Talk:Robert Jordan

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography. For more information, visit the project page.
Biography Portal
Start This article has been rated as Start-Class on the project's quality scale. [FAQ]
This article is supported by the Arts and Entertainment work group.
A Wheel of Time Wiki is augmenting this article or related content at Robert Jordan.


Contents

[edit] Infinity of Heaven

Ought we not downgrade the Infinity of heaven section? As of right now it seems like a trivia item that was given a full section when it should have been written into another section. It could be wrapped up in an Unfinished Works section (any other number of suggestions.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.237.194.204 (talk) 17:48, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

I think we need to do a complete rewrite of article to accommodate Robert Jordan's death and change the perspective to reflect this Manquer 15:16, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Revert

I have reverted the text by Painbearer as it was very poorly written (although I do understand that English is not the user's first language) and, although expansive, resulted in an article which was less useful in an encyclopedia than the previous edit, and was to be honest unrescuable. Rje 02:51, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Ooops. While the editor's name is still Painbearer and not Painbringer, I have reverted/clarified his latest edit. I don't believe 2,5 is common decimal notation for WikiPedia, is it? Also added source note for Jordan intending to write the other prequels *after* Book 12. (thank the Light!) Nae'blis 15:37:31, 2005-08-29 (UTC)

[edit] Changes To tWoT Bibliogr

The Wheel of Time is obviously the most complex and far-reaching of Robert Jordan's works, with multiple 'companion' works in addition to the main sequence.

The intent of my recent cleanup is to simplify WoT written canon. Thus, while From The Two Rivers deserves a mention due to the added prologue, it *does not* deserve a mention due to it being illustrated, since it's of minimal importance in a general bibliography of Jordan's works.

If this were a complete bibliography (a worthy project for some other time) it would include record of different editions of the books (Hardcover vs. Softcover) revisions, and 'component' works released separately...

Such as 'Snow,' the prologue to Winter's Heart, released in E-book format prior to being included *in* Winter's Heart.

Or 'Glimmers,' which relates to Crossroads of Twilight in the same way.

Or 'The Strike At Shayol Ghul,' which was released online prior to its inclusion in "The World Of Robert Jordan's the Wheel of Time."

Under these new criteria, the New Spring novella's inclusion in this list might be just as unnecessary, given the existence of the novel, but that's more a matter of debate than any other change I have made...

I note that the incorrect publication date was given for The World of Robert Jordan's The Wheel of Time. The book was published (in the UK at least) in hardcover on 6 November 1997. This has been fixed.--Werthead (talk) 21:55, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
Woah! And the wrong date was also given for Legends, which came out in October 1998. Some sloppy research going on there! I think in both these cases the editor gave the publication date for the paperback version, not the original hardback edition.--Werthead (talk) 21:57, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Final Volume

The section "Final Volume" is very rough. For instance, it is unclear what, exactly, is meant by this sentence: "Jordan also said that he has already been working tightly on the installement."

I started to try to clean the section up, grammar-wise, but there are too many instances in which the previous author's intent is not clear enough for someone to be able to do so.

--Mac 19:35, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

I have to agree with Mac. I'm tempted to remove this statement altogether:

"The webmaster of Wotmania, one of the biggest fan communities, posted that in a talk with Jason, "He said that Jordan has been dictating outlines and plot lines and everything else related to the final book. He used the phrase "army of writers" to talk about the people that were converting those tapes into written form. It would appear that the final book will still be published."11"

Jason who? He who? Quotes need cleaning up. And who is being quoted?
The footnote link 11 offers no further clarification and seems a questionable source regardless, particularly this sentence:

"It would appear that the final book will still be published."

