Talk:Rhapsody in Blue

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Suddenly he remembered that Whiteman had asked him if he would like to write a "jazz-influenced concert piece" for that occasion. But soon afterwards he thought that it was not serious at all, and so it was quite a shock when he read that.

I have no idea what the second sentence here is trying to say. 128.2.169.22 00:35, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Your guess is as good as mind. Looks incomplete. I could guess that it means something like "it was a shock when he read in the papers that it was to premiere in a few weeks..." yeah... that seems to be correct... Dpbsmith (talk) 01:42, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Better?
Don't forget the tab at the top of every page that says "Edit this page!" Dpbsmith (talk) 01:52, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Umm, the thing about the Rhapsody being the second last piece in the premiere concert conflicts with the entry on "Aeolian Hall" where it says the Rhapsody was the penultimate piece. Could someone look up and correct this discrepancy? 58.104.116.166 15:02, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Don't "second last" and "penultimate" mean the same thing?--Diniz 13:31, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Music in Ohare walkway?

Although I haven't been through Ohare in a while, I believe it is Brian Eno's "Music for Airports" that plays in the moving walkway area, not Rhapsody in Blue. Can anyone else confirm this? Is this a mistake or did they change the music?

CSharpMinor 00:44, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Rhapsody in Blue reaction

The reaction to rhapsody in blue made it anything but an instant success, some people walked out half way through the debut performance. The sentence saying it was met with instant success is wrong, i'd like to change it. Briaboru 22:54, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

I've replaced the "instant success" statement with a quotation from Olin Downes' review in the New York Times the following day. Add a quotation from your source about people walking out halfway through. Downes' obviously thought the audience liked it, but evidently the feeling was not unanimous. Dpbsmith (talk) 02:27, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
Hmmmm....
Program notes from the Springfield, MA symphony (OK, not a great source) says:
The premiere, on February 12 1924, was a smashing success. Although the critics – true to form – mostly panned it, the audience loved it and overnight, jazz became respectable. Gershwin himself played the piano part, becoming an instant celebrity.
Program notes from the San Francisco symphony say:
conductor Walter Damrosch [was at the concert]. Damrosch was so impressed with Gershwin’s Rhapsody in Blue that he immediately commissioned a concerto he could introduce with his New York Symphony.
This CD description says (apparent scannos corrected)
Listeners were electrified. Gershwin’s success was indescribable – even with the press. Rhapsody in Blue was an immediate hit – not only in America, but in Europe as well. It made Gershwin, son of Russian immigrants, a wealthy man. Records and music alone brought him a quarter of a million dollars worth of royalties in ten years – and when Paul Whiteman played the piece in his “The King of Jazz”, he paid Gershwin the enormous sum of fifty thousand dollars.
Program notes from another small symphony (Charlotte) say:
The premiere of the Rhapsody in Blue — New York, Aeolian Hall, February 12, 1924 — was one of the great nights in American music.... Gershwin ... and his music had a brilliant success. “A new talent finding its voice,” wrote Olin Downes, music critic for The New York Times. Conductor Walter Damrosch told Gershwin that he had “made a lady out of jazz,” and then commissioned him to write the Concerto in F. There was critical carping about laxity in the structure of the Rhapsody in Blue, but there were none about its vibrant, quintessentially American character or its melodic inspiration, and it became an immediate hit, attaining (and maintaining) a position of popularity almost unmatched by almost any other work of a native composer.
Quite a lot of program-note-writers seem to think it was an instant success. Dpbsmith (talk) 02:41, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
Here's another take on it, from the competing New York paper and reviewer:
"How trite and feeble and conventional the tunes are; how sentimental and vapid the harmonic treatment, under its disguise of fussy and futile counterpoint! ... Weep over the lifelessness of the melody and harmony, so derivative, so stale, so inexpressive!" (Lawrence Gilman, New York Tribune, February 13, 1924) (Quoted in Nicolas Slonimsky, Lexicon of Musical Invective) (ps. that's a great book, a must have) Antandrus (talk) 02:45, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
I love it! I think that should go in the article, do you want to do the honors? Does it say anything about how the audience received it? Maybe the people who walked out during it were all critics? (I don't really think any of the program notes above are good sources for use in the article, because they don't cite their sources.) I'm fascinated by the statement that "It made Gershwin, son of Russian immigrants, a wealthy man." It seems to be saying that it was the Rhapsody in Blue that was the breakthrough for him... Dpbsmith (talk) 16:34, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
'Tis done. And his reviews for the American and Paris and Porgy and Bess are even funnier ... Antandrus (talk) 19:49, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Tom and Jerry?

