User talk:RGTraynor/Archive1

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Archive This is an archive of former discussions. Please do not edit it. If you wish to revitalize an old topic, bring it up on the active talk page.

Contents

[edit] Ottawa Senators

Do what you want, I just want the space for where the jersey goes to be kept. I haven't gotten around to putting it in there. -- Earl Andrew - talk 16:36, 27 May 2005 (UTC)

It's about it being POV. Im not saying the Ottawa Senators were not the best team of the day, but saying they are would be blatant POV. Saying they were one of the best would be more neutral. -- Earl Andrew - talk 3 July 2005 20:43 (UTC)

[edit] Tampa Bay Area Group

Thanks for catching my mistake re NFL/NHL. As it regards the (St. Petersburg/Tampa Bay Area) appellation, however, it would be easy for someone not a local to be confused by my persistence on this. St. Petersburg is a city in the Tampa Bay area, in the same way St. Paul is a city in the Twin Cities Metropolitan Area. Both Esposito's group and the other group were trying to bring the team to the Thunderdome in St. Petersburg, but they more importantly they were trying to bring the team to the Tampa Bay Area generally (and indeed both would have likely made the decision ultimately made by Esposito to move the Lightning to the Ice Palace in Tampa following the decision to convert the Thunderdome to Tropicana Field). When it comes to our professional sports teams, we in the Tampa bay Area almost universally use "Tampa Bay" as opposed to "St. Petersburg" or "Tampa." As someone who grew up in St. Petersburg, I would love for my hometown to get exclusive credit as the first home of the Lightning, but it is much, much more common and better form to refer to the group as another "Tampa Bay" group. Further, it always "St. Petersburg, Florida," not "Saint Petersburg, Florida." I will revert the page if you have no further issues. ALC Washington 22:02, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

I do, actually. How the residents of the Tampa Bay area perceive themselves isn't really the point. At the time, and subsequently, it was clear in the national press and in THN that there were competing bids from "St. Petersburg" and from "Tampa Bay." What decisions Karmanos' and Rutherford's St. Petersburg group may have made in terms of future venues had they won the bid can only now be speculative and moot. RGTraynor 01:31, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
Though I assume good faith, I would like to look into your claim that the debate was characterized that way further. In the meantime, I will only revert "Saint Petersburg" to "St. Petersburg" (part of the project I was originally working on when I edited the page more substantially). Though I do not recall the competition that way, it was a while ago, and I could very well be wrong in my current recollection. If you have any supporting documentation you'd like to send me way, please feel free (via my talk page). Thanks. ALC Washington 01:44, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
None unless you feel like posting your address and don't mind 14 year old THN clippings ... RGTraynor 11:47, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Founded Dates and Records

1)Ok... I wasn't too sure about Springfield. If its from league mergers it continous. I'm using that rule with the "I-6" teams. What's your verdict on Hershey Bears? I just don't want someone insisting the The ECHL Rivermen are the new AHL Rivermen. They are related in name only.

2) What's the defacto minimum games played for Goalie stats?

ccwaters 13:30, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

With the Indians it was continuous, although the waters were muddied. Even during the times Eddie Shore had the AHL franchise in other cities, he sited a "Springfield Indians" team in lower minor leagues. Then you have franchise dormancies which can last forever -- I remember that the AHL Moncton Hawks franchise (which started in 1987) was the old Boston Braves franchise that folded in 1974. The Bruins had paid a nominal fee ever since just on the offhand chance they'd need an AHL franchise they controlled, and sold it off to Winnipeg thirteen years later. The Springfield Indians/Springfield Falcons were two separate franchises, but the Falcons had the exact same Hartford Whaler players as the previous season, because the Whalers thought a great deal of having their affiliate 30 minutes north, whatever the local ownership was.

Ultimately, we have de facto vs. de jure here. Myself, I'd be more sympathetic to the notion that the current AHL Rivermen have a lot more in common with the IHL-ECHL Rivermen than they do with the Springfield Indians or the Worcester Icecats. Probably hockey historians much wiser than we would have shouting matches over which was which.

As far as goalie stats go, the NHL uses 25 games as the minimum for inclusion in a season's leaderboard. RGTraynor 16:57, August 13, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Team lead in scoring.....

