User talk:Risto Stefov
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This so called article by this so called Risto Stefov, apparently based on historical facts is nothing but absolute rabbish fabricated as propaganda to try and brain wash people.
Simple facts
Ancient Macedonia was a Greek city state. They spoke Greek, and even competed in the Olympic games, which ONLY Greeks were allowed to compete in.
There are no traces of an Ancient Slav language in any artifacts, in Greece or in the 'Macedonian' region.
If 'Macedonia' conquered Greece you should be able to find 'Slav' artifacts in Athens at least. But there are none.
Greece was not created in 1878 by Britain. That is an absolute pathetic lie. Who fought the Turks in Greece for 400 years if Greece did not exist and was created in 1878?
The whole 'article based on historical facts' is nothing but a fabrication. Propaganda, nothing else and its sources and evidence are all laughable at best.
Contents |
[edit] We are not Macedonian - we are Slav people
Quotes Made by the Leaders of F.Y.R.O.M. that Contradict their Efforts "We are Slavs who came to this area in the sixth century ... we are not descendants of the ancient Macedonians." Quote from FYROM'S President Mr. Kiro Gligorov. (from the Foreign Information Service Daily Report, Eastern Europe, February 26, 1992, p. 35.)
"We are Macedonians but we are Slav Macedonians. That's who we are! We have no connection to Alexander the Greek and his Macedonia. The ancient Macedonians no longer exist, they had disappeared from history long time ago. Our ancestors came here in the 5th and 6th century." Quote from FYROM'S President Mr. Kiro Gligorov. (from the Toronto Star newspaper, March 15, 1992) (after these comments, there was a terrorist attack on the ex-president of the F.Y.R.O.M. Kiro Gligorov. It nearly cost him his life) 22 January 1999: FYROM'S Ambassador in Washington, Mrs. Ljubica Acevshka, gave a speech on the present situation in the Balkans. At the end of her speech answering questions Mrs. Acevshka said: "We do not claim to be descendants of Alexander the Great." "Greece is FYROM'S second largest trading partner, and its number one investor. Instead of opting for war, we have chosen the mediation of the United Nations, with talks on the ambassadorial level under Mr. Vance and Mr. Nimitz." In reply to another question about the ethnic origin of the people of FYROM, Ambassador Achevska stated: "we are Slavs and we speak a Slav language."
24 February 1999: In an interview with the Ottawa Citizen, Gyordan Veselinov, FYROM'S Ambassador to Canada, admitted, "We are not related to the northern Greeks who produced leaders like Philip and Alexander the Great. We are a Slav people and our language is closely related to Bulgarian." He also commented "there is some confusion about the identity of the people of this country."
[edit] Christian Turks?
If the Greeks are not pure, the so called "Macedonians" are?
When the Ottomans entered the Balkans and the Aegean, did they just happen to by-pass the Macedonia (region) of FYROM, or should I say South Serbia? and not touch the Slavs?
-Every artifact of Alexander the Great that has been found has Greek writing on it.
-Every city that was founded by Alexander the Great has polis at then end.
-Are you telling me cities like Alexandroupoli, Alexandria, Megalopolis, Heliopolis (ancient), Decapolis, etc are Slavic names?
-Are you telling me names like "Macedonian" are Slavic? Etymology of Name?
-Are you telling me that every documentary on Ancient Greece is a lie, fabricated by Western Scholars?
-Are you telling me that Alexander the Great, was actually called "Alexandrovski of Macandonski"?
If FYROM's case is so legitimate, then get Risto Stefou to stand on the world stage and put his case forward?
If Risto Stefou is so legitamate himself, why doesn't he put "his" credentials forward? Instead Risto Stefou accuses EVERYONE ELSE (Greeks, Serbians, Bulgarians) of making things up, as he brags how he is a historian, yet HAS NEVER, EVER disclosed his credentials. The closest he has ever gotten to a university is York University in Canada, because that's where he works as a Admin. Assistant.
So, why don't you get a new hobby, like the "Histoy of Tito's Yugoslavia"
[edit] Greek Muts - By Stefov
Greece, due to her control of Christian interests inside Macedonia, was granted unrestricted access in and out of Ottoman territory, provided it was for religious purposes only. Since the abolition of the Macedonian Church in 1767 by Ottoman Sultan Mustafa III, having no other choice, Macedonians turned to the Greek Church for prayer. Up until the middle of the 19th century the Greek Church had exclusive rights over Christianity inside the Ottoman Empire.
