:41, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Robert Spencer wrote (The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam), "Islamic theology so devalues non-believers that there is no room in Islamic culture for any generosity toward their achievements". Are you claiming that Aristotle did not play a part in the development of Islamic theology? Or that the muslim theologians did not acknowledge their forebears, or what?

Robert, nobody is going to say that your citations aren't historical, or doubt their veracity. What they will do is point out that your interpretation of those citations hasn't been current amongst most Muslims, for most of history. Today, for example, more than a billion muslims did not commit any act of violence, or wage jihad, or rape people, or whatever. That's not because more than a billion muslims don't understand their own religion, it's because you don't. Your work lacks balance and general fairness, and that's why most scholars think you're a quack. Plus, the amount of time you spend monitoring your own wikipedia entry is kind of weird. Geminifile 06:03, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

If there was ever a talk page comment that needed a {{Fact}} tag, the claim that Spencer spends a lot of time monitoring his own Wikipedia entry would be one. Oh, and just because Muslims don't actively participate in jihad doesn't mean they don't support the goals (and often, the methods) involved. A support that's quite a lot more widespread than some people think, I might add. - KingRaptor 09:05, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

It's not clear who you're accusing of being Spencer, but if you think it's me, I'm flattered. Anyway though it would be impossible (depending on the "citations") for you to prove that Spencer's "interpretation of those citations hasn't been current amonst most Muslims, for most of history," it would be irrelevant. Most Hindus are likely unaware of the Brahman/Ishvara distinction, that doesn't prove it's not the "correct" interpretation of the Hindu literature. Arrow740 18:32, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

So we decide what correct Hinduism or Islam is, while they themselves don't understand their own religion rightly? 71.195.114.237 20:20, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Who are "we?" Arrow740 07:33, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm just saying that a consensus view isn't necessarily a coherent view. Arrow740 07:50, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] A strawman NPOV version of the "response to critics" section

I've come up with a proposal for a new version of his response to critics section. I'm trying to summarize Spencer's case in a neutral and encyclopedic way. No citations are presented this time but I will add them before putting anything into the article.

Responding to criticisms, Spencer has said that he does not present his work based on his academic credentials but rather on the basis of the direct evidence gathered from his personal study of Islam. With regard to charges of bigotry and hatred, he has said that those making the claim are engaging in displacement and projection. He has also said that his critics use charges of hatred and bigotry to frighten the credulous and the political correct away from his work.

152.163.100.14 19:22, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Here again, I just think it's important to actually cite his critics. Who charged him with bigotry and hatred? Is that his own construction of why they don't like him, or are there sources for the claim. If there are sources, can we read them? If not, why not? Regarding the charges that he does not understand Islam (or rather, that he projects an understanding of extremist Islam onto *all Muslims*), can we have specific examples and citations? It's the same point I made above...just hoping that the controversy is fairly presented.71.195.114.237 20:43, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Robert Spencer and Secular Humanism

I've noticed that one of Spencer's works (2005) is published by Prometheus Books. For those not familar with them, they are the publishing house for secular humanism and a leading publisher of anti-religious books of all kinds. Its a strange place for someone with Spencer's political views to publish through. 12.96.162.45 18:05, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Not sure what you're getting at there. Dy-no-miite 21:25, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

What he ofcourse is getting at, is that because in his esteemed opinion Robert Spencer is a raving christian with an agenda to convert muslims or some such nonsense, it does not make sense why he would release his works through an anti-religion outlet. It's a rather common tactic by his detractors, attack the person, not his work.

Indeed. They're probably afraid to read his work. Arrow740 07:06, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Critics

Does anyone know of someone who has critiqued Spencer's work, instead of just criticizing Spencer himself? If so, I would appreciate a response on my talk page. Arrow740 05:20, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

*crickets chirping*

*dogs barking* —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Geminifile (talk • contribs) 06:24, 7 December 2006 (UTC).

*tumbleweed blows across empty street.....* --GreekEmperor 21:49, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

*guinea pigs grazing on a lawn* - KingRaptor 03:01, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

lol--Boris Johnson VC 20:00, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

*Bat flies against a full moon partly obscured by a whisp of cloud.....* Prester John 05:07, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

*Cows mooing while the wind whistles over the bare metal dashboard of the 950hp NOS-rigged 1972 Pontiac Le Mans coupe during the "Stereo" qualifying test for "Getaway in Stockholm 4"....*--Mike18xx 03:28, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Is the tone of this discussion really necessary? There is plenty of criticism of Spencer, much of it mentioned above. You will also find a more nuanced view if you bother to look closely at the views expressed by some of his "supporters", such as Daniel Pipes. A cursory examination is reveals a number of diverging opinions.

Here is just one example: Spencer has consistently trumpeted the concept of taqiyya as being intrinsic to Islam, and his views are widely quoted across the web. In stark contrast, you might be shocked to learn that no less that Daniel Pipes argues that it is an essentially Shia' practice, and neither widespead, intrinsic, or essential. He also is consistent in claiming that he has never directly accused anyone of the practicing taqiyya.

As evidence, please read Pipes rebuttals, some of them rather lengthy, to posters to his site proclaiming the "truth" about taqiyya: [http://www.danielpipes.org/comments/22855

<"I do not agree with much in this posting. Three corrections are needed, in particular: 1. Taqiya is a Shi`i practice, not a Sunni one. 2. It concerns hiding one's Shi`i affiliation, pretending to be a Sunni. 3. It is done only under stress. Here, for example is a passage of mine from "The Alawi Capture of Power in Syria - article by Daniel Pipes," published in 1989, on the subject of one Shi`i group, the `Alawis (or Nusayris): [13]

Pipes has reiterated his views in others posts. < "Taqiyya is a Shi`i concept for self-preservation and is not an all-purpose justification of falsehood." [14]

"I don't think I have ever accused anyone of taqiya. It is a specific and technical term, applicable to religion, not politics; and to Shi`is, not Sunnis." [15]

The link he posted after the above comment is now dead, but it was linked to this site: [16]

Jemiljan 19:10, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

People attack Spencer himself because it's sooooooo obvious how shamelessly self-promoting he is and how gullible his fans are. His actual "work" in "exposing" the jihadists isn't really in question; the difference between people like Daniel Pipes and Spencer is the fact that Pipes isn't so full of himself. Pipes is at least scholarly; Spencer is more like Ann Coulter than anything else - he says what he says about Islam in a way deliberately designed to get attention. Spencer groupies are highly entertaining in their devotion to riding the man's nuts.

Anyway, John Derbyshire has written a fairly scathing review of Spencer's last book, "Religion of Peace?" Please see the link at http://pajamasmedia.com/2007/08/christianity_good_islam_bad.php. Spencer, who of course never stands down ANY challenge to his work, has responded, but his response largely ignores many of Derbyshire's more cogent points. Actually, I think Derbyshire has made the same mistake as Spencer's groupies and the jihadists by buying too much into the book in the first place. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.134.227.49 (talk) 16:04, August 25, 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Al-Qaeda

"Al-Qaeda have negative views of him also".

--This is beyond awful. What is this phraseology trying to convey, anyway? Slac speak up! 05:13, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Islamophobic?

