Talk:Riddick

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If someonw could insert a picture of RIddick, it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, --PunkRock911 16:20, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

This article is not nearly nuetral enough; it's talking about how Riddick didn't REALLY intend to elave the survivors behind and how he's not REALLY a psyhopathic killer and such. In Pitch Black it is stated that Riddick is a homicidal serial killer.~~

Contents

[edit] Sci-Fi Channel Special

There was a one-shot Sci-Fi Channel Special shown just prior to the release of Pitch Black the Movie. It stated that weeks prior to Riddick's escape he drew a picture detailing the locations of four bodies that were discovered after his escape. It is suggested that either Riddick is some sort of pre-cognizant or that he is just that skilled in the studying of routines and behavior. No one in the article or the discussion has mentioned the Sci-Fi channel special which provided much additional information which may or may not be canonical. 70.137.143.101 00:06, 27 December 2006 (UTC)Zodiak

Yeah, but I'm not sure you can call it precognitive; the introduction level in the very beginning of Butcher Bay shows this: Riddick "dreams" of killing Johns and then escaping through the sewers to another location, all under the cover of night. But when he wakes and they land at Butcher Bay, we realize this does not happen; it's not even night. Also, he deduces almost exactly what happens in the fight between the mercs and prison guards in one of the scenes of The Chronicles of Riddick just by examining the room where it took place. I don't think he's precognitive; I think, like you said, he's just skilled "like that," as they say. BishopTutu 00:31, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

yeah i like how riddick describes in detail how the gunfight between the mercs and the russians have gone,the trajectories, empty sell casings, bullet trails, his mind is extremely analytical 83.130.126.141 13:40, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Try not to post idle banter on the Wikipedia talk pages. I don't mean to sound uptight or anything, but, like the talk header states, this is not a forum. BishopTutu 18:37, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

what? what did i did wrong now i don't understand i wasn't attacking anyone here what the hell!!83.130.57.218 22:57, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

I didn't say you were, but you have to understand: Wikipedia isn't a place just to discuss the subject of the article. If you're going to post a message in a talk page, let it be about a specific piece of info rather than just saying "how cool" the subject of the article is. BishopTutu 05:09, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

well.....i did said that his mind is extremely analytical 83.130.14.14 10:31, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

i obey only one rule "tho shall not attack another user"84.229.195.136 13:17, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "The" Riddick

I find it pretty interesting that the Quasi-Dead in TCoR called Riddick "The Riddick," as if it were some sort of title....Hmmm, maybe there is more to his name than we thought. If someone with knowledge of Dark Fury and the novelization shed some light on this, if all possible. BishopTutu 01:21, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure it's simply because the Quasi-Deads are terrible with proper nouns. --Koji 08:10, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
No, they use names in the proper tense; they say someone's name in the normal sense, but I can't recall who. That's the main reason why I brought it up. Even then, in the Director's Cut, the Purifier even refers to him as "the Riddick," although it's still debatable whether DC exclusive info is considered canonical. I realize now that it may not necessarily be a title, but, rather, a famous Furyan bloodline, or something to that effect. BishopTutu 08:21, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
actualy i think it comes from the profecy about the furyan child that would kill the court marshal and take over but i could be wrong I will look into it and if im right ill add it to the article —Preceding unsigned comment added by T man1993 (talk • contribs) 19:34, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Energy Attack

First off, we can't even consider Shirah's "unlocking" scene to be canonical since it was only in the director's cut; the only true, verifiable incident of the "energy attack" is in Butcher Bay, in which Shirah doesn't touch him at all. Though she does talk to him, she never touches him like she does in the "unlocking" scene; for all we can gather, Riddick does this seemingly completely on his own, without Shirah's "unlocking." Even more so, Riddick (after doing the attack) simply tells Abbott, the only surviving victim, "see? Look at what you made me do," simply brushing off the incident. If you wish to get even deeper, because Riddick simply brushes it off, we could possibly infer that Riddick could have done this before, at least accidentally. In the end, we can't use the director's cut as a verifiable source (at least on this subject) until further notice (that is, if the next film uses director's cut-exclusive information). BishopTutu 03:53, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Riddick's Origin

