Talk:River Oaks, Houston, Texas

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 River Oaks, Houston, Texas is currently a good article nominee. Anyone who has not contributed significantly to this article may review it according to the good article criteria to decide whether or not to list it as a good article, as outlined on the nominations page.

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Date: 05:34, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
River Oaks, Houston, Texas was a Geography and places good article nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There are suggestions below for improving the article. Once these are addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.

Reviewed version: June 1, 2008
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Contents

[edit] Master Planned Community

Hi, User:RJN. Thanks for your contributions & cleanup of the article lately! However, could you please explain your insistance on putting the term "master-planned community" in this article? I was sort of surprised to see you just revert my change rather than discuss it here. I have agreed that although it was "planned," the term has been redefined in modern history (specifically, master-planned) to mean something significantly different. Accordinglly, the inclusion of that term in this article actually creates confusion and a misconception whereas removing it would not detract from the accuracy of the article. Dbchip 22:06, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] ROPS

I grew up in River Oaks, and the term "ROPS" was never used to describe the River Oaks Patrol. "ROPO" was used consistently. However, an older generation may have used the term "ROPS" before my time. Can anyone explain where and when they heard the term "ROPS" used?

I first heard ROPS in 2002 or 2003 and it's largely slang or a joke, but it definitely is used. Dbchip 23:13, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Also, the River Oaks Patrol is referred to in the article as a police department. This I am almost sure is not exactly true.

That's a good point -- I don't really know the technicalities of what defines a police department vs a security force, but I really don't think ROPO has a police department in the sense that I don't think they have arrest privileges or carry weapons. However, they take their job pretty seriously and are quite rigorous; it might be appropriate to remove the term "police department" but try to explain that they department is more than rent-a-cops or a neighborhood watch program. Dbchip 23:13, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

River Oaks Patrol is definitely not a police department. It is not listed on the Texas Commission on Law Enforcement Officer Standards and Education website as a law enforcement agency (TCLEOSE governs law enforcement in Texas). See http://www.tcleose.state.tx.us/Public%20Notice/all%20active%20depts.pdf.

River Oaks Patrol is listed on the Texas DPS Private Security Board website as a guard and alarm company. See http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/psb/company/company_details.aspx?id=C01276.

[edit] GA

Although Somno has already indicated his intention to review this article, I will offer some comments. Unfortunately, this article is a long way from meeting the Good Article criteria. At this point, I would classify it as Start-class. The lead section is too short, the article order is all over the place, and doesn't comply with guidelines for city articles. Most sections have very little text, indicating serious problems with the completeness criterion. I see a couple of external links within the article text, which should only be found in 'external links'.

I would strongly encourage editors to take a look at the WikiProject Cities' guideline for US cities. Also, take a look at WP:LEAD for help on writing a good lead section that offers an adequate summary of the article. Part of the lead issues could be addressed by simply eliminating the 'overview' section header, and moving that up to lead (simple wikification).

At present, this article is little more than a listing of trivial bits of information on the community, and not a GA. Dr. Cash (talk) 19:46, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

  • I decided to add demographics information, and I'll see how to integrate that silly overview section. WhisperToMe (talk) 00:42, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
I agree that the article does not meet GA status at this time, but I still want to give it a detailed review to help the editor(s) along. (Also, it'd be her intention to review, not his :) Just as a heads up, WhisperToMe, much of the stuff I'll suggest will be the same as what I suggested for Gulfton. Somno (talk) 00:59, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
Thank you very much, Dr. Cash and Somno :) WhisperToMe (talk) 02:05, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
I made a few changes, hopefully for a better chance at GA. Thanks, Postoak (talk) 07:44, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

There is also a history section at http://www.ropo.org/neighbor.html WhisperToMe (talk) 15:18, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] GA review

Sorry for the delay in posting the review. My suggestions are below. I believe there are many issues to address before the article meets GA criteria, and it's going to be a tough ask to do that in one week. However, since the article has come a long way already, I think there's no harm in placing the article on hold for a week so you can make the changes suggested below and by Dr Cash. If you don't meet the deadline, that's OK, the article will fail but you can renominate it when you've improved it further. Good work so far.

Lead

  • The lead sure has improved since I first looked at the article!
  • "River Oaks is in proximity to" - I would change this to "River Oaks is close to".
  • Shouldn't have references in the middle of a sentence - all should be after punctuation. You could either put a comma after 1923 in the last sentence or move the references to the end.
  • An infobox would be a nice touch, maybe Template:Infobox Settlement?
  • When you have addressed the suggestions below, you should come back to the lead and rewrite it to summarise the article, per WP:LEAD.

