Talk:Roads in Ireland

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[edit] Not a joke

This could be told as an Irish joke but it is true.

Dual carriageways are still rather new in Ireland so as a precaution, on the rear of each sign on a dual carriageway is another sign saying Wrong way. Turn back.

They may not be everywhere but I saw some recently on the N11 road. -- RHaworth 10:09, 2005 Apr 3 (UTC)

They are usually at the end of motorway off-ramps... --Rdd 4 July 2005 23:38 (UTC)

They most certainly exist on onramps, but not on the back of every sign, even on the very very old dual carraigeways (nass, stillorgan) --Kiand 17:16, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

These are still placed on new motorways/dual-carriageways. There are also confirmation destination signs just where off-ramps leave the carriageway - they are of little use as it's not like you can change your mind at the point where you can read them. The morale of the story - don't assume signposting in Ireland is useful or well-thought out. zoney ♣ talk 00:02, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

They are not specifically Irish. Such signs are commonly seen in the United States (where drivers are hardly unused to dual carriageways!) – see [1] and [2] – and Australia – see [3]. --Picapica 12:57, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Connections between the systems

It seems to treat them as independent entities and doesn't cover interconnections particularly well. Looking at map I see the M1 stops near Dundalk, but the route continues north through the international border, round Newry, and then meeting up the the other M1 near Lisburn. Morwen - Talk 16:18, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Both the list of route designations in the Republic and Northern Ireland note the end-destinations, and also note the connecting route designations across the border (e.g. N1 Dublin - Dundalk - (A1 to Belfast) and A1 Belfast - Lisburn - Banbridge - Newry - becoming the N1 at the border and continuing to Dundalk and Dublin).
I'm uncertain as to what further could be done - there are two route classification schemes in use, despite the major cross-border routes, and certain routes in the Republic being mapped as if sections run through the North (e.g. N3 "reappearing" in Donegal).
The current arrangement is useful as it clearly shows the sections pertaining to particular designations, but they are all here on one page so interconnections can clearly be followed. Admittedly a map would be the most useful tool in indicating contiguous routes (i.e. Dublin-Belfast, etc.) that consist of several designated roads.
zoney ♣ talk 00:00, 18 January 2006 (UTC)


[edit] J routes in Dublin city

There are a number of roads in Dublin city classified as Jxx roads. I can't find out wht the J stands for. Does anyone know?

franyhi
This is a crazed local scheme in Dublin. Two "ring" routes are designated (going via various roads). These are coloured in two colours (I think one is light-blue). Then on the radial routes passing through them, there are signs marking a junction number on the ring route. The "J" stands for junction.
I really think it's very unlikely anyone makes use of the scheme. It's another obvious indicator of our useless and confusing route signage in this country, which doesn't adhere to standards (not that there seem to be consistent ones anyways!)
zoney ♣ talk 11:02, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] National Primary Routes and Motorways

Is there a better way to explain how route numbers work in this country. People keep making the same mistake thinking that N routes and M routes are separate (like A roads and M roads in the UK). They aren't. All M roads in Ireland are part of a national primary route (e.g. N1, N7). The roads which were previously N roads before being bypassed by motorway are no longer N roads. In many cases, signage does not always reflect this change (although a dead giveaway is usually the brand new signs erected at the beginning/end of the bypass which list an R road designation on the directions for the bypassed route).

Also, in urban areas, the signposted N routes do not always adhere to the legislated routes. A case in point is the N7 in Limerick. The new southern bypass has been signposted as the N7, and the road into Limerick through Castletroy is signposted as an R route on the new signage (at the beginning of bypass, and the junction with the road to Murroe). However, the existing N7 signage is still in place along that road into the city (the Dublin road), including recent signage on the N7 Parkway scheme (completed prior to the southern bypass).

The legislated route (not updated to show the southern bypass now being the N7) continues into the city, across to King's Island, and along the Northern Relief Road.

Have a look at some maps, the situation on the ground, and the statute book to see the mess for this route! Note that on the N7, only the Naas Motorway is included in this 1994 act (motorway sections are highlighted in Block capitals.

In short, the system itself is confusing, and the lax implementation on the ground all the more so. Have I described it under the Route Number Inheritance section as best as possible?