Can you give me other players that lead their team in scoring for four straight seasons? I just want to know 0459--15-Aug-05

Are we talking ever or just recently? I'm genuinely quite astonished. Mario Lemieux led the Pens SIX straight seasons. Phil Esposito, Jaromir Jagr, Gordie Howe and Wayne Gretzky each won four or more straight Ross Trophies, never mind merely leading their teams in scoring that stretch. Rick Middleton did it for Boston in the early Eighties, Guy Lafleur ran it up to six straight for the Habs, Mike Bossy did six straight for the Islanders, Andy Bathgate did EIGHT straight for the Rangers, Brett Hull's done it for St. Louis, Howe had streaks of nine straight AND four straight for the Red Wings, Steve Yzerman did seven straight for the Wings ... heck, Gretzky did it with both Edmonton AND Los Angeles. Turn the clock back, and Sweeney Schriner did it for the New York Americans, while Nels Stewart made it six straight for the Montreal Maroons and Cy Denneny made it seven straight for the Senators. This is actually a pretty common feat in NHL history, and a cursory look at the records reveals it. RGTraynor 10:09, August 15, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] RE: Los Angeles Kings - Hall of Famers

I noticed you removed Paul Coffey, Grant Fuhr, Harry Howell, Bob Pulford, Terry Sawchuk, Steve Shutt and Billy Smith from the list of Hall of Famers who played for the Kings. Just wanted to let you know that according to the Hockey Hall of Fame, all of these players were indeed elected to the Hockey Hall of Fame, and numerous sources, including the Los Angeles Kings Media Guide, show that they all played for the Kings. Please refer to the citations I posted in the article for reference. Thanks! Gmatsuda 08:07, 10 September 2005 (UTC) moved from userpage ∞Who?¿? 08:23, 10 September 2005 (UTC)

There is a consensus standard for NHL Team Pages for Hall of Fame citations. Briefly put, players listed in HOF sections must have played a significant number of games for the cited team and that their play for the team have a material impact on the players' election to the HHOF. Please see Wikipedia:WikiProject_Ice_Hockey/Team_pages_format if you have any questions. RGTraynor 08:43, September 10, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Bench Clearing Brawl

In the Blazers article, I didn't actually write that part about the bench clearing brawl. I had just copy pasted it from the original Cowboys article that was on wiki to start with. It was getting late that night when I merged those articles and I had gotten a bit lazy in regards to copy pasting from the previous wiki articles. But you did a great job at cleaing up. Thanks! Masterhatch 15:02, 10 September 2005 (UTC)

Oh, good heavens, no, I knew you cut and pasted all those entries; a chunk of the Screaming Eagles section I had written myself. In any event, your writing style (or fact checking, for that matter) isn't remotely close to that sloppy, but I figured since I was there I'd clean up a bit. RGTraynor 19:26, September 10, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Blackhawks vs. Black Hawks

I have been aware of the difference but here on wikipedia i see that before '86 it seems to be a mixed usage. I am going to surf through many of the hockey sites and see if I can "fix" it; not that it matters too much but it is nice to have it right (as so many other sites on the Net are wrong). Most of the seasons are wrong (partly my fault in copy pasting) and a few other places such as player articles are wrong too. I will be diligent and start fixing the seasons over the course of the next couple of days. Masterhatch 17:57, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

Oh, absolutely; in fact, it was in doing those playoff additions for those early NHL seasons that I saw "Blackhawks" used pre-86. At the time I thought, "Eh, I'll catch up with it later," but yeah, it's something on which we all need to keep a weather eye. RGTraynor 23:59, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] More missing info

There are a few "?" on the 1920-21 NHL season, 1921-22 NHL season, 1924-25 NHL season, and 1925-26 NHL season. If one of your books has the missing dates and scores, could ya fill in the missing data? That would be great! Thanks Masterhatch 02:42, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

Gah, sorry about that; just made the edits. RGTraynor 13:19, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
Thanks! Me so happy now. Masterhatch 14:15, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Jean-Paul Parise vs. J.P. Parise