64.58.131.2 20:16, 30 October 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Illness

I suppose something should be written about his Blog today confirming his illness, though I am not 100% sure it really belongs in an encyclopedic entry, and if it does how it should be done. Any ideas? http://www.dragonmount.com/RobertJordan/

I added a couple of sentences earlier today -- see article history :) Ahasuerus 19:42, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
I reverted a very POV edit on his illness. I hope I was not in error. GofG ||| Contribs 02:54, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

I made one minor change to fix a grammatical error in the section on Robert Jordan's illness: I changed optimistical to the correct form of the word, optimistic.

[edit] NPOV

The following reeks of non-NPOVness:

"The Wheel of Time Eleven books of a projected twelve total comprising the main sequence have been published thus far. Many fans of the earlier books have been disappointed by a change in Jordan's style over the course of the series. In particular, the pace of events has slowed significantly, with a greater focus on minor characters and politics at the cost of action. This is perhaps most evident in the tenth book, Crossroads of Twilight, which Jordan admitted in a 2005 Podcast interview was potentially his worst work to date."

agreed - however this is a widely held view - needs citations and referencing to give it more credence and slightly rephrasing to take a more impartial slant :: Kevinalewis : (Talk Page)/(Desk) 08:09, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
I've made a stab at a more npov rewrite with sources, let me know what you think. Nowimnthing 00:39, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Criticism section

This article really needs to describe the criticism of the guy's writing style. As far as I know, it is a prevalent view that Robert Jordan's style is slow-moving, the plot drawn out and the descriptions overly detailed (pages and pages describing the setting or scenery, without any plot). The views should eventually find their way into the article. --MrHumperdink 15:12, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm gonna be honest: I'm on Lord of Chaos in the Wheel of Time series and I haven't yet seen anything described for "pages and pages" with no plot. :p Slow pacing? Yes, no doubt about it. But not that slow. RobertM525 08:21, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

I also don't agree with listing Tolkien as an influence, since Jordan (at least early on) shamelessly stole plot details and other things. An influence is also the Shannara books, which are also ripoffs of Tolkien. Maybe it being third-hand ripping off accounts for the poor quality of the series. 67.71.140.185 18:50, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pictures

I have contacted the people at www.dragonmount.com about using one of their pictures of Jordan posted on his blog for the writer box. They are contacting Jordan and will get back with me. Hopefully we can get a pic up soon. Nowimnthing 17:48, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] External links

With the recent addition of more Wheel of time fansite links, I think we should trim this down a bit. Let's just keep links to stuff about Jordan on here. The Wheel of Time page has ample space for fansite links, we don't need to reproduce that here. Nowimnthing 17:51, 21 August 2006 (UTC)


Yes I concur. To many external links are unimportant to the general tone of the page and take up too much space. If we allowed a link for every fansite link it would clog and clutter the page. Mystar 23:56, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Quotes

I added quotes to this page because i think there is a lot of good quortes in his books

  • i didnt specify a ook in my quote becasue he has that quote in most books of the wheel of time
  • we should add more qoutes


Pandagrizzly 18:34, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Personally I think this section needs to be removed. It's not encyclopedic or relevant. It detracts from the overall quality of the article. --59.167.75.221 06:09, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Whether or not the section stays, the first quote should go – RJ borrowed it almost verbatim from a Japanese proverb.128.205.228.241 04:29, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] links

i think that the gaint web of links for about every aspect of the books is a little bit .. exstinsive. not just externalk links i mean like u can follow links from asha'man and go all the way up to sammeul jyust a bit to much

[edit] Wheel of Time Role-playing Game

I would suggest adding a reference to the Wheel of Time Role-playing Game under the accessory works to the Wheel of Time.

[edit] Influences

I added Frank Herbert as an influence, because the obvious parallels between Herbert's Fremen and Jordan's Aiel. Furthermore, Paul Artreides and Rand Al'Thor are both the Messiah figures in the mythologies of these respective peoples. Herbert's Bene Gesserit and Jordan's Aes Sedai have obvious parallels as well. The only have female members, are waiting for a male with similar gifts to be born and strive to manipulate politics and history itself.