I added this section, it contains some well sourced statements by Carl Ernst, coming directly from University of North Carolina. I think its very important to have an Islamic scholar's (such as Carl Ernst's who is a Christian) critical point of view. The statement is the only reference that Robert Spencer is not an Islamic scholar. Further more the article is still start class, so it needs lot more information than what it has now. So if you are removing anything please discuss here and give a valid justification. ŇëŧΜǒńğëŗ^Talk 06:11, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

It's as I said. You obviously have not read the article you are editing. The "views" section already contains this sentence: "Khaleel Mohammed, Louay M. Safi and Carl Ernst assert that Spencer's scholarship and interpretations of Islam are fundamentally flawed - that he supports preconceived notions through selection bias - that he lacks genuine understanding and; that 'he has no academic training in Islamic studies whatsoever; his M.A. degree was in the field of early Christianity" as you should know. Arrow740 06:24, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Well calling him Islamophobic is not mentioned anywhere right? Since you already reverted my edits without letting me explain anything, I don't see that you are really interested in my point of view. Though I can revert back your edit I will not do so for the moment as I try to adhere to WP:1RR. Please let others present their view before removing things from an article, I know that wikipedia is not a democracy but it doesn't stop us from being nice to each other does it? :o) ŇëŧΜǒńğëŗ^Talk 13:39, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

I don't care if you say "Carl Ernst calls him an Islamophobe" if you can provide the very sentence here. Spencer is possibly proud of the label. Arrow740 16:24, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

I cant comment on behalf of Spencer :o), whether he is proud of the label or not doesn't concern me, whether you care or don't care also doesn't concern anyone of us at wikipedia :o) ; the fact remains that he is called an Islamophobe by some of the scholars and there is evidence for it and should go in the article. ŇëŧΜǒńğëŗ^Talk 06:47, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Hey you know what... I dont think Spencer would like it.. check this out ŇëŧΜǒńğëŗ^Talk 07:26, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

You're right.

And for my part I vehemently reject the "Islamophobe" label, which is only a tool used by Islamic apologists to silence criticism. My work is dedicated to identifying the causes of jihad terrorism, which of course lead straight back into the Islamic texts. I have therefore called for reform of those texts — a necessity that should be obvious to anyone of good will, although I have no illusions that it is forthcoming soon or ever, or that it will be easy. I have dedicated Jihad Watch to defending equality of rights and freedom of conscience for all people. That's Islamophobic? Then is the fault in the phobe, or in the Islam?

from http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/001527.php. Arrow740 07:34, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Robert Spencer has all the right to defend himself. What I have added is not my point of view, its simply what Carl and William said, they are some of the top Islamic scholars who are not Muslims. So could assume them to be neutral. May be we can include your quote in his response to criticism section. I restored my edits as I believe its more informative this way, If you want I can provide many more reference where other scholars have called him an Islamophobe I have included the most neutral scholars comments as reference. Please dont remove them, their allegation doesn't just surmount to being Islamophobic but they also raise questions about his scholarship on Islam and his publications. This I believe is important. ŇëŧΜǒńğëŗ^Talk 07:59, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes, Ernst does raise totally ineffective criticism. And Robert Spencer is certainly a scholar. The silly name-calling has been mentioned and that is, in my mind, more than sufficient Arrow740 08:03, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Spencer has full right to defend himself. extensive quoting of his amusing pseudo-responses however simply topples the balance. ITAQALLAH 17:59, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Since when are meaningless and POV (though that's difficult to avoid in this article) neologisms appropriate for Wikipedia? - KingRaptor 06:28, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Titles

We don't put titles everywhere. I guess you haven't picked up on that yet. Regarding your fervor for a special section with the title "Islamophobe?" that is providing undue weight to unscholarly name-calling. Arrow740 07:54, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

You reverted my edits again without letting me discuss it. I dont see it as unscholarly name calling as respected scholars have called him like that, I can give you proof that Islamophobe is a topic at the Colgate University "Islam and modern world" course.. :o). So how come its unscholarly. I kindly request you not to revert my edits without even letting me discuss it that is pretty unscholarly :o) ŇëŧΜǒńğëŗ^Talk 08:07, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

As Spencer said, the term is meant to end debate, not facilitate it. Arrow740 08:08, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

That may very well be true, but it's not relevant. If scholars use it... it becomes scholarly even if it is completely untrue. gren グレン 06:40, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Lipstick on a pig

I have just spent a couple of hours turning all of the explicit external links into <ref name="xxx"> and {{cite web}} citations, adding |title= and |publisher= on some to highlight that they come from the subject's own website, and thus are not WP:RS ... it all started when I removed some links normally to be avoided (the NYT website requires registration to see book reviews), but the References looked coyote ugly, and I couldn't stop myself.

I could have done more, but these cosmetic improvements are really just a fool's errand to help manage my OCD, so now it's time for me to MOVE ON ... Happy Editing! —68.239.79.82 (talk · contribs) 00:32, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Put free lipstick back on pig. The NYT no longer charges to view its archives. -- SEWilco (talk) 23:27, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Category: Place of birth missing

For some reason there is a Category entry at this point of this Talk page. Don't know when it appeared (maybe after 22 May 2007). -- SEWilco (talk) 23:27, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] AfD archive

Can someone provide me with the link of the AfD archive for this entry? Thanks.--Kitrus 08:23, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Robert Spencer Scholar

The Washington Times has described Spencer as a scholar here. Prester John ^{-(Talk to the Hand)} 01:50, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

CNN thinks that doesn't go far enough and calls him a "leading scholar" here. Prester John ^{-(Talk to the Hand)} 01:58, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Well, the former's famously rightwing and the latter is actually just Glenn Beck, not 'CNN', but at least you're on the right track. I did ask for multiple neutral sources, but someone else can take it from here on these specific lines. Discuss, everyone, please. Hornplease 02:37, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Asking for "multiple neutral sources" using the same word is unreasonable. Arrow740 23:22, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Researcher" / "Writer" is more accurate/fitting

Glenn Beck is not a news source. He does opinion pieces, which are produced by CNN, the same way Fox News hosts and produces Bill O'Rielly. Do you understand why that excludes them from being neutral, respectable sources?

The Washington Times is better known for its ownership by Unification Church founder Sun Myung Moon, controversial for his blaming the Holocaust on the actions of "Jewish leaders" and publicly calling homosexuals "dung-eating dogs."

To the point, Robert Spencer has been published by no academic journals or presses. His work is not recognized by any academics. Spencer doesn't even have a doctoral degree. He fails the textbook definition of what a "scholar" or "academic" is.

For now, he is a "writer" or "researcher" (at best).--Kitrus 06:48, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

I also agree. If Spencer is a scholar can you name the institution he is affiliated with? He lives in America, where there are tons of opportunities to join institutions and research there.Bless sins 14:04, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

We should only add Spencer in the category of "scholars" if this is NPOV. Carl Ernst says that Spencer's writings are not scholarly. Khaleel Mohammad says that Spencer presents "fictions and prejudgments" rather than facts. Spencer does not have any official degree in Islamic studies. --Aminz 19:33, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

One does not need an official degree in a subject to be a scholar of that subject. Nor does one need to be associated with a university. Your assertions that Spencer is not a scholar rest only on criticism by his detractors; mainly those who don't want to confront his assertions head-on. Further, you reverted my reversion because you say it's not clear in the views section if he's a scholar or not. That paragraph refers to Spencer's scholarship and contains an accusation of unscholarly behaviour. What would make it clear that he's a scholar if that doesn't qualify? Frotz 19:40, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes, for us to consider a person in the category of "scholars", he has to have official degree or otherwise has made significant contribution to the field of Islamic studies. Spencer is simply a writer on Islam, an even in that case, a controversial one. --Aminz 19:45, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Carl Ernst says: "This information is significant because these books are not scholarly, and they do not pass the review of blind refereed evaluation practiced by university presses. They are instead supported by specific political and ideological interests through think-tanks and private foundations. They need to be evaluated differently from scholarly studies, since their agenda does not have to do with the scholarly goals of the humanities and the social sciences. In particular, the lectures given by authors such as Spencer on college campuses may be misunderstood as being equivalent to scholarly research. While it certainly may be acknowledged that scholarship has political implications, independent research needs to be distinguished from hired polemics."

