Talk:Robert Moses

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[edit] Tangentially Related Info

Robert Moses drafted an off-the-shelf freeway plan for Portland, Oregon which was never implemented. He did the same for countless cities in the US. In the 1940s, EVERYONE had a Moses plan.

Who's pimping Portland? What (presumably) PSU student keeps inserting irrelevant quotes regarding PDX into these articles? (Moses and others). Case in point: "...and has since begun to be reversed to an extent in some locales by careful, planned steps by the government, private sector, and people alike. (Nowhere is this more evident than Portland, Oregon)."

I'm sorry. A proper discussion of Moses includes his stomping grounds (NYC and surrounding environs), his effects on the larger region (NE), and the country and world at large (US, North America). Portland has, to be crass, jack shit to do with him.

I am removing these references.

---N - Tacoma, WA

Someone added a claim Moses originated the practice of "redlining". As this was a concept that started in the banking industry and insurance industries it seems unlikely, I'm unfamiliar with the claim, and there's no cite for authorities

[edit] Old comments

This is a nice first cut at a Moses bio, and certainly briefer than Caro. But is "evil genius" neutral point of view? Moses certainly didn't consider himself evil. Clearly some of his ideas were of his time, and have been later viewed as mistaken (urban freeways), but the construction of parks, bridges, playgrounds and houses are rarely the works of evil men. Might want to consider NPOVing this up. dml

the 1964 World's Fair probably needs a mention too. -- Someone else 03:56, 30 Jul 2003 (UTC)
I think I've improved the viewpoint a little. But I'm not at all sure I can be fair to Robert Moses. Along with the World's Fair, we should probably add the attempted highway across Chinatown, and the deliberate building of overpasses on the Southern State Parkway too low for buses, to keep the working class out of Jones Beach. Vicki Rosenzweig
I suggest removing 'evil genius'. It is apparent enough from the article the type of man he was, especially in the summary at the end. -- Viajero 19:58, 30 Jul 2003 (UTC)
I bit the bullet and removed it, mostly cause the "comment" markup was wrong, but also because being "evil" and being a "genius" is not sufficient to make one an "evil genius": for that you must also plot to take over the world <evil cackle!> -- Someone else 04:16, 31 Jul 2003 (UTC)

>>> Moses issued orders to demolish the old Penn Station in 1964. No he didn't. This was owned by the Pennsylvania railroad and it was losing money, so they decided to build Madison Square garden on the site to make more money!

Did Moses have anything to do with the WTC towers? I feel like there's at least a peripheral connection. Should that be mentioned? jengod 20:57, Aug 11, 2004 (UTC)

It might help the objectivity of this article of "accomplishments" were not put in sarcastic quotation marks. Yes, it is evident that Moses had ulterior motives as well as obvious racist sentiments, but remember first that these sentiments were far from uncommon in those times, and also despite any negative views he held, his contribution to the city did radically change the face of the region, as well as the socio-economic structure. Objectively talking about the effects and his possible motives for certain actions is fine, but a good scholar does not make his antipathy toward a subject evident in his writing. It might help to seperate this article into biographical information (ideology, background, etc) and professional information(what/how/when and its effects on the city/nation as a whole). --Firelily17:31 EST 01 May 2005

[edit] Moses and Twin Towers

Moses had little to do w/ the WTC. Jameson Doig, in his history of the Port Authority, Empire on the Hudson, does not mention Moses in the context of the Twin Towers.

Non-governmental people who were involved w/ the TWin Towers were David Rockefeller and Austin Tobin.

The World Trade Center was a project undertaken by the Port Authority under the supervision of then Governor Rockefeller. By the time the project was in planning stages, Moses had lost much of his power and influence.

[edit] Long Island

Moses is certainly honored on Long Island; whether this reaches the level of "adoration" is probably a little too POV. I'd suggest "widely honored" or the like, but will leave it for now and not be bold until the last contributor/editor has another swipe at it.

Rlquall 06:15, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)

there's a r moses pkwy near niagara falls, too. - Omegatron 04:21, Dec 12, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Miles of freeway?

