Talk:Rickson Gracie

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Contents

[edit] New Stuff

I added info from his official site, so let the arguing about the content matter begin? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jak3 dude (talk • contribs) 06:38, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

A lot of the material you added was copied from the source you gave (http://rickson.com/history/rickson.htm), which is a copyright violation. I've removed the material. Also, Rickson's official page isn't a reliable source for claims likely to be disputed, so remember to only cite his website for totally uncontroversial issues. MrVibrating (talk) 07:01, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

So if I reword it, I can post it? Jak3 dude (talk) 05:40, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Greatest Jiujiutsu Practitioner in the World

I'm surprised there isn't any information here about his talents at jiujiutsu. While his record as an MMA fighter is disputable what isn't is the fact that just about every person of any significant talent who has rolled with Rickson refers to him in glowing terms. I would edit the entry myself except I don't have the sources to back it up just yet.

[edit] 400-0 record

This article is horribly POV. Who wrote it? Rickson Gracie's 400-0 record is heavily disputed and unsubstantiated. This piece reads like an advertizement. --Malathion 09:02, 7 May 2005 (UTC)

No entry on Rickson would be complete without the 400-0 claim, I put it back in with some more info to make it NPOV. Tufflaw 17:34, May 7, 2005 (UTC)
Doesn't he have a documented loss in a Sambo tournament? Besides, your edit is better than the original, but the main article still references it. This whole article is full of Rickson worship and exaggerated, idealistic claims about him. A complete rewrite of the article is probably needed. --Malathion 01:15, 23 May 2005 (UTC)
Fixed POV, added info on the disputed Ron Tripp Sambo match. Tufflaw 03:17, May 23, 2005 (UTC)
Looks great! Good job. I'll see if I can get a source on the sambo thing. --Malathion 11:30, 27 May 2005 (UTC)

24-June-05 The 400-0 is almost certainly false. The real controversy is who created this myth - Rickson himself or his fanboys. Helio is own father said the 400-0 record is hogwash. http://bjj.org/interviews/rickson-97-11.html has Rickson giving an excuse on why he lost a sambo match.

Helio didn't say its hogwash only that he didn't consider them real "fights". Some are even street fights like against Hugo Duarte on the beach or Rickson vs Judo legend Hayward Nishioka in a dojo fight. But those fights are as real as they can get.Sage99 16:06, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] MMA record

Currently the MMA record is taken from Sherdog.com, which includes the (first) match against Zulu. This, however, is described as an "independent event", ie. basically a challenge match between two individuals. If this is counted as part of the record, one should also count the rematch between the two fighters, as well as, potentially, any other opponents Rickson faced in non-professional events. Yet many other MMA fighters, including Rickson's brothers such as Royce, have also fought in challenge matches, some of which have been recorded on video as well, but these are currently not being counted -- by the logic above, shouldn't those private matches be counted as well? This may potentially be a problem. Shawnc 07:02, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
Not really a 'challenge match', or 'non professional'. It was a stadium with lots of spectators, and was televised for the 'Vale-Tudo' TV show. Parts of the tape can be found on Google Video. It wasn't a Grace in Action type dojo storming like the Royce fights I believe you're referring to.PointyShinyBurning 13:57, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Achievements

In addition to his fighting record, the following claimed achievements are also highly disputed, and have never been corroborated:

- Gold Medal winner in Sambo at the Pan Am games in 1977.

- Two time Brazilian National Freestyle wrestling champion.

- Sixteen year middle-heavyweight and no weight division World Jiu-Jitsu Champion. --130.233.16.188 01:08, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Relationship to Kyra

This page now says that Kyra is Rickson's niece in the main text, and his daughter in the links at the bottom. Does anyone actually have a source as to her parentage? My google-fu is weak, I can't seem to find this anywhere.PointyShinyBurning 11:12, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] This article was cleaned up.

This article has been full with non-verifiable material for quite some time, so now i've cleaned it up to contain ONLY the material that can actually be verified. --Marcus 16:42, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Speculation

"Rumours have surfaced that he is training again in preparation to fight Kazushi Sakuraba in a K-1 match by the end of the year."

This sentence needs to be sourced. The reason I say this is because there have been rumors about Rickson coming out of retirement for 6 years! Why should we believe it now when it has turned out to be false on so many occations?


agreed

In the last few months, I've seen mentions of it -- a verbal agreement between Rickson and Sakuraba. However, the author of that did pointedly put "Rumours." As a result, I vote to keep it in there for now and simply keep our eyes open for further information. -- Dan N.


its now being said he will most likely fight yoshida at the k1 new years show (this is from the japanese language k1 site)—Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.193.22.58 (talk) 07:39, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] references

most of references in this article don't seem to exist anymore.

we need more new/reliable references...and I'm just wondering, are discussion forum posts considered reliable sources of information? because I don't think they are. Shinri baka 04:04, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't know what you people expect. For one, I would think that multitudes of witness accounts would be enough to verify the supposedly "disputed" records. For two, a lot of his achievements came from times and places where information was not diligently recorded, which means there aren't any sources to find. You can't just ignore it or say it didn't happen just because there are recorded independent sources; the multitudes of witness accounts should be enough since there's nothing better to go on. - Brandon Harwell, 4 Oct 2007


I think we have to be very careful (or skeptical) about using the gracie website as a source of Rickson's achievements. there are no other sources that indicate this. the idea that he was an openweight champion in 2 division (what organisation)for near two decades is news to me and highlight dubious. his BJJ technique is not arguable.

Like a lot of Rickson's story, too much is unsubstantiated. Of the 13 references we have on his page, 7 are directly from the gracies; 3 are just fight finder on sherdog; 2 are critical and independent sources/opinion and 1 is a story that doesn't open for me. while I accept it has been cleaned up somewhat, the lack of other sources leads me to recommend we remove some 'facts'.

Brandon above; who are these eye witnesses as from my experience they tend to be gracies or gracie students. There are too many previous MAs who claimed to be undefeated. its a legacy of the past when facts were more difficult to verify.

and while I have heard of this gold medal in sambo, in what organisation was this attained? Boils (talk) 04:18, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] New "Controversy" section

Sorry, User:65.30.50.222 - I misunderstood your citation. Could you please quote the issue number and the page number in your citation. David from Downunder (talk) 08:34, 13 May 2008 (UTC)