So Carl Ernst is now the go-to guy for facts? Just like Glenn Beck's opinion (see above) can't be used as fact (unless discussing something from his show), Carl Ernst's opinion has no bearing on someone's scholarly status. Someone with a MA in Religious Studies, who writes on religion, is a scholar, period.-DMCer 04:39, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

For us to say that he is an scholar, requires it to be NPOV. Because of wikipedia NPOV policy. This is not the case here. There are scholars who hold that he is out of the scholarship circle. --Aminz 19:49, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

It is, I'm sorry to say, absurd that we now have to prove the scholar status of anyone who you think is critical of Islam. Why do you feel threatened by the fact that he is a scholar? Alexwoods 20:25, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Also, I should point out that he has a Master's in religious studies and works for a prominent thinktank, and that his work being called "unscholarly" by Ernst might mean that he is a bad scholar, but doesn't mean he's not a scholar at all. So I guess I don't understand what would be POV about stating the fact that he is a scholar. Alexwoods 21:12, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Alex, please do not put words in my mouth. I didn't say he is not an scholar because he is critical of Islam. I said he is not recognized as an scholar by real scholars. He has no academic training in Islam. In order to characterize him as an scholar, you need to show that this is a view held by everybody (due to the spirit of neutrality WP:NPOV)

Further, His M.A. was in early Christianity. Ernst says:

The publications of Spencer belong to the class of Islamophobic extremism that is promoted and supported by right-wing organizations, who are perpetuating a type of bigotry similar to anti-Semitism and racial prejudice. They are to be viewed with great suspicion by anyone who wishes to find reliable and scholarly information on the subject of Islam. I make these remarks because Spencer was invited to speak at UNC-Chapel Hill in the spring of 2004; I shared these observations with UNC students at the time to indicate that his views have no basis in scholarship (he has no academic training in Islamic studies whatever; his M.A. degree was in the field of early Christianity).

--Aminz 22:48, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Don't be silly. A scholar studies things. That's what makes him a scholar, not someone else's sayso. Spencer is doing scholarly things, therefore he is a scholar. Frotz 02:09, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Frotz, please mind WP:CIVIL. No. There are many journalists/writers on Islam. We don't classify them as "scholars of Islam" --Aminz 05:38, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Don't waste our time with somewhat hysterical references to WP:Civil etc. As it has already been pointed out Spencer hold a academic degree in the area of religious studies and is member of a prominent thinktank. That mean that he is not just a journalist, but an academic that is working within his field. -- Karl Meier 07:37, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

You have not provided any new argument. His Master irrelevant to Islam. Being supported by a conservative think tank doesn't add to his academic merits. --Aminz 08:46, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

He hold a degree in religious studies, and Islam is among other things a religion. So he work within his area of expertise. -- Karl Meier 15:26, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Let me again remind users Karl Meier, User:Frotz, and User:Alexwoods to remain civil and assume good faith.

Karl Meier has called the polite suggestions of a user "hysterical."
User:Frotz says this discourse is "silly," while User:Alexwoods thinks it's "absurd" that we even question the subject's title.
User:Alexwoods assumes that some users are questioning Spencer's status simply because of his beliefs (they "think (he) is critical of Islam") and "feel threatened by the fact that he is a scholar".

--Kitrus 09:39, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Kitrus: It would be more interesting and productive if you had something to say about the actual issue that is being discussed around here. -- Karl Meier 15:26, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

I also find it interesting that you are talking about incivility: [17] -- Karl Meier 16:00, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

I see nothing uncivil in having a list of banned sockpuppets on my Talk Page. I encourage you to take my advice rather than continue to prove my point or prove another by sifting through my userpages.--Kitrus 08:38, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Your list was attacking an editor in good standing, and that makes it unacceptable. -- Karl Meier 10:38, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

So are you going to continue with this pointless ad hominem stupidity, or shall we get back to discussing the actual article?--71.37.15.48 04:33, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

We can argue until the cows come home as to whether a person is a scholar or not, its all based on what definition of scholar you want to use. CltFn 01:12, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

regardless of whether or not he is a "scholar" in the general sense (definitions may very as CltFn pointed out), he is not an Islamic studies scholar, nor an Islamic scholar (he has no verifiable education in the subject; his MA is in early Christianity) - and we have real scholars (i.e. Ernst) confirming that. Category:Islam critical scholars might be borderline due to the ambiguity of what a scholar may be, but Category:Non-Muslim Islamic scholars is out of place here.ITAQALLAH 11:35, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

That is a distinction without a difference. If you grudgingly admit he might be a scholar for one category, he is a scholar for the other as well. Briangotts (Talk) (Contrib) 14:30, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

not quite, because i think he may be a scholar in early Christian studies for example. that doesn't make him a 'scholar' in Hinduism, Buddhism, Islam, international politics, sociology, or anything else. "Islam critical scholar" is quite ambiguous, does it mean a scholar in any field of study who just happens to be critical of Islam? does it mean a scholar of Islam who is critical of it? (an irrelevant aside, what kind of criticism are we talking about? textual criticism e.g. Caetani? or moral criticism e.g. Muir?). if it means the latter, then that too isn't appropriate here. ITAQALLAH 10:10, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Let me weigh in here. I have a M.A. in Religious Studies, like Spencer, from UNC Chapel Hill. Also like Spencer, my degree is in early Christian History. If anyone thinks that my MA in early Christianity makes me a "scholar" of Islam, they're nuts. The program has nothing to do with Islam. Spencer is a "researcher" and "writer" on Islam, not a "scholar" of it. TarSpiel (talk) 02:43, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Lack of knowledge should be mentioned

The fact that Spencer doesn't read or speak Arabic (or Persian or Turkish) should be explictly mentioned. One could hardly claim to be an 'expert' on Hinduism with no knowledge of any Indian languages; the same holds true here 68.158.113.143 12:15, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

I strongly disagree. Just like many biblical experts don't speak Aramaic or Hebrew (original languages of the Bible), Islamic and Quranic scholars need not speak Arabic. That's why there are English translations and references for the etymology of certain Arabic words.-DMCer 02:25, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Spencer can read Arabic. - KingRaptor 05:17, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

You are wrong, very wrong. One can be considered as an expert in Indian history, with no or very bad knowledge of Sanskrit. Romila Thapar for example was often criticized for her lack of knowledge in Sanskrit. Librorum Prohibitorum (talk) 14:00, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Hypocrisy within his methods ought to be brought up

His books primarily focus around Islam, but he also offers apologetics for any beefs against things done in the name of Christianity (Spanish Inquisition, Goa Inquisition, Crusades, etc... things that are pretty hard to walk around, especially if one is a Catholic). Moreover, he considers "Islamophobe" to be a deabilitating word, yet he accuses Ayaan Hirsi Ali of beings "anti-catholic," while at the same time supporting her stances on Islam. Since when is "Islamophobe" deabiliting but "Anti-Catholic" not? Perhaps this should be included in respond to his position on Islamophobe. And it's funny how he selectively picks which parts of Hirsi Ali and Christopher Hitchens work he likes, but then disagrees with any of their comments on Christianity. It's almost childish to read what this grown man says. -MadarB (talk) 20:31, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

"Ought to be brought up" Some sources and we'll think about it. - KingRaptor (talk) 01:11, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