At that time the Ottoman administration was not yet reformed and functioned poorly at best. There was no statistical information available regarding the composition of nationalities in the region. When the Ottomans took a census they were interested in numbers relating to religious affiliation, mainly consisting of Muslims and Christians, not nationalities.
The lack of proper statistics was opportune for the Greek census takers who quickly took advantage of the situation and cleverly substituted "Greek" for "Christian" in the old Ottoman census.
Substituting "nationality" for "religion" went unchallenged until the Bulgarian Church became involved in Macedonia. Near the end of the 19th century Bulgaria was granted consecration rights and started its own church. The Ottomans sensed the growing power and influence of the Greek Church in the region and decided it was time to give them some competition.
By this time Bulgaria had also staked her claim on Macedonian territory and was headed on a collision course with Greece.
Bulgaria also understood the importance of concealing the Macedonian nationality and she too adapted the method of substituting "Bulgarian" for "Christian".
Even after the unsuccessful Macedonian (Ilinden) rebellion in 1903 against the Ottoman Turk, Greece and Bulgaria made no mention of Macedonians.
Both countries were claiming the same population virtually doubling the numbers overnight. To avoid undue attention and to show proof of claim, both parties initiated campaigns to attract new or convert old parishioners. Macedonians now had a choice of Church, the old conservative Greek Patriarch Church or the new Bulgarian Exarchist Church.
Not to be outdone by Greece and Bulgaria, Serbia, (a little later) also joined in and started operating her own churches in Macedonia. As competition intensified the churches offered free education for children and other perks. As competition further intensified, church agents turned to violence, intimidation and murder to keep up their numbers. Hooligans and mercenaries were hired to intimidate, beat and murder people. Priests who left one church for another, paid with their lives. If you wish to know more about the atrocities committed by Greek authorities during this period read about Karavangeli's exploits in Macedonia (Arheio Makedonikou Agona, Pinelopis Delta, Apomnimoneymata, Germanou Karavaggeli, Georgiou Dikonymou Makri, Panagioti Papatzanetea).
The next turning point takes us to the Balkan conflict of 1912-1913 and Macedonia's partition.
Before 1912 her three suitors had one objective in mind, to divide and conquer. In spite of their bickering over the same territory they managed to agree on how to divide it. Then in 1912 (first Balkan War) plans were put into action and they successfully expelled the Ottomans from all of Macedonia's territory. When it came to dividing Macedonia, however, greed got in the way and war (the 1913 second Balkan War) broke out between them. Greece allied itself with Serbia and fought against Bulgaria.
Things really went out of control when other Balkan Countries became involved, hoping to recover long lost territories. It took superpower intervention to stop the conflict but it didn't help Macedonia.
In August 1913, by the Treaty of Bucharest, Macedonia's partition was sanctioned. Things worsened for Macedonia at the conclusion of World War I on June 28th, 1919 the superpowers at the Paris Peace Conference ratified the 1913 Treaty of Bucharest and with minor territorial adjustments, left Macedonia partitioned to this day.
Macedonia was divided for the first time since the Roman wars. New borders were drawn and secured, leaving villages, families, and friends permanently separated.
As soon as Greece consolidated her control over her share of Macedonia's spoils she initiated ethnic cleansing. Macedonians affiliated with the Exarchist Church were expatriated. Serbia exerted no influence in this region, so there were no Serbians to expatriate. After the purges, the remaining population was forced to take an oath of allegiance to the Greek nation and denounce all others including their own. Those who refused were expatriated.
More populations were expatriated after the war with Turkey (1920's). Besides purging, Greece also exchanged Muslims for Christians in the population exchanges with Turkey. Most of the newcomers were sent to Macedonia and by way of land re-distribution and reforms, were given the lands and homes belonging to the evicted Macedonians. No Macedonian was ever awarded damages for confiscation of property or loss of possessions.
Even Macedonians that fought side by side with the Greeks in Turkey were discriminated against and their assistance was never recognized. The families of Macedonian soldiers who died in combat received no recognition or compensation for their loss.