History

  • "in the following year Hogg established" - which Hogg?
  • "in order to augment the development" could be replaced with "to support the development" or something similar, just to shorten and clarify?
  • "William, Michael, and their sister Ima Hogg oversaw the construction of a stately southern-style home, Bayou Bend, on a 14-acre plot sitting high above Buffalo Bayou on Lazy Lane." is a very long sentence.
  • "The developers took care to enhance the many parks and esplanades" is directly copied from the source - reword everything unless it's a quote. Same for "cohesive whole" in the next sentence.
  • "River Oaks became a model for community planning" - a model for whom?
  • "Deed restrictions at the time prohibited home prices in the community of less than $7,000 and required control in architecture," could perhaps be "Deed conditions restricted home prices to over $7,000 and specified architectural styles." or something similar?
  • "usually peaceful community" - no citation for "usually peaceful", so how about just saying it "was the site of..."
  • "Doris Angleton. [12]" - remove space before citation.
  • Should include some more information about the growth and development of the community, as there is nothing mentioned after the 1920s except for the murders and Enron connection. I don't mean demographic information, more like the community experienced a growth period in the 1960s because more land was made available etc (I just made that up, but that's the sort of info I mean).

Geography

  • You have mentioned the exact location of River Oaks in the lead, but it's not mentioned elsewhere in the article. Add a Geography section where you can expand on this information and possibly move some of the detail from the lead.
  • I would also like to know more about the architecture. When were restrictions lifted? What does the community look like now - what sort of buildings and style of homes does it contain?

Demographics

  • "The Houston Super Neighborhood #23 Afton Oaks/River Oaks" - what is this? Could you say "River Oaks is included in the Houston Super etc, which is..."?
  • This section doesn't flow very well and information is missing. For example, average ages, income, family structure, religion, and trends and changes over time. How does River Oaks compare to the rest of Houston?
  • In my experience, demographics are usually presented as percentages, not exact numbers.

Schools and public libraries

  • Split these two topics - schools should be in an Education section and the library information incorporated into another section such as Infrastructure. Correction: Library information should be included in the education section, per WP:USCITY. Dr. Cash (talk) 15:44, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
  • I don't think you need subsections for public and private schools, just separate paragraphs. Put the gallery at the end of the section.
  • You have citations in the middle of sentences here - move to end or after punctuation.
  • "There is a joke in the River Oaks community that states that River Oaks Boulevard is the only street with a country club at both ends." - is this notable enough for an encylopedia?
  • "Between 1986 and 1996, River Oaks Elementary School only admitted magnet school students, and River Oaks itself was divided between the attendance zones of Wilson Elementary School and Will Rogers Elementary School, the latter of which closed in Spring 2006. [23]" - please explain what "magnet" school students are, sentence doesn't flow well, "spring" should be in lowercase, remove space before reference.
  • What is a neighborhood program, and why did parents want it back?
  • Can the private schools section be represented in prose?
  • Any colleges or universities?

Media

  • Should be "area's regional newspaper?
  • "Bellaire/West U/River Oaks/Meyerland local section" - what is this? A specific section of the Houston Chronicle that covers local issues?
  • Any other types of local media? I assume its radio and TV stations are all the same as Houston's.

Infrastructure and government

  • Infrastructure should include info about transportation.
  • "River Oaks has one of the lowest crime rates in Houston." would be good further up where you've said the community is usually peaceful.

Businesses and organizations

  • Is not a typical section for an article. I suggest moving the shopping center stuff into an Economy section and expanding on it being one of the nation's first auto-oriented retail centers (and what exactly that means). Economy can also include major industries or companies, and average incomes and rates of employment.
  • The rest of this section belongs in a new section called Arts and culture.

Notable residents

  • Hooray, they all have sources! :)

Parks and recreation

  • Can move into Arts and culture.

See also

  • Should be before References.

References

  • Need to complete the citations, e.g. many citations don't have a publisher or retrieval and publication dates. Some of the references are a little iffy, e.g. About.com, and the Elite 100 info is from a blog.

Best of luck improving the article further. :) Somno (talk) 08:40, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, I will work on some of the recommendations later this afternoon. Postoak (talk) 16:33, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Also someone could use this http://cdn-530.homes.com/c1/cgi-bin/readimage/107727530 to make a map of the River Oaks area. I know it appeared in the Chronicle, so this should be a reliable source. WhisperToMe (talk) 01:28, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Wish I could make a map like the obe you referenced! Anyway, aome of the recommendations are complete, still some to go. Need help with adding the dates to the refs. I'm not sure about adding an infobox. River Oaks is part of Houston and similar communities within the city don't have an infobox. Postoak (talk) 07:48, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Final review

It's not quite at GA standard yet, unfortunately. The broadness criterion is not met because some information is still missing, and the lead doesn't meet the guidelines. There has been a huge improvement in this article, and at this rate, it'll be a Good Article soon. Please renominate when you feel you've addressed the issues below and great work so far!