(riddick him self was a merc once...) Riddick was an elite Company Ranger assigned to Sigma Galaxy's planet where all vital resources are guarded by native nasty-butt aliens with motion-sensors instead of eyes, It was Riddick and three other guys' job to "sweep" the tunnels of the "Spitfire" aliens (that's what they called them)playing like a live bait, so the others can ambush them. Riddick was promoted to the prestigious Strikeforce Academy on Sigma 3's moon, where he learned all there was to know about deadly combat.(college of professionaly trained-killers) when he was assigned to enforce security on Sigma 3 Riddick finally discovered that this Company was running a crooked game everywhere it operated. He found that it was basically amoral slavery, torture, and bloodthirsy murder, so he spoke out against it, but instead of changing the system from an inhumane, crooked organization they put him in the prison ("Deep Storage" as the book puts it) as if he were a criminal. He was wronged! Wronged by a big government (so to speak)! But he escaped before 3 years were up. He overpowered a guard (sounds like Riddick alright, lol) took his uniform and "slipped free." He had to shoot two guards and a pilot. He "took off with the prison planet's only space freighter. The Company promply put a million-credit contract on his head" Now a "cosmic outcast" he had every merc "in the space lanes" after him. Riddick took them out one after the other and they tallied them up as his "serial killings." Johns had been the smart one. He blasted two children to get his attention and threatened to do two more unless he surrendered. 83.130.125.81 15:14, 23 December 2006 UTC

We can't use this information for Wikipedia; if it's not in any other verifiable source, then we cant use it. That's what happened to the "Necromonger Way" article: though most of it was true, because it was only in the novel, we couldn't use it. BishopTutu 18:45, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

what i need to do then?84.228.11.96 14:51, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

If you can find in another outside source, one that we can use as a reference, then you can use it. In the meantime, we can't. BishopTutu 16:50, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

what i wrote from above is from the novel, which tells about his starship trooper-like life and trainning, there is a animated comic "slamcity" depicting how he aquired his upgrade for eyes unfortunately this was retconed with the whole chronicles expansion (specificaly the "Butcher bay" game where his arrival and escape is much more difficult and different also the eye "upgrade" being partly "shira's mystical gift" in nature) 84.228.11.96 19:52, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Like I said, you have to have an outside source that we can reference. All of that information is in the same boat with the novel info: if it's not in an outside source, we can't use it. The same exact thing got the Necromonger Way page deleted. BishopTutu 19:57, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

the flash comic was partialy an outside source, but due to retcon is no longer84.228.11.96 20:01, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

the retconning factor includes, riddick coming from an evolved offshoot of human species "Furyans"84.228.11.96 20:11, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Where is this information located? BishopTutu 20:13, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

what the cool comic? in pitch black site, look deeper you will find it84.228.11.96 20:15, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

i like to talk about riddick84.228.11.96 20:19, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Is this an official piece of info, or fan-made? If it is official, prove it. BishopTutu 20:24, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

wich part?84.228.11.96 20:26, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Crap, all of it. Is it official-made? BishopTutu 20:29, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

90% yes, check the chronicles site, there is "hunt for riddick" flash game, complete it on its entirety, it offers a lot of info about the riddickverse. even when the whole futuristic setting takes place somewhere after 27's century the rest 10% is what hinted but not outright stated 84.228.11.96 20:35, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

What is the web address? BishopTutu 20:37, 24 December 2006 (UTC)


www.thechroniclesofriddick.com, but click the "pitch black" first, then the "chronicles"

I removed your recent statement; no offense, but try to maintain talk page etiquitte. Remember, its not a forum or messaging room. But regarding your finds on this flash movie-thing, I'm going to look over it and see what we can add. It is the official site, so I guess we can use it. BishopTutu 20:53, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

is that was about my last semi-swear word, but you used the word c-r-a-p? i thought i could too well, i guess its your house, your rules i am but a guest here i am sorry, i am friendly84.228.11.96 21:01, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

whooa dear dude you are too tight about the double-max qlarify sources alert!(in robotic voice). you need to trust your instincts sometimes just like "shyra" says84.228.11.96 21:07, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Oh no, i meant no offense. And as for clarifying sources, Wikipedia isn't about guessing or using your instincts; It's essentially an encyclopedia, and encyclopedias have verifiable information. Also, I don't think we can use any of that info on the Pitch Black flash movie; some of it is already stated and some is either retconned or insignificant. BishopTutu 21:20, 24 December 2006 (UTC)


soo you seen that flash comic how was it cool right? its sad that it was retconned also there is a "into pitch black" feature video it gives some info84.228.11.96 21:25, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

please explain what is insignificant? every piece is vital (in my mind though)84.228.11.96 21:27, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Some of the info pertaining to the minor characters of Pitch Black, and other smaller stuff. I do find somewhat interesting the info and screenshots detailing the "eyeshine operation." I'm not too confident on the fact it may not be relevant enough or not contain enough info. BishopTutu 21:40, 24 December 2006 (UTC)


what's with the crimes section? 84.228.11.96 21:44, 24 December 2006 (UTC) i would have doing the same thing for the safety of imam and jack there is a difference between survival instinct killer and a bloodlusty killer