At the conclusion of the war with Turkey (1920's), Greece initiated new assimilation policies in Macedonia to forcibly Hellenize the Macedonian nation. The policies required that every name be changed to have a "Greek sounding" character. Those with Slavonic sounding names were required to choose or were given new names.
All traces of Cyrillic writing found in public buildings, churches, gravestones, etc., were erased. Macedonian place names were changed. Every village, mountain, lake, stream, river and road was given a Greek name. Laws prohibited use of the Macedonian language. A heavy dose of castor oil was punishment for a child caught speaking Macedonian. A hefty fine (and much worse) was punishment for an adult.
Those who needed to communicate to do their jobs were in real trouble. For some it was safer not to speak than to risk being fined. Even animals (dogs, oxen, horses, donkeys, etc.) had to be re-educated to obey commands in Greek. Older people who could not afford the fines were sent to court and forced to pay. In many cases it meant having to sell their meager assets.
The next turning point was the Greek Civil War (1944 to 1949). In spite of all attempts by Greece to ethnically cleanse, forcibly assimilate, Hellenize, and suppress the Macedonian nation, its Macedonian identity remained alive. During the occupation (World War II), free from Greek oppression, Macedonians began to publicly re-assert their identities. They began to talk, sing and publicly perform plays in Macedonian. Some learned to read and write for the first time using the Cyrillic alphabet.
The Greek Communist Party having influence in the region took advantage of this. They promised the Macedonian people equal rights and recognition of the Macedonian nationality under the Greek nation. This created a division between those who wanted an independent Macedonia and those who wanted partnership with Greece. Greek military forces pushed out, the Partisans who wanted an independent Macedonia, across the Yugoslav border where they joined the Macedonian brigades there. The rest fought side by side with the Greeks.
After the expulsion of Germany and Italy they again fought side-by-side with the Communist Greeks in the Greek Civil War, and lost. No equal rights or recognition of the Macedonian nationality ever materialized. In contrast, the Macedonian contribution for liberating Yugoslavia from the Fascists was rewarded with the creation of the People's Republic of Macedonia. The Macedonian people earned their place in the world by shedding blood. But Greece is still refusing to recognize them, insisting on calling them "Skopians" (a derogatory euphemism for Macedonian).
For their bloodshed in liberating Greece from the Fascists, the Macedonian people were rewarded with more ethnic cleansing.
During the Greek Civil War tens of thousands of refugee children ages four to fourteen were rounded up and evacuated to Eastern Block countries (spring of 1948). Later they were not allowed to return. Greece prepared carefully worded laws to include Greek (by genus only) and exclude Macedonian children from returning.
Then in the fall of 1949 the general population from Macedonia, mainly for the Lerin (Florina) and Kostur (Kastoria) regions, was evacuated as war refugees. Most of those who left the country were not allowed to come back, not even to visit family, attend funerals or light a candle at the graves of their loved ones. Between 1945 and 1949 the Macedonian demographic was so drastically altered that Macedonians became a minority in their native land.
From the Greek Civil War onward many Macedonians originating from Greece have immigrated to countries like Canada, Australia and the USA in search of a better life. Their political standing in Greek society, at home and abroad has hardly changed since Macedonia was occupied in 1912. At home, Macedonians still face discrimination and abuse at the hands of Greek Governments.
If you "feel Macedonian" and attempt to assert your identity, you will encounter discrimination. You may lose your job. Your children may not be able to attend higher education. You will not be promoted in the Greek military.
So far I have presented evidence of acts perpetrated by successive Greek Governments including ethnic cleansing, forced assimilation and systemic discrimination against the Macedonian people. I have also given examples of how Greek Governments time and time again denied the existence of a Macedonian nationality.
I will now attempt to explain how successive Greek Governments committed cultural genocide by manipulating history to deny Macedonians their heritage.
Earlier in this document I mentioned that after her inception, Greece experienced an identity crisis. Her premature liberation from Turkey and lack of unity in her ethnically diverse population threw her into soul-searching chaos.
The problem of ethnicity was not solved by recognizing the existing ethnic diversity of the population or by allowing numbers to determine majorities and minorities. Instead, the Greek nation builders decided to build a new national identity, one that would take advantage of ancient history and lay the foundation for the future.