"Los Angeles is considered the "freeway city", but the New York Metro Area (New York + Northeastern New Jersey) actually has more miles of highway." Is there a source for this? How is this computed? What's definied as the metro areas? Of course the NYC area has more miles than LA proper, which is what a strict reading would say. I've commented out this line. --SPUI (talk) 13:23, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

It came from The Power Broker. I won't be able to remember the pg, but I'm sure Caro gave that statistic.Dinopup 18:58, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Indeed it did come from "The Power Broker": page 940 of my edition, in the chapter "Point of No Return." Here's the quote: "In 1964, when Robert Moses completed his major highway building, there were completed or well under way in the New York metropolitan region 899 miles of such highways -- 627 built by him .... No other metropolitan region in America possessed 700 miles of such highways. No other metropolitan region possessed 600 miles -- or 500. Even Los Angeles ... possessed in 1964 only 459 miles of such highways." I checked the end notes, and although they are extensive, I can find no source for Caro's numbers.02:58, 23 May 2005 (UTC)
These figures have changed somewhat in the forty years since Caro published his biography. The Los Angeles metropolitan area has sprawled out into the surrounding counties, stimulating the building of many new freeways, roads, and even some toll-ways.

--I think Caro was emphasizing this in order to bring home a point. In reality, absolute numbers mean very little. What would be relevent is showing highway miles per capita, which I'm sure LA would beat out NY on in a heartbeat. Also, I don't see why NJ should be included when talking about Moses' influence, since he had nothing to do with any of those. --Jleon 22:56, 24 May 2005 (UTC)

Actually, he had plenty to do with those highways in NJ -- at least according to Caro. I replaced the relevant sentence with an ellipses in my quote above, and now I've returned the book to the library. However, if I remember correctly, Caro wrote that the Port Authority of NJ and Robert Moses made a deal whereby Authority money would go to Moses' highway and bridge projects in NY and NJ. The Authority was afraid that the NJ state legislature was going to force it to use its sizable savings to improve the railroads and public transit, but the Authority knew it would make more money from toll-paying bridges and highways. However, it lacked the vision and expertise to build those bridges and highways, so it had Moses do it for them.--Adamzs 01:48, 28 May 2005 (UTC)

--Moses certianly made his share of deals with the Port Authority, and one could even argue that his influence was a major source of inspiration behind many of NJ's highway projects. However, Moses simply never had a direct hand in any highway building projects in NJ, or in any other state besides NY, for that matter. I've read Caro too, of course, and I'd love to know what pages you are referring to when you say that highway construction in NJ was ever ceded over to Moses. --Jleon 17:20, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

This discussion is old - but Moses had a hand in designing the route for the Palisades Interstate Parkway, which passes through New Jersey (but was designed to bring New Yorkers to the Palisades Interstate Park). As far as I know, that is the only highway Moses was involved in building in New Jersey. Darkcore 20:21, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV

The first paragraph of this article definitely needs to be NPOV'd, big time. While I personally am not a fan of displacing neighborhoods for freeways or excessive "auto-oriented" urban development, the article's introduction is no more than an opinionated criticism with a birthdate. Somebody please change this!

Feel free. It's hard to say that his "mistakes" is NPOV, any more than his alleged "adoration" on Long Island is, but it's hard not to see some of his freeway projects as a mistake. What the article needs to say is that some of his projects are now considered to have been mistakes by many informed observers and then sources for this cited, and also to source just who his Long Island "adorers" are. If you can do this, you should. Rlquall 04:46, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I have re-worked the opening paragraph. While it is not perfect, I think it neutralizes the paragraph enough to remove the NPOV template from the article. Anyone that wants to clean it up more, feel free. K1vsr 21:12, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Redirect

It is simiply a matter of Wikistyle to eliminate redirects in blue links whenever possible. It is not a matter of endorsing the Dodgers' move to LA or not! Rlquall 00:23, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Unclear paragraph

This paragraph is unclear, not to mention poorly written:

"Because of this, however, those aspiring city planners, landscape architects, designers and all manner of civil engineers know what not to do in terms of designing causeways and parks. There should (at least in a city planning spectrum) not be bias towards corporate or otherwise higher-class citizens, as he showed in the planning of Central Park. There should be shown interest and great care when dealing with already existing neighborhoods in planning and design—especially in reference to the lower class. And lastly, but certainly not leastly, planners need to discern what place is the automobile's and what place is designated the person's. This conflict, above all, did Moses epitomize, with his many beltway projects. He made driving enjoyable, and thus spurred on the use of the automobile (not that its use would have died out without Moses' contributions)."