I also consider Marion Zimmer Bradley an influence. Zimmer Bradley's Morgaine (Mists of Avalon) and Jordan's Morgaine are both darkhaired and short. Morgaine is the daughter of a duke and was trained in Avalon and Moraine is a member of the former royal house of Cairhien and was Trained in Tar Valon. King Arthur receives a dragon tattoo on each wrist during an initiation in Mists of Avalon. Rand Al'Thor finds he has a dragon markings on both arms after he has gone through the trials of an Aiel chief in Fires of Heaven.

Sofie Munter 15:23, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

I reverted the addition of Herbert and Bradley. I don't disagree, but this is not the place for what 'we' think his influences are, it is for what Jordan personally cites as his influences. I think we have a source for Jordan talking about Tolkien as an influence.
Without sources from the author we would end up with some huge list because we could find parallels with almost any author if we looked hard enough. Especially in an author like this who is using mythological archetypes. Nowimnthing 16:16, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
Agreed, with the caveat that we can also use published sources that cite any of these examples. Our opinions as readers are original research; a published dissertation or even a literary critic's analysis would be citeable. -- nae'blis 16:18, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

I did not refer to archetypes but to very specific things. The dragon markings (Mists of Avalon - Shadow Rising) are not an archetype. Moreover, the commercial success of Mists of Avalon started a trend in fantasy the Wheel of Time series is very much a part of. Marion Zimmer Bradley made blatant use of Arthurian motives and characters in fantasy very popular. Parallels with Frank Herbert's work are very obvious and specific as well. A manipulative organisation with an exclusive female membership (Bene Gessirit - Aes Sedai) that is looking for their Messiah figure (Kwisatz Haderach - Dragon Reborn), A desert people (Fremen - Aiel) who have been influenced by said manipulative organisation to believe in profecies about this Messiah figure. In both series the protagonist turns out to be said Messiah figure. The article on Rand Al'Thor on Wikipedia also discusses similarities between Rand and Paul Artreides. I am hardly the first to point out certain similarities between the works of Herbert and Jordan. The examples I mentioned are far too specific to be coincidental considering that the Dune series and Mists of Avalon predate the Wheel of Time. I added these two authors as influences because the paralells with their works are blatantly obvious. Stating the obvious is not original research. Sofie Munter 11:42, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Do not be defensive, we are not attacking, just trying to keep the article up to standards. Like nae'blis said if you can find a published source linking the authors to jordan we can put them back up. The title Dragon associated with either Merlin or King Arthur go back centuries before Bradley used it. From your reasoning we could also cite Star Wars as an influence, it predates the WOT, it is about a rural boy who is destined for greater things and uses a magical sword. He resists the lure of evil and madness. He is gravely wounded the first time he fights his ultimate enemy. etc, etc. Even the story of jesus follows a similar arc. Read The Hero with a Thousand Faces by Joseph Campbell. Nowimnthing 16:03, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

I noticed parallels between this and Donaldson's The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant. Warders who have taken oaths to protect people need little sleep and obey without question much like the Bloodguards. Loial, the giant that was always considered quick to act although he seems slow to everyone else is much like Foamfollower. The man who destroyed the world in his dispair and was prophesised to return also occurs in both (Lews Therin Kinslayer -> Berek Halfhand). Also Kinslayer is a title given to one of the characters in Covenant. Also, the Avendesora relates to some other mythical tree in Donaldson's book that the name escapes me at the moment.


I completely agree, so if I may so boldly suggest to the now authors of this series to consider making this series into a movie series as well since it is one of the better series I have ever read.

[edit] James Oliver Rigney jr.