Personally, I don't care which is used. When I add to the team player lists, I also check links. While I was adding to the List of Toronto Maple Leafs players I had noticed that the majority of links used his full name and only the North stars used J.P. When players are red linked, I look and see which is the most common name used (if more than one name is used) on Wiki and switch the minority names to the most common one. That makes thinks simpler if someone creates an article for that player (all the links are on the right track before the player article is created). Since, as you pointed out, J.P. is more common outside of Wikipedia, I will switch all the links to J.P.Masterhatch 10:15, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

Done. Now all the red links use J.P. and not his full name. Masterhatch 10:26, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
Mm, thanks. In certain ways, it's the danger of using Wikipedia-only sources; Wikipedia is so often at the mercy of the first person to get his licks in. Jean-Paul's certainly his real name, and I have no idea where "JP" started, but it's what was used throughout his career, everywhere from radio broadcast to the hockey cards I still have (grins) RGTraynor 12:55, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
I think the same goes for Jean-Pierre Dumont. I've never heard him called that. Its always been J.P. ccwaters 02:35, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Ugly current squad templates

RGTraynor, have you thought about putting your vote in to have those horrible templates deleted? Masterhatch 12:17, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

Oo, I didn't know I could. I'll get right on it. RGTraynor 23:01, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
We have another ugly template at NHL. It's like people are falling in love with ugly templates and then trying to force them everywhere. Masterhatch 01:25, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
I just had a look at other leagues (EarlAndrew's template promted me to do that) and I just realised that those ugly templates we just got rid of out of the NHL and CFL are thriving in the NBA. And that really ugly template I removed off of NHL is in many other leagues. But of course, the NHL isn't those other leagues and just because they are all jumping off the same bridge doesn't mean we have to to.Masterhatch 01:44, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
Nope, any more than I bought the argument for the ugly Senators team box that it's what was used in soccer leagues. RGTraynor 07:41, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Nose Nuggets

a user by the name of Nosenuggets has been going around making drastic changes to all of the team pages. Some of the changes are good, but a lot of them are bad. The worst thing he is doing is his spreading of the "white space". take a look at the Montreal Canadiens for a perfect example. Anyways, i have reverted some of the white spaces out, but every time i do, he puts them back in. I see that other people have also taken out his "white space" but agian he puts it back in. What are your thoughts on this matter? Masterhatch 09:22, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

Ugh, that's not attractive at all. I'll revert that myself, but I figure we ought to flag this guy down first, and if he doesn't feel like following format to go for the arbitration provisions. RGTraynor 16:20, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
Some of the team pages (like Les Canadiens) are heavy on the graphics. That is why there should be white spaces. As for the color boxes on the teams, they refelct the "home" jersey (or primary) team color. For example, the Philadelphia Flyers wear black at home, hence the black box at the top of the info box with orange lettering. Agreed? NoseNuggets 7:41 AM US EDT Oct 7 2005.
Err, no. For one thing, your color choices don't always reflect the actual home uniform colors -- Edmonton comes to mind -- and it strikes me at least that readability is significantly more important than aping home jersey colors down to the background and trim. For another, plainly from the number of users doing reverts, many do not agree that there should be more white spaces. But most importantly, we have a consensus Team Pages Format used throughout the NHL and AHL entries, to which those entries should conform, and it's quite improper to charge in and alter them unilaterally without even an attempt at gaining consensus. I've linked to that page before, and you're certainly welcome to make your pitch over there if you think you can gain a consensus for your ideas. RGTraynor 16:09, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] 1966-67 NHL season

First, I want to say good job on the stats for Lester Patrick on the List of NHL one gamers. I guess hockeydb's stats were a little off, eh? It's now kinda funny because there is more information about Patrick on the list of NHL one gamers than there is on his actualy article. Second, for some reason, hockeydb doesn't list the PIM for the 1966-67 NHL season. I checked a few other sites and they too were lacking. Do any of your books have those PIM stats? The table is built, it is just a matter of plugging in the minutes. As for the IP address who was working on the rosters, he seems to have stopped and he didn't respond to my attempts at communication. Anyways, I am going to list those for deletion. Masterhatch 14:44, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