I wonder can we write to the minister responsible, looking for definitive routes to be set in the statute books again, and regularly updated as needed?

zoney ♣ talk 14:44, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Updated routes in the statute books.
Roads Act 1993 (Classification of National Roads) Order 2006 (PDF)- Department of Transport
Roads Act 1993 (Classification of Regional Roads) Order 2006 (PDF) - Department of Transport
N7 road and R445 road updated appropriately (situation described in parent comment is resolved).
Hopefully updates will occur more frequently as routes change. Most recently completed project as of July 2006 is the Mitchelstown relief road. The first source above already describes that as part of the N8.
zoney ♣ talk 22:08, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Local Council Roads

It say in the "Roads in the Republic of Ireland" section about a type of road which is a layer of stones set in 6mm of bitumen. I believe this is called "chip seal" and is used in some places in New Zealand. Can anyone add corrections/other info?

[edit] Style/POV problems =

This article contains much valuable information but it has serious problems of style and POV. It needs to be Wikified.

Right in the first para we have:

"It is true to say that many rural roads, even in Northern Ireland, remain an 'exciting' ride. For an unforgettable example, drive from Charleville to Macroom in County Cork; all the stereotypical components are present, from road 'surface' and potholes, to junctions and vicious bends (often combined for added thrills)."

And there's a para ending: "Among the Irish motoring public, surface dressing is becoming taboo and someday the councils will realise this" (blatant POV). Ryancolm 10:07, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Standardisation Help!

I am trying to come up with a fact-box for National secondary roads; below is my first attempt in the N80 article:

Destinations (NW to SE)
N80 through Stradbally
N80 through Stradbally
The N80 crosses the N78 at a staggered junction
The N80 crosses the N78 at a staggered junction

One problem; it could do with the route-marker logo N6 which appears in all the Motorway and Primary route articles (usually supplied by User:Zoney as far as I can tell).

The box (right) here is obviously copied and modified from the Primary N-series articles; adjusted for the fact that very few towns are bypassed and the roads don't have interchanges.

Would any genius out there like to try and come up with a more refined info-box so we can apply it to my planned series on Nat secondary roads?

I think such a series is a good way of cataloguing the geography of Ireland as they pass through all the main towns, hills, lakes, historic sites etc - they can be built into the link to all of these. Some graphic which maps the road with the various connections (towns, villages, junctions, sites, hills, points of interest, rivers and so forth) in some stylised manner would be great.

And for roads train-spotters we could give the carriageway standard of the various sections; these roads will be evolving for the next 20 years or more. (Sarah777 22:47, 21 February 2007 (UTC))

Look at these route templates. They're primarily for train routes but I'm sure they could be adapted for roads, particularly motorways:
or we could take a look at what the Americans did:
Ga2re2t 16:55, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
The US one is way too cluttered and not exactly a design classic! The railway one is very good - something to work on; I've thought of an actual outline of the roads on a scaled N/S map extract for Regional roads (which aren't too long) with the railway "style" albeit not straight linear. If I knew a way of lifting the road from the background map I'd show an example...maybe trace and photograph? If we can come up with something good we'd really establish "best practice" for more localised roads. (Sarah777 00:55, 16 November 2007 (UTC))
To lift the road from the background map I suggest importing the map into MS PowerPoint and then using the line drawing tool + "edit points" function to trace over the roads. You can then export the entire traced roads network as an image file, i.e. bmp, gif, png, etc. However, it's best practice to make .svg image files, which is a little more difficult to do. (Ga2re2t 11:49, 16 November 2007 (UTC))

[edit] Zoney Template

R154 Destinations (SE to NW)

This is better, it includes road connections/junctions. Still need route-marker logo to give it a nice presentation. HOW are these generated? (Sarah777 23:21, 26 February 2007 (UTC))

[edit] Dvision into two articles

Why is there only one article for the roads of Ireland? Whilst the railway network on the island of Ireland is two systems which are very much interlinked: joint serivce (enterprise), same gauge, same loco models, same signalling systems etcl, the road networks are not. Across the border there are roads that link and both drive on the same side of the road but that is about where the similarities end. Whilst there are some difference between NI and GB in relation to roads, for example the numbering system, number plate format and licencing body (the DVLA doesn't cover NI) the actual rules of the road are UK-wide.

For example aspects that are the same as the rest of the UK but different to the Republic include:

  • Speed limits in mph
  • Road sign designs
  • Road markings
  • Driving test requirements
  • Traffic Laws
  • Road standards & design
  • Road classifications (m-way, A roads, b roads etc)


The government body responsible for roads in NI, the Roads Service, is not a UK-wide authority but since devolution to Scotland and Wales there responsibility for roads is done on a Constituent country basis anyhow.

