Talk:River Lee (England)

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There is also a Lee in Ireland rroddy 16:29, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Several articles on Ireland link to the wrong River Lee. How is ambiguity resolved?


I would also like to know this could be resolved, also should one river be selected above others? surely there shold be a river lee page, hwere user could chouse which river the want to view [similar to other article with dual [or more meanings] [k]

I agree, it seems rather biased/unfair to assume people want to read about the English river. Stifle (talk) 00:57, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, just make a disambiguation page and another article and add things at the top. Cheesypot 23:29, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] History

Should there be a section of this article about the history of the river lea? Apparently the thames used to join the thames, but there was a landslide at the source or some sort of blockage. which is why in the luton the river is tiny, but there is a load of space the little hills, probably where the river used to be. If anyone knows more information, please add it. Cheesypot 23:29, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] New River / River Lee Navigation

RE fact tag just added - it may be my reading of the para - which suggests a little crafting may be called for - or there may be genuine confusion here. What I see is a suggestion that RLN is now called the New River, which it isn't they're different. On a more general note, it would be most helpful to have more clarity between this article and the RLN page to make it aboslutely clear what the link is bwteen the two. Are the lower reaches properly termed RLN or is that another way of describing it? hjuk (talk) 14:28, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Water for the New River is taken from the upper reaches of the River Lee. The RLN is the canalised section of river below that, where the flow of water needs to be controlled to allow navigation. A further complication is that below Bow Locks, the river splits into the Bow Back rivers. Somewhere around Tottenham, there are other flood channels and water supply channels that may also cause confusion with the NR. My first reading of the para was that it was clear, but I'll see if I can do something to clarify. Kbthompson (talk) 14:34, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
Wow, that was quick! I reread it again and I can see that it does say what it means, but it certianly wasn't clear to me. But maybe I'm thicker than I thought! Also I forgot to say that I followed footnote 4 to the Enfield Council page which doesn't mention the New River; perhaps the page has changed since the footnote was added.
Does the river stop being properly called the River Lee at some point and become RLN or is it 6 of one, half a dozen of the other? hjuk (talk) 14:43, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
They can't even agree the proper name for much of it's length! (Lea, Lee, etc - even Ordnance Survey gets confused). I think the name RLN came into being with the installation of the locks - as barges got bigger, and flow needed to be controlled. It was also to distinguish it from the 'flood channel' and the water supply channels between the King whatever reservoirs in Tottenham. (I'm sure someone will be along to correct me). (River Lee rapid rebuttal unit?) Kbthompson (talk) 14:51, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Suggested move to River Lea

I propose this article should be moved to River Lea, while mentioning in the introduction the variant spelling, Lee Navigation, Parliament, etc. It would recognise the wider occurrence of the name "Lea" (eg. Leamouth, Lea Bridge, Lea Valley), and solve the ambiguity vs. the Irish river. best, Sunil060902 (talk) 10:21, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