It's about facts man. The fact is, regardless of why he did it, is that he killed people. BishopTutu 22:06, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

okay if its only about facts84.228.11.96 22:11, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

on the vakko page i got the impression that lord marshal did realise that he is gonna get killed, he just rather chose to get killed by riddick than his trusted officer vakko "You keep what you kill" 84.228.80.168 12:54, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

The prophecy stated that he was going to be killed by a Furyan; it was specific. The whole reason the Lord Marshall waged war on Furya was to kill all the Furyans, thereby preserving his like because there would be no one to kill him. He doesn't want to be killed at all, regardless of who or what they were. BishopTutu 07:12, 26 December 2006 (UTC)


i agree with you and respect what you say, but i can't help but notice that necromonger's boss realised that his fate is inevitable, here how it all goes(atleast in my eyes) yes when he almost succeds to kill riddick he says "YOU Not the one to bing me down" then gets hit from behind by kyra, knocks her to the air, it just looks like when he is wounded and asks vaako to help, vakko wants to sever his head instead (greedy family ah!) marshal is in shocking suprise that he is betrayed by his trusty officer, marshall pulls out his astral form in a split-second to look around where to displace safely, sees riddick waiting for him to do it, marshall realised that from both ways he is DEAD, he rather chose to be slayn by riddick's hand80.230.242.137 13:47, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

That's purely your opinion though. Wikipedia isn't a place for your opinion. I'm not trying to be rude. I'm merely stating a fact. Plus, if you pay attention, you can notice that the physical form always follows the astral, regardless. He didn't chose to be killed by Riddick, because if didn't know Riddick was there; the look of surprise on his face before dying supports this. BishopTutu 16:47, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
Please don't add nonsense to talk pages. If you don't have an actual articulated response, please don't post a message up, then. I'm not being uptight; it's the rules. Try to remain classy please. BishopTutu

sorry my mistake,well i agree partly on that the necro's boss says "you not the one to bring me down",but the necro's boss dosen't seems so suprised when he gets skull-knifed, what other people told you about this dramatic moment? 84.228.9.169 20:22, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Actually, he does look at Riddick with surprise when he attempts to escape before he is stabbed. Mind you, it's not an exaggerated or overdone look of surprise, but it's suprised, nonetheless. BishopTutu 21:04, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

oh maybe you right. well lets talk about riddick's energy discharge incidents!, the way i see it, shyra needed to actually directly unlock riddick's power to maximum radius potential, riddick can do somewhat on his own a smaller radius blast, what do you think? (no-fart humor intended) 84.228.9.169 21:12, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Because Shirah's "unlocking" incident happened in the Director's Cut instead of the original release, we can't determine if this incident truly happened, that is, we don't know if this incident will be recalled in the next film. Plus, on terms of radius, you can't simply say it was of small radius, for the room itself was of small radius. BishopTutu 21:30, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

well, maybe you are right again!, mr.bishoptutu did you check out the flash game on riddick's site and explored it fully ? 84.228.9.169 21:39, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Not yet. I'm currently dealing with important issues on another page. BishopTutu 22:01, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

what the b. in his name stands for?83.130.126.141 10:32, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Oh yes, as for the Furyans being an offshoot of humans, I'm not too sure we can consider that retconned just yet; I feel it's still plausible. BishopTutu 05:09, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

check this link please

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mT7kkAOZKxA&mode=related&search=

notice how necromonger's boss astral form DID actually notice riddick waiting for him. also riddick displayed an ability to fight-off lord marshall's spirit-ripping powers (riddick's spirit must be so strong, indeed an unconquerable furyan "animal thing" )

80.230.213.91 14:21, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Like I said, the physical form always follows the astral form. If the Lord Marshall truly had a choice in moving out of the way of Riddick, he would have definitely done so. BishopTutu 17:22, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

okay you don't want to agree with me, but atleast riddick's remarkable resistance to lord's spirit-ripper powers should be noted 83.130.174.27 20:15, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Now, I'm not trying to be antagonistic, but I won't agree with you because the Lord Marshall's astral form does notice him, but only at the last minute when he was trying to escape. You must also note that this happens in slow motion, that is, in real time, it happens much faster, perhaps in a second or two's time. As for Riddick's abitily to resist being "soul-ripped," I thought that was already noted. If not, I'll see if it can be implemented into the article effectively. BishopTutu 23:32, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

my apologies for the rampancy84.228.177.241 18:59, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Oh, no, there's no need for an apology. I just thought I'd clear that up, for future reference. BishopTutu 19:09, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

i meant the vandalism84.228.177.241 19:37, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

well yes the it happens in slow motion....only for the necro's boss. User:84.228.177.241|84.228.177.241]] 19:12, 31 December 2006 (UTC)