And what is the deal with "higher class" vs. "lower class"? Is this article a sociological study in urban planning? I will try and have a crack at it...Marlowe

[edit] JP Morgan

The following comment was originally posted alone at the top of this page, I have moved it here. -Lanoitarus (talk) .:. 08:09, 15 January 2006 (UTC) J.P. Morgan died in 1913. What's the source for his reference here? -- Mike Schiraldi 01:31, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

  • Its pretty much public record, the parkways in long island follow a large circle path to avoid these estates. The most detailed source would be Caro's book, but its also a matter of public record. -Lanoitarus (talk) .:. 08:09, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Long Island Motor Parkway

A neutral article would also assign the blame on the destruction of the Long Island Motor Parkway to Moses.

[edit] Comment

I see any effort to compare Moses's efforts favorably with current developnent disasters (i.e. Ground Zero and the Big Dig) is deemed "NPOV". Is wikipedia a digital Pravda? I'm sure if we just wanted to reprint Caro's book we could simply ask for copyright permission, why engage in indepednent thought or reasoning —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.9.141.171 (talk • contribs) .

Wikipedia is not a place to add your own opinions (see WP:OR), if You find such comparisons from newspapers etc. then You are welcome to add them (linking to the source). Thanks, feydey 19:37, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

In respose to critiques herein I linked to a recent op-ed about the Big Dig making the point it was lacking vision in its construction and planning, and attributing my statement re: the Rye-Oyster Bay Bridge to the webmaster at NYCroads, which I already had cited.

Frankly, NYC's fiasco re: Ground Zero redevelopment reaches the "common knowledge" level.. re: cites...where to start? Isn;t a large hole in the ground rather self-evident?

Where the heck did you get the idea that Wikipedia is a place for indepedent thought or reasoning, or for propagation of "common knowledge"? Please consult Wikipedia policy and conform your edits to that. -- 71.102.194.130 08:31, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] UN?

The opening of the article says that Moses was responsible for the UN being built in NY rather than DC. Could we get a citation or some more details? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 199.172.169.21 (talk • contribs) .

--Robert Caro mentions it in the Powerbroker. p.771-5. Moses didn't get it built but he had a huge influence in coordinating resources to get it done. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 165.106.111.182 (talk • contribs).

[edit] Long Island "landlocked"

[...] leaving densely populated Long Island landlocked may not have been an optimal policy decision [...]

There must be a better word as Long Island is the opposite of landlocked. Lent 04:39, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

How about isolated? Thesilence 20:04, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Are we jumping the gun here?

Three major exhibits in 2007 helped rehabilitate his image among intellectuals, as they realized the magnitude of his achievements. These exhibits haven't even opened yet, how have they already rehabilitated his image? Pdxstreetcar 03:27, 27 January 2007 (UTC) (and I'm not the same Portland poster mentioned below)

we are telling users what the New York Times reported. The decision of curators and experts at three major museums in NYC, bolstered by interviews, is the "rehabilitation," not how many people eventually look at the exhibits. Rjensen 11:43, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Battle of Brooklyn Battery Bridge

I notice a change from saying the Navy vetoed the bridge, to the War Department (Army). So, which one had the say so, at that time? Today it would be the Army. Jim.henderson 23:32, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Caro, p. 674, notes that Secretary of War Woodring, acting for Army Corps of Engineers, veoted the bridge because it was "seaward of a vital Navy establishment.". So I suppose it could be both. Sammons58 00:00, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. So, the correction is correct, since legally speaking it was indeed an Army job to protect the Navy from undue development endangering navigation. My guess is, this has been the law for at least the entire 20th century, though of course one could expect interdeparmental cooperation in an interservice matter. And, in this case, the power was abused for a political purpose. Or, from a conservative point of view, the military establishment was wisely used to block excessive civic progress. Whatever spin is preferred. Jim.henderson 04:30, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] nelected public transit or hostile towards it?