This is not being proposed from a political position but from a perspective to build a more logical setup here on Wiki. There are as many differences between the roads of NI and the Republic as there are between any two continential European countries but there we seperate articles for each country. At the moment the Roads in the United Kingdom, IMHO stupidly, directs to Great Britain road numbering scheme which is a problems that needs solving ASAP and as part of that there should be inclusion of NI as it is very much part of the UK when it comes to roads and driving. Therefore I propose that this article should be changed to Roads of the Republic of Ireland, which is pretty much what it already is, and information about Northern Ireland merged into a new UK-wide article. --Achmelvic 11:17, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Unless you are going to have a Roads in Northern Ireland article, there is very little point in starting a Roads in the Republic of Ireland article. The country's name is Ireland, but for a variety of reasons (some very contentious) it is currently residing at Republic of Ireland. So given that you end up with a situation where perhaps you don't have information about ALL the roads in Ireland on the page titled Roads in Ireland, which many users (not editors) would find confusing. After all, the users are the most important consideration. One solution might be to radically expand the roads information on the UK page and to place a {{main}} template on this page pointing to it. But given that it is currently a redirect, my guess is that a conscious decision has been taken to separate geographically. Have a delve in the archives, and see if there is anything there. Frelke 12:24, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
Why would there need to be a Roads in Northern Ireland article? Northern Ireland is part of the UK and the similarities when it comes to roads, which I listed above, mean a UK-wide article with sections about the four member countries would be the most logical. After all there aren't seperate Roads in England, Roads in Scotland, Roads in Wales exactly because the similarities are much more numerous than the differences and these difference could be mentioned in a Roads in the United Kingdom article.
My point is that that the information about roads in Northern Ireland should be included with other UK-wide information, not with information about roads in the Republic of Ireland. I think you're getting mixed up about the difference between Ireland (the island which includes two independently government states) and Ireland (the country which is called the Republic of Ireland in all other aspects here on wiki to stop confusion with the afore mentioned). For pre-1922 historical and non-political topics Ireland (the island) is the accepted form, but for current political-based topics Ireland (the country, ie Republic of Ireland) is used.
As roads and their rules, standards, responsibility for them etc are determined by governments the information here should be in two articles as there are two seperate nations involved:
This article as titled Roads in Ireland could then be changed to a simple explaination page of there being two networks and having links to the national articles.
Other political country based topics have articles named as such, for example Taxation in the Republic of Ireland with Northern Ireland covered by the accompanying article Taxation in the United Kingdom, and its a similar arrangement with the road networks and rules, characteristics etc. --Achmelvic 13:14, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
We don't have a Roads in the Republic of France or a Roads in the Federal Republic of Germany articles. So why have a Roads in the Republic of Ireland article. If you go over to the talk page you can join the naming discussions over there. I'm sure they would appreciate another expert view. The bottom line is that if there was an article on the subject of roads in the southern part of Ireland, the correct name would be Roads in Ireland. Now if you want to list the NI roads information on a UK page then feel free to do so. But this article will remain where it is. Frelke 13:52, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
OK as a compromise how about having the setup I proposed above:
BUT with a disambig added that for Northern Ireland visit Roads in the United Kingdom and that this article is only about roads in the country/state/jurisdiction south of the border?
Then if a wider consencious is reached about the naming on Wiki of what is now Republic of Ireland it can be dealt with according at some point in the future?
Of course it then needs a Roads in the United Kingdom article writing! :-) --Achmelvic 14:47, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
But that compromises those users who come to a page called Roads in Ireland expecting to find information about ALL the roads in Ireland. The usual wiki way is to use a {{main}} pointing to where most of the data is held whilst keeping the very basics on a page such as this. And don't forget to check all the links. There are 250 links into this article which will need to checked and fixed if they are wrong. But first you need to rename/move the GB article to UK and add in the NI section. There may well be objections over there.