The modern Greeks were told they were the Hellenes, descended from the ancient Hellenic world and rightful heirs to ancient Hellenic history. At the same time they were told that Greece had many enemies who would try to take their inheritance away from them. Along with pride and fear, xenophobia was instilled into the Greek consciousness. This perhaps explains why Modern Greeks have a mindset and strong feelings not only towards Macedonians but towards Bulgarians and Turks as well.
Scholarly revisionists began to create the modern version of Greek history. To further strengthen her claims of the past, Greece resurrected an old Attican (Athenian) language and used it as the basis for its modern literary language. This language was difficult to learn and used mostly by scholars, the church and legal institutions. Surprisingly it survived for over a century before it was abandoned in favour of the simpler language people use today.
Her popularity in the world assured Greece her liberation and shaped her national identity. Her claims to the past were about to shape her future. Before annexing new territories she made sure history would back her claims. With intense propaganda she prepared her people and with vigour she pursued her exploits. After annexing most of the northern territories unabated, she was ready for Macedonia.
Unlike before, however, her claims to Macedonia did not go unnoticed. As I pointed out earlier, competition for Macedonia grew with intensity that eventually boiled over into full-scale war (wars of 1912 and 1913).
To protect her interests, first, from the Macedonian people and second, from her competitors (Bulgaria and Serbia), Greece came up with ingenious defensive methods. She vigorously fought to censor publications of archeological discoveries and offered her own expert opinions on ancient matters.
To protect her future, she frequently published demographic statistics to debunk the claims of others, always being careful to avoid use of the "M" word for Macedonians. Meanwhile at home, the propaganda machine made sure her population was stayed in line with her policies.
Publications without censorship were (and still are) vigorously protested. Eventually, as many authors and researchers of ancient studies would attest, the "M" word became a dirty word. For a time it was banned from the Greek vocabulary. The Macedonian territory annexed by Greece was re-named "Northern Greece".
Today Greek newspapers (Amfiktyon, Syllogiko Enotiko Organo Symvolis sti diasosy tou Ellinismou, November/December 2001) in their zeal to prove there are no more Macedonians left in Greece, unwittingly have betrayed past acts committed by their Governments against the Macedonian people.
Archeological discoveries did not escape the Greek censor either. Anything disagreeable quickly disappeared. After more than 1400 years of "Slav" (Slavonic Macedonian) presence in the region, not a single bit of "Slav" evidence was reported to be found. There wasn't any because Greece made sure it disappeared the moment it was discovered.
Look at the extreme measures Greece took during the 1920s and 1930's to erase all evidence of Macedonian existence. They changed people's first and last names, geographical toponyms, and banned use of the Macedonian language outright.
What happened to the relics found beneath the shorelines of Lake Prespa (Prespa Island was King Samoil's fortress)?
What happened to the buried treasures and artifacts found from pre 1767 Macedonian churches? They all disappeared. The reason the Ottomans banned the Macedonian Church was because it was a symbol of strength and influence in the old Balkan world.
The Greek Church instigated the ban by spying and reporting on Macedonian activities to the Ottoman Authorities. More recently many old Macedonian churches were razed to the ground and new (Greek) churches were built to cover the ruins. Including the old Church of St. Pantelimon in Lerin (Florina).
What happened to the old Cyrillic gravestones in the village cemeteries? It is estimated that tens of thousands of relics have disappeared in the last century to conceal all evidence that may give credence to a Macedonian presence.
Look at the works of ancient studies and compare the interpretations of Greek versus non-Greek versions. Why is there such a vast difference? Why is Greece striving so hard to tip the scale in her favour when it comes to ancient history?
Why do history books refer to the " Hellenistic civilization" and not the "Macedonian civilization?" What difference does it make anyway? It does to Greece so that she can maintain a firm grip on Macedonia.
Was it not the Macedonian Empire that made the conquests and bridged east and west (dispersion)? Was it not the Macedonian Empire that commissioned the building of many cities like Alexandria of Egypt? Was it not the Macedonian Empire that spread knowledge and civilization to the world? Wasn't it Alexandria and not Athens that became the intellectual capital of the ancient World?
Doesn't Macedonia deserve a bit more mention in the history books or a bit more credit for her past deeds?