No, it's not only for the Lord Marshall. Everyone is in slow motion, including Riddick and Vaako; the only part that looks fast in the slow motion sequence is when the physical form of the Lord Marshall catches up with the astral form. BishopTutu 20:03, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

i feel lord marshall is significant to riddick's life, he slaugtered his momy and dady, made him an orphan, lord is sourcely responsible to why riddick grow up to be what he is, in the end riddick avenged his parents 84.228.177.241 20:26, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Information like that only belongs in the Chronicles of Riddick, not necessarily on the page pertaining to Riddick and his character. BishopTutu 20:39, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

about body count section is it necessary to title it as "crimes"? i feel some sense of blind and unrealistic pacifism, but i am partly agree because there is one kill wich is questionable in "dark fury cartoon" when he pined down some merc to the ground, the merc is disarmed does not pose any threat anymore and yet gets his neck crushed(off-screen)84.228.177.241 20:43, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

I just flat-out removed it; it's irrelevant, unnecessary, and doesn't, necessarily, detail all of his "crimes," but more of his acts of murder. If it's going to be put back up, it needs to be made more relevant. BishopTutu 21:29, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

thank you far to kind84.228.177.241 21:41, 31 December 2006 (UTC)


riddick got set upped by the company-according to the novel. according to the pitch black's website riddick joined a mercenary platoon in some vaguely referenced war, which he slaughtered in a fit of bloodlust all his "merc'platoon"84.229.195.136 17:48, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

We can't use info from the novel, if it's only in the novel. Also, because a great deal of that infor from the site is retconned, we may not be able to use it. BishopTutu 18:25, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

but still the info on the website fits nicely without interference84.229.195.136 19:34, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes, but it's still possible that it's retconned. BishopTutu 19:38, 1 January 2007 (UTC)


there is some battle vaguley referenced "the wailing wars" and johns the merc specialized in tracking down the deserters of that battle(those who abandoned orders) oh thank you for removing the crimes section 84.229.195.136 19:52, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

riddick did one questionable kill in "dark fury cartoon" when he pined down some merc to the ground, the merc is disarmed does not pose threat anymore and yet gets his neck crushed (off-screen)its conflicting with his code, but it could stem from his hatered for mercs.

in the pinal part of the flash game on chronicles of riddick site, when you explore his hideout you get caught up in a rope-trap, riddick comes and frees you and says the following in his creepy and dry voice:

"since you are not a real merc, i'am gonna give you a chance, take off NOW, and don't tell what you found and what.......you didn't found"

if i chose to remain silent about riddick's whereabouts to the mercs, the mercs still go looking for him but get killed instead, riddik dosen't kills you though, instead he gives you a thropy and says "they still followed to my cave, but you didn't flinch" 84.229.195.136 22:04, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

but if you chose to tell the mercs where to look for riddick, the mercs give you some chunk of cash, then mercs get killed in a eyeblink, riddick then comes to you and guts you saying "you behaved like a merc, you die like a merc" 84.229.195.136 22:11, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but that information is totally irrelevant for posting in the article. Because it's merely a game (that hasn't been followed up on, in any film), we can't use it; all other info not pertaining to the game is not noteworthy anyway. BishopTutu 22:32, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

its okay to ignore the last part of the game(because its not follows the movie) but the other parts give outside source of refernces that follow the movie well with extra info, did you checked out the flash game yet? 84.229.195.136 22:47, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

http://www.thechroniclesofriddick.com/hunt/index.html

please you have to check this link–

riddick chose to subconsiously believe into technical and plausible explanation ablout how he received clear night sight

Until this info is followed up in a movie or, possibly, a game, we can't use it. BishopTutu 17:32, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

but but you did checked the link right? you said previously that you can use this info

I never said I could use it. I merely said that I would see if it could be integrated into the article. BishopTutu 20:27, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

but you checked it right? what parts prevent it from integrating?

that flash thing is it is a official outside source integrate it NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!

Unless you were joking, you need to calm down. I'm still dealing with major issues with another article. BishopTutu 06:11, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

okay okay i'am calm try this then http://riddickgallery.miniarchive.com/gallery/RiddickFacts/

For some reason, it won't display the page. Plus, as for the flash movies, I think that information belongs in the Chronicles of Riddick movie page, rather than this article; it pertains to other people and elements other than Riddick. Klptyzm 20:32, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

try this http://www.theriddickarchives.com/phpnuke/modules.php?name=Forums&file=search&search_author=ShadowHawk

click on the gallery section, then click on the riddick buffet, then chose the album: riddick trivia

[edit] What determines 'canon' here?

