Talk:Robert Baden-Powell, 1st Baron Baden-Powell

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  • Robert Baden-Powell, 1st Baron Baden-Powell is the proper name and title for this article, and is the consensus of many editors; it has been stable since well before it became a Featured Article. For past dialog on this subject, please refer to the archived discussions.
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*September 2005 – March 2006


Contents

[edit] Opposition to English Expansionism and War

The article does not have any mention of Baden Powel’s opposition to English politics and constant fighting. I am not fully aware of the extent of Baden Powell’s feelings on the matter, but it is an important issue to be addressed. To include this in the article, some sources need to be found that are available to the readers of the document. I know of one guy, in the Atlanta Area Council, who shared this in his Wood badge presentation as part of his patrol’s ticket service requirements. They are working closely with Kenya to better maintain Baden Powell’s grave, house, and they are funding (part or whole, I’m not sure) the museum being constructed near Powell’s grave. I feel he is a credible source, and I will dig up more on him, but an available online source would be great if anyone can find a credible site. Law freak 03:18, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Lord Baden-Powell Sculpture on Poole Quay

This link is basically information that a statue *will* be built and an appeal for donations. I've searched and cannot find any reference that it was actually built and emplaced. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 18:13, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

I made an inquiry to the appeal, with no results. I am redacting this until some verification can be made. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 22:36, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Edits by 77.101.75.15

The latest edits by User:77.101.75.15 are a bit perturbing. diff The change of "natives" to "Africans" is not particularly helpful— The white colonists of Cape Colony, the Transvaal, Natal and the Orange Free State could have considered themselves to be African for all I know. It would be better if we referred to them by tribe as we do the Zulu, but the refugee camp was a mix. Pakenham's analysis has been pretty much deprecated by Jeal in this instance. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 21:35, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

  • I also quite dislike the controversial texts: most are contrary to later well-referenced information (as pointed out here by Ed), or even open-ended. I would propose reverting these additions to a well-balanced article, and then an reasonable discussion on this page here about what to add back in (if any). Wim van Dorst (Talk) 19:53, 21 October 2007 (UTC).
    • you've got my support. Rlevse 19:54, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

In the preface to the 2001 edition of Baden-Powell, Jeal notes that Pakenham, in The Siege of Mafeking (2001), retreats from his earlier position that Baden-Powell had deliberately starved the natives. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 20:18, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

  • Done. I retained some of the text, but give it an IMHO useful, balanced view. Wim van Dorst (Talk) 21:21, 21 October 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Disambiguation page?

There's a disambiguation page at Baden Powell. Why? Wim van Dorst (Talk) 21:28, 21 October 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Scouting and militarism

Suggest that some of the following be incorporated into the article. --Jagz (talk) 16:15, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Already before the start of Scouting, Baden-Powell was accused of having a military goal, even for covertly training cadets, but he was always strongly opposed to this.[1]

  • The base of Scouting, the book "Scouting for boys ", was not a rewrite of the popular "Aids to Scouting", a small instruction book Baden-Powell wrote about military Scouting. Baden-Powell transferred only the techniques to non-military heroes: backwoodsman, explorers, sailors and airmen.[2] "Scouting for Boys" has no military content.
  • Some refer to a military hierarchy, but in contrary Scouting has an anti-authoritarian streak.[3] The Patrol leader is a leader, but is in many scouting organisations, elected by members of the patrol. About the Scoutmaster Baden-Powell "stipulated that the position of Scoutmaster was to be neither that of a schoolmaster nor of a commander Officer, but rather that of an elder brother among his boys, not detached or above them individually".[2]. These are no military hierarchy.
  • Baden-Powell did support to learn shooting with a rifle, which even resulted in a few pages of instruction in "Scouting for Boys". This had however no military aim, but would be useful if boys really became frontiersmen by settling in the colonies, which Baden-Powell advertised.[1]
  • The uniform was and still is the strongest suggestion of a military Scouting. Baden-Powell gave three reasons for the uniform: the boys like it, it gives a group feeling and it covers differences in wealth. The first reason he explains as giving the boys a direct connection to their heroes, so as part of the theatrical side of the Scouting game.[2] However in reality those heroes did not wear uniforms and Baden-Powell must have realised that a (hidden) part of the attractions for boys was the military suggestion.

The absence of real military aspects does not mean that Baden-Powell was anti-military. His efforts for peace became stronger in time, making him anti-war, but he disapproved anti-militarism. He even did not see any harm in training in a military way.[1] [4] One reason for not using the military parts can been seen from his reaction on the Boys Brigade. It was the intention of Baden-Powell to make an attractive boys game and he just thought that the military was not attractive enough.[3] The second reason was that some parents would object military training, which would limit the reach of Scouting.[5] There was probably another reason. The centre of his Scout method was individuality (opposite to the group), making own decisions (opposite to following the herd or commander), doing good turns, self-learning (opposite to instruction by drill) [5] and a game based on theatre and "make believe". These would never fit in a military scheme. Baden-Powell did use some parts of his profession which he found useful, like the uniform and some names, but these are always externals, never the essential fighting core of military nor specific military techniques.

