Talk:Robert Kocharyan

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In your article you mention that Robert Kocharian was born in Nagorno Karabakh then part of Azerbaijan.

I want to remind you that Nagorno Karabakh is still a part of Azerbaijan which is under Armenian occupation. I do urge you to change above mentioned reference.

[edit] POV statement about Nagorno-Karabakh

Sorry, but in your article there is a clear POV statement about Nagorno-Karabakh, TO say that Karabakh "is an historically-Armenian province that was arbitrarily granted to Azerbaijan by Josef Stalin in the 1920s" means to present this disputed issue under a pro-armenian point of view, while Wikipedia must remain neutral.

In the Wikipedia article about Nagorno-Karabakh it is written:

In 1920, Transcaucasia was taken over by the Bolsheviks who, in order to attract public support, promised that they would allot Karabakh to Armenia, along with Nakhichevan, and Zangezur (separating Nakhichevan from Azerbaijan proper). However, Moscow also had far-reaching plans concerning Turkey, hoping that it would, with a little help from Russia, develop along Communist lines. Needing to appease Turkey, Moscow agreed to a division that left Zangezur to Armenia, while LEAVING Karabakh and Nakhichevan in Azerbaijan. As a result, the Nagorno-Karabakh Autonomous Region was established within the Azerbaijan SSR in 1923. Most of the decisions on the transfer of the territories, and the establishment of new autonomous entities, were made under pressure from Stalin, who is still blamed by both Azeris and Armenians for arbitrary decisions made against their national interests.

So, under this point of view Karabakh was LEFT to Azerbaijan and not "arbitrally given by Stalin". I praise you to change the statement, because if not the article can't be considered NPOV.

P.S. I noticed that the same statement about Karabakh " an historically-Armenian province that was arbitrarily granted to Azerbaijan by Josef Stalin in the 1920s" is present also in other articles and in my opinion this is not really neutral.

Best Regards!

(Virgilio 15:41, 1 September 2005 (UTC))

Is this an acceptable version? Ulf-S.


Excellent one I have to say. You found a very good compromise my friend, thank you very much. Best Regards!

(Virgilio 22:11, 8 September 2005 (UTC))

[edit] Kocharian or Kocharyan?

His Armenian name is "Քոչարյան". It can be transliterated as "Kocharian" or "Kocharyan", depending of the system used. Armenian official sources use sometimes one system (the web-site of the president) and sometimes the other (the web site of the government). There is no "official" transliteration. However, transliterating the letter յ with y is more logical than with i. Furthermore, Wikipedia's cohesion needs to use one system throughout it. For those resons, I want to rename this article Robert Kocharyan. Švitrigaila 14:07, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

