Talk:Rhetoric

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Contents 1 Greek Rhetoric != Public Speech (= Oratory) 2 Talk Page 3 Language 4 Public Speaking 5 Applied Social Psychology 6 Rhetoric and the Masses, Definitions 7 People 8 Figure of Speech 9 Wrong Weaver 10 Burke, Cassirer 11 Eastern Rhetoric 12 History of Rhetoric 13 McLuhan Dissertation - an ad? 14 how does this work? 15 The term rhetoric in modern usage 16 POV Check 17 Things that need doing 18 Plato vs. Socrates and Socrates' actions 19 Rhetorical triple/t 20 "oral language" 21 Rhetoric (especially at UC Berkeley 22 Confusing 23 Rhetoric and Meaning 24 This article does not tell me what rhetoric is 25 Sophists and Rhetoric

[edit] Greek Rhetoric != Public Speech (= Oratory)

While in modern times most people think of Cicero's speeches etc. if they hear the term "rhetoric", that was completely different in ancient Athens. Even Plato still knew that oratory was public speech while rhetoric was the art of discussion (sic!), preferably in small groups. And no, rhetor (= someone trying to argue in a discussion) was not used as a synonym for orator (=speaker). Jhartmann 13:26, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Are you sure you're not confusing rhetoric with dialectic??? TimNelson 03:28, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Talk Page

Debate and such. Who and what should (and shouldn't) be included in a general overview of the subject, etc. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 142.177.68.xxx (talk • contribs) 17 July 2001.

Can we add an Ernesto Grassi page or reference Rhetoric As Philosophy? What about including a link to hermeneutic authors such as Gadamer and Habermas? --Laetus007 22:38, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Language

Why this strange reluctance about the word "language"? All rhetoric is linguistic in some way. Pictures are language too. Shouldn't we change "usually through language" to "through language". And "any symbolic system etc." to just either "any symbolic system" or just "any language"? I mean, all symbolic systems are a form of language, at least that's the consensus in my linguistics department. ;) Is this edit ok with everybody? 129.177.48.51 12:35, 10 May 2006 (UTC)Martin Larsen

A few things:

1. Wikipedia says Be bold. Normally, just make the change and provide your reasoning here (but not now that I'm arguing it :) ).

2. I think "language" is being used in the lay sense of "spoken/written language". I forget the proper linguistic term for what I want to say, but I think you see what I'm getting at. If you can think of a linguistic term that a) communicates the meaning I just explained, and b) is understandable to a lay person, then post the suggestion here.

TimNelson 03:37, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Public Speaking

I was under the impression that most of what is discussed in this article falls under Public speaking. Rhetoric is an archic term which usually has somewhat negative connotations now. Should the articles be merged? F. Lee Horn 14 January 2002

Rhetoric in its modern usage is a broader term which can cover written composition as well as the spoken word (indeed, 'spoken' is implied in ancient rhetoric). By the way, I'm a little concerned about the phrasing on public speaking about 'every speech has to be earned' or some such. I get paid to give speeches. I have to earn the right to be listened to, I suppose. It sounds too much like a self-help manual. --User:MichaelTinkler 14 January 2002

Ah! Perhaps I can persuade you to write one article to cover them both then! (smile) May I ask your occupation? F. Lee Horn 14 January 2002

College professor. Who else gets paid to talk even if the audience is not entirely willing? And no, 'rhetoric' is certainly one of the fields of which I know enough to know that I know nothing! --User:MichaelTinkler 15 January 2002

What do you think about my finishing the article on public speaking for now? Then, if you like, we can discuss how the two articles relate to each other. BTW...I had an undergraduate minor in the subject, so I know just enough to be dangerous! But I *was* a member of a championship debate team, so perhaps that's worth somthing? Your input would be greatly appreciated. F. Lee Horn 15 January 2002

Well, I see the point is moot now that someone has seen fit to totally remove the Public Speaking article. Any idea who did that?  :( F. Lee Horn 15 January 2002

It's still there! - you capitalized the 'Speaking', though, so the link won't work. Public speaking. --MichaelTinkler —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.153.24.xxx (talk • contribs) 15 January 2002.

