Talk:Robert Muldoon

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography. For more information, visit the project page.
Biography Portal
B This article has been rated as B-Class on the project's quality scale. [FAQ]
This article is supported by the Politics and government work group.
Flag Robert Muldoon is part of WikiProject New Zealand, which aims to improve Wikipedia's coverage of New Zealand and New Zealand-related topics. If you would like to participate, visit the project page.
B This article has been rated as B-Class on the quality scale.
High This article has been rated as high-importance on the importance scale.
Assessment comments

Contents

[edit] 1969 election

"Muldoon established a considerable national profile rapidly; many historians credit his image, rather than that of the Prime Minister, Holyoake, or his deputy, Jack Marshall, for the National Party's surprise victory in the 1969 election."

I hope by historians this paragraph doesn't refer to the book by Bob Jones. This is the only place I know of such a claim has been made, in any case, I don't think its correct. Marshall had just scored a trade concession from the EEC, and Holyoake was still seen as the elder statesman of the Nats. --Lholden 21:48, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Tried and Emotional

Should the phrase "tried and emotional" in the body of the article link to Tired and emotional? I think that would make it clearer to non-UK (including NZ readers, as the phrase, while known, is not common-place). —This unsigned comment was added by 202.169.209.104 (talk • contribs) 15:07, 29 March 2006.

Euphemisms aren't appropriate for Wikipedia articles (ref), so I replaced the phrase with its direct meaning. --Muchness 04:31, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV?

While I agree with many of the sentiments in this article, it does seem to be written in a somewhat coloured way - references to being obstinate and autocratic etc -these are clearly value judgments (though you would be hard pressed to find anyone who disagreed with them. On balance, I think they should remain in - while they'd be difficult to source, they're spot on. ElectricRay 22:26, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

... "(Why the term piggy was applied to him has never been identified reliably.)" Oh, really? It's pretty obviously a reference to his physical appearance, isn't it?

I agree. It would help if this article cited a few more sources. NZ forever 09:13, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] TV interview

I see the following sentence has reappeared: " His abrasive personality was vividly demonstrated in a notable TV interview with TVNZ journalist Simon Walker in 1976, during a routine debate on the potential threat of Soviet warships. Before then, most people were openly afraid of confronting Muldoon."

I removed a shorter version of this about a week ago. I don't wish to get into an edit war, but I don't see what point it actually makes that couldn't be made equally well by saying "he had an abrasive personality": we don't have any indication of what the interview said, or in what way he was abrasive. Unless a transcript of the interview, or a clip of it, or some such thing, can be included, I don't think this sentence adds anything to the encylcopaedia, and should be removed. ElectricRay 18:56, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

http://www.teara.govt.nz/NewZealanders/NewZealandPeoples/SouthAfricans/2/ENZ-Resources/Standard/2/en check that out, comrade :). Cheers, Hauser 12:56, 21 April 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Revert by SimonLyall

"Please discuss wording on talk page"? That was an extremely infuriating and unnecessary revert. Why did you revert every single one of my edits? I am sure one or two of them would be contentious, but you removed everything including ones based around improving the syntax of sentences and clarifiying issues (e.g. the poorly written sentence regarding Holyoake becoming Prime Minister that implies that he was a member of the Labour Party), removing the clarifications of what Cabinet lists are, removing the comment that Muldoon sat his accounting exams whilst in Italy (which I thought was an interesting and valid note), added back the blatantly incorrect statement that National Superannuation was reforming a '19th century' pension structure (it was reforming the Labour Government's newly established provident fund scheme, which was nothing to do with the 19th century!!!!), added back the incorrect statement that none of the Think Big projects yielded a profit (Maui and Marsden Point's expansion being cases in point), left the NPOV and highly narrative comment 'His autocratic style eventually undid him', deleted the clarification that explained Muldoon's personal rationale for not lowering the value of the New Zealand dollar and numerous other things that were simply not POV at all. Interestingly, Quigley and Richardson (along with Dail Jones) voted against the government during parts of the 1983 Budget (specifically over the finance elements), and this is directly referenced in the biography of Philip Burdon (Burdon: A Man Of Our Time by Edmund Bohhan) on page 95 in the Chapter 'Party Ructions And Election Dramas'. Thus, I am reverting this back, and will make the reference to Burdon's book, and will find academic references for other edits of mine which you could potentially be critical of :). Please can you be a little more fair and 'targeted' next time in your criticisms? Cheers, Hauser 07:43, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, there we're many changes at once and it wa hard to revert the controveral and not the more NPOV ones so I did the whole thing. Like I said you edit swung the article from one side to the other in a single go whereas we need to find something a bit more in the middle. - SimonLyall 08:22, 23 April 2006 (UTC)


No worries, that's fine, sorry for overreacting, I was just a bit frustrated about everything changing back. I agree with you that some of what I said may come across as somewhat pro-Muldoon, but this was just an attempt at counterpointing what was down there which was anti-Muldoon. I agree with you that we need to change a lot of it around, and sorry for being a pain in the arse. I've stated some resources as I said above, and I thought it was good to clearly explain what Gustafson and Easton had said. Cheers for understanding :D! Regards, Hauser 10:13, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] ==Gustafson==

I think the further reading list really should include Barry Gustafson, His Way, but I don't get wikipedia programming and made a pigs ear of adding it. Perhaps you could?125.238.79.212 03:33, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Okay, I've added it. I used the ISBN I found at the National Library, which is for the hardback edition. I don't know which edition your ISBN might refer to.-gadfium 03:45, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Crossing the floor on capital punishment

This was around 1961 - yet it is listed under the Minister of Finance heading - achieved in 1967. No time to fic it now - some reorganisation required.. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Herne nz (talk • contribs) 08:39, 30 January 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Patron of the mongrel mob?

Curiously, he was also patron of the Mongrel Mob gang, members of which paid him solemn respect... Googling "robert muldoon" patron "mongrel mob" seems to result in a list of web pages which all report this in words identical to those used here. The word patron implies that he gave them some notable form of public support, and that he consented to their giving him this honour. Is this what is meant? Or is the word being used in a sense like that of "patron saint", implying merely great reverence on gang members' part? Koro Neil (talk) 12:32, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

I have corrected this entry on the main page by referencing Barry Gustafson page 426 of His Way: A Biography of Robert Muldoon which says he was patron of Black Power and that he remained in his role of patron and adviser up until his death. Gustafson describes in detail the informal meetings Muldoon had with Black Power on pages 206-207. Bob Jones, a Wellington businessman and former friend of Muldoon has also talked and written about these gang connections. Muldoon got to know them when organising work schemes in the 1970's. According to Jones, Muldoon closely identified with those he saw as the underdog. ( Jones, Bob. Memories of Muldoon. Canterbury University Press. 1997 ) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 222.155.215.63 (talk) 12:29, 17 May 2008 (UTC)