These don't appear to be of any significance (if true). If certain things anger you about Spencer, they're don't necessarily merit inclusion in his encyclopedia article.-DMCer (talk) 01:37, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

They appear to be significant because it undermines his credibility as an author to go against his own thesis.. This is one example of him accusing Ali of "Anti-Catholicism" [18]. His beliefs are rather syncretic. Ali is atheist. He supports what she says on Islam, but hates what she says about Christianity. It's inconsistant. I suppose one could say it questionable to place it within an encyclopedia, but it certainly is unscholarly for someone that tries to pretend to be a scholar. I suppose it does border on OR now that I think about it though. -68.43.58.42 (talk) 04:07, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

"unscholarly for someone that tries to pretend to be a scholar"?? How is it unscholarly? In fact, it really isn't inconsistent at all. His argument is that Islam is intolerant and Christianity isn't, so disagreeing with Ali regarding her views on Christianity (while agreeing with her about Islam) is right in line with all his previous work. It's no different than a scholar who agrees with his/her colleagues on some issues, while having clear differences on others. This whole "hypocrisy in his methods" proposal is pretty much just original research; I think the article is better off without it.--DMCer (talk) 17:10, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't agree that it should be included (because it is OR), but I think it would be an inconsistency for him to say that terms like "Islamophobe" are intended to stifle legitimate debate, while at the same time, he uses similar terms (e.g. anti-catholic). It's not so much about Christianity or Islam as it is about his philosophy towards terms like Islamophobe. -Rosywounds (talk) 06:39, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Anti-Catholic is hardly as disingenuous a word as Islamophobia. Anti-Catholicism exists; it's after all the most influential Christian creed in the world, a lot of people oppose Catholicism. 'Irrational fear of Islam' however, doesn't exist. To oppose Islam is very rational. While fear doesn't have to be a part of the equation, at the very least they should have called it Anti-Islam. In any case, you cannot equate Spencer using a perfectly valid term such as Anti-Catholicism, just because he disagrees with the term Islamophobia. Another relevant difference between anti-Catholicism and Islamophobia is that we Catholics do not try to accuse anti-Catholics of racism. — EliasAlucard (talk · contribs) 08:20, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Try talking to the Irish-Catholics in Northern Ireland (especially the ones who support the PIRA. They sure do seem to enjoy playing the religious discrimination card against the British and the Northern Irish Protestants...that's what the whole "Troubles" thing was about. I suppose I should also mention that the Northern Irish Catholics seem rather sympathetic to the "Islamofascists" or "Jihadists"; they seem to think the Palestinians' cause parallels their own. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.146.132.220 (talk) 18:30, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] What is the definition of "scholar" for Wiki purposes?

Whether we agree or disagree with his POV, or whether we like or dislike the fora where he expresses his views is entirely irrelevant. CNN and media outlets have called him a leading scholar, in addition. The NPOV from Spencer haters here is very problematic.

It seems to be that if Spencer isn't considered a scholar, nobody can be considered a scholar. It is not up to Wikipedia editors, in any event, to debate the merits of a person's research. If that person has produced a sufficient body of material available for public and peer review, and he has a large enough body of reviewers who support his conclusions (as Spencer does), he should be sufficient for inclusion as a source. It should also be noted that university scholars also publish papers and books which are invariably controversial -- are these university professors also not scholars? Ysageev (talk)

most Imams do indeed lack a PhD, but then again, most Imams aren't considered reliable sources here either. indications for what makes a reliable source on Wikipedia have been outlined on WP:V/WP:RS - that is, they are qualified in their area of study (if it has one, such as biological sciences, historical studies, or even Islamic studies), have their works published by academic institutions (i.e. universities, or other established publishers on Islamic studies in this case), have their works peer reviewed in academic journals and well received by other experts in that field. scholars on the topic of Islamic studies would be people like Carl Ernst, Montgomery Watt, Annemarie Schimmel, and so on. ITAQALLAH 19:27, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Would you consider Bernard Lewis a scholar and citable source? His works have been disputed by many "scholars" in Middle Eastern Studies departments. Given a topic like Islam and Islamism, any writing related to it will be controversial, whether it is published for the masses or a less widely read journal. It is in the nature of certain topics they have less claim to empirical verifiability. A scientist writing about Newtonian Mechanics is not the same as a historian writing about Islam. Finally, many scholars in the field of MES should give one pause, given that large numbers of department chairs are demonstrably financed with petrodollars. Simply because an article is written by tenured professor at an MES department is no guarantee of it's validity or lack of bias; similarly, just because a researcher makes claims that are popular with "scholars" in MES departments, doesn't necessarily make that researcher the benchmark of truth. Ysageev (talk) 19:44, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Lewis' forte is Ottoman history i believe, but yes, he is considered a scholar on ME/Islamic studies- precisely because he has the relevant background education and academic pedigree. Ysageev, scholars differ all the time. that alone cannot mean one is not a scholar. however, if a writer doesn't have the qualifications to be writing on a topic of academic specialisation - and let's face it, many universities hand out qualifications on Islamic studies nowadays - then for wiki purposes his reliability must be questioned. if he wrote on early Christianity, which is the subject of his MA, then he would likely be considered as a reliable source on that topic. as for petrodollars, it's unwise to paint all academics with the same brush. the issue is less to do with opinions than it is the authority associated with academic, peer-reviewed publications. ITAQALLAH 20:09, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

At the same time, either one of us can cite numerous examples of intellectual luminaries who lacked institutional accreditation. Benjamin Franklin, for example, failed to graduate from Boston Latin School. He did not attend any university or college. Is he never to be regarded as an authority or citable POV for this reason?Ysageev (talk) 20:46, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

reliability always depends upon the context. Avicenna might be a prime authority on philosophy related articles, but it may not be appropriate to use him directly as a source in Wikipedia articles. the spirit behind the prescription of reliable sources is to ensure that articles contain material written by and sourced to the experts in that particular area, so that Wikipedia reflects mainstream and informed opinion. education isn't the sole indication of reliability, but it's an important one. if an author or idealogue has been widely acclaimed for his/her impact on a science or academic discipline, then education may not be as important as the fact that experts consider him/her an authority in that field. ITAQALLAH 21:22, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

There are some fundamental flaws in your argument:

"if two are bestsellers" The Protocols of the Elders of Zion is a bestseller in many countries. It doesn't mean its a reliable source.
"It seems to be that if Spencer isn't considered a scholar, nobody can be considered a scholar". University professors (in general) are routinely considered scholars. If Spencer was one, he too would be considered a scholar.
"Because he lacks a PhD?" Please note that a PhD doesn't make one a reliable source forever. Only the material published during the PhD can be considered reliable. For example, I can attain a PhD in astronomy, and later claim the Earth is flat. No one can stop me from doing that. But if I claim earth's flatness during my PhD, I won't graduate.