HockeyDB is a great and convenient resource, but it lacks in accuracy a lot of the time. I do have those numbers and I'll plug them in right now. And yeah, as far as Patrick goes, I put his page on watch so I would be reminded to do up an article. Lester Patrick is one of the genuine giants of hockey history, both on and off the ice, and it's damn near criminal for his entry here to be neglected. RGTraynor 19:10, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
RE:hockey logos for the teams. Over the past two days, i went through and finished all the season standings for all the seasons prior to the seventies. I just wanted to get them done. As you saw with the 1967-68 NHL season i put all the correct logos in. Many of the logos are wrong from the 40s onward and I know that. I just wanted to get the standings over and done with (it was annoying me that I had been so lazy with the seasons of late). Today i had uploaded all the right logos for the teams prior to the seventies (uploading is tedious) and I will backtrack tonight when i finish work and fix all the logos. As you may have noticed with the logos, i put the dates in use on the file name to make it easier. Of course, if you beat me to it, well, you beat me to it. But that is my "to-do" for tonight. Also, as you may have noticed, the seventies havent been touched yet. I will try and do a season a day over the next ten days so that there will be no more redlinks for the seasons. Masterhatch 05:57, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
Oh, I'm not fretting. I just saw that one set off and figured I'd fix it. I know we'll get to things as we get to them. RGTraynor 14:38, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
I just finished back tracking to the late forties and then I noticed that different sites say different things for different logos. I am going to leave it where I left off as it looks pretty good. If someone comes and corrects the odd logo or two prior to the late 40s, all the better but I am done with that. Now to move forward and take care of the 70s. Masterhatch 16:14, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] I'm calling upon your help yet again

I thought I had it all figured out, but now I am clueless again. Is it "Saskatoon Shieks" or "Saskatoon Sheiks"? The proper way to spell "Sheik" is in fact "sheik" [1] and "Shiek" comes up empty on Dictionary.com [2]. hockeyDB spells it Shiek and I was sure that hockeyDB simply made one of many spelling errors. Today, after finishing 1974-75 NHL season, I was going to create the sheiks article and so I started my research. After running across this page [3], I all of a sudden became unsure which spelling was right. That site uses both spellings on the same page!!! I will hold off on creating that article until I know which spelling is right. A google test for "Saskatoon Shieks" gets 235 hits. "Saskatoon Sheiks" gets 356. Thanks in advance! Masterhatch 17:09, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

One more thing, there are some "?" on 1921-22 WCHL season. I couldn't find the Edmonton Eskimos (hockey) stats for that year. All I know is that they came in first. Masterhatch 17:37, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
Not a problem. Charles Coleman used "Sheiks" and I consider him considerably more reliable than most of today's writers, both gifted with an inability to spell and an unwillingness to look things up. I do have the 1922 stats, I'll get right on it. RGTraynor 19:51, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] And yet again

For the 1987-88 NHL season there are a few blank spots in the playoffs for the Bruins and Devils series that need filling. If you have the stats and the time, could you toss those numbers in? thanks! As you will probably notice, I didn't actually add info for the playoffs that year, I just changed the tables but I noticed that not a single game went into OT. That can't be correct. Thanks for your help! Masterhatch 05:28, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Wayne Gretzky

Judging by his last post, I think he is finished his trolling on the Gretzky article. If you want to report him, don't hack out the trolling. Leave it there until the people you report him to see it. If you aren't going to report him, just hack it out. I had a look at his contributes and he seems to be trolling on other sites too. Masterhatch 17:11, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

Did you report that IP address? It doesn't matter anymore. He used a different IP address today on the Gretzky article and the other articles he has been "toying" with. I am just going to remove that trolling rant off the gretzky talk. Masterhatch 14:41, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Mediation

Hello, Nlu has filed an RFM here. If you are unaware of what mediation is, see WP:M. Then go to the above link and accept or reject the case. It is normally recommended that you accept, in order to cease edit warring, and to get us to a fair compromise. Once the three of you accept the case, I will act as the mediator, unless you choose to reject me in favor of another mediator. Cheers. Redwolf24 (talk) 21:30, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