Lead

  • The lead still does not summarise the article and needs expansion. For example, it doesn't say how the community was established. It also mentions some info that's not elsewhere in the article, for example, that it's one of the wealthiest zip codes in the country. Refer to WP:LEAD for more info.
Corrected, Postoak (talk) 20:14, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

History

  • This has greatly improved and is a really interesting section. Still quite a jump between post-WWII and the 1970s though.
Wish there were more to add during this period, very quiet. Postoak (talk) 20:14, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Geography

  • Looks good. Can still be expanded, but it is almost GA quality if you add some references for the area size and number of properties. Refer to the WikiProject Cities/Guideline for suggestions of what info to add. A map would be great, but you don't need it for GA status.
done Postoak (talk) 20:14, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Demographics

  • Can definitely do with some more expansion, with the stuff I suggested before like average ages, income, family structure, religion and changes and trends over time. Comparisons with Houston would be good too.
This was revised, Postoak (talk) 20:14, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Culture

  • This could use a rewrite to improve the flow. For example, the Orchestra is located east of the shopping centre, but that's not mentioned until the end. Information-wise, the section is good though.
Resequenced, Postoak (talk) 20:14, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Education

  • Great!

Media

  • Still quite short, but if there's nothing else to say, there's nothing else to say. :)
Nothing specific to RO can I find! Postoak (talk) 20:14, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Infrastructure and government

  • Only thing missing (in my humble opinion anyway!) is that I would like to see voting trends in River Oaks. But that info might only be available for the whole of Houston.

Notable residents

  • I would question the addition of Tillman Fertitta, simply because there's no article, so notability might be an issue.
Actually, he is notable and has his own article. Link fixed Postoak (talk) 20:14, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

References

  • Some still need more info, for example number 31 is simply "Home Page. Retrieved on 23 May 2008." Who's the publisher?
COrrected Postoak (talk) 20:14, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Overall

  • As I said above, you've done a great job so far. I think the article is really interesting and well on its way to GA. I hope that you've found my reviews helpful and that you renominate soon. :) Somno (talk) 04:51, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
Personally, I think the zip code sentence in the lead (which could have been moved to another section and was overlooked) and the one malformed reference is all that prevented this article from being GA. Postoak (talk) 06:44, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
Once you and I make the changes, all we need to do is renominate this :) WhisperToMe (talk) 07:36, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
I already made both changes. The zip code sentence was moved to demographics and the lead was slightly revised. I don't think the demographic section needs expansion, but maybe you can find something to add. There really isn't much additional history to report. The ref was expanded. Culture, well they're all rich and live in mansions. Tilman J. Fertitta is notable. Postoak (talk) 07:50, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
If you haven't already, please take a look at the guideline for US cities as suggested by Derek.cashman above for more information about what to include. Based on the information I've provided about why the article has failed, I'm not sure why you think it's just a matter of the zip code and one reference? The article needs to be broad, and at the moment it's not broad enough. There are also issues with the lead. Both of these are essential requirements for a good article. Best of luck, Somno (talk) 08:08, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
I have looked at the guideline and I'm well aware what it takes to get a city article to be featured status. This is a community/neighborhood within Houston and is almost impossible to develop and expand as if it was a city. The lead was revised so that it summarizes the article. In any event, if someone else wishes to continue the GA process here, then good luck to them. Furthermore, please review the lead and content of Washington Park, Chicago (neighborhood) which I believe is an equivalent neighborhood article to River Oaks and is a good article. There are elements in the lead (median income and residents living below poverty level) of this article nowhere to be found in the body. If you review WP:USCITY and then compare the two articles, you will see the River Oaks article follows the guideline more closely when it comes to the suggested sections. Which article do you think is more broad? Postoak (talk) 08:18, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

BTW, Unless someone can manipulate the US Census site by ZIP code and somehow get information by ZIP code, all we have is the City of Houston statistics. I can compare it to the rest of Houston since the COH also tallied the city as a whole. WhisperToMe (talk) 15:30, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

I guess no response to my concerns above by the reviewer. Anyway, I made a few adjustments and will renominate the article. Postoak (talk) 05:30, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Sorry, hadn't checked this talk page in a couple of days. Definitely agree that it's different to a city article, and the Demographics section has improved with some comparisons made to the whole of Houston. You still need to fix some of the references - I just pointed out number 31 because it was the worst. For example, number 2 has "MSN Money" in the title of the article - it should be in the publisher field. Otherwise, looks good and is close to passing in my humble opinion. Actually, I would pass it, but I won't be the GA reviewer this time so you can get some more feedback from another editor. :) Somno (talk) 14:42, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
OK, I will go back and recheck the references. Thanks for your help, Postoak (talk) 20:21, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
No worries, glad I could be of assistance. You and WhisperToMe have done a great job with this article - crazy how much it's improved since I first looked at it! ;) Somno (talk) 01:58, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Revised references, thanks again! Postoak (talk) 20:14, 7 June 2008 (UTC)