Talk:Ride of the Valkyries

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[edit] In German?

How is the Ride of the Valkyries known in German? -- Itai 14:46, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Walkürenritt. I'm not German, but that is what I'm able to find using the German wikipedia and google. --hans 15:11, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Thanks. I've added this to the article. -- Itai 20:44, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)

"Hitler used the song in a Nazi propaganda..." Hitler the film director? :) - 212.30.203.31 19:16, 7 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Wagner's best-known piece?

"Ride of the Valkyries (German Walkürenritt) is probably the best known piece by Richard Wagner."

The best-known piece from the Ring, maybe, but only the second-best of all his works? Surely the Bridal Chorus is his best-known piece? Eroica 15:13, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Flight of the Valkyries

My friend has a Wagner CD and claims the song is Flight of the Valkyries. Is there such a song and is it the same thing? --Phoenix Hacker 22:25, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

  • My CD says "Ride". And that German word cited 11 months ago and subsequently used in the article, Walkürenritt, contains the word Ritt, which means to ride, specifically to ride a horse. "Flight of the Valkyrie" is apparently sometimes used also, since Google finds severl references, but it's the same tune, and "Ride" would appear to be the more correct translation. Wahkeenah 03:49, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

Given the above, does it make sense to mention the alternate translation of the title in the Wikipedia article? I also have always heard this tune referred to as "Flight of the Valkyries," as has my wife.--68.88.195.94 17:23, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

  • Are they riding, or are they flying? Wahkeenah 17:43, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
Neither, the stage direction is:
The Valkyries have ensconced themselves on the rocky peak above the cave: they are in full armour
Remember, Wagner never titled the piece (to see how the piece is presented in the score: http://www.dlib.indiana.edu/variations/scores/bhr9607/large/index.html). If it has a name, it is the Vorspiel (Prelude) to Act III. When used in movies (e.g. The Blues Brothers) it is refered to as 'Ride' when acknowledged in the credits.
Who did the orchestral arrangement? It certainly wasn't Wagner. --Alexs letterbox 08:06, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
My point being that unless they are on a bunch of Pegasuses, they are, if anything, riding, not flying. "Flight" in English, when not meaning actual flying, usually means "retreat". Are they in retreat in this scene? If not, if they are just sitting on their horses and/or standing alongside them, a better title would be, "The Song of the Valkyrie", ja? I'll write to the copyright holder and see if they buy into that. :) Wahkeenah 08:15, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Errors

I fixed a few errors -- this is not an example of an aria, it's almost the opposite since it contains 8 singers trading off lines. Also, Brunnhilde does not appear until 8-9 minutes into Act III, and it's debatable whether "Ride of the Valkyries" can be said to extend to that point.

[edit] Kill The Wabbit

And who can forget that cartoons used classical music to expose the nations children to a bit of culture. Elmer Fudd singing 'Kill the wabbit... kill the wabbit', Bugs Bunny as Barber of Seville... the list goes on...

  • It's cheaper to use public domain music, of course. If Rossini and Wagner had been around, they would have gotten a piece of the action. Wahkeenah 14:53, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cover version

Andy Mackay of Roxy Music does an excellent version of Ride of the Valkyries on his solo album In Search of Eddie Riff.

[edit] Pic

I realize Apocalypse Now is not the ideal source for the front-page pic, but it was currently empty and I couldn't find any classical paintings of the Valkyries. Would appreciate help from any wikipedians who can provide one. Thanks User: Alexs letterbox for fixing my first attempt. Liu Bei 06:49, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Song, very bad to drive to

Do we need to include a small (or whole) section of the song for reference, like oh, the US National Anthem? I have the song as I'm sure many of you do, could it be uploaded?

Also: The British motoring orginization the RAC found the Ride of the Valkyries the worst song to drive to. Is that not important in some way? Gary Jules Mad world was the best.