I'm snipping

In the Tom and Jerry cartoons, each of the character's leitmotifs are quite obviously directly inspired by Rhapsody in Blue.

I don't have any Tom and Jerry music handy and I'm afraid I don't remember the character's "leitmotifs."

"Quite obviously directly inspired by" doesn't sound too objective to me, tunes being what they are and implications of plagiarism being what they are.

Of course cartoons do quote and borrow from classical music all the time, but I would have thought MGM would have been cautious about referring to music which... wouldn't it still have been under copyright at the time? Is Gershwin credited in the cartoon credits? Dpbsmith (talk) 11:05, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Well for a start I did not state that there was any form of plagiarism involved. I stated that the music was inspired by Gershwin. I did not say that the composer stole, lifted entire musical passages, chord sequences etc. from RIB, just that the music is obviously heavily influenced. So to be talking about plagiarism and copyright is a gross overreaction to my wording. Also, if you do not have any Tom and Jerry music to hand, then I find it to be bad faith to remove the text. I teach sound design for animation at two universities and I play my students both RIB (which most have never even heard before) and then an example T&J cartoon - and all of them (without even being musically inclined) can recognise similarities instantly. Perhaps you would like me to provide you with a copy of a T&J soundtrack? Howie ☎ 20:50, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
No, what I'd like you to do is, per Wikipedia policies WP:CITE and WP:V, find and cite a verifiable source that says the music was "inspired by Gershwin." My opinion doesn't matter here, your opinion doesn't matter here, your students' opinions don't matter here.
You can't put a statement like that in as your own opinion, no matter how expert or well-founded it may be. You can't put it in as an unattributed opinion.
You certainly can put it in as the opinion of a good, verifiable source—a book on animation or film scoring, for example. If you've written such a book yourself, or a journal article, you can cite your own published work.
Best of all, of course, would be a quotation from Scott Bradley acknowledging the influence. Dpbsmith (talk) 21:29, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
P. S. as for removing the text, please reread the verifiability policy:
The burden of evidence lies with the editor who has made the edit. Editors should therefore provide references. Any edit lacking a source may be removed. If you doubt the truthfulness of an unsourced statement, remove it to the talk page. Otherwise, just request a source.
That's what I'm doing here. Dpbsmith (talk) 00:39, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
The Wikipedia is coming very close to being discredited. Leave the Tom and Jerry stuff alone, it's obvious listening to the cartoon that it was Rhapsody-in-Blue inspired. While my recent edit complies with the verifiability policy, the verifiability policy is utterly stupid.
If you want to contribute to Wikipedia, you must abide by the verifiability policy, regardless of what you may think of it. It says so at the bottom of every edit box.
Please read my previous statement: "While my recent edit COMPLIES WITH THE VERIFIABILITY POLICY . . . ." I made no attempt to avoid the verifiability policy. And yes, I can read the verifiability policy, apparently better than you can read my previous comment.
Did you read the part of WP:V that refers to "reputable sources?" The whole point of the verifiability policy is to use sources that do fact-checking. Can you present some evidence that www.recordhall.com does fact-checking? Can you or anybody tell us who the author of www.recordhall.com/george-gershwin-biography.html is? Dpbsmith (talk) 23:29, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
I'm not going to remove the material right away, because I want to get some other people to discuss whether http://www.recordhall.com/george-gershwin-biography.html meets the "having already been published by a reputable publisher." Since it is anonymous, and appears to be a Wikipedia-like site to which anyone can contribute, I don't think it does. You can't use publication on another anonymous Wiki as a source for material here. Dpbsmith (talk) 16:01, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
P. S. In the article you cite, "7/4 time, the common time for jazz..." is that statement correct? Dpbsmith (talk) 16:13, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