Ά♥Ω - I'm new here and I'm kind of confused. I've read the above discussion and I'm not sure I understand how you determine "canon". The definition here in Wikipedia defines canon as "..., in the context of a fictional universe, comprises those novels, stories, films, etc., that are considered to be genuine or officially sanctioned, and those events, characters, settings, etc., that are considered to have existence within the fictional universe" [my emphasis added]. Why then is the novelization of PB unacceptable? (and isn't the TCoR pop up commentary where they mention he learned to pilot in the military at least indirect secondary verification?) I don't understand what is meant by an outside source. How can you have an outside source for a fictional character whose existence stems from a single source - i.e. Universal Studios? Is not everything produced by Universal Studios/David Towhy in relation to the Riddick universe -- from the novelizations and flash movie (PCSlam City) to the SciFi channel PB "sequel" (Into Pitch Black) and online game (Hunt for Riddick) -- "officially sanctioned" and "considered to have existence within the fictional universe"? I recognize not everything is going to jive 100%. Obviously canon wise Audrey has been retconned (I had to go look that term up - LOL - you learn something new every day) to Jack, but that shouldn't invalidate the book as a whole should it? When it so much obviously still matches up in so many other places? Unless the info is/becomes contradictory, it seems to me it is just as valid. And frankly it doesn't matter if it is confirmed through 4 seperate sources (as the surgical origin for the eyeshine was, including 1 source that was put out [I think] a post-game), the studio can shift it at their whim. I don't want to come across sounding belligerent; I am genuinely confused. Please help me understand.

Amita4ever 20:52, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Because it would take a good while to explain, it's probably best if you read the info relevant to your question at WP:V, WP:N, and maybe a little WP:FICT. We could probably use the novelization, but becuase they're aren't too many (if any at all) secondary sources, such as (but not limited to) press coverage, to help verify the claims, it probably wouldn't help as much. I don't to seem like I'm giving you the run-around, but it would probably really help you more if you skimmed the section relevant to your query such as sections on "sources" and "notability." Ask more questions if you feel you still don't understand after skimming these pages. ♣ Bishop Tutu Chat wit' me § Contributions ♣ 16:11, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] beginings of riddick

anyone has any data on his childhood etc ? i think i remember him saying he had an umbilical cord around his neck and in a trash bin or something, might be a reference to the necromongers killing every furyan ? (this was in chronicles of riddick) Tyriel 10:25, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Source it. ♣ Klptyzm Chat wit' me § Contributions ♣ 18:34, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Kali

Are you sure that Kali is his martial art? What source is that from? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.240.148.113 (talk) 02:21, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

It says it on the DVD special features. ♣ Bishop Tutu Chat wit' me § Contributions ♣ 16:12, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
Plus Vin Diesel mentions it in this interview: [1] 70.17.151.234 (talk) 03:19, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Thrash or hell hound?

I have the DVD of the chronicles of Riddick and when the hell hounds growl the subtitles refer to them as Thrashes, so which one do we put them down as?58.163.63.198 (talk) 04:42, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] The Death By Tea Cup Thing

Under Riddick's abilities there's no reference to the "I'll kill you with my tea cup" schitck he did when he confronted those guards who had cornered Kira. The DVD special features mentions that one of the things one learns as a matter of survival in the triple max slams is how to make a weapon out of anything...and they do mean anything. Papa_Palpatine [unregistered] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.189.70.194 (talk) 02:33, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Add it with a source. ♣ Klptyzm Chat wit' me § Contributions ♣ 04:43, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Riddick's Main Characteristics/ Behaviour

Some time ago, this page contained detailed adn intelligent information about Riddick. The "Characteristics" topic, was richly detailed with all kinds of information retrieved from the movies and from the game. There also were detailed information about Riddick's behaviour, the factors that would lead him to kill or to lurk in the shadows, his weakness, notable feats, background, trivial information and even an intelligent article comparing Riddick's behaviour to a predatorial behaviour

I wish to know why all that information has suddently vanished or have been removed, and if it would be ok if I added them back into the page.

Thanks

The simple, most relevant answer is that most of this information was "original research," which is information that comes from one editor's personal observation rather than verifiable information. ♣ Klptyzm Chat wit' me § Contributions ♣ 19:35, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] "Deep baritone voice"

Isn't that rather a deep bass voice? It seems too low for a baritone, but I may be mistaken... Mikon (talk) 19:27, 25 May 2008 (UTC)