User:Dfrg.msc Image:DFRG. MSC.jpg 09:34, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

To the first point, there is a link to Gutenberg Audio. To the second, no, it is not important, being an entirely useless piece of information I do not think it is important. --Alexs letterbox 06:18, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Removals

I have removed the following:

== Israel==
The song's philosophy is based on the interpretation that Nietzsche's ubermensch (or overman) is one man rather than an overall call for personal radicalism and reform. Hitler and the Nazi made this same misinterpretation, and for this reason Wagner's music and this song in particular were banned in Israel until late in the twentieth century.
== Safety ==
The British motoring organization, RAC found the Ride of the Valkyries the worst (worst being most dangerous) song to drive to in 2006.[citation needed]

The first is just weird, considering the song mostly contains the nonsensical words "Hojotoho!". The second simply has no place in an encyclopedia. (And the fact tag was not considered). --Alexs letterbox 22:49, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

I've just removed an addition relating to the famous scene in Apocalypse Now. This is already covered in Ride of the Valkyries in popular culture, which I've made rather more prominent on this page.

[edit] Public domain?

Does anyone know for sure if this song is in the public domain? Would it be helpful to add whether or not it is to the entry?

This piece (or even more pedantically: excerpt) was written in the 19th century, and is obviously PD. It would be useless to label every piece written before the 20th century PD. --Alexs letterbox 09:02, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Nazi or Japanese propaganda

The article currently states that "In a Nazi propaganda film[citation needed], as the background to a film displaying German planes in flight.". I've been unable to find any sources for this. However, W. Anthony Sheppard (2001). "An Exotic Enemy: Anti-Japanese Musical Propaganda in World War II Hollywood". Journal of the American Musicological Society 54 (2): 303–357.  (if you have JSTOR, it's available at [1]) states that:

In the 1942 Japanese film celebrating the attack on Pearl Harbor, Hawai Marei Oki Kaisen Kaisen (The War at Sea from Hawaii to Malaya), Wagner's 'Ride of the Valkyries' is heard as the planes release their bombs, prefiguring Apocalypse Now. See Daniels, 'Japanese Domestic Radio and Cinema Propaganda', 1937-1945, 311-12.

I believe the referenced work is part of "Film and Radio Propaganda in World War II". Anyone mind if we switch Nazi to Japanese? It'd be great if anyone had access to first sources so we can reference Daniels directly. -- Woseph 18:34, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Merge

While I favour the idea of an artcle based on Ride of the Valkyries in popular culture there is also a well filled section here so either that entry gets merged in here or the content here gets moved over there. As it stands that would leave this entry a little on the thin side. The bottom line is that something needs doing and the simples thing, for now, would seem to be merging the other entry into here. (Emperor 19:22, 30 November 2006 (UTC))

ROTVIPC is IMO an awful article, full of meaningless and unimportant information. However, one cannot expect great things from an article on a three minute excerpt from a four hour opera, and it does make more sense to include everything under the same banner. --Alexs letterbox 04:49, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
I would favour removing all the popular culture stuff that's here to Ride of the Valkyries in popular culture, putting a link to the latter under a See also heading, and then removing any duplication there. That will reunite the musical examples at the bottom with the actual para about the Ride itself, reduce the number of categories here, and let people put whatever they want in the IPC article. There are plenty of precedents for having a separate popular culture article - see, for example, Beethoven's Fifth Symphony in popular culture and Johannes Brahms in film and popular culture. --GuillaumeTell 16:40, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
I would favour this appraoch - I know from experience of other sections that such "in popular culture" sections tend to work better as a separate entity as they make the editors of the main entry less 'nervous'. Would this leave this entry too small though? Conversely looking at Symphony No. 5 (Beethoven) one could argue that there is a lot of room for expanding this entry and that the IPC material is stiffling it and moving it to its own entry will encourage people to expand it with more information. (Emperor 17:59, 1 December 2006 (UTC))
Well, Beethoven's 5th is a longer and more complex work in four movements. The Ride of the Valkyries, while somewhat longer than the 3 minutes mentioned by Alexs above, doesn't have all that much more to be said about it than there is at present. Maybe a picture of an appropriate excerpt from the score? --GuillaumeTell 22:36, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
The length is as variable as the arranger (indeed, the morning announcer on ABC Classic FM always stops his CD at a different spot when playing this piece). I suppose I would like the popular culture section to be as far removed from the actual music as possible. --Alexs letterbox 02:29, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
In my recordings of Die Walküre, it takes between 7 1/2 minutes and 9 minutes. Anyway, I've now removed all the popular culture stuff to the other article, per WP:BOLD. --GuillaumeTell 15:40, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Klaipeda

I replaced "[...] he describes a series of events near Memel (now Klaipeda, the capital of Lithuania) [...]" with "[...] he describes a series of events near Memel (now Klaipeda, a coastal city of Lithuania) [...]". The capital of Lithuania is Vilnius >^_^<

Charly —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 141.54.164.63 (talk) 21:03, 5 March 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Birth Of A Nation

The fact that someone used this piece, written in 1870, as a film score for a 1915 silent film is highly relevant to an article about that film. It does not, however, have anything interesting or relevant to say about the piece. Neither do the thousands of other instances where it has been used.