Bless sins (talk) 06:50, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

If a person, such as Spencer, writes seven books on Islam and religion, if two are bestsellers, and these books are footnoted and researched, why is Spencer any less a scholar than anyone else? Because he lacks a PhD? — No, it really hasn't anything to do with that he lacks a PhD. This is just an irrelevant point being used against him. The real reason, is that he is critical of Islam. He is not wrong in criticizing Islam and he is pretty much always correct about Islam. But there's a lot of taqiyya going on here. So what the Muslim Wikipedians are trying to do, ingenuous as they are and biased because of their religion, is to try and make Spencer seem unreliable because they don't want him to influence Wikipedia related articles with his criticism (and thereby, influence the rest of the world). This is a simple tactic. When Spencer writes, for instance, that Muhammed married Aisha, 9 years old, he is basing this on Islam's own sources (the Hadiths that are considered most reliable). Of course, this would make the joke of a prophet known as Muhammed a fraud, and Muslims don't want that. So while Muslim Wikipedians are trying to appear NPOV by claiming that Spencer isn't reliable because he lacks a PhD, truth is, they are extremely POV by attacking his qualifications rather than his content. They know they can't attack his content, because nothing he writes about Islam is inaccurate since he bases his books on Islam's own sources. So they try to link him with "right wing extremists" (whatever that means) and claim that he's not reliable, and lots of other bullshit, and pretty much hoping that people are dumb enough to believe them when they claim that Spencer is a genocidal extremist who wants to kill all Muslims, etcetera. Muslim Wikipedians shouldn't be allowed to work on Wikipedia articles regarding Islam. Their bias is way too strong if there is criticism of Islam involved. Although, other than that, they can be quite helpful in Islam related articles. — EliasAlucard (talk · contribs) 07:29, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

Please note that a PhD doesn't make one a reliable source forever. — Indeed, and the lack of a PhD doesn't make one unreliable either. Let's face it, his books are controversial because they give a pretty good picture of what true Islam is all about (not that non-existent, "peaceful" Islam Muslims claim they follow). Therefore, you don't want to give him any credibility on Wikipedia. — EliasAlucard (talk · contribs) 07:33, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

"Scholars" with PhD's routinely publish rubbish, approved by other academics who routinely publish rubbish. Everybody knows this. PhD dissertations are routinely rubbish, approved by professors who publish rubbish. Accreditation in fields other than math or science means very little. Regarding The Protocols of the Eldars of Zion, WP makes a special distinction for extreme minority opinions, opinions held by a minority so small as to be deemed insignificant for citation purposes. The number of scholars, inside and outside of academia, which think the Protocols are not a tsarist forgery is an example of such an extreme minority. Spencer does not suffer from this extreme minority objection; minority perhaps, but not insignificant. Also, the Protocols did not feature hundreds of footnotes to sourced material, as Spencer's work does. Therefore, to compare Spencer's work to the Protocols is silly. Ysageev (talk) 15:31, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

i think Bless sins' point is that being a best seller has nothing to do with a source's reliability or lack thereof. "Accreditation in fields other than math or science means very little" - i disagree with that completely. ITAQALLAH 15:56, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

Ysageev - scholars produce carefully thought out material. One indication is lots of references, another is the course material taught to students in accredited universities. Though there are other indications, well-respected books etc.

But the decisive counter-indication is the promulgation of hatred. That's what swung people against David Irving's historical writings - the individual distortions worried individual commentators, but it was very difficult to turn them into a case until people generally associated him with anti-semitism and Holocaust Denial. It was accusations of hatred that turned people against his books, not proof that he'd cheated. Proof of the latter was only dug out when he sued Lipstad for libel in a British court and lost.

Robert Spencer falls down the same way. I'd likely agree with him on many counts - but I'm no more going to align myself with the author of The Truth About Muhammad: Founder of the World's Most Intolerant Religion than I'd defend the author of The truth about Moses: Founder of the World's Greediest Religion. Irving had lots of excellent references he'd tracked down in Germany - but all his references were worthless once we recognised him as a hate-source. Unlike Irving, Robert Spencer won't go to jail - but any contribution he's made to history and scholarship won't be recognised or appear in encyclopedias. PR^talk 17:10, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

Oddly, it is ok for you to label everyone you disagree with as intolerant, but when others do so, it is a problem. As Spencer has responded, critics never contend actual points that he makes, they merely smear him. Nobody, to the best of my knowledge, has successfully refuted specific claims that he has made. I do not, also, accept your moral equivalence. That Jews are no more greedy than anyone else is easily demonstrable. That Islam is the most intolerant religion in modern times needs to be addressed. I do not agree that it is "hate" to point out problems with honor killings, wife beatings, female genital mutilation, the fact that women can't vote in Saudi Arabia, riots in Sudan over a Teddy bear, or riots over a cartoon of Muhammad, or Imams declaring that uncovered women are "catmeat", or execution of homosexuals in Iran, or the women who was sentenced in SA to 200 lashes after she was gang raped, child marriages in Iran, sexual slavery, etc, the list is endless. On the contrary, Spencer is acutely concerned about human rights. Concern about these religiously-inspired human rights violations is fundamentally different than demonizing Jews for engaging in usury, or Christians for opposing gay marriage. Ysageev (talk) 17:46, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

User:PalestineRemembered, so what you're basically saying, is that Spencer is wrong because he is "hateful"? Who are you to make that judgement? I hope you realise this is very clearly an ad hominem, do you? This means, your opinion doesn't count because you just rendered it invalid. I can hate Muhammed all I like. It doesn't mean I'm wrong when I say that he was a paedophile. I'm no more going to align myself with the author of The Truth About Muhammad: Founder of the World's Most Intolerant Religion than I'd defend the author of The truth about Moses: Founder of the World's Greediest Religion. — Tu quoque. — EliasAlucard (talk · contribs) 19:41, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

There is (as yet) no specific part of WP:POLICY that refers to hate-sources (or hate-sites). However, we are enjoined not to use "extremist" sites, and the author of "The Truth About Muhammad: Founder of the World's Most Intolerant Religion" definitely qualifies. It's easy enough to prove that, by replacing Islam with an equivalent religion and seeing how it reads.

There is also nothing against quoting even good evidence from the Holocaust Deniers, however, it's an indef-blocking offence - even a false accusation of this kind will cause an editor months of trouble. You'd not want to dabble in anything so violating of policy, now would you? PR^talk 21:20, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

Interesting response. Threats with repercussions. Where did I write that I wanted to cite extremists? I don't think Robert Spencer is an extremist at all. He has never advocated violence against Muslims, he has never advocated hatred or discrimination against Muslims. He even thinks they should have equal rights and freedom of religion. He is very careful and watches his words. In fact, he is probably the most politically correct critic of Islam there is today. All he has criticized, is violent Jihad, which is a very, very, vital part of Islam. Just because he is critical of Islam, it doesn't give you a right to fuck up his reputation by portraying him as a "hater". To you, perhaps because of your illogical bias, Spencer is a "racist" simply because he criticizes Islam. But I don't believe that's true. Racist is a word that doesn't mean much today anyway, since it has been devalued so much by people who don't know what racism is. You can't compare him with Nazis just because he criticizes Islam. It's not only slander, but also intellectually dishonest to do so. however, it's an indef-blocking offence - even a false accusation of this kind will cause an editor months of trouble. You'd not want to dabble in anything so violating of policy, now would you? — I really think you should apply that to yourself. You are the one here, who is engaging in wild attacks and character assassination on an author simply because he has politically incorrect views about a religion you seem to favour. And for the record, we cite authors who are very critical of Christianity. It doesn't make them extremists, and we have a lot more reasons to be critical of a death cult like Islam, than Christianity. You're constantly equating criticism of Islam with racial hatred of Jews. This is a disingenuous point. Jews, are an ethnic group, Muslims are not. Islam is a proselytizing religion, Judaism is not. Personally, I believe there is some "anti-Semitism" that can be rational (as long as it's valid criticism, i.e., and not wild theories of Jews controlling the world from outer space or some crazy shit like that). But whatever critique of international Jewry there is, it is completely beside the point since it's not the same thing as criticism of Islam. — EliasAlucard (talk · contribs) 23:31, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