I would appreciate it if you went to Special:Preferences and set an e-mail address. However if you don't wanna set an address, we can do mediation over IRC or on-wiki. Reply at Wikipedia:Requests for mediation/Derek Sanderson Jeter. Thanks, Redwolf24 (talk) 22:58, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
Hi. On the subject of this Derek Jeter mediation, there was an agreement between some of the complainants on both sides to accept revised wording. A 'Trivia' section has been added which currently includes the text;
    • "While it has been reported that he was named after 1970s Boston Bruins' hockey player Derek Sanderson [4] this information is not confirmed by the biography on Jeter's site or any other verifiable direct source."
You haven't commented on this change so it is not clear whether you accepted it or just haven't visited the page recently. The mediator is suggesting that this should go to RfC, apparently in an effort to restore wording more in line with what you had before, but I wanted to check with you if the current version is ok, needs further tweaking, or is not acceptable. --CBD T C @ 13:00, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Montreal Canadiens

Hello RGTraynor, as I respect & trust your hockey knowledge, I ask for your opinon. Lately I've been in an edit conflict with anon Users: 66.131.149.19 & 69.157.184.205 over Kovalev & Souray being alternate captains along with Rivet & Zednik. They say it's only Rivet & Zednik, I say it's all four. I'm just not sure anymore, what do you think. GoodDay 22:11, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

I've no idea, actually. I'd check out the Habs website myself. Certainly a team can only dress two, but I suppose the 'A's could rotate among as many players as the team desires. The degree to which players are "officially" alternate captains has always been a great deal more hazy than many people would wish. RGTraynor 08:14, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] disagree on wiki-wording

I am a lifelong historian of the great game of hockey Going back to the 50's when the game was actually a game and not a business. I am not naive enough to fall into the 'greatest of all time' arguements because they are simply not valid. Example: to say that Wayne Gretzky or Mario Lemieux are the 'greatest' players of all time is simply not a correct statement. No TRUE hockey fan should ever fall for that kind of rubbish either. Why are they not the greatest of all time?.....because they didn't play 'for all time' The greatest in the last quarter century....SURE, now there's a possibility. Not too many can argue that. But they(and other elite notables like Messier, Yzerman, Francis etc) did not play in the 40's against Schmidt or Apps. They didn't play in the 50's against Belliveau or Howe or Bathgate. And they didn't play against Mikita or Bucyk in the 60's. It's like saying Patrick Roy is the greatest goalie of all time simply because he has the most wins. It just isn't a valid statement and should not be found in the Wiki-Encyclopedia, If the Wiki Encyclopedia is to remain a decent and respected source of information. To claim anyone as the greatest of all time 'at anything' simply CANNOT be done. Whether they are in sports or music or art or politics or journalism etc etc. We both have a love of the game and I am sure that a 'proper' wording to descibe certain players will eventually arise among the hockey contributors on this interesting and always changing webpage.

All that may be so, and you may have a valid argument there, but we are not talking whether a certain player is the greatest of all time. We are talking about whether a certain player is widely acknowledged to be the greatest player of all time. Orr didn't even get a plurality on the issue a couple decades ago, before Gretzky's career got underway -- I'm minded that Stan Fischler ranked Orr 13th all-time (with Howe first) back in 1984, stating with some justification that a superstar who played eight full seasons couldn't be legitimately ranked over a superstar who played a quarter century.
Does saying that Orr OR Gretzky is the greatest of all time violate POV? Yes. Does saying that Gretzky is generally regarded as the greatest of all time do so? No, because most hockey experts and commentators do claim he is. I am comfortable with that phrasing. RGTraynor 19:58, 30 December 2005 (UTC)


-- I still tend to disagree. There are areas in Europe that could care less about the NHL and if you ask 'experts' or commentators there who the 'greatest' was/is they may name a player that neither you or I have even heard of. A player from a different era who simply did not get the chance to play in front of an NHL audience. I do know one thing. I still love the game despite it's degeneration into a 'business' over the last 25 years. Up until this season, it just turned into the dullest hockey I've seen in 40 years. The new rules are helping some. Let's hope they just stick with it so we'll all be entertained by the sport once again. Oh, and, uh, please don't quote Stan Fischler on anything to do with hockey....the man's a dolt.(he still thinks the game was invented in the U.S.....PLEASE!, give me a break)

I have to go coach my AAA Juve's now, Take Care.

