Talk:River Valley Ranch/Archive 1

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Archive This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Please somebody give me a reason for this article to be deleted. I have revised it to make everyone happy. Maybe it needs expanding, but so do many other 'stubs' on Wikipedia. <sarcasm>Of course I can easily rule out that somebody wants it deleted because it is a Christian organization... I mean nobody here is biased, so that thought is out the door</sarcasm>

I got a message from User:Tommajor, the creator of the article, on my talk page asking me to explain my recent edit to the article. Before my edit, it looked like this:

As young boys growing up in a suburb of Glasgow, Scotland, Peter and John had always been fascinated by American cowboys. They dreamed of going to America and seeing cowboys for themselves. In the spring of 1930, these teenage boys got that opportunity as they sailed into Ellis Island and eventually settled on the East Coast.
Having been raised in a Christian family, Peter and John were taught to love God and to spread the Good News about Jesus Christ. This inspired them both to become ministers, and in 1948 they began a Christian radio program in Baltimore, Maryland.
With a passion to reach youth, Peter and John would soon realize their longtime ministry vision of a Christian youth camp... nothing like this existed anywhere in the area!
In 1952, a real estate agent suggested they look at a property in Carroll County, Maryland. As they drove into the beautiful lush valley with the Gunpowder Falls River flowing through it and the little pre-civil war town of Roller in the center, they immediately knew this was the place. It was purchased with $100 down payment... and River Valley Ranch was born!

I tried to rewrite it in a NPOV fashion. "Peter and John" (who, if named in the article really should have surnames) "had always been fascinated by American cowboys" I was not able to verify. A lot of the other history also is difficult to verify. "With a passion to reach youth, Peter and John would soon realize their longtime ministry vision of a Christian youth camp... nothing like this existed anywhere in the area!" is difficult to verify and POV ("nothing like this" is POV. That they did it out of passion is also POV, it could be because they wanted to enrich themselves, who knows.). If they should be included, they must be phrased in an NPOV way. I understand that you want the article to sound interesting, but saying that they "were taught to love God and to spread the Good News about Jesus Christ" without using an attributed quote is _highly_ POV.

I hope you understand, Tom. I'm sure we can find a way to all be happy with the article. You say that you can't understand why your articles are deleted so often. I want to suggest that it is caused mainly by your style of writing. I think you can increase your efficiency on Wikipedia (deleted articles is not efficient) by studying the Wikipedia:Neutral point of view text. It contains a lot of tips on how to write in a neutral way. — David Remahl 22:23, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Yeah I guess, but I think Wikipedia editors, including myself should be more careful as far as what they make neutral. Sometimes it seems as though some articles are not made neutral, but give a opposite idea which is indirectly negative toward people involved.
For example, "River Valley Ranch aims to provide an exciting and life-changing camp experience, and claims to have done so for to hundreds of thousands of young people from all over America." The reason I said it had impacted thousands of people's lives was because is has. Although the edit seems to play that down. I have personally been a part of this camp. Around 3-4 thousand people come per summer, plus the winter season. Multiply all that by around 50 years...

I am sure the camp has been a great experience for lots of people, but without referencing a neutral survey where lots of children state that they had their lives changed or quoting some particular individual saying the same thing, we really can't include it.

Also, there are certain words, that have negative connotations, that make it sound like it is playing down certain things. I would suggest not using words that have such negative connotations when used in certain ways... For example. "they chose to become ministers and try to propagate the christian faith."
How about "they chose to become ministers and spread the gospel to young people"
Same meaning, not negative. They're weren't "trying", they were doing.

Yes, I think that statement is fine. However, "try" and "propagate" are not negative words. They're neutral. I understand that you, a Christian, personally affected by these people, may want the article to stay sympathetic to their cause and so on. I, on the other hand, want to avoid making the text either unsympathetic or sympathetic.
The NPOV policy is not just another policy, it is the overriding policy on Wikipedia. We can't "be careful as far as what [we] make neutral", because everything must be NPOV. — David Remahl 22:53, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)