So far I have provided arguments to show the extreme measures (cultural genocide) that Greece has taken to safeguard her claims on Macedonia. From misleading her people about their origin, to highjacking ancient history, to concealing artifacts and publishing misleading statistics on nationalities.
Greece and perhaps others thrive and prosper today at the expense of Macedonia and her people. For over a century now Greece has denied the existence of the Macedonian nation, robbing Macedonians of their heritage.
I would like to offer alternatives to some of the more popular beliefs about the origins of Greeks and Macedonians and about the purity of the Greek people.
Who are the Greeks?
The official claim is that modern Greeks are descendents of an ancient tribe of Hellenes that came from the heartland of Europe, traveled through the Balkans and settled by the southern shores of Modern Greece.
By observing behavioral patterns, it is more plausible to assume that the ancient inhabitants of the southern Balkan shoreline came from the south, most likely from the Nile River delta regions. Over population, drought or pressures from invasions may have forced them to migrate. Naturally, being sea-faring people they settled on the shoreline where for many years they lived off the sea and thrived. They loved the sea and as their populations grew they colonized the Mediterranean coastline.
Recent population studies using DNA analysis have put the lie to the Greek identity myth. Scientific evidence now shows that modern Greeks are more closely related to sub-Saharan Africans than to any Mediterranean peoples - including Cretans.
Furthermore, modern Macedonians (who Greeks allege only recently entered the Balkans) are shown to be genetically related to the other Mediterranean populations. Click here to read the abstract.
Are the Ancient Greek and Ancient Macedonian people related?
The Ancient Greeks did not think so. There is ample evidence to prove linguistically and culturally that the Ancient Greeks and Ancient Macedonians were different people. See http://www.macedon.org/anmacs for more information on this.
It has been documented in ancient sources that the Macedonian elite, in addition to speaking the common language (Koine) also spoke another, a uniquely Macedonian language. There are several extant examples of Alexander the Great using this language to give orders to his Macedonian soldiers.
What is the connection between Ancient Macedonians and Slavs?
Greece set out to convince the world that the Macedonians (whom they refer to as the "Slavs") are newcomers to the area and cannot lay claim to any part of ancient Macedonian history. There are very few objective or unbiased students of the Slavs so first let's take a look at what the Greeks have to say.
Greeks claim the "Slavs" originated from the regions near Modern Russia and the Ukraine and migrated southward reaching the Balkans around the sixth and seventh centuries AD. They claim that before settling the land the "Slavs" killed off the local inhabitants (I assume they mean the Ancient Macedonians) then colonized the region.
Most students of Slavonic history tend to agree with the Greek assessment. More recently however, with the independence of the Republic of Macedonia, scholars and researchers have uncovered new evidence to challenge these claims. The first discoveries came from archeological digs where over a hundred and fifty monuments have been found with linguistic evidence showing similarities between modern Slavonic languages and Ancient Balkan languages. In addition, Macedonian students of Homer who have studied the Iliad, have found similarities between the language in the Iliad and today's Macedonian language.
These new discoveries, along with the recent DNA population studies, provide enough evidence to seriously question the veracity of the old claims. They suggest a proto-Slav language was already being used in the Balkans prior to the so-called "Slavonic Invasions" of the sixth century AD. Furthermore, these "Slavs" are genetically related to the other Mediterranean peoples, including the Cretans -- but specifically, not the Greeks.
In a more current vein I want to point out that the poisonous Greek propaganda spewing forth for over a century is not confined to her borders. Greek consulates and embassies work hard at promoting Greek propaganda by giving away thousands of free books, newspapers and magazines and support many academics and lobby groups to influence organizations and Governments worldwide. Their influence is not limited to propaganda alone.
The consulates and embassies are also hard at work keeping tabs on the activities of organizations and people, even their own people. Greek authorities quickly react to any perceived threat on their founding mythology to the point of using violence if necessary.
Many Macedonians who came from Greece and are now living in the Diaspora are afraid to participate in Macedonian events. They will not attend Macedonian festivals, parades, picnics, and dances or even attend Mass at Macedonian Churches for fear of being reported to the Greek authorities who would then punish their relatives back in Greece.
Finally, I hope I have provided you with enough convincing evidence to help you understand the plight of the Macedonian nation and why Macedonians must fight to survive. Giving up the fight with Greece is like committing suicide because Greece will protect her interests at any cost, even our extinction.