Re the question whether there should be two articles: there should definitely be an article titled "rhetoric" in any case. This is a very important topic for understanding a lot of Western culture.

There are other synonyms for "public speaking," however ("rhetoric" isn't one of them): speech, speechmaking, oratory, oration. --LMS, 2nd place, 1985, Oration, Alaska state high school debate & forensics tournament. (My debate partner won 1st place.)

I hope no one objects too strenuously to my reworking of the article on Rhetoric. I still don't think it's complete. My current concern was to provide some understanding of how rhetoric once was so important, but now is so trivial (in the popular view, that is). The quickest way to do so seemed to be via a brief description of Quintilian's "Institutes" followed by the scholastic reformations of Petrus Ramus. Steve Swope (M.A. 1982, Rhetoric & Communication, University of Pittsburgh) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 63.185.15.80 (talk • contribs) 18 April 2002.

"Public Speaking" is one of the five parts of Rhetoric, that is, it belongs to Delivery. DigitalMedievalist 06:08, 1 Mar 2004 (UTC) Lisa

You people sure do appeal to ethos by flashing your credentials. Just kidding. --Cyberman 21:28, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Applied Social Psychology

Rhetoric is a fundamental tool in applied social psychology, among other domains, but at least all of the things professional psychologists do are based on their skills at interpersonal persuasion. Can't cut, push pills, or massage; can only talk. Even teaching is based on rhetoric, the "rhetors" were the first professional teachers, so it is a foundational concept in the social and behavioral sciences. At a practical level, the British social psychologist, Michael Billig, coined the term "witcraft" for the application of rhetoric to psychology. Paul Larson, Ph.D., Chicago School of Professional Psychology —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 12.249.74.67 (talk • contribs) 14 March 2003.

Yeah. I started to notice that as I read about rhetoric. Seemed like the only way to intelligently persuade someone is by playing mind games, AKA psychological warfare via rhetoric. I pretty much equate it all to sophistry and like Plato's view. However, some people are arguing that people who don't take up a Sophist-like view are fantical skeptics. Reminds me of an old quote: *googles* Oh! How ironic! I never knew the quote came from Plato! "Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools, because they have to say something." --Cyberman 21:25, 16 August 2006 (UTC) i have this as homework n i dont know what in the world this means

[edit] Rhetoric and the Masses, Definitions

I wonder about your characterization of rhetoric as "apparently trivial" to the masses. I am completing a Ph.D. in Rhetoric and Composition, and I work at a university where rhetoric has its own department -- separate from the English, communications, and marketing departments. While it's true that the general public thinks of rhetoric with negative connotations, I don't think academia has abandoned it, and considering the growth of programs in rhetoric and composition, I think it's becoming less trivial all the time. I'd be happy to chat more about this if you haven't had a chance to explore rhetoric's connections to composition theory yet. (Karen M. Kuralt, ABD, English/Rhetoric and Composition, Purdue University; Asst. Prof. of Rhetoric and Writing, University of Arkansas at Little Rock)

Also, you mentioned that you would like to explore definitions of rhetoric in this piece. Maybe the best place to start is with something along the lines of Aristotle or James Kinneavy. I sometimes tell my students that rhetoric is what is created when a rhetor (a speaker, writer, or other artist) uses skills and strategies (and we discuss some examples of "skills and strategies") to shape a message for a particular purpose, for a particular audience, for a particular occasion, in a particular context. I realize this is very broad, but it seems to be a good starting point for helping students realize where different interpretations of rhetoric arise, depending on how theorists approach the elements I've italicized. One of the most important debates that you might want to address is the question of whether rhetoric is an independent area of knowledge (is rhetoric epistemic) or whether it is merely a tool for expressing knowledge from other fields. (Karen M. Kuralt) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Requiem (talk • contribs) 4 July 2003.