As a Hertfordian, I too prefer the Lea spelling, but bear in mind the official park authority for the area is called the "Lee Valley Park Authority" [1]. I think this would have some bearing on it. Jamsta (talk) 10:42, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
Sadly, Lee is the official name - established by Act of Parliament. I believe both names appear on ordinance survey maps - but for different parts of the River. (Lee applies to the canalised parts of the river). Certainly when I was drag'd up, around the lower reaches, we always called it the Lea; and I think that's what the geography teacher called it. So, the original name lives on long after its official excision.
I think we're stuck with the official name, with a redirect from Lea. Particularly as the Lee passes through the Olympic site. Kbthompson (talk) 11:07, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
That said, reviewing some of the Olympic Park material, it now refers to it as the River Lea. I think the status quo should be maintained at the moment, but if this continues, we may need to revisit the naming of this article. Renaming would create about 100 redirects. These need to be dealt with at the same time as any page move. Kbthompson (talk) 12:10, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
Can an Act of Parliament dictate the name of a river (as distinct from the Navigation)? Shades of Académie française! I agree with Sunil060902 that the Lea spelling is more widespread in the real world, Lee generally only used for the Navigation and the Park Authority. However I'm not sure a move solves the ambiguity with Ireland, as the 'official' spelling will still need to be linked as a redirect or whatever. Pterre (talk) 15:36, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
Both 'Lea' and 'Lee' are used for the river - just check any OS-based map or street map, and frequently the river will be referred to as 'River Lea / Lee' or 'River Lee or Lea'. Neither takes precedence over the other as I see it so I don't see any logic in a move for the sake of it when the content will remain exactly as it is at present; reflecting that both names are and have been in current use both legally and socially. --AlisonW (talk) 20:03, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
The OS simply recognises the fact that officialdom says Lee while the rest of us say Lea. Have a good look at the same maps and see if you can find any Lee- place names anywhere between Leagrave and Leamouth. All my serious sources on geography, geology, archaeology etc refer to the Lea Valley, never the Lee Valley - a random example is Jim Lewis's London's Lea Valley, Phillimore 1999, ISBN 1-86077-100-9. There are numerous rivers/streams called Lee. There is only one River Lea. Pterre (talk) 22:12, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
The purpose of Wikipedia is not to be the arbiter on placenames, but as you ask. A quick look shows the "Lee Valley Park" and the "Lee Valley Footpath", for example. The latter follows the course of the "River Lee or Lea" whilst the "Lea Valley Walk" on the opposite (West) side of Hackney Marsh runs alongside the "River Lee Navigation"! Both are in use, and that usage is (quite clearly!) messed up in practice, but that is not a reason to change things here. What about the Lee Valley Athletics Centre, Lee Valley Youth Hostel, and many many more. It is not for us to change usage. --AlisonW (talk) 23:27, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
One additional thing. "officialdom says Lee while the rest of us say Lea" is a straw man. Apart from that being WP:OR it is self-selecting. I live not that far away and regular cross the area visiting friends or or on the North London Line going to Stratford, and I've always used "River Lee" as the primary name. What you use isn't material; what the reference sources say is, and OS use *both*. --AlisonW (talk) 23:29, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
Hey Alison this is a talk page, flippancy is allowed! So you don't use the Lea Valley Lines or pass the former Lea Bridge railway station as you pass through Lea Bridge on your way to Stratford in the Lower Lea Valley then? ;-) I'm not disputing that both spellings are used, and I've already said I don't see much point in moving the article, because the Lee spelling is official in some contexts so would still have to be DABed. The real issue is which is most common, my point being that we should go with that, not with an act of parliament. Note that OS tend (I haven't checked exhaustively) to call it "Lea or Lee", not vice versa. I dare say the decision to use 'Lee' for the park in the late 60s has led to a degree of drift in that direction since. To speculate wildly, the famous Lee-Enfield may have confused matters further - although made on the river, this was named after James Paris Lee. My opinion of common usage (which, as you say, has no more weight than anyone else's) is based on my experience over 40 years or so which includes studying geography and geology at school a couple of miles away (and Uni elsewhere), living in Edmonton and running along the towpath daily, studying and working as a town planner in north London, being a continued member of a local history society whose publications often take in the area, and taking a keen interest in the geography, geology, industrial history of the Lea Valley. Within this context, in my reading of serious references across these fields (one of which I threw in at random simply to note the spelling used in its title), I hardly ever come across the spelling Lee except for the Lee Navigation and the Lee Valley Park Authority (which are defined by acts of parliament) and of course offshoots related to them such as the athletics centre. All long-established place and road names use Lea or Ley, never (but I'm willing to be proved wrong) Lee. Pterre (talk) 18:37, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
For historic interest (go on, prop up those eyelids) and slightly more exhaustively: On older OS maps only "Lea" is used for both the river and navigation. This is true of One Inch 1st Ed, 4th Ed 'Popular', 5th Ed (see St Albans sheet of 1937) and 6th Ed 'New Popular' (Popular and New Popular both available on-line). Also on large scale plans - see for example the Godfrey Edition reprint of the 1:2,500, "Pickett's Lock 1894" sheet. The first use of "Lee" I have spotted so far is my 1964 copy of One Inch 7th Series sheet 161. This consistently uses "River Lea or Lee" and "River Lee Navigation". Coincidentally it is roughly contemporaneous with the Civic Trust conference report on the proposed park. Do I have a point? Not really, just don't rely too heavily on OS maps when it comes to spellings. Oh, p.s. my better half points out a school geography text book (she's a librarian, can't help it poor dear) written by two teachers at her Lea Valley alma mater The Latymer School (Luxon D.G. & Morris J.A., The British Isles in map and diagram, Nelson, 1966), which refers repeatedly and exclusively to the Lea Valley. Pterre (talk) 23:01, 26 April 2008 (UTC)