I hope I have inspired you to pick up the torch and carry it forward for Macedonia's sake. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 144.139.97.156 (talk) 06:45, 24 December 2006 (UTC).
[edit] Mongrels
Hey Stefov!!, boy can you go on, and on, and on, go on, and on, and on, go on, and on, and on, go on, and on, and on, go on, and on, and on, go on, and on, and on, go on, and on, and on, go on, and on, and on, go on, and on, and on, go on, and on, and on, go on, and on, and on, go on.
If anyone is spreading propaganda it's you and your mongrel friend's, because that is all you are.... mongrels, who lost the Greek Civil War, and were kicked over the boarder into Serbia (Yugoslavia), and then Tito renames Vardar Banovina into "Macedonia" (with the intention of acquiring a port in the Aegean) and all of a sudden you claim to be ancestors of Alexander the Great. You claim that you have a Macedonian language, when in reality it's Bulgarian, or a cross between Serbian and Bulgarian (that's why Serbs, Bulgars and FYROM's can understand one-another), you claim that the so called "traditions" you have, have been copied by Bulgaria, Greece, Serbia, when in fact YOU copied them from everyone else, and you claim that Greece invaded "Macedonia" and occupied it.
If anything.... the so called "Macedonian's" (that don't have a block head), are in fact the Greeks from Greece. They are fighters (DSE Fighters), relatives and children of the Greek Communists.... Greek Communists that lost the Greek Civil War, and were kicked over the boarder (which they rightfully deserved), because the un-greatfull mongrels backstabbed the Greeks, by teaming up with commie Yugoslavs.
There never was a Republic of Macedonia. Greece's northern neighbour before WW2 was Serbia. You have no credentials, and the closest you got to a university is York University (where you work). If there is any credibility to your claims, you would stand up to thee word, and say "Hey!! here is the truth", but instead you hide in some room, pushing rubbish through the internet, tarnishing everyone elses identity, because YOU DON'T HAVE ONE.
You are stuck in the communist Cold War. Guess what?? It's over!! Stop living Tito's dream of a Yugoslavia that includes Thessaloniki. You a are a fraud, a phoney, someone who has managed to brain wash themselves. You are trying to create an identity, by robbing another persons/countires identity (Greeks, Bulgarians, Serbians), and calling it your own.
You say there is no link between modern and ancient Greece. You are saying there is no link between Greeks and the Macedonians, but there is one between today's so called "Macedonians" and the ancient ones? If in fact, there is no link between people, it's between today's so called "Macedonia's" and the ancient ones. They were Greek, and today's inhabitants of FYROM are Slavic.
- Any city founded by Alexander the great has "polis" at the end, not "ovski".
- Any books written about Greece, Greeks, how Alexander the Great united Greece (by conquering it) and spread Hellenism throughout the world, are not false, they are not propaganda. They are credible texts written by Greeks, and WESTERN & EUROPEAN scholars (French, Germans, Jews, English, American's etc).
- Museums in Afghanistan dealing with Alexanders' expeditions, are funded by Greece.
- I don't see any "Macedonians" in Egypt, but I do see many Greeks, with museums and libraries.
- As for empires...Greek Empire/Macedonian Empire, it was all the same because Macedonians are Greek not Slavs. Heck the word Macedonia is a Greek word, not Slavic.
- As for claims that Greeks are sub-Saharan Africans (which where sponsered by FYROM), this claim was dismissed in NATURE|VOL 415|10 JANUARY 2002|p115: We believe that the paper should have been refused for publication on the simple grounds that it lacked scientific merit.
Stefov, FYI, if some claims to be a "Macedonian", they don't loose their job, they are not targeted, they are not persecuted (even in Greece), and this is a fact, more so in western countries than Greece.
Stefov, if Churches were destroyed by the Ottoman's, it's because they were a sign of Christianity not because they were Greek, Serbian, or so called "Macedonian".
Stefov, so called "Macedonian's" are not afraid to attend festivals, and the reason there isn't that many festivals, is not because of fear, but because of a lack of initiative and interest by the public.
Stefov, if anyone is sole searching its' mongrels like you who have nothing better else to do but rob another countries history, culture and identity.