PR wrote: There is also nothing against quoting even good evidence from the Holocaust Deniers, Are you suggesting there exists good evidence that Holocaust did not occur? Who knew? It is not only true that criticism of Christianity can be found in WP entries, but that such criticism is almost a pre-requisite to entry in academic professions. It is absolutely fine for large numbers of academics to be neo-Marxists who believe religion is the "opiate of the masses" and spend every waking moment criticizing only Christians. There are certainly valid criticisms of Christianity and its believers, both past and present, and these are included here, they are not called "hate", and the same should be true of Islam.Ysageev (talk) 00:18, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Indeed, Ysageev. It is only criticism of Christianity that is considered respectable today. Slightest criticism of Islam and you are a neo-Nazi who wants to produce a master Aryan race. This is of course all because of the Marxists and other shitty Leftists and their influence in the media and academic world. It's a one-sided double standard that you can criticise Christianity and get away with it as a good guy who deserves respect, yet you criticise Islam and you're immediately branded as evil (which is quite ironic since Islam, in my opinion, represents evil). As for the Holocaust, yes, it did happen, but they have blown it way out of proportions and sort of made a new religion out of the Holocaust. Especially here in Europe where people get locked in jail for criticising it. I personally think that Norman Finkelstein has raised some interesting points on it all (especially by calling it The Holocaust Industry, that's right on the spot). Anyway, that's off topic. I personally think that Robert Spencer gets an unfair treatment because of his criticism of Islam. Spencer has sort of a Zionist agenda since of course, he collaborates with David Horowitz (try raising any criticism on Jihad Watch against Jews and see how far that gets you; Jihad Watch supporters of free speech my ass), and he is biased in favour of Christianity because he is Catholic himself. But there are two things Spencer is not: he is not an extremist and he is not wrong about Islam. Therefore, I think his criticism of Islam should be given more attention and respect than it does at the moment. Of course, for Muslims to concede and acknowledge that he has valid points in his criticism of Islam would mean that they would be apostates and have to leave Islam as fast as possible before some Jihadists executes them. That said, whatever Muslims Wikipedians think about Robert Spencer's critique of Islam is irrelevant since they are not neutral on the matter. — EliasAlucard (talk · contribs) 00:54, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

There are many Jews who criticize the excessive emphasis on the Holocaust, particularly among older Jews. I balk, however, at Finkelstein's contention that it is an industry. Fink has gone much further than the attitude of the "put the past behind" mentality (which is not, in fact, uncommon). Most Jews, actually, would not support jailing those who deny the Holocaust. No Jews that I am familiar with have called for Finkelstein to be jailed, and that prison sentences for supporting Nazism is -- correct me if I'm wrong -- only the policy in Germany, not all of Europe, and that the argument can be made as well that the motivation for such sentences is not strictly related to treatment of Jews. One must recall that WWII, spawned by Nazi aggression, resulted in the decimation of Europe as a whole. Fink has argued that there is a conspiracy of Jews to utilize the Holocaust for ulterior motives, which is absurd. While I can understand the irritation at being consumed with past events and propagating resentments to the present, Finkelstein was not satisfied with that and crossed into the realm of insupportable self-hatred and conspiracy. I'm sure, if you support him, to be consistent you would also object to the recent congressional proposal to admonish Turkey for the Armenian genocide, seeing that today, some claim, such an admonishment serves no useful purpose and interferes with Middle East diplomacy, particularly vis a vis Iraq. Your comparison of Finkelstein to Spencer actually harms your case for Spencer, since the two are not even remotely comparable in terms of the quality of their claims and their scholarship. In any event, you have rightly pointed out that Fink is off topic. I'm not sure Spencer would agree with you that Islam is evil -- I don't recall him ever saying that. His assertion is that a literalist approach to Islam is incompatible with peace and tolerance. That is not the same thing. Regardless, what is relevant here -- and what we both agree on -- is that Islam merits the same level of criticism that is routinely leveled against Christians and Jews, and that Spencer is being vilified when in fact he cares about human rights; also, that much of what passes for scholarship in academia is rubbish, that accreditation does not a scholar make (Finkelstein being an example of both). Ysageev (talk) 02:07, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

There are many Jews who criticize the excessive emphasis on the Holocaust, particularly among older Jews. — Did I state anywhere that all Jews have a homogeneous mindset? No, I didn't. You can refrain from the but not all Jews are like that! retorts. I balk, however, at Finkelstein's contention that it is an industry. — Are you kidding me? It is the number uno Industry, with a capital I. How many billions has Israel raked in from Germany because of the Holocaust? How many millions of dollars has Spielberg made from Schindler's list? It goes on and on. I haven't actually read Finkelstein's book, but his title did it for me. I got the point instantly. He couldn't have given his book a better name. Most Jews, actually, would not support jailing those who deny the Holocaust. — That's what I also believe. But Zionist Jews are a different matter. One must recall that WWII, spawned by Nazi aggression, resulted in the decimation of Europe as a whole. — Indeed, Nazi aggression did play a vital part in causing WW2. But to blame it all on the Nazis is an irresponsible, disingenuous and partisan way of not taking responsibility for causing WW2. Britain and the Soviet Union were equally guilty for causing WWII. It takes two to tango. And let's not forget the Jews' Judea Declares War on Germany campaign. Say what you want about the Nazis, but I don't think they were stupid enough to start an entire world war if they knew it would be a world war out of it. They wanted to eradicate Communism, with violence, a political move I completely support if necessary. Fink has argued that there is a conspiracy of Jews to utilize the Holocaust for ulterior motives, which is absurd. — It's in no way absurd. He is right. Zionists are taking advantage of the Holocaust and using it for their own political agenda. There's no conspiracy about this. It's as evident as it can get. Everything that happens in Israel, every criticism directed against Israel, and you will get two mindless predictable retorts regardless of the context and how valid the criticism might be: Holocaust and Anti-Semite. It's truly an insult to anyone's intelligence. Finkelstein was not satisfied with that and crossed into the realm of insupportable self-hatred and conspiracy — To accuse Finkelstein of "self-hatred" is ridiculous. The guy is an honest man (even if he's wrong about what he's claiming in his books), he seems to care about his fellow humans, regardless if they're Jewish or not. This means he deserves respect. Just like Jesus, a Jew, cared about non-Jews, so does Finkelstein. He deserves the utmost respect for this. The reason why people hate Jews is because many of them (especially the nationalist Zionists) only care about Jews, only care about Jewish interests, and only care about Israel. Of course people won't appreciate a conceited mindset like that. I'm sure, if you support him, to be consistent you would also object to the recent congressional proposal to admonish Turkey for the Armenian genocide, seeing that today, some claim, such an admonishment serves no useful purpose and interferes with Middle East diplomacy, particularly vis a vis Iraq. — I consider this somewhat of a personal attack, since I'm quarter Armenian myself. In no way do I object the recognition of the Armenian genocide, just because I am critical of how the Holocaust industry has been handled (in my opinion, the Holocaust industry is immoral, since it exploits victims for capitalist, money-making purposes. I would personally, myself, never want money from a people who murdered my people, but I guess that's because I have some dignity, self-respect and honour). It's interesting though, that you brought up the Armenian genocide, considering that Jews from the ADL and other Zionist lobbies in the US have done their damnedest to block resolutions of the Armenian genocide.[19] The entire reason they've done this is because they have their own interests in not getting it recognized. In that sense, Holocaust deniers – though I'm not one myself – are doing an excellent job against what I deem to be the Holy Holocaust and its people's opposition to recognizing other genocides; they deny our genocide, and their genocide should be denied right back in their face, politically speaking, it's the only right thing to do against these hypocritical Shoa-believers. And what do you mean consistent with your logic? Just because I think the Jews are handling their genocide badly, does not mean I have an inconsistent logic when Jews are being selfish by not acknowledging the Armenian genocide. Your comparison of Finkelstein to Spencer actually harms your case for Spencer, since the two are not even remotely comparable in terms of the quality of their claims and their scholarship. — No, not really. It does not at all harm my case. Spencer, as much as I enjoy his criticism of Islam, does not in any way come near Finkelstein in terms of honesty and truth. Spencer is just a lackey anyway. He's doing what he's paid to do. He has an agenda behind it, that doesn't mean he's wrong about Islam, of course, but it's pretty much business for his part. Finkelstein on the other hand, is an interesting scholar, trying to seek some truth in the situation of his people. This is my impression so far of both Finkelstein and Spencer. Spencer is being vilified when in fact he cares about human rights — In my opinion he really doesn't care that much about human rights. If he did he wouldn't support Zionism. also, that much of what passes for scholarship in academia is rubbish, that accreditation does not a scholar make (Finkelstein being an example of both). — I somewhat disagree here. Being a scholar, of course, doesn't mean you speak the infallible truth on everything, but it does give you some more authority on speaking your opinion with more credibility (and with good reason, since scholars have a certified education). That said, lacking scholarship does not mean you are automatically wrong in every case. You can still make good points, if they are based on logic and knowledge. And some of the academia is very politically correct (especially in a politically correct century as the 21st century), which is why well needed criticism of Islam such as that found in Spencer's books are not common in the universities. I'm not sure Spencer would agree with you that Islam is evil -- I don't recall him ever saying that. — No, he hasn't. He's too politically correct to say anything like that. That's my personal opinion about Islam. You shouldn't attribute my opinions to Robert Spencer, he can speak for himself and whatever I say, is my opinion. Indeed, Islam is evil, and in my opinion, Spencer is too soft on Islam. In any case, I think this discussion ends here. We agree to disagree on certain things, but the contention of this discussion is that we both think Spencer should be given somewhat more credibility on Islam related topics on Wikipedia. — EliasAlucard (talk · contribs) 15:10, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