And keep your stick on the ice.

PS forgot to mention: I expect you have a great hockey library but just in case you want another...and if you dont have it already:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/189212985X/ref=ase_webmill0c33-20/104-3606952-4618325?s=books&v=glance&n=283155&tagActionCode=webmill0c33-20

Considered by some as the greatest hockey book of all time...  :) color="green">Talk]]), 15:44, 4 January 2006.

[edit] Bobby Orr

Let's see: Bobby Orr is NOT arguably the greatest Hockey Player of All-time; yet; Wayne Gretzky is considered by MOST to be the greatest Hockey Player of All-Time. I find this highly inconsistent (and disingenious) on your part. What is your proof that WG is considered by MOST (an highly inaccurate sum I might add ...) to be the Greatest ? I will delete this POV until you provide proof TrulyTory 18:32, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

I'm surprised you are having trouble wrapping your head around this. Whether or not Orr (or Gretzky, for that matter) was the greatest player of all time is a subjective POV we can't actually say on Wikipedia. Whether Orr (or Gretzky, as to that) is considered the greatest player of all time isn't subjective at all; it is a quantifiable, verifiable fact. I'm likewise surprised you need proof of this: stop for a moment and forget that you think Orr is the greatest ever. Ask yourself, honestly ask yourself, who does the hockey world consider the greatest ever? THN's panel of fifty experts -- broadcasters, ex-players, journalists, general managers, coaches, statisticians -- picked Gretzky first. The NHL gave Gretzky honors no one else -- Orr included -- has received (has #4 been retired league-wide, for instance?). If I actually felt like doing it, I could give you citations and quotes until the cows came home. By contrast, how many verifiable, current quotes could you obtain citing Orr over Gretzky or Howe?
The funny thing is that while you toss around phrases like "wikinazi", you don't actually know my position on the subject, because as a Wikipedia editor that position is irrelevant and counterproductive. In the meantime, since you and Mr Pyles are new to Wikipedia, take a gander at the following: Wikipedia:Edit war and Wikipedia:Wikipedia is not#Wikipedia_is_not_a_soapbox RGTraynor 21:24, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
RGTraynor, Although I agree with you on this whole Mr Pyles and TrulyTory Bobby Orr/Wayne Gretzky, however going as far as saying is that TrulyTory is a sockpuppet might be going a little bit far. Although it is not out of the question, it does not help the situation to post accusations of those nature, especially when their isn't much evidence to support it. Croat Canuck 06:24, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
Certainly more evidence than Tory/Pyles has managed. Their tactics seem to be to proclaim POV!, misrepresent the positions of the people they characterize as enemies and wikinazis, demand evidence, and then ignore or disparage the evidence when it duly appears. I have repeatedly invited them to come up with some evidence of their own; they have repeatedly refused, while characterizing their position in terms of battles and war. I am not looking forward to the subsequent holy wars of these folk, and their ignorance of the concept that Wikipedia is built around consensus. RGTraynor 14:34, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
I am not associated with TrulyTory. He simply has the same opinion that I, and many others(judging by the history of the page) have. That the word 'most' implies 'fact' where fact cannot be proven. I do not agree with TrulyTory as far as trying to hawk and edit over and over. Nor have I encouraged it. I have tried to use the talk pages as much as possible to plead for the case which I feel is a valid one. And I will continue to do so. I have also refrained from making any corrections to the WG page until today when someone used the word 'all' which just made he disputed sentence blatantly false.(and at least that is a point everyone would agree on)