BTW, I've been trying to find a source since the wording was - quite justifiably - removed (due to it being un-sourced). Some of the above argument is unsigned, and I thought I'd better just state that it wasn't me(!)... I'm still looking for a suitable source, although I have come across mentions that RIB itself was used as a soundtrack in one particular T&J short... but no one seems to know the name! Still searching... Howie ☎ 18:42, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, I appreciate your understanding (and civility...)
A source that says "a Tom and Jerry short used Rhapsody in Blue as a soundtrack," assuming it's a halfway reasonable source, would be a perfectly valid source for a statement in the article that "a Tom and Jerry short used Rhapsody in Blue as a soundtrack." I think it would be perfectly reasonable to put that in the article. Of course everyone is going to be frustrated by not knowing which short, but it is still a verifiable statement. And that might lead to some other editor following figuring out which one it was.
imdb has a lot of stuff listed for Scott Bradley but they don't have much detail on each individual short. I was trying to see if any titles lept out at me as suggesting Gershwin. Oddly, one did: there's a short, not a Tom and Jerry, called Blue Monday, which happens to be the title of a short operetta with music by Gershwin and book and lyrics by Buddy de Sylva, which Gershwin wrote early in his career (1922). I doubt that there's any connection, though. Dpbsmith (talk) 23:49, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
A forum posting, not good enough for verifiability but may it's a clue, says:
"I think the first place I heard a Gershwin piece was in a Tom and Jerry cartoon as a kid (the episode where Jerry leaves for the big city only, lives the highs and lows and then returns before Tom wakes up from his cat nap). I loved the music in that episode but didnt know who had composed it until recently." Dpbsmith (talk) 00:05, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
I wonder if that could be Mouse in Manhattan? Dpbsmith (talk) 00:07, 31 January 2006 (UTC) Nope, not it, "One of their most famous cartoons was Mouse in Manhattan (1945) that featured a score by Scott Bradley (made up mostly of Louis Alter's Manhattan Serenade, later used in The Godfather (1972) and Arthur Freed and Nacio Herb Brown's Broadway Rhythm" [1]

[edit] Discussion: does www.recordhall.com meet verifiability requirements?

Per above, a contributor has reinserted the assertion that "In the Tom and Jerry cartoons, each of the character's leitmotifs are inspired by Rhapsody in Blue and other Gershwin works." In response to my request for a citation, he references http://www.recordhall.com/george-gershwin-biography.html . Does this adequately meet the policies of WP:V and WP:CITE? Note that www.recordhall.com appears to be a Wikipedia-like site that allows anonymous contributions, and that no author's identity is available for the article being cited. Dpbsmith (talk) 16:01, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

"The Rhapsody in Blue serves as the soundtrack Tom and Jerry cartoons. It has been said that each of the character's leitmotifs are inspired by Rhapsody in Blue and other Gershwin works."--Urthogie 16:32, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
My problem is not the wording of the statement, but that the cited "source" being anonymous, and apparently being another Wiki that anybody can edit. Dpbsmith (talk) 17:37, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
From my investigation of the page, and the site, the bio seems to be totally without either a stated author or any other meta-information. As such, I think it's only use is as evidence that someone, somewhere on the net, has a some time, made the statements it makes. It is wholly unacceptable as evidence for any factual assertion. Keep looking. JesseW, the juggling janitor 18:45, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
If (as seems to be claimed above) the included text merely makes a claim that "It has been said", I would strongly argue that such a statement, while appropriatly sourced(someone apparently did say it) is inappropriate for the article, as it is unimportant and irrelevant. I would point to WP:NPOV(the section on not using "Some have said"), and Wikipedia:AWT. It's a random website; what it says is not factually reliable, and the fact that it says it is not notable or important. Sorry. JesseW, the juggling janitor 18:50, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
Very well. I'm fine with removing the some have said, it has been said, if thats the consensus. Makes sense.--Urthogie 18:58, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Tom and Jerry/Gershwin

I'm settling for weasel-wording for now:

Scott Bradley's scores for the Tom and Jerry cartoons are sometimes perceived[2] as reminiscent of Gershwin. The score for Mouse in Manhattan (1945) in particular has been described as "Gershwinesque" (although it is actually based on Louis Alter's "Manhattan Serenade"[3]], which is also an alternate title for the film).

I'm not really happy with a http://www.recordhall.com/george-gershwin-biography.html as a source, but I think it's OK for the statement that the Tom and Jerry music is a) "sometimes perceived" as resembling b) Gershwin generally. I don't think anyone has yet pinned source citations that would make a connection with the Rhapsody in Blue specifically, and certainly not to the characters' leitmotifs referencing the Rhapsody in Blue. Dpbsmith (talk) 11:05, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] RfC

I'll offer this analysis of Richard Wagner and Star Wars as the standard for a convincing description of a serious composer's influence on a piece of modern popular culture. The reference cited here doesn't go into anything approaching that depth. Since it's a superficial statement from a dubious source and it fails to quote anyone involved in the production of the Tom and Jerry cartoons, I'd leave it out of the Wikipedia article altogether. It could return in future revisions if the editor finds better sources. Regards, Durova 19:56, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Snipping "Tom and Jerry"

I'm snipping

  • Scott Bradley's scores for the Tom and Jerry cartoons are sometimes perceived[4] as reminiscent of Gershwin. The score for Mouse in Manhattan (1945) in particular has been described as "Gershwinesque" (although it is actually based on Louis Alter's 1928 "Manhattan Serenade"[5], which is also an alternate title for the film).