I think there is a fundamental flaw in the first part of the article stating that rhetoric is oral communication. I think that rhetoric can be applied to communication in general when using any and all means in each particular case to persuade. A picture can be a very persuasive, and body can language can as well, and in which case both can be considered rhetoric. comment by Amgood 16 January, 2007

[edit] People

I hope you don't mind me adding a few people to your list. Hopefully, I will find the time to start adding more information to some of them. Radical edward 1 December 2003

[edit] Figure of Speech

I have recently edited and expanded the Figure of speech page, as well as the individual pages of various figures. Would anyone object to removing the list (at least the items that are figures of speech) at the end of Rhetoric and having a pointer to Figure of speech? I think it will make Rhetoric a bit more compact, and eliminate the redundancy that currently exists. Dpaking 21 February 2005. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Dpaking (talk • contribs) 21 February 2005.

[edit] Wrong Weaver

I doubt that the Richard M. Weaver who wrote on rhetoric is the hand shaker linked to this page. That Weaver could not have gotten past the secret service to shake President Carters hand since he died in 1963. [David M. Ross] —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.8.237.20 (talk • contribs) 24 January 2004.

[edit] Burke, Cassirer

Nice so far. Burke and Cassirer both mentioned too! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Wblakesx (talk • contribs) 21 September 2004.

[edit] Eastern Rhetoric

I find that this page is sadly lacking (as is the litterature about rhetoric in general) in a view on eastern rhetoric. I found this page very interesting: http://homepage.mac.com/tehart/asian_rhetoric_frame.html and it seems to me that Plato would be more fond of Buddhist rhetoric than Aristotle's :) I don't consider myself learned enough to edit the page as it is, so I guess this is a request that someone do. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 129.177.234.154 (talk • contribs) 18 November 2004.

edit: sorry, the link doesn't seem to work. Just go to http://homepage.mac.com/tehart/ and click your way from there... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.202.105.243 (talk • contribs) 13 January 2005.

In accordance with Wikipedia's Be bold, I added the corrected link to the main page. But someone still needs to expand that section on Wikipedia (possibly based on the article listed). TimNelson 03:57, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] History of Rhetoric

The article is somewhat heavily tilted toward the history of rhetoric. Most of this content should be moved to history of rhetoric, with a new article on rhetoric that is largely conceptual. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mikedelsol (talk • contribs) 21 March 2005.

Rhetoric in of itself is strictly translated as the art of speech and writing. Writing, as everybody knows, deals with another form of voice -- an internal one. Therefore, to speak further on the topic, a look into what makes writing different from speaking needs to be adressed (which I would be happy to discuss in due course). I'm not one to write an article combining the two, though. I don't know all the history -- only the Roman and some of the Greek. I'm just one of the few Ciceronians left. -- Praetorbrutus praetorbrutus@yahoo.com —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Praetorbrutus (talk • contribs) 29 October 2005.

For now, I think the historical approach is fine; a more extensive section dealing with the parts of rhetoric would still need to be linked to the history, for the simple reason that concepts of what is included/excluded within the field (rhetoric) have changed over time.

The more serious problem is that this is (1) incomplete and (2) heavily tilted towards the writer's interest in Macluhan, who, though he was briefly important (1962-72), was also highly over-praised. Under (1) what's needed is to carry the story through the 18th and early 19th centuries, and then into the development of literary criticism in the late nineteenth. There are numerous links to Lit. Crit. in both the history and practise of rhetoric, and these could be profitably explored, along with more detailed work on Burke in particular. Under (2), I would recommend cutting nearly all of this. I loved Macluhan when I was an undergraduate, but going back to "Understanding Media," recently, I was appalled at the leaps in logic, and the questionable assertions used to back up some of his claims, not to mention the paucity of documentation for some of his flashier ideas. It's a provocative work, but not a scholarly one, and doesn't deserve highlighting in an article supposed to offer a basic outline of the history of the field. (15 July 06) Theonemacduff 18:36, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree that the McLuhan stuff needs to be moved to the McLuhan page, and a link provided. I read McLuhan's stuff as a CompSci undergraduate (in Australia, that's unusual), but the only one of his books that I purchased after reading was the Gutenberg Galaxy. IIRC, he afterwards thought that in Understanding Media, he lost the battle with his publishers over writing style, so I'd hesitate to judge him on that one.