I think we should change the article to his real name obviously we would include redirects for his pen names though. Jamhaw 18:25, 16 January 2007 (UTC)jamhaw

See Wikipedia:Naming conventions (people)#Nick names, pen names, stage names, cognomens:
"If people published under one or more pen names and/or their own name, the best known of these names is chosen."
I think it is clear that Jordan is by far best known of the names he goes by including his legal name. Someone can do a WP:Google test if they want but I think I know how it will turn out. Nowimnthing 19:27, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Yeah but there is a difference between H.G. Wells and this not only that but this isn't the only penname he uses there are plenty of others he's got and we should use his real name like the H.G. Wells article. 216.174.135.175 18:23, 17 January 2007 (UTC)jamhaw
I find the nature of the above comment to be highly questionable, and of dubious worth to the discussion. I think it's vandalism. WLU 20:50, 18 January 2007 (UTC)


jamhaw, I both see and understand your point. I respectfully disagree, in that Jordan i.e. Rigney, is most identifiable as under his pen name. Most notably he will be remembered long after his death as Robert Jordan as well. People logging onto Wikipedia will most likely be looking for the name Robert Jordan, and perhaps they will not be aware of his real name. Having the name James Oliver Rigney jr. redirected to his pen name is I think the best solution. But then I'm an easy going kinda guy...Any thoughts? Mystar 22:24, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

  • I still think using his real name is better but altogether it does not really matter as long as we have a redirect for his real name. Also WLU just how is it vandalism? Vandalism is saying his name was King Kong or something on the article, on the discssion page I was trying to reach consensus. Jamhaw 16:34, 17 September 2007 (UTC)jamhaw
Wikipedia's policy is to use the name that people most commonly use refer to the subject, as mentioned above. I'd argue that 99% of the people coming to Wikipedia for information on the subject of this article will be looking for Robert Jordan, not James Rigney (nor Reagan O'Neal or Jackson O'Reilly for that matter). As you say, minor given the appropriate redirects, but still a useful convention to follow. - Fordan (talk) 18:38, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
Changing the article title to "James Rigney" is clearly against Wikipedia policy, which is to favor the name under which the person was best known. That would be as wrong as moving George Eliot to "Mary Anne Evans" or Mark Twain to "Samuel Clemons." —Lowellian (reply) 22:41, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
  • I scanned the article (Mark Twain) and they use his real name throughout does anyone think we should follow that? 216.174.135.175 18:36, 25 September 2007 (UTC)jamhaw

[edit] Source for death

http://www.dragonmount.com/RobertJordan/?p=90#comment-61932 - from his blog. Authentic enough? SparrowsWing (talk) 01:53, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

The text is as follows, if you can't get it to load:

It is with great sadness that I tell you that the Dragon is gone. RJ left us today at 2:45 PM. He fought a valiant fight against this most horrid disease. In the end, he left peacefully and in no pain. In the years he had fought this, he taught me much about living and about facing death. He never waivered in his faith, nor questioned our God’s timing. I could not possibly be more proud of anyone. I am eternally grateful for the time that I had with him on this earth and look forward to our reunion, though as I told him this afternoon, not yet. I love you bubba.
Our beloved Harriet was at his side through the entire fight and to the end. The last words from his mouth were to tell her that he loved her.
Thank each and everyone of you for your prayers and support through this ordeal. He knew you were there. Harriet reminded him today that she was very proud of the many lives he had touched through his work. We’ve all felt the love that you’ve been sending my brother/cousin. Please keep it coming as our Harriet could use the support. Jason will be posting funeral arrangements.
My sincerest thanks.
Peace and Light be with each of you,
Wilson
Brother/Cousin
4th of 3
To Catalyst: Never, never loose faith. RJ did not. Harriet hasn’t. I haven’t. Going through what we have, our faith is only strengthened. Besides, if God didn’t exist, we would have never had Jim. We did. God does. Remember my Brother/Cousin, my friend, think of him fondly and glorify God’s name.
Editor’s Note:
The entire staff of Dragonmount.com would like to extend its most deepest sympathies to Robert Jordan’s family. He touched all of our lives in some way and we wish him the rest and peace he deserves. We will be posting information in the near future about where you can send condolences. Please check the News Section for these updates.
--Skyeknighton 02:01, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Only the good die young. - Jarn 04:04, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
Alas, how sad! -- Derek Ross | Talk 04:24, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
The Light shine on you, and the Creator shelter you, the last embrace of the Mother welcome you home. Mirithing 07:53, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Time of death