We've wandered off the point more than a bit (much as I'd like to support some of what you say - and support some of what Robert Spencer says). Calling other people's religions evil is intolerable in the project for simple business reasons.

But more importantly, this kind of "hate-speech" (or extremism in WP language and policy) is known to conflict with a scholarly product. That's the lesson we need to be learning from David Irving's discrediting. Not that we should throw him in jail (most people opposed), but that we couldn't trust his scholarship. PR^talk 19:30, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Whatever I write on the talk pages, that's discussions. I admit, I do have my bias, but when working on the articles, I always try to be more professional and cite sources. In any case, Spencer must be given some credit for the criticism he has brought up on Islam. Most of his criticism is good points and very professional. He never calls Islam evil, he doesn't advocate violence against Muslims, etc. I think it's unfair to try and accuse him of stuff he doesn't say. Granted, he does have an agenda, naturally, he has his POV, but that doesn't mean everything he writes on Islam must be rendered false by default because of that. His criticism of Islam is intellectual, and although criticising Islam isn't difficult (it's a dumb religion and I could easily write a book like those of Spencer's, since critique of Islam comes very natural to anyone in his right mind), Spencer's views on Islam needs to be taken a lot more seriously by the entire world, not just deflect his critique of Islam as "extremism" and "right wing" or any other stupid reason. It's no conspiracy he's bringing on the table. This is what Islam is. It has to be understood, Islam is a disgusting religion and should be refuted so much that all Muslims abandon Islam. Islam as a religion must be discredited and intellectually destroyed. Spencer is doing a great job on this through his books, let us not attack him, but rather, focus on his arguments. Word of advice to all Muslims criticizing Spencer: get some self-criticism of your religion. Calling other people's religions evil is intolerable in the project for simple business reasons. — It's called freedom of speech. But perhaps you don't support that. I do. — EliasAlucard (talk · contribs) 19:43, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Robert Spencer is not a scholar and I do not necessarily think his views should be held in high regard in any encyclopedic article. He has obtained no official study on Islam, nor is his work peer reviewed by scholars. Spencer did not publish a single work on Islam before September 11th, 2001. He has roughly the same amount of credibility as Ann Coulter or Bill O'Reilly on the right or Michael Moore and Rosie O'Donnell on the left. With that said, it is perfectly acceptable to use his sources; many (not all) of his sources are credible, regardless of how he construes them. That does not necessarily mean his polemic itself is worthy of citation. Often times he cites weak sources to justify his views and treats these sources as Gospel (e.g. Tabari's biography on Muhammad, which is essentially a rewritten version of a secondary source biography that had been written hundreds of years prior). Scholars would never cite that source without providing additional sources that consolidate Tabari's work. Robert Spencer would make such an error and he does show a strong dependency on only a handful of sources (not just in his biography of Muhammad, but in all of his works). Elias Alucard's rant and victim-playing is completely unnecessary. Firstly, criticisms of Islam are just as widely available as criticisms of Christianity. In fact, I can probably find more bestsellers that openly critique Islam than I can of Christianity. This notion that people critical of Islam are being "censored" here in the Western World is utter nonsense. In the Middle East, perhaps. In the Western World, not at all. Please stop whining. Israel does not recognize the Armenian/Assyrian/Pontic Greek events as genocides for political reasons, not because they are searching for sympathy. Israel has strong relations with Turkey; even more, Israel has coordinated militarily with Turkey. The Israelis certainly do not want to alienate their only militarily potent ally in the region and they clearly aren't the only ones that question the usage of the term genocide (the only one that is universally recognized, mind you, is the Armenian Genocide). We are all entitled to our own views, but your bigoted ones certainly do not reflect well on Christianity. It is quite shocking to see individuals that claim Islam to be intrinsically intolerant, while they go around pouting on virtually every talk page they can about how evil Islam is. Grow up. You aren't a child. This isn't a nursery. As a word of advice, do not use your freedom of speech in a way that compromises your own standing and reputation as an unbiased editor. Of course, you may continue to embarrass yourself if you wish. -Rosywounds (talk) 19:26, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Firstly, criticisms of Islam are just as widely available as criticisms of Christianity. — The difference is, when someone criticizes Islam, he will be called 'racist' or 'hate speech', etcetera while it is perfectly okay to criticize Christianity. How many times has Spencer not been accused of hatred when he's only bringing up the hatred of Muslims and Islam? This notion that people critical of Islam are being "censored" here in the Western World is utter nonsense. — Where did I state that critics of Islam are being censored? Your straw man fallacy is not working on me. Israel does not recognize the Armenian/Assyrian/Pontic Greek events as genocides for political reasons, not because they are searching for sympathy. Israel has strong relations with Turkey; even more, Israel has coordinated militarily with Turkey. The Israelis certainly do not want to alienate their only militarily potent ally in the region — Which tells you a lot about their lack honesty. It's like saying, hey, our only friend is Turkey, let's deny a genocide for their sake. the only one that is universally recognized, mind you, is the Armenian Genocide — Actually, the Greek and Assyrian genocides got recognized recently.[20] Not that I expect Israel to recognize it despite this. Hey, they have their Turkish friends, after all. God forbid if the Jews could be honest about an unrelated genocide. We are all entitled to our own views, but your bigoted ones certainly do not reflect well on Christianity. — I'm not a spokesperson for Christianity; I do not represent Christianity, stop judging Christianity based on me personally. It is quite shocking to see individuals that claim Islam to be intrinsically intolerant, while they go around pouting on virtually every talk page they can about how evil Islam is. — Well not everyone can be politically correct. As a word of advice, do not use your freedom of speech in a way that compromises your own standing and reputation as an unbiased editor. Of course, you may continue to embarrass yourself if you wish. — I am not embarrassing myself. If anything, I'm being more honest than most people here who claim to be neutral editors. We all have our bias, let's not be hypocrites about it. And if you claim you're neutral then you're most likely not telling the truth. In any case, enough with the off topic. Back to Spencer: Robert Spencer is not a scholar and I do not necessarily think his views should be held in high regard in any encyclopedic article. — So it doesn't really matter if he's right or wrong, all that matters is that he's not a scholar? Has the possibility even entered your mind that it may very well be so that he's not wrong about Islam? He has obtained no official study on Islam, nor is his work peer reviewed by scholars. — It could be, that if his work was per reviewed by scholars, most of them would have to agree with what he's saying, and they don't want to do that because they are politically correct. — EliasAlucard (talk · contribs) 03:53, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Robert Spencer poorly handles sources as I already clarified once; I used Tabari as a simple example in regards to his biography written on Muhammad. He does not have his works peer-reviewed (I am using the word "peer" loosely) because he does not want/demand that his work be published by academic publishers. Whatever his reasons are for that are unknown to you or I, but certainly it gives one the impression that he realizes his work has no scholarly significance; he has been critiqued in this regard by academics (e.g. Reza Aslan, John Esposito) and has, thus far, failed to acknowledge the challenge. Even with regards to his critiques on Islam, they are primarily hackneyed, uncreative polemics that one could just as easily find from an illiterate, 13th century European analysis of Islam. Even if we were to assume that his work is largely true (as you do) for the sake of argument, he still provides nothing new or fresh; his ideas are primarily regurgitated arguments by other polemicists. The Pontic Greek Genocide is only recognized officially by two nations on planet Earth if I am not mistaken (Greece and Cyprus, naturally). Regardless of whether or not the term "genocide" is used to refer to such events, the Israeli government does not deny the deaths of those Assyrians, Greeks, or Armenians caused by the Young Turk Administration/Ottoman Empire. Moreover, Israel still allows for monuments to be built in honor for those that died, even though the events do not have official recognition. Even Bernard Lewis, who disagrees with the terminology, still acknowledges the full death count. Certainly Spencer has been right before; I don't think he is entirely wrong in every regard. That does not, however, make his work reputable as a source in itself. His work is peppered with factual errors and he, on certain occasions, uses dubious sources. He has a tendency to generalize things in order to reinforce his conspiratorial views towards Islam. A perfect example would be how he applies Taqiyyah to all Muslims, even though it is well known that Sunnis barely even acknowledge it. Sunnis make up 85% of the current Muslim community and, prior to the Safavid Empire, composed close to 100% of the entire global Muslim community. Shiites have used Taqiyyah before, but even then, it is a rarity in history (and usually it was done defensively). These types of blatant generalizations undermine his ability to be sourced directly. I've already given you two huge fundamental flaws in his theories and certainly we can find more if we wish to continue this redundant debate. As I clarified in my previous source, one has every right to acknowledge many of the sources that he uses, but that doesn't mean he is worthy of citation himself. I certainly am not opposed to higher criticism, but it is complete nonsense to sit here and pretend that Robert Spencer's work is mechanically competent enough to be used as a legitimate resource. -Rosywounds (talk) 05:38, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Robert Spencer is as much a scholar as any one of us. I hold 4 degrees with one of them being an M.A. in English Lit. I am a Muslim. Perhaps I should call myself a leading expert in Islam....