As for moving the history elsewhere, I think it's a good idea. I think that the way to write a non-historical article is to cover all areas, but have a link saying that there has been disagreement throughout history as to what should be included, and link to the History of hetoric page. TimNelson 04:01, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

The irony of course is that Rhetoric as a discipline has been wrestling with the notion of being purely historical. Ironically, the debate that is indelibly linked to this idea is neutrality in criticism, which rhetorical theory scholars would reject completely. jghitzert

I agree that the McLuhan stuff should be removed. More importantly, Ong (McLuhan's protege) should be supplemented by a more recent (and less biased) source. M8lton 20:46, 10 December 2006 (UTC).

[edit] McLuhan Dissertation - an ad?

While I am not well versed in McLuhan's writings, I wonder if the sentence about his upcoming work is necessary in this article. I recommend deleting it, or at least not mentioning it as though it were an advertisement. The point of the page is to discuss Rhetoric, not scholarly books on sale soon. -Laura —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 134.173.160.162 (talk • contribs) 19:15, 15 February 2006.

I moved the sentence to a footnote. Hu 13:32, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] how does this work?

how does this system work?

Specify. There is as yet insufficient data in your question for a meaningful answer.--Piewalker 15:19, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The term rhetoric in modern usage

Maybe I missed it but the article appears to lack any discussion of how the term rhetoric is used in modern speech, especially with regard to political speech. When speaking of a politicians rhetoric one usually is describing his language as elaborate, pretentious, insincere, or intellectually vacuous. Thus it serves as a pejorative term. I think this should be mentioned in the article but I'm not sure where best to put it. --Cab88 14:32, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

JA: That is not the only meaning that rhetoric has in "modern" times -- all times are modern until they're not -- as you can see from any post*modern college catalogue. And many words are used as pejoratives whose primary meanings are simply descriptive. For instance, the way that post-modernists used the term modern as a pejorative. Jon Awbrey 14:40, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

The word has always had its baggage as a pejorative. Including alternative meanings is a job for wiktionary.jghitzert

[edit] POV Check

Beland has added the POV Check box because he apparently believes that the "Analysis of contemporary rhetoric" is not NPOV. I'd be interested in Beland's reasoning here; it seems to me that the article in question is itself NPOV, merely doing an analysis in the classical style. If no-one can provide any reasoning in 5 days, I'll talk it over with Beland and see if we can't get this removed. TimNelson 03:27, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Things that need doing

1. Expand the Eastern Rhetoric section
2. Move the McLuhan stuff to the McLuhan page, and link there from here
3. Expand the contemporary Rhetoric section. Discuss linguistic turn and the theories that are related. Especially a discussion of persona as described by Black, McGee and Wander. A discussion of Burke and post-modern rhetoric could be necessary as well. Maybe even a discussion of Gorgias and its implications on contemporary rhetorical theory.

I agree with these three recommendations. The discussion concerning McLuhan is highly misleading and belongs somewhere else. A more reasonable history of modern rhetoric might look more like this: 1. Wichelns and the neo-Aristotelian tradition; 2. Burke (especially identification); 3. Perelman and Olbrechts-Tyteca; 4. Edwin Black and the break w/neo-Aristotelianism; 5. the 1960's and social movements; 6. postmodern trends and influences (Raymie McKerrow, Foucault, Derrida, etc.); 7. recent prominent developments ("the rhetoric of ..."; McGee and ideographs; Marxist influences (Althusser, Cloud, etc.), prophetic rhetoric (Darsey), etc. Rahgsu 19:21, 27 January 2007 (UTC) Is it just me, or is the article too long? Covers too many diverse aspects of rhetoric without summarizing and/or proper distinction by structure.I think major themes need to be summarized and shunted off to their own articles to facilitate readability and comprehensibility, and also to try and comply with wikipedia's 32KB guidline. Right now the article is excessively academic and uninspired in its structure, more a haphazard list of facts than a fabricated article; information is too dense and featureless.