The English usage matters more than official one (which would imply Kocharian imo). Google searches give significantly more results for Kocharian [1] vs [2]
Same is true for Google news and Google scholar. Also, until you moved, Bella Kocharyan, the only other Kochar_an on wiki, was Bella Kocharian. We also have Robert Kocharian on several iw's including simple:Robert Kocharian, mostly it is ...jan, among the ones I checked, only the Turkish one was ...yan. The usage on wiki's imply Kocharian as well (when compared to Kocharyan). If a discussion is needed, discussion before the move is better than discussion four hours after the move. DenizTC 15:18, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
Also, doing this is not good before the end of the discussion, and that edit is unnecessary. We can have redirects. Redirects bring some load to wikipedia servers, but so do the edits that remove them. Your edit might have brought more load to servers than the redirect would do. DenizTC 15:31, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
Coherence and cohesion of the encyclopedia are far more important than Google fights. A same rule must be used for every Armenian names on Wikipedia (I mean for the name of every Armenian citizen). We don't need to stick to the most used form of every single name. Redirects are precisely made for that. And I don't know what I did wrong with that: since the article's title is now Robert Kocharyan, I can correct all the links I find. For myself the move of the article was an obvious thing to do. I didn't seek a discussion, but if you want to start one, you can. Švitrigaila 15:53, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
'Google fights' are useful. They (Google/Google news/Google scholar) are good indicators of English usage. See Wikipedia:Naming conflicts#Proper nouns. We need to stick to the most used correct name when choosing the name of the article, redirects exist for less common/alternative names. You are right with your suggestion that a MOS (Manual of Style) should exist for Armenia related pages. Maybe it already exists, and if we had waited long enough, someone aware of the existence of such MOS (if it does exist) could have joined the discussion and had helped us. Note that both Kocharian's were Kocharian before your moves, and this might indicate something.
What you did wrong with that edit was that you decided the outcome of a discussion you started before it ended/before 'good' number of people joined the discussion/before enough time had passed for people to see the discussion, and you took action. Next time, think about using piping instead of moving the relevant article unilaterally, if you wish a different name to appear. DenizTC 16:40, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
"Google fight" is the zero-level of knowledge. Using it is to get a commonly received idea to stand in for a fact. An encyclopedia is a comprehensive survey of knowledge, presented with organisation, coherence and cohesion. "Google fight" has no place in an encyclopedia. The fact that the Kocharian spelling is used twice more often than the Kocharyan spelling has absolutely no significance for knowledge. Technically, Wikipedia has the "redirect" function which is made exactly to remedy the problem of using a lesser known form of a name. The fact that the president's name is "Քոչարյան" and that the letter յ is transcribed by y and not by i is a simple application of a cohesion rule. It must apply with no contest.
"What I did" is not wronger than each of the thousands edits I made on Wikipedia since I came here two years ago. When I can improve an article, either by a new fact, or a precision, or only the correction of a misspelling, I do it. I don't start a discussion with the person who wrote the article before me. To correct this is on no account wronger than to correct that. Beleive me: I don't have anything against those who write Kocharian in the articles they write. If it's the spelling they know, it's normal they use it. But it's normal too that if I see such an article I correct it like a mere misspelling. Since I wouldn't use a pipe for a misspeelling (eg: [[William Shakespeare|William Shekspeare]]!) I can't see why I should use a pipe for Armenian names ([[Robert Kocharian|Robert Kocharyan]]!!!) Švitrigaila 11:19, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Švitrigaila on this, we should be using the most correct name, i.e. Kocharyan. —Nightstallion 11:32, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

The Republic of Armenia translates last names with yan while USSR did it with ian. I don't mind either to be used, but Švitrigaila has a better argument for this. Just my two cents. VartanM 15:37, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
Thank you for your support, but I don't think the queston is whether the Republic of Armenia transliterates its names a way or another. Those two examples ([3] and [4]) show that this issue is quite undecided even in official web sites. It's better to use the -yan spelling because it's simpler and more logical when you transliterate directly from modern Eastern Armenian to English. On the other hand, the -ian spelling was simpler and more logical when they transliterated from Russian to French (French was the "Western language" used on Soviet passports).
The question is whether we should use a single Eastern Armenian transliteration system throughout Wikipedia or not, and I think the answer is obviously "yes". We have no reason to transliterate an Armenian name (for example Լևոն Տեր-Պետրոսյան) in Russian (Левон Тер–Петросян), then in French (Levon Ter-Petrossian) and then to use this form in an English text (the same apply for Azerbaijani names when a name like "Fuad Quliyev" is transliterated in Russian by Фуад Гулиев, then in French by Fouad Gouliev and then spelled with this French form in English texts!) Armenian names must be transliterated directly to English, using the most adapted system. Then Ռոբերտ Քոչարյան is Robert Kocharyan, Լևոն Տեր-Պետրոսյան is Levon Ter-Petrosyan and (maybe you won't agree because of your name...) Վարդան Օսկանյան must be Vardan Osganyan. Švitrigaila 17:42, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
I agree on adapting a system, and the most logical would be, as you said from Armenian directly to English. I also agree on Vartan moving to Vardan. Although I'm not sure about Osganyan կ=k. I believe this idea should be moved to Wikiproject Armenia talkpage, to get a wider audience. But I'm sure that everyone would agree on adapting a system. VartanM 06:38, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
You're perfectly right and it's my mistake: Վարդան Օսկանյան should be transcribed by "Vardan Oskanyan" and not "Vardan Osganyan". I do it at once. Švitrigaila 12:40, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

I've written a new guideline for the transcription of Eastern Armenian names. It's here. Don't hesitate to add your comments on the talk page and to vote for or against it. Švitrigaila 14:51, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Face looking to the left

Folks, can we find an image where he looks to the left? As according to Wkipedia standards faces should look twards the text not away, it looks much better this way. Steelmate (talk) 19:21, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

You can choose one from here and add the {{PD-AM-exempt}} license. All of the pictures from that site are ok to be uploaded, preferably to commons, so other projects could use them as well. VartanM (talk) 20:13, 6 February 2008 (UTC)