[edit] Sexuality

Coments in this article to not match tone of referenced article. To state "have found a great deal of evidence" when at best the evidence is circumstantial and at that not a very large body. Seems a POV without fact to back it up. While I do not fully agree, the language in the "Robert Baden-Powell's sexual orientation" seems more balanced. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.226.58.102 (talk) 16:04, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Robert Baden-Powell's sexual orientation is not a stable article. My experience is that if you make any change to it, a flurry of changes will follow. An attempt was made for about a year to keep the section here synchronized with the main article, this was abandoned. See Talk:Robert_Baden-Powell,_1st_Baron_Baden-Powell/ArchiveToJuly2007#Sexuality__.2F__Summary_Style for details. On further examination, the section here seems to have been changed at some recent point ; we need to look at this some more. --— Gadget850 (Ed) talk - 16:15, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

The text I was referring from the other article was "Robert Baden-Powell's sexual orientation has been brought into question by some modern authors. Even though he married and had three children, circumstantial evidence suggests he may have taken an erotic interest in men." Actually I was surprised by the more neutral tone of the referenced article. Suggest that similar language to there be used instead. I see nothing in the footnotes to suggest "great deal" or that these authors were the "principal" biographers as the language in this article currently suggests.

I think the foot note on the other article might also help balance this section "This conclusion may or may not withstand scrutiny, but the discussion emphasizes an important undercurrent to Baden-Powell's life. He intensely identified with and enjoyed all-male culture and the activities that accompanied it. Whether this interest was simply an extension of a Victorian sensibility toward male friendship or a latent indication of homosexuality, we may never know."[11]

I wrote the text in question for this article and it was propagated to the other, then it disappeared from here. I'm still looking at the article history to see the reasoning for the changes. --— Gadget850 (Ed) talk - 22:54, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Fascism, B-P's views on

In the Personal life section, I find the content dealing with B-P's views to raise more questions than it answers. For example, the quotation from his diary says that after reading Mein Kampf, B-P wrote of the "...ideals which Hitler does not practice himself." How can that be construed as "sympathy", as the next sentence in the article states? To me, that sounds like B-P rightly saw thru Hitler as a hypocrite and liar. In fact, the Nazis banned Scouting in Germany in the 1930s, so it is hardly likely that B-P would have any sympathy towards Hitler or Nazism. As to B-P's supposed sympathies towards Mussolini, when was that? In the 1920s, or later in the the 1930s, when Mussolini aligned himself with Hitler and embarked on an expansionist foreign policy? Historical context here is essential for a correct interpretation of B-P's views. Unfortunately, only one source is cited — to a dead Australian link — so the reader is left floundering.

Did Rosenthal really say "Baden-Powell used the swastika because he was a Nazi sympathizer"? Where's the cite? When did B-P "use" swastikas? In his paintings? At Brownsea Island in 1907 or in September 1939 when England was at war with Germany? Obviously, the context is extremely important to a correct understanding and the article fails to provide that. Prior to the rise of Nazism, when the swastika was expropriated by the Third Reich for its own evil ends, the swastika was not a political symbol at all and was widely used in various cultures (with the "arms" facing left). Indeed, note the teepee image at the 1937 National Jamboree in Washington DC here. The Nazis adapted the swastika with the arms facing right — which version did B-P use, the ancient Indian version or the Nazi version of the 1930s? Obviously, this is significant if Rosenthal is to be given any credence.

As it is, I don't think this paragraph really belongs in the article. JGHowes talk - 13:20, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

We'd need a copy of the book, online, or whatever to figure that out. You ask valid questions. — Rlevse • Talk • 13:23, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
As I recall, someone shoehorned this content into the article to illustrate that B-P was a Nazi sympathizer. It got reworked several times and it looks like it got chopped to the point where it is not very coherent. As noted in swastika, the direction of the swastika has no real meaning, as several cultures seem to have independently created the symbol. See Western use of the Swastika in the early 20th century for some use in Scouting, and here are two links.[1] [2] My personal opinion: B-P was probably ticked off by the Nazi use of the symbol and tried to hang on to it past the point where others had abandoned it. If you have ever read Mein Kampf (which is a struggle in itself), you will find that Hitler espoused several quite democratic views that he never implemented. I have the later edition of Jeal, so I will check this out in a bit. --—— Gadget850 (Ed) talk - 14:49, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