Does anyone know what timezone the time (2.45 p.m.) refers to? It would be good to add it to the article, I think. --Pyreforge 08:39, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

It would have to be EDT (GMT-4) since he lived in that time zone.Caidh 13:47, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Not 100% sure of that... Wasn't he also visiting the Mayo Clinic for treatment?[1] If he was there for treatment when it happened, that would be a different timezone. - Fordan (talk) 13:54, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Dragonmount.com states that he died at a university hospital not far from his house. Given the volume of site traffic presently, I was unable to visit the page itself to confirm this, but it is definitely in South Carolina--which is EST. -Nate —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.244.233.217 (talk) 01:03, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

If I may offer my humble opinion, as Wikipedia is seen worldwide, would it not make sense to have the time in the (UTC -4) format, instead of GMT as this a more precise, international standard? -- Atomicblue 20:52, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Last book of WoT

First of all my deepest sympathies to anyone mourning him for the loss of a great guy, great author and lots more.

I know this is probably the worst time to be thinking on anyone finishing the last book of Robert Jordan, sadly, posthumous. I think I remember him stating on his blog once that if he were to die his wife Harriet would finish the book. Can anyone confirm this and integrate it into the article? Sadly, it's now more then ever relevant. Abbath is Immortal 16:19, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

See A Memory of Light. There's a link from the blog there. -- Flyguy649 talk contribs 16:22, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
It would be pure speculation to guess at who might or might not finish the book (although it does seem fairly probable that it will be completed by someone at some point). Since Wikipedia reports on what is actual, the proper thing to do is to wait until Tor Books makes an announcement on the matter and then report what they say. -- Derek Ross | Talk 16:28, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
I too would like to express my sadness at the passing of one of my favorite authors. That being said, here is a recent excerpt from http://www.dragonmount.com, home of Robert Jordan's official blog: "Robert Jordan left a partial manuscript for A Memory of Light and audiotapes and notes for the rest of the book. We believe that his wife and editor, Harriet, and his publisher, Tom Doherty, have every intention of seeing the book completed and published but there are no more details available at this time." Dragonmount also seems to speculate a 2009 release date. -- Atomicblue 20:16, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV

I think the sentence "He had deep faith in God, described himself as a "High Church" Episcopalian[3] and received communion more than once a week" should be rephrased due to the fact that it implies, well, that he was right, or at least that Wikipedia agrees with him. This is obviously out of keeping with NPOV. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.67.172.17 (talk) 00:32, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

I don't really see how saying that he had faith in God implies that Wikipedia believes in God (that is what you were saying, right?). It's a true statement about him, and whether God exists or not, RJ had faith in Him.LordArros 01:40, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. It's just a statement of fact. Or rather of three separate but indisputable facts. As such, it is absolutely in keeping with the NPOV. -- Derek Ross | Talk 03:04, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

I think unsigned is implying that the way it is stated implies God exists. Perhaps "he professed a deep faith in God" or "he was a man of deep faith..." Either of those or something like it would serve the same purpose. 66.57.225.198 02:24, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

And it could also be said that "Tolkien had a great liking for elves", but sayng so in no way implies that elves exist outwith his imagination. God certainly exists in people's imaginations whether or not He exists independently of that. There's nothing wrong with your rewordings but then there was nothing wrong with the original wording either. -- Derek Ross | Talk 05:32, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

I honestly don't see anything wrong with the sentence. Saying someone has deep faith in something does not imply its existence. All it's saying is that he believed in God. sdgjake 16:42, 23 September 2007 (UTC)