It might seem like a nit, but I would argue that this current phrase doesn't go far enough: "the decline of public transport through disinvestment and neglect." Moses didn't just neglect public transit, he was actively hostile towards it (e.g. he called for low overpasses on the parkways to make sure no one tried running busses on them later). -- Doom 05:56, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Where was this? I've heard it said of Jones Beach, but when I bicycle to that park I have to dodge buses. See the article Jones Beach. Was it some other parkway? Jim.henderson 07:15, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

My source on that is a remark in "The Last Intellectuals" by Russel Jacoby. I would be very surprised if Jacoby wasn't using the Caro book as a source. I'll check that when I can. Myself, I don't remember ever seeing a bus on the Northern State Parkway. -- Doom 20:36, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Well, yes, a basic part of the theory of a "parkway" is that it's for non commercial traffic, with no big vehicles detracting from a pleasure drive in a family car. NSP, Palisades, Taconic, and other parkways were bigger than 19th century ones, but still operated on that theory. And indeed I think they still operate that way, Moses or no Moses, overpasses or no overpasses. Jones Beach of course is an exception, since all roads there are nominally Parkways and if the theory were fully followed then trucks wouldn't bring in food and lumber for the boardwalk. So, to say Moses was a bad administrator of parks because he stuck with the theory of the parkway as far as practical, well, so does pretty near everyone who does anything with parks. Jim.henderson 17:22, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

The claim that this is "a basic part of the theory" is ad hoc and POV. And no one has said Moses was a bad administrator -- that's quite a strawman. The argument -- based on evidence -- is that Moses' policies were deliberate and effective means of blocking access to the poor. -- 71.102.194.130 08:41, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

One of the reasons for the decline of public transit in NYC was the city following WWII was under political pressure to keep the subway fare too low to justify reinvestment into new lines and equipment. Moses had the ability to charge "what the traffic would bear" on his toll bridges, hence had the funds to spend on new roads. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.181.52.14 (talk) 13:38, February 10, 2007

Moses actively blocked public transportation, not just by the low bridges (on multiple parkways), but by refusing to included rights-of-way for rail in any of his roadway takings, when simply setting aside the land as part of that process would have made such an option viable, even if he didn't have to provide the funds for construction. He prodded the city of New York into doubling transit fares in the early 1950s, in order to reallocate $400 million of city bonding capacity to building roads instead of subway improvements. It's not an isolated incident, and it's not just setting other priorities. He worked against public transit throughout his career, and the pattern is well documented in Caro. Moses was in the toll business, not the trainfare business.

[edit] Page references

There are evidently a number of different editions of Robert Caro's biography Powerbroker, with differing page numbers. The NYT 1981 Moses obituary gives it as 1246 pages. The current Amazon editions list the hardcover at 1336 pages and the paperback at 1344 pages. So for accuracy, comments on page number should list which edition is being used. --Blainster 17:17, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Cold water

"He claimed that he could keep African Americans from using pools in white neighborhoods by making the water too cold"

Is this a paraphrase? The term "African Americans" would seem to apply to an era after Moses was active in this field. Is there a more direct quote? Jim.henderson 01:51, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Anyone familiar with the English language knows that "he claimed that", and no quote marks, indicates a paraphrase. -- 71.102.194.130 08:44, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Where'd Moses grow up?

Currently, the article states, “He grew up in the Dwight Street area of New Haven.” However, I have a source (a Newsday article) that says this: “Moses grew up in New York City, where the family lived on East 46th Street, just off Fifth Avenue” source I’m going to replace the Dwight Street thing with this, because at least this statement is sourced. —BrOnXbOmBr21 10:19, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, they are both true. The Moses family moved to 83 Dwight Street in New Haven in 1886, Robert was born in 1888, and lived there until 1897, when Bella moved the family from Connecticut to their place on East 46th Street. So since he spent the first 9 years of his life in New Haven, it's safe to say he grew up there as much as he grew up in NYC. This is in Caro's book, so I'll be sure to source it as well as leave your Newsday reference. CraigyMack 04:22, 5 April 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Interesting Fellow

I enjoyed this article. UnclePaco 04:58, 1 October 2007 (UTC)