"In Popular culture" is not another way of saying "insert everything you know or have ever heard about this topic" - despite what some articles may seem to imply. I've removed it, but I'm happy to abide by a consensus to keep, if there is one. --Stephen Burnett 06:32, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

First off, this is not just one of thousands of instances in which this song was used. The Birth of a Nation is regarded as one of the most important and controversial movie in the history of american cinema, made by the most important american director from the beginning of the XX century.
Also, it's important to mention the context in which that particular song is used - In a battle of white x black. According to the movie itself, "The former enemies of North and South are united again in defense of their Aryan birthright.". The fact that Ride of the Valkyries is used when the "Aryan birthright" needs to be protected gives us an idea on how that particular song was seen by some people in the United States - As the pinnacle of "Aryan music".
So, to contradict your first paragraph, the usage of Ride in the Valkyries in The Birth of a Nation does has a lot of interesting things to say.Evenfiel 12:23, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
I'm sorry I have been a while replying.
OK - I will say right away that you have given a coherent and elegant justification of why this piece, with all of the overtones which it has, was an appropriate choice for that particular film, and why mention of that film is relevant to this article. I am not sympathetic to trivia in music articles, particularly lists of films in which a piece happens to be used as background music; you have gone beyond the level of trivia and provided a good justification of why this piece in particular was an appropriate choice to accompany it.
I am of course happy for it to go back. Rather than just the mention of "Birth Of A Nation" which you originally gave, I think it would be nice if in the article you were to expand upon the reasons which motivated the use of the piece in that particular context, as you have just done here. Many thanks. --Stephen Burnett 07:12, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for your reply. I hope that now the text looks better. Evenfiel 18:35, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
That's excellent. Many thanks. --Stephen Burnett 20:09, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

This issue has come up again in a slightly different way. See User talk:Alexs letterbox#Ride of the Valkyries - Birth of a Nation and User talk:Evenfiel#Ride of the Valkyries - Birth of a Nation. Outside opinions would be appreciated. --Alexs letterbox 05:55, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

I am bemused by this section. The Ride of Valkyries 'is used' by whom for the Birth of A Nation. It's a silent film. There was no official music for it as far as I am aware. The fact that some composer chose to use this in a score for the film has no relevance unless this was specifically linked to the original release of the movie. Paul B (talk) 20:00, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
OK, I've checked and it seems that the original score is being referred to, and I was wrionmg to imply that there was no official score. It's still of mariginal relevance, and citation is needed that the score is used at this point. Paul B (talk) 20:19, 7 January 2008 (UTC)


[edit] Where on earth is carmen sandiego?

If I remember correctly, The theme song to that TV show is a selection from ride of the valkyries with lyrics added.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGufyFt6zQc&feature=related

is this the case, and should it be mentioned? --72.196.0.51 (talk) 08:57, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

It would be better on the article about the show. People there may want to know what the theme is. I don't see why people here would be particularly interested in what theme is used by something I've not even heard of.--Peter cohen (talk) 16:16, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Well, there is an 'in popular culture' section. --72.196.0.51 (talk) 18:34, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

In popular culture sections are contentious at best and are normally just a collection of all the useless bits of information that couldn't find a place in the rest of the article. In this case I have heard of the TV show, and I personally would not consider it an important use of the music. Regards --Alexs letterbox (talk) 00:15, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
  • I don't really see why it shouldn't be added into the pop culture section.Metallurgist (talk) 06:59, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Musical Motif

Could the following idea be included? "The Valkyries ride around on horses, leaping great distances from cloud to cloud - it is this leaping that the music depicts" Lawrence18uk (talk) 21:36, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

It would need a quote from Wagner to justify this.--Peter cohen (talk) 22:13, 2 February 2008 (UTC)