History (and thus archaeology) speaks for it self, and when it speaks, it speaks in Greek, because all the ancient texts and inscriptions were written in Greek and not Makadonski or any other Slavic language.
Philhellenism 05:49, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Propaganda
Risto, regarding the post above, the only reference you bothered showing (and informally I might add) was: "Karavangeli's exploits in Macedonia (Arheio Makedonikou Agona, Pinelopis Delta, Apomnimoneymata, Germanou Karavaggeli, Georgiou Dikonymou Makri, Panagioti Papatzanetea)."
I really would like to take you more seriously but don't you think it is a little hipocritical to be saying that Greece and her embassies are spreading propaganda when you yourself are posting numerous discussions on "Greek lies" and atrocities with inadequate references?
If you say you are a scholar and/or historian then alot more people would take you more seriously if you referenced and substantiated your claims.
A lot of what you said was very interesting but for all I know you made everything up. Don't bother replying to this with a list of books and authors either. I mean if you were to write a talk on the history of Modern FYROM and included half the stuff you mentioned above the lecturer marking it would hand it back to you and ask for proper references.
Furthermore if you were to resubmit the work with a list of references at the end then even that would be inadequate. you need to substatiate each claim with a corresponding reference.
What you have posted above is a perfect example of Propaganda with a capital 'P' and the same applies to others that have posted in a similar style.
I hope I have inspired you to desist further damaging this great Macedonian cause that you stand for.
[edit] Risto Exposed#1
Here is an extract from Risto's BIG Greek Lie # 19, paragrapgh 6:
I have been accused (by Greeks of course) of "fabricating information", "not including sources", "telling lies", "speculating", "providing no conclusions", "not making footnotes", etc., etc., so for this article I will do my best not to fabricate information, include sources and refrain from doing all those things. In fact, in this article I will go one step further and provide you with direct quotes from Western authors.
Do you notice it? Third line?
.....so for this article I will do my best not to fabricate information
Philhellenism 22:50, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Risto Exposed#2
Please visit: Author:Risto Stefov
This just goes to prove that Risto stands for propaganda and nothing else.
Philhellenism 04:59, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Explain This
The Department has noted with considerable apprehension increasing propaganda rumors and semi-official statements in favor of an autonomous Macedonia emanating from Bulgaria, but also from Yugoslav partisan and other sources with the implication that Greek territory would be included in the projected State. This Government considers talk of "Macedonian Nation", "Macedonian Fatherland", or "Macedonian National Consciousness" to be unjustified demagoguery representing no ethnic or political reality, and sees in its present revival a possible cloak for aggressive intentions against Greece.
Secretary of State E. Stettinius on December 26th 1944
Philhellenism 02:24, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Recent Edit
Reason for the RV was the user had copied and posted a 3 1/2 year old article from the Guardian Unlimited.
Φilhellenism 12:11, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
Risto Stefov has a facebook account.
[edit] Risto Exposed#3
Here is an extract from Risto's Receovering Macedonia # 20 opening sentance of paragrapgh 3, and last two lines of the article:
On August 2, 1944, in the monastery Prohor Pchinski, the Macedonians in the Serbian annexed part of Macedonia made a decision to set up a Macedonian republic, and
The young Macedonian state survived....
Hang on..... "set up a Macedonian republic"???? "young nation"???? please exaplain!
Φilhellenism 11:25, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Canadian Point of View
My parents were born in the Aegean Macedonian village of Bouf. They came to Canada because of the torment by the Greek authorities. My parents have told me about their experiences growing up. They would get hit with a wooden ruler on the hands in school, and were forced to drink castor oil if they spoke Macedonian. I think the important issue is NOT ethnicity, but rather the unethical treatment of the Macedonian minority in northern Greece. That is why so many Macedonians emigrated in flocks during the 20th century. Greece had no tolerance for the newly-acquired Macedonian population, and ran a terrible, nationalist campaign of conformity. Greeks and Macedonians will always bicker about the name issue. The word "Macedonian" represents the slavic speaking people, to the eyes of the modern world. I am Canadian, but I also speak Macedonian. My parents didn't teach me Greek. I was brought up in a home where Macedonian was the mother tongue. I refuse to utter any Greek words because it represents to me, the suffering of my Macedonian descendants.