And rest assured, there will be objections here too. (Sarah777 21:37, 21 March 2007 (UTC))

But my point is that unlike many other Irish topics such as Culture, Sport etc which are justifiably covered by ban-Irish articles roads are the products the political system which govern them and like it or not there are two political systems in Ireland which their own completely seperate and independent networks with different:
  • Numbering system
  • Road rules
  • Signs
  • Markings
  • Classifications
  • Taffic Laws
  • Speed limits
  • Measurement systems (km vs miles etc)
  • Licencing systems
  • Tax regimes
  • Development histories
  • Future plans
  • Responsible bodies & gov depts
The road network of Ireland (the island) is not one network and with the one exception of the current A1-M1 crossborder project (which is the first time in history that the two governing bodies have co-operated) there is no more interaction between the two systems any more than there is between any other two European systems. --Achmelvic 09:52, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Request to add map

I added a map. What are we supposed to do with these request boxes? Delete? Wait till the guy who put it there comes back? (Sarah777 20:15, 24 April 2007 (UTC))

Just deleting them is fine, thanks for the map. Kmusser 23:09, 24 April 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Article layout - road classification

Why are there no subsections for National Secondary roads and Regional Roads? They're both under "Other Roads". I'll try to tidy it up a bit, if nobody minds. Ga2re2t 09:57, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Please do! Liked what you did on the R402 (Sarah777 19:50, 5 November 2007 (UTC))
Something you might look at: Regional Roads and National secondary roads have their their own pages - maybe create a new page just about the National Primaries? Anyway, it all needs to be tidied up, I've done a lot on the Regional roads page but have hardly touched the others. (Sarah777 19:55, 5 November 2007 (UTC))
I agree with Sarah about the need for a National primary road article in its own right. It's always seemed odd to me that we have National secondary road and Regional road pages, but any reference to / search for "National primary road" is re-directed here. IMV the existing article should deal with the generalities of road classification, with the particulars being covered in separate articles for each class of road. -- Picapica 10:35, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
Okay, I added "main article" links at the begining of each road class section (primary, secondary and regional). I therefore had to create the article National primary road. For the moment I've only copied from the Roads in Ireland article. I'll let the rest of you Wikipedians take up the relay ;-) Ga2re2t 13:52, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
Well, I added a tag to the talkpage - that's a start! (Sarah777 21:46, 13 November 2007 (UTC))
Well done, the two of you! -- Picapica (talk) 20:06, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Original research: list of national primary road dual carriageways where the redesignation would be feasible.

The table below is pure speculation. It belongs on the talk page, not the main article. I have removed it from there and transferred it here. See WP:NOR --Red King 15:05, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Below is a list of national primary road dual carriageways where the redesignation would be feasible.

Route Section Potential Handicaps Viable Solution
N2 17km N2 Finglas - Ashbourne High Quality Dual Carriageway Scheme There would be no alternative access to the M50/N2 Interchange on current route if it was redesignated motorway in its entirety. Redesignate the scheme as the M2 Motorway from Rath, North of Ashbourne to a point 1.45km north of the M50/N2 interchange and leave remainder as the N2. This would allow access and egress to the alternative R135 (old N2) at Coldwinters and 320m south of Kilshane Cross and therefore allow 15.5km of the 17km scheme to be redesignated motorway.
N1 North of Dundalk to border with Northern Ireland Requires the co-operation of the Northern Ireland government. There may be problems identifying an alternate route for non-motorway traffic particularly along the section that lies within NI. Complete parallel road to good standard. Secure commitment from NI to legally redesignate their section of the road at the same time as the section in the Republic is changed.
N6 Entire route from Kinnegad to Galway The N6 Athlone bypass is an older scheme which was built to a slightly lower standard. This may require upgrade. Upgrade N6 Athlone bypass.
N7 Limerick to Mountrath at terminus of current M7 motorway, including Limerick Ring Road. None N/A
N8 Urlingford-Fermoy and Watergrasshill-Cork The Watergrasshill-Glanmire-Dunkettle Interchange section of the N8 consists of older schemes where there is not total control of access. Also curvature of the road is quite significant. Redesign access/entrance to the N8 along Watergrasshill-Cork section. Reduce speed limit to 100 km/h to preserve safety due to bends.
N9 Kilcullen-Waterford Section inside new N25 Waterford bypass has at-grade roundabouts. Remove roundabouts or exclude this short section from designation.
N11 Rathnew-Gorey There are speed restrictions and private accesses from the curent end of the M11 at Fassaroe through to the start of the Newtown bypass. There is no parallel road between Newtown and Ashford. The section between Rathnew and Arklow is single carriageway. The recently opened Gorey bypass is joined to the Arklow Bypass via a seamless changeover, but the new section bypassing Gorey is not up to Motorway standard. Major work required and parallel roads along the entire route (including the Glen of the Downs - try that!!). And the brand new Gorey bypass would need to be realigned and upgraded which is not likely to happen within the next 20 years
N18 Limerick-Galway Section from Limerick to N19 Shannon junction is below spec, featuring frontage access, median breaks and incomplete junctions. Upgrade this section. Close median, reconstruct and/or add junctions, provide parallel service road. (Note: This route has not been included in the current round of redesignations.)