Well, I've just read it, and if this needs a "clean-up", then so do 99% of the articles on WP. It's one of the best here, and congrats to the people who did it. Btw, it would be an idea to sign and date your comments, especially when they concern topical matters such as "What needs to be done". As it stands, I can't quickly see if these are from yesterday or 2 years ago. Myles325a (talk) 03:54, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Plato vs. Socrates and Socrates' actions

The following was added under "Plato" by 71.202.38.77: "The above is the propogation of a bad--oversimplified--reading. Socrates is not simply Plato's mouthpiece! He's a character! In reading the dialogues, and especially Phaedrus, Symposium, Republic, pay attention not only to what Socrates says, but also to what he does."

I agree with this statement, and I think this more complex reading of Plato should be worked in to this portion of the article. This could also use a citation (i.e. some works that complicate the traditional reading of Plato as antirhetorical or arhetorical).I'm going to put something on this person's talk page asking them to rewrite the section. If they don't do it, I will.

[edit] Rhetorical triple/t

Add rhetorical triple/ts? Calineed 22:12, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "oral language"

While I would agree that at certain times (Ancient Greece, for instance) rhetoric has been defined as "oral persuasion," I really have to question the word "oral" in the first line of this article. Entire subsets of rhetorical study are based on textual persuasion. Contemporary rhetorical scholarship deals with both oral and written language. Currently, the first sentence reads:

"Rhetoric (from Greek ῥήτωρ, rhêtôr, orator, teacher) is the art or technique of persuasion through the use of oral language."

A few edits back, I removed the word "oral" from this sentence. Tito4000 reintroduced the word "oral" with this reasoning:

"I've reintroduced "oral" in the definition as it's important to stress that rhetoric belongs in the realm of oral expression.

This hardly seems like a good reason, right? The argument here is that oral should be included because it's "important to stress that rhetoric belongs in the realm of oral expression." This seems like a circular argument to me. I'm arguing that rhetoric is the use of language to persuade - a newspaper editorial, an academic book, a television show, a picture...all of these can be included under rhetoric. Does anyone have thoughts on this?

Jamesjbrownjr 03:44, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Rhetoric (especially at UC Berkeley

UC Berkeley is one of the first Universities to dedicate an entire department to the study of rhetoric (go to the site: rhetoric.berkeley.edu). I am very fortunate to be enrolled in it (third year), and I have to say that there is a huge discrepancy between classical rhetoric and contemporary rhetoric (which although emerges in the mid 20th century, really has its place following post-structuralist/anti-foundationalist thinkers like Foucault and Derrida. It also does have its non-continental folk, like J. L. Austin and Stanley Cavell. I REALLY REALLY want someone to help revise the portion on modern/contemporary rhetoric. There is a lot of work to be done there.

Honestly, because of the nature of language and rhetoric, I wouldn't be surprised if this took a HUGE effort to categorize. I personally think that there should be a brief synopsis on classical and contemporary rhetoric, and then be split up into two separate articles. I really think the section on contemporary rhetoric can be gigantic and overwhelming on its own; and as it remains now, it is fractured and incomplete.

[edit] Confusing

I read the entire first two paragraphs with a good idea of what rhetoric is in my head, and I now have no idea what it is. I think the Socratic details could have waited until later paragraphs. Rhetoric (from Greek ῥήτωρ, rhêtôr, orator, teacher) is generally understood to be the art or technique of persuasion through the use of spoken and written language; however, this definition of rhetoric has expanded greatly since rhetoric emerged as a field of study in universities. In this sense, there is a divide between classical rhetoric (with the aforementioned definition) and contemporary practices of rhetoric.

"Historically, Classical Rhetoric has its inception in a school of Pre-Socratic philosophers known as Sophists. It is later taught as one of the three original liberal arts or trivium (the other members are dialectic and grammar) in Western culture. In ancient and medieval times, grammar concerned itself with correct, accurate, pleasing, and effective language use through the study and criticism of literary models, dialectic concerned itself with the testing and invention of new knowledge through a process of question and answer, and rhetoric concerned itself with persuasion in public and political settings such as assemblies and courts of law."

Yes but what is RHETORIC?