I have a copy of "The Character Factory" by Rosenthal. It is interesting that swastika, Hitler and Fascism do not appear in the index. Mussolini does. It talks of BP's enthusiasm for the Ballila (the fascist youth organisation in Italy) in 1933 and his later backing off from this view in 1940. There are several references to the British Scout Archives for this section. The book also says that he was eager for the Scouts to establish official relations with the Hitler Jugend as late as 1937, in spite of the advice of the International Bureau (IB). The IB in 1935 had said that the Scouts "have nothing in common with Hitler Jugend and that any contact between Scouts and Hitler Jugend is undesirable". Rosenthal says this never ceased to trouble BP. All this is on pages 272 - 278. It is clear that we should recognise that BP was not as opposed to Hitler and Fascism as we might now like looking back with hindsight. We should however also recognise that his views were typical of his class. The people surrounding Chamberlain in the Tory Party, and others from the upper classes, had quite obnoxious views about Fascism. Nevertheless, it should also be noted that many of these people fought bravely against Hitler once the war started or were otherwise involved in war work. The number of people like Oswald Mosely were quite small. --Bduke (talk) 23:16, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Jeal notes that many of Rosenthal's views were based on Packenham's portrayal of B-P in The Boer War (1979) where B-P is shown as racist in his treatment of the natives during the Siege of Mafeking, but is in a completely different light in Packenham's later The Siege of Mafeking (2001).
On Jeal: Chapter 17.3 "Baden-Powell and the Dictators". Jeal specifically notes Rosenthal's view of B-P on Mussolini and puts it into better context, noting that Churchill and others initially approved of Mussolini and his anti-communist stance. The Ballila absorbed the Italian Scouts— but we must remember that they were started by Sir Francis Vane after he split with B-P, and they were never recognized by the International Bureau. Jeal notes that B-P initially approved of the Ballila, but later denounced then as "cadets, pure and simple". Jeal directly repudiates Rosenthals depiction of B-P and Hitler. Again, there were no recognized Scout groups in Germany, and the nascent groups quickly merged with the Hitler Jugend. Again, B-P had some initial praise, but by 1937 was highly critical. B-P and other Scout leaders, including J. S. Wilson, advocated a relationship with the Hitler Jugend, inviting them to camps in England to expose them to the true Scouting movement; others were opposed. After Kristallnacht, all ties were dropped. As to the diary entry: Jeal noted this entry from October 1939, and also notes an entry from March 1939 when B-P opines that Hitler was a megalomaniac. Jeal states that B-P used the swastika, and became rather obstinate about it until late 1935 when he dropped it. --—— Gadget850 (Ed) talk - 02:18, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
Excellent sourcing, Ed. Will you be rewriting the paragraph in question? JGHowes talk - 02:31, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

I do not recall "According to his biographer Rosenthal, Baden-Powell used the swastika because he was a Nazi sympathizer." and I will try to look for it. If it stays it should be referenced to the page of the book where it is said, if it is. B-P's interaction with Mussolini is I think more complex. Rosenthal reports B-P in 1941 as directly contradicting what he said about Mussolini in 1933 and I think these are referenced. It is not so much about the anti-communism stance but about B-P's views on the Ballila - really positive in 1933, but negative in 1941. I'll have another look later but I'm busy testing code at present and just taking a break. --Bduke (talk) 03:30, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

I refactored the first part of my previous comment, as it was Pakenham who changed his views. It has been quite a while since I read Rosenthal but Jeal does a much better job of putting events into context. --—— Gadget850 (Ed) talk - 18:50, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
Let me clarify a few things about Italy, scouting in Italy, Mussolini and B.-P.
The first scout association in Italy (REI) was started in 1910 by Sir Francis Vane, it's true, and so it wasn't recognized. But in 1912 another organization (CNGEI) started which eventually was recognised, and in 1916 another one, recognised too (ASCI). The founder of ASCI, count Mario of Carpegna, was also a member of the International Committee. Vane's unrecognised scout association disappeared around 1913-1914. So it is wrong to say that Italian scouts "were never recognized by the International Bureau". B.-P. himself met a few times with Italian troops, including one from REI. ASCI had the swastika as one of its badges, even at a time when fascism was in power, the Balilla (not "ballila") had already been started, and whenever a scout troop met in the street with a group balilla a fight was certain to happen. So, scouting in Italy was using a swastika without being a fascist sympathizer. The same can be said for B.-P.
In 1926-1927 scouting in Italy was disbanded. This doesn't mean the Balilla absorbed the scouts. While all youth were forced to join the various fascist youth organizations (GIL, Balilla, Figli della Lupa, Avanguardisti), almost all the scout leadership stood away from these. So, please, don't say that the Balilla absorbed the scouts. This is very offensive, especially since many scouts eventually joined the Resistance.
Last but not least, I think the best source on B.-P.'s meeting with Mussolini, from which came his initially positive perception of the Balilla is Mario Sica's "Storia dello Scautismo in Italia".
--Lou Crazy (talk) 22:44, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Lord Baden-Powell

When discussing with my own troop, and in many articles elsewhere on the Internet, B-P is referred to as Lord Baden-Powell. However, no where in this article does it call him as a lord. I am not certain why we refer to him as a lord, I think something to do with being a baron, but I think that this should be mentioned somewhere in the article. Prymal (talk) 00:30, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

He went from being plain Mr Baden-Powell, to Sir Robert Baden-Powell in 1921, then Baron Baden-Powell in 1929. Peers (whether they’re barons, viscounts, marquesses or earls – but not dukes) are referred to informally as “Lord X”. However, in encyclopedia articles most sentences refer to the subject by surname alone. -- JackofOz (talk) 00:40, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
Read all about titling in the first archive as well as all the others. Wim van Dorst (talk) 23:38, 10 June 2008 (UTC).