[edit] Quick Question about Hockey Bios

  • Rather than chase down just anyone in the Wiki-hockey community, I'd thought I'd put this question to someone who I've had a spirited debate with on the subject. I notice a few bios here and there that contain info which is, more or less, pointless. I'll use Randy Burridge as one that I've seen recently. You'll notice a lot of "While playing for Team A, he played with Player O, Player P and Player Q. And then he played for Team B and played with Player X, Player Y and Player Z" These 'played withs' are just fluff info in many cases. Say, in Burridge's bio...listing Charlie Simmer as a teammate is pertinent(perhaps) as it was him that gave him his nickname. What is the concensus in the Wiki-Hockey group when it comes to these sorts of bios? Again, in this example, the article is already a stub. Reducing it is really not that big of a deal unless it's a practice being done to clean up all the bios in the same manner. Your thoughts? Mr Pyles
There isn't really one in that particular case, although in general I agree with you that trimming meaningless fluff is a virtue. In the case of Burridge's particular bio, it's wasted words to say that he finished second in team scoring to Hall of Famer Pat Lafontaine; just mentioning that he came second in scoring ought to be enough. Of course, a lot of these stub bios just plain need rewriting -- again using Burridge, it's plain that it was written by a Sabre homer, because his career in Buffalo was less significant even than his time as a Capitol, never mind as a Bruin -- and you might as well go for it. (Although in looking carefully back at the article's history, to what you're referring's probably the version before Croat Canuck revised it, yes? If so, his edits are on target in wiping out all of those extemporaneous teammates.) RGTraynor 17:56, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
I'm a Sabre homer and even I see it as just filling empty space. It's easy expanding some of the more elite bios for players like Glenn Hall, Red Kelly or Roger Crozier. Players like Burridge are hard workering chaps who play with a lot of soul and passion for the game....but there's hundreds of players who fit that description and sometime's just coming up with enough intersting info for a stub is hard. If I see a 'Burridge' here 'n there I'll try to clean it up. Maybe with more luck than Croat Canuck had with ol' Randy. Thanks ~Mr Pyles
Pretty much; I agree with you. As time permits, I'm working my way through less-than-superstar ex-Bruins, but what I'm revising or creating are the Ken Hodges and Bill Cowleys of the world, not the third-liners, however much like Burridge they did their part in their day. Even with that, there are a lot of famous Hall of Famers with stubs -- it bothers me, and I had damn better get on with it, for instance, that Lester Patrick's got a measly stub. RGTraynor 19:18, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] List of players with 1000 points

About Brind'Amour, although I believe he won't make it, he still has a decent shot of making, as he is currently averaging point-per-game and who knows, he could get on a hot streak and get the 53 points he needs just to get in there, and with the players like Staal, Whitney and Stillman playing like their playing who knows? His career high in points is 97, and although he is older he still could potentially reach those numbers with the season he has had so far.

Like I said, I doubt it, but I'd hate if we dropped the ball on this one and Brind'Amour somehow dug deep and got there. Chelios was ahead of him with 914 points going into this season, but you and I both know he'll never make that this season. Also, in reference to your above discussion with Mr Pyles, I'm going to be working on improving articles of hall-of-famers from the 70's, 80's and 90's, and I do agree that Hall of Famers should get higher priority over other player bios. Croat Canuck 19:01, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Mm, but it isn't as if we get gold stars if he does. Brind'Amour's on track to fall twenty points short, and that's a hell of a lot to make up with less than half the season left. Even if he was on track to make it, there's a lot of hockey left, and speculation's a policy violation. RGTraynor 19:36, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
Ha! No we don't get gold stars, but that would be great if we did. I guess you are right though. Next time you take someone off the end of a chart, remember not to take the end of it, because when you took off Brind Amour you also took off the thing that ended the table, and then it got a little screwed up. I'll take him off myself this time. Croat Canuck 20:27, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
Urp, sorry about that!
tis okay, I used my superpowers to fix it. Croat Canuck

[edit] hockey violence

Regarding the merger of Violence in ice hockey: the merge tag was placed there about just about two months ago and no one has objected to it. The merge category is backlogged out of all recognition. We need to get the uncontested merges out of there. If you want to dispute the merge, please let me know. Otherwise I will revert it to its merged state in a couple of days. Kerowyn 11:34, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] an attempt to standardise

Hello RGTraynor! Long time no talk. I am not sure of your viewpoint when it comes to the use of diacritics for hockey articles, but i know you are a reasonable, level-headed guy. Can you have a look here and throw your two bits in? Thanks in advance! Masterhatch 20:24, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Al hamilton

That fact about handing the captains jersey