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 63.229.221.191 (talk) 02:00, 8 May 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Rhetoric and Meaning

"Every aspect of human life and thought that depends on the articulation and communication of meaning can be said to involve elements of the rhetorical." (3rd paragraph under Rhetoric)

I feel that to define modern rhetorical theory as those "aritculation(s) and communication(s)" that have meaning is far too simplistic. A debate that many rhetoricians enjoy today actually concerns the relevance of attaching meaning to ANY textual utterance(whether it be written text, film, oral, musical, pictorial, or conceptual).

Further, I have a real problem with the entirety of the McLuhan section under the History of Modern Rhetoric heading--he simply is not that seminal to the course of Modern Rhetorical Theory--however popular he may be. This section should be completely re-written to include more rhetoricians and theorists--many of whom pop up in the notes without much discourse as to their influence on the subject within the main text.

Finally (for now), the article is far too long and tries to cover too much for the guidelines and standards as I understand them here. I am considering editing the article into at least three stand alone atricles: A broad introduction from which one can access the History, Development and Current Rhetorical Concerns, or something to that effect...I mean, really, 7,000 words? No one wants to slog through all of that to get to some salient and necessary point.

Please accept my apology if I come across too crabby--I sometimes do when I am being bold!

Poetess 22:09, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] This article does not tell me what rhetoric is

I do not consider myself qualified to edit this article - I looked it up because I wanted to know what 'Rhetoric' actually meant, but I am afraid that I didn't find the entry very helpful. At risk of labouring the point I reproduce the first para. below:

Rhetoric (from Greek ῥήτωρ, rhêtôr, orator, teacher) the definition of rhetoric has expanded greatly since rhetoric emerged as a field of study in universities. In this sense, there is a divide between classical rhetoric (with the aforementioned definition) and contemporary practices of rhetoric which include the analysis of written and visual texts.

OK, but, what is Rhetoric, Really?

what is the 'aforementioned definition'?

Is it teaching? Oration? persuasion?

Is a good powerpoint presentation Rhetoric? A Church sermon? A political speech?

What about, say, the Gettysburg address? Was it Rhetoric when the address was delivered, and, if so, is the transcript of the address also Rhetoric?

How does it differ from other forms of written or verbal communication?

what is a 'Rhetorical question' ?

An opening paragraph which gave a concise definition ( if possible) followed by a few sentences which clearly addressed the questions above (or similar) would really help.

Thanks!

Jforrest1 22:30, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sophists and Rhetoric

Isn't sophistry nearly the opposite of rhetoric? One definition of sophism is "a deliberately invalid argument displaying ingenuity in reasoning in the hope of deceiving someone" So how could the sophists have invented rhetoric, as the article says? —Preceding unsigned comment added by JoshNarins (talk • contribs) 15:42, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

From my (undergraduate) studies on rhetoric, I understand that the sophists were rhetors. They just had different ideas on the purposes of rhetoric. The discussion here under "Rhetoric and the Masses, Definition" makes an excellent point that rhetoric is not just about one thing. It's about the rhetor, the means of persuasion, the message, the audience, etc. I don't think that the defintion of sophism you mentioned is accurate, at least from my understanding of sophists and rhetoric. The way I understand classical rhetoric is that there was (among other things) a divide between those who believed in transcendent truth, and those who did not - you know, is there an absoulte truth and can it be known. The sophlsts, from what I gather, were attacked by people like Plato for not believing in THE 'truth' because if there's no absolute truth, there's no morality either, and these ideas were (are) considered dangerous to society - and to epistemologies which needed transcendent truth. What sophists seemed to be getting at, from my understanding, was the use of rhetoric as a form of self-defense. If you know the means of persuasion, you're less likely to be unduly influenced. I'm just an undergrad though, so my knowledge on this is very limited, and I certainly don't have the 'ethos' to back this up. Also, this definition of sohpism seems to me to define rhetoric as a means to persuade using only valid arguments and for the purpose of enlightening, which does not seem to be the case, especially with how the word 'rhetoric' seems to be used today. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.2.175.70 (talk) 20:46, 14 March 2008 (UTC)