Please follow the format above and add other routes you are familiar with which are likely to be redesignated as Motorway (e.g N6,N7,N11 etc) given the enactment of the Roads Act 2007

[edit] Lists / Northern Ireland

For the UK roads we now have lists of roads to cover them off and keep them out of the articles. Should we be looking to do something similar here? Also there is overlap between this article and Roads in the United Kingdom. Whatever I put in there I am also adding here. There is not enough info for a separate Roads in Northern Ireland yet I don't believe. Regan123 (talk) 19:03, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Well, a separate "Roads in NI" article might help it develop as our NI editors don't seem that interested in writing "Roads" articles as things stand. Probably should be considered - ask User:Ardfern who might have some thoughts on the best way forward. Regarding "we now have lists of roads to cover them off and keep them out of the articles" - you wha?!! Don't understand that! Regards Sarah777 (talk) 00:46, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
Hi, just to clarify my point re lists. For Great Britain we have A roads in Zone 1 of the Great Britain numbering scheme etc. and in NI the List of A roads in Northern Ireland. Should we do the same for the N and R roads? Regan123 (talk) 13:39, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
Roads in Ireland (Rep) don't seem to follow zoning rules; especially N roads. While R roads are roughly zoned there are a lot of exceptions. (Sarah777 (talk) 23:12, 1 January 2008 (UTC))
OK, but could we not just create List of National Primary Roads and the same for R roads? It would get them off this article which could become more of a general overview. It could them become something more like Roads in the United Kingdom? Regan123 (talk) 23:19, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
This certainly needs a tidy up I agree. Check Roads in Ireland and regional road. All N roads (there are only about 90) and all R roads with an article are listed. Any thoughts? While there are about 1,000 R roads some are spectacularly unnotable! (Sarah777 (talk) 02:36, 2 January 2008 (UTC))
I've had a look. I think the article would work much better if we separated them into a list. With the UK B roads there was a centralised discussion that said place them in a list and unless extremely notable should not have a separate article. AIUI R roads sit somewhere between non primary A roads and B roads (looking at it from a UK perspective). We could apply the same general principle, so add the rest but don't create articles unless we should. There has to be so much more to say about the history (eg. turnpikes), legal aspects of roads, tolls, metrification and so on. With your knowledge on the subject this could easily be a GA or even FA. I'll do what I can to help but the UK article (and sub articles) are more primary focus at the moment.Regan123 (talk) 18:29, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
An important point is that roads in Ireland are not pure "routes" in quite the same way as in the UK. Whereas an A-road may be a primary route, drop to a regional road, and back up; in Ireland "R" defines the road; it is always more important than a local road and less important than an N-route. Hence when a motorway is built the N-road replaced looses it's "N" ranking and becomes an R road. Have a shot at fixing this but don't delete the existing R articles! They are the connections to a whole web of geographical articles. Having said that maybe only a third of them will ever merit an article of their own; as you say they are somewhere between a typical British A and B route. (Sarah777 (talk) 22:42, 2 January 2008 (UTC))
OK. I'll do something in a sandbox and then let you know. Unlikely to be in the next couple of days as I am feeling rather unwell at the moment. When I've done it, we can see what/if anything needs tweaking. I won't be removing any info from WP, merely adding to it. Regan123 (talk) 17:15, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Lucan bypass

The widened Lucan/Palmerstown bypass will not be motorway - several problems with it not least of which are the direct accesses for the Hermitage golf club, Texaco/Foxhunter, Spa Hotel, McCoys and even a couple of private houses. Some, but not all of these, will be taken out by access roads even then the access roads will go nowhere except the N4. Even after widening the speed limit will still only be 80km/h. The old road is subsumed between Leixlip and Lucan - the only alternative route would be rather windy R120 and R149. Rdd (talk) 19:05, 30 May 2008 (UTC)