Shortcomings on Mr. Spencer's scholarship are legion and have already been mentioned. The legions of supporters are however spending a lot of energy propping his shaky academics up... This is in vain because his methods cannot stand scrutiny.

70.55.238.80 (talk) 20:15, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] About Robert Spencer's Christian faith

He is a Christian, so why not It should be mentioned with his names, so that people of the world should know well that a Christian writer actually hosting a site about Jidad.```` —Preceding unsigned comment added by 116.0.33.165 (talk) 18:27, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

The article already specifies that he is Catholic.—DMCer ™ 20:35, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

You are wrong Mr. It is no mention in the article that he is a Catholic. It would be more specific to include his Catholic identity in the initial part of this article, after all his all writing experience is bouned with the circle of Islam.116.0.33.47 (talk) 03:14, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

I am going to include his Catholic identitiy in the first sentence of this article. It will help those people whose are curious about the faith of Robert Spencer. Why a man not writing about Christianity and Judeism instead of Islam. He is a qualified man but writing on Islam. It is fair to mention his Catholic identity.116.0.33.47 (talk) 03:23, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Why not? There is an examople in Wikipedia that the faith of Osama Bin Ladin is mentioned in his introducery page then why not it should also be mentioned in the article of Mr.Robert Spencer.203.130.7.19 (talk) 06:57, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Bottom line, this guy is a D BAG! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.238.92.254 (talk) 20:42, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Spencer has written about his Wikipedia entry and made the point that "Catholic writer" has a meaning -- analysis from a Catholic theological perspective -- that doesn't apply to his writings. I think the sentence in the next paragraph, "He wrote freelance articles for various publications between 1980 and 2001 on Catholic religious issues" makes his religion clear enough. Andyvphil (talk) 12:38, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Spencer's Views

I added the section summarizing Spencer's views on Islam, and someone removed it with the edit summary Section on views, however well-intended, opens a can of worms for edit wars. People can always visit his site & the bio there. The section was later reinstated. It seems important for an article on a person to at least mention that person's positions. Isn't it at least as relevant as the section on the conference Spencer attended? Entries on figures like Daniel Pipes or Bat Ye'or expound on their theses. The fact that content might precipitate editing doesn't seem like reasonable grounds for deleting it, but for reaching consensus, which in this case shouldn't be too difficult. SpencerViews (talk) 10:39, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm the one who restored it, since it appeared well written and the reason for deleting it inadequate. So, thanks for writing it. Andyvphil (talk) 12:30, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Category Anti-Racist

Spencer is not specifically known for being an anti-racist activist. He is known as a writer/critic of Islam. --Be happy!! (talk) 05:35, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

agree. Yahel Guhan 21:43, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] "Response to his critics" section

At present, this section seems to heavily rely upon the Jihad Watch F.A.Q. Whenever anyone criticises Spencer, he always writes a response online and often challenges them to a debate. I think that these responses should be used in the section rather than the F.A.Q. Of course, we cannot put up every debate that he has ever had, but his responses could be put up for the main critics that are mentioned in the article.

Any objections? Epa101 (talk) 17:02, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Pipes and Spencer

Pipe's praising of Spencer is covered on Pipes' blog. As such it is subject to restriction of WP:SELFPUB, which says that they "may be used as sources in articles about themselves". Thus I'm moving that to the article on Daniel Pipes. Any objections?Bless sins (talk) 19:04, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Two objections. One, his name is Pipes, not Pipe, and there is only one of him, so the possessive is "Pipes's". Two, read WP:SELFPUB again. A comment by a well known author on his widely read website is not self-publishing. If Coulter made that comment on her show, rather than on some other show, would that be self-publishing? Leave it in there. Yunfeng (talk) 19:13, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

It actually fits the precise definition of WP:SELFPUB. --Relata refero (disp.) 22:43, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

I don't think so, because of the general notability of the speaker and of his website. Yunfeng (talk) 22:55, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Well, its his own website, and he's publishing his own article on it. Normally it might be acceptable if he was considered, an expert, but see also WP:SPS, which says "Self-published sources should never be used as third-party sources about living persons, even if the author is a well-known professional researcher or writer." --Relata refero (disp.) 23:04, 30 April 2008 (UTC)