BTW, The human race was spawned in Africa. So we are all descendants of black people. The human race spread throughout the globe and our facial features and skin colour were changed by the geographic and climactic conditions. eg: Scandinavians are pale because of the arctic climate.
[edit] Bouf?
What is Bouf?? Can you provide some information about this village, because it seams like Bouf is something you smoke.
To begin, of course Macedonians were treated badly, it seems the whole world is against them... the Serbs, Bulgars, Greeks, Albanians, etc, etc, etc. That's all their good for.... pointing the finger at everyone else and crying murder, because they want sympathy to legitamise their pointless cause.
To continue, what is this Macedonian minority you speak of in Greece? If you mean Macedonians are Greek, they are not a minority instead they are all over northern Greece, but if you are refereeing to the Slavic speaking ones, well.... they are not Macedonians, they are Serbs or Greeks who speak Bulgarian, and by Greek I mean the ELAS fighters, who back-stabbed Greece during the Greek Civil War, and were thrown over the border into Serbia, because there WAS NO COUNTRY CALLED REPUBLIC of MACEDONIA. Greece's northern neigbour was Serbia. Tito created you, and the language. Your customs have been stolen from everyone else.
Your claim about FYROM's flocking in the 20th century to other countries was for the same reasons why the Greeks and Italians flocked to other countries in the 20th century... Europe had nothing to offer them. No work, no security, no future.
As for the word "Macedonia"... it's a Greek word/name and the whole world knows it. There is nothing "ovski" about that name, you know what else the world knows???? That TITO CREATED FYROM!!!!!
Φilhellenism 01:04, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Bouf!
Bouf is the village where my parents came from. The Greeks changed the name to Akrita after it was occupied and partitioned in 1912-13. You are telling me that the non-slavic Greek population in northern Greece seriously refer to themselves as Macedonians? It's a political agenda. Greece wanted nothing to do with the word Macedonia. They have always resented the "M" word. Greece is scared of potential territorial claims by the Republic of Macedonia. I know you slanderously call them Skopjans, named after the capital city. That's why the northern Greek territory was renamed Macedonia. Before then, it was simply called northern Greece. I know that Greeks and Slavic speaking Macedonians will never get along. I wanted to respectably give my opinion, but without class, you retorted with that smoking remark. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jciguitars (talk • contribs) 07:06, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Bouf #2
Yes, yes... the Greeks changed the names, yes yes.... the Greeks are bad and they forced everyone to assimilate.
Northern Greece doesn't only encompass Macedonia/Makedonia. Specifically, the name Macedonia/Makedonia has been used in Greece for decades and decades.
Further more, Greeks and Skopjians DO GET ALONG, especially in countries like Australia, USA etc.
The only political agenda regarding "Macedonia" was that of Joseph Tito, when he annexed South Serbia and called is the Socialist Republic of Macedonia..... Greece's northern neighbour before WW2 was Serbia, not FYROM.
Regarding Bouf..... where exactly is it?
Φilhellenism 07:41, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Bouf/Akrita
Bouf/Akrita is just outside of Florina. I won't use the Slavic-Macedonian name of Florina because you will obviously be offended. The Hellenistic ideology to me, represents intolerance of anybody different. My parents' upbringing allows me to comment on this matter.
Canada is a place of tolerance, and welcomes diverse ethnicities. There is a strong Slavic-Macedonian community where I live. English & French are the national languages, but there is no persecution for speaking your mother tongue in public. I'm sorry to say that here in Canada, Macedonian represents the Slavic language and the neighbour of Greece. I've said my peace. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jciguitars (talk • contribs) 05:45, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Bouf #3
You can use what ever name you want... we don't care and we never will, because either way if you say you are from Florina you are therefore Greek, and after all Macedonians are Greek.
As for intolerance you are in no position to speak of it conicdering the rubbish FYROM put their own ethnic minorities through. Lets not forget that only 66% of FYROM's claim to be just that... FYROM's, and out of that 66% plenty are realy Greek commies that were thrown over the border after the Greek Civil War, and to add to that, according to page 12-13 of the September 17th 2007 edition of TIME magazine, FYROM isn't that much of a free country.
Regarding tolerance.... well we live in a contry that has over 200 ethnic groups, and be it Greeks, Skopjoians, Turks etc we all get along very nicely.
