Talk:Richard of Shrewsbury, 1st Duke of York
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This title doesn't exactly trip off the tongue, does it? And I think "Tower" needs a capital letter, even if "prince" doesn't. Deb 20:08, 18 Aug 2003 (UTC)
- I expected objections to the title. I looked around the web for inspiration to disambiguate this Richard, Duke of York and found http://www.btinternet.com/~timeref/hprr.htm#J1440, which indeed has a capital P and a capaital T, so I'm sorry for that. I've no objection to the page been moved to something more suitable, if you have a better suggestion. Mintguy 22:37, 18 Aug 2003 (UTC)
this page stinks it doesn't give you any information and uses words that hardly anyone understands! Angry jade from gornal west midlands
[edit] Richard of Shrewsbury - 1st Duke of York??????????????????/
I don't think this title is correct - the subject's father is quoted as being 3rd Duke of York; The title for this Article '1st Duke of York should therefore be corrected, because:
Edward III created his 4th son
Edmund, 1st Duke of York, died 1402 Edward, 2nd Duke of York, died 1415 Richard, 3rd Duke of York, died 1461 RICHARD, 4th DUKE OF YORK, died 1483 (thereabouts- not going to get into an argument about who killed him).
I am unable to correct —Preceding unsigned comment added by Policymaster (talk • contribs) 18:32, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
No. Wrong. This article is about the First Duke of York of the 2nd creation. Yes his father was the 3rd Duke of York. And so if this article's subject had inherited his father's title he'd be the 4th Duke of York. But he never inherited his father's title. The subject of this article had a living older brother. So how does a YOUNGER brother INHERIT the title "Duke of York" from the father? That doesn't happen. Only the OLDER brother could INHERIT the title. What happened is that their father, the 3rd Duke of York, became King. At that instant the title "Duke of York" became extinct by reason of merger with the Crown. The former 3rd Duke of York, as KING, bestowed upon his SECOND son a NEWLY-created title, "Duke of York". The King had the right to bestow that title (unless it was already held, but, at that time, it wasn't, having gone defunct by merger with the Crown) on ANYONE he chose. The former 3rd Duke of York was not obligated to see that his oldest son receive the same title he himself had held before being King. In this NEW creation of the title "Duke of York" the younger son was the First ever to hold that title. The older boy was not created "Duke of York" because he received greater honors, such as being Prince of Wales. Why do you not object to this article's subject being billed as "1st" Duke of Norfolk too? There was a run of four Dukes of Norfolk before him, so why aren't you changing him to the "fifth" Duke of Norfolk? Why doesn't your quibble apply consistently across the board?
It says at the bottom of the page, for both titles, "New Creation". Obviously, then, he must be the "first" Duke of both.64.131.188.104 (talk) 17:17, 12 February 2008 (UTC)Christopher L. Simpson
Actually the 3rd Duke of York (who inherited the title through his mother's side, and therefore may have been a new creation himself) was the grandfather of Richard of Shrewsbury and was dead long before he was born. I think that King Edward IV, the son of the 3rd Duke of York and the father of Richard of Shrewsbury, became Duke of York on his father's death (having previously been Earl of March) but soon afterwards became King. Otherwise your points appear correct. RGCorris (talk) 11:15, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
[edit] "Perkin Warbeck"
In this article it says "Perkin Warbeck claimed to be Richard, Duke of York, but he is generally considered to have been an imposter, and was labelled thus by the Tudor regime." Since the Tudors, aside from Mary I, were the arch enemies of the House of York they would of course love to disinherit Richard even if "Perkin" was him or not. So essentially their stance on the matter is meaningless. Since "Perkin" only "confessed" to the Tudor version of history after they captured and likely tortured him this is hardly vertifiable. There is no absolute proof that Richard was not "Perkin Warbeck". - Yorkshirian (talk) 05:06, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
There is no absolute proof either way, which is why this article cannot be definite on the matter. Nevertheless the majority of historians seem to favour the idea that he was an imposter, therefore "generally considered" seems a fair way to describe the matter. RGCorris (talk) 11:18, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