I just don't accept http://www.recordhall.com/george-gershwin-biography.html as a reliable source. And nobody's come up with any specific connection to the "Rhapsody in Blue."

And I've made a point of listening to a few Tom and Jerry cartoons recently, including Manhattan Serenade, and frankly, I don't buy it. I believe what people are hearing is music that is composed in a "Jazz Age" idiom (by "Jazz Age" I'm thinking of the likes Paul Whiteman and the other mostly-white big-band jazz-inspired music of the 1920s and 30s). The music that Leroy Shield composed for the Laurel and Hardy films has many elements of that idiom; all the music played by Whiteman at the Aeolian Hall concert, not just "Rhapsody in Blue" ihas elements of that idiom; Ferde Grofe's "Mississippi Suite" has elements of that idiom. What Gershwin did was to use the contemporary pop-music idiom in a sustained, sophisticated way in a longish piece of orchestral music.

I did not hear any "leitmotifs" for individual characters that were carried over from one cartoon to another.

"Mouse in Manhattan" of course does not just sound like Louis Alter, it is Louis Alter. I've listened to several recordings of "Manhattan Serenade" though nothing else by Alter. I'm not enough of a musicologist to judge how close a resemblance there is between Alter and Gershwin. I think, myself, OK, perhaps an influence, maybe something more than both just immersed in the same musical idioms. (I suspect a lot of things sounded like the Rhapsody in Blue for a few years after it came out).

I may not have listened to enough or to the right cartoons, but the ones that were not Mouse in Manhattan did not sound "Gershwinesque" to me at all.

There was a sort of tradition, that I connect with the name "Silly Symphonies" for the early Disney cartoons, of occasionally basing a cartoon on a (butchered) familiar bit of "pop" classical music, the sort of thing I imagine a town band might have played on a Sunday afternoon in the bandstand, and I think there are other cartoons that have a strong connection to one particular piece of music.

Anyway, I'm prepared to be convinced about the Tom and Jerry music, but I want a citable source before this goes into the article

Personally, at the moment I do not even buy a specific connection to Gershwin, let alone to the Rhapsody in Blue. I think this is rather like someone listening to the Max Steiner score of "Gone with the Wind," and saying, "Oh! that sounds just like Rachmaninoff's Second Piano Concerto." The Max Steiners and Erich Korngolds and John Williamses used classical idioms in their film scores for serious films; the Scott Bradleys and Carl Stallingses used 1920s-1930s pop-music, "jazz age," idioms (with considerable dashes of familiar classical music). But as I say, I'm fully prepared to be convinced otherwise. Dpbsmith (talk) 11:15, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Sarah!!!!!

[edit] Al Capone's favorite tune?

I'm removing

until someone can provide a verifiable source for this interesting-if-true fact. It's been labelled as needing a citation for... months? A long time, anyway. Dpbsmith (talk) 13:58, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

I'd say this doesn't count as a verifiable source, but it suggests that there is one out there:
"The Green Mill has an enormous amount of history. Founded in 1907, it is the oldest and longest-running jazz club in the country. Gangster Jack "Machine Gun" McGurn used to run the joint in during the Prohibition era, and Al Capone was a frequent visitor at that time. The moment he entered the room, the band would stop whatever tune it was playing and begin Gershwin's "Rhapsody in Blue," Capone's favorite piece."
So don't stop looking, folks. :-) 82.95.254.249 20:44, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Excerpt

What does copyright law say about short excerpts of music recordings? The clarinet opening seems an obvious choice if legal.

There's lots of recordings of classical pieces on wikipedia. You just have to find one that's not copyrighted. DavidRF (talk) 23:57, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] whiteman king of jazz

Most of the work that I've read on Paul Whiteman states that although he was happy to be called the King of Jazz, he didn't invent it for himself, nor did he bandy it about often. His "King of Jazz" status, Benny Goodman's "King of Swing," Elvis Presley's "King of Rock and Roll," Michael Jackson's "King of Pop," and Clark Gable's "King of Hollywood" crown for that matter, were given to them by others and had nothing to do with artistic or historical circumstance and everything to do with ability to sell product. All of these men were talented, perhaps less talented than some others working at the same time and in the same fields, but all were absolutely the kings at the cash register in their respective eras - hence the title. Like others have stated in Whiteman's Wiki page and on this discussion page, he always acknowledged his sources, and 1920s audiences tended to be much broader in their definition of jazz than those of today or even the 1940s. Whiteman, however, couldn't yet make the leap to actually hiring African American musicians. That would wait another decade for Goodman to cross that line.PJtP (talk) 01:23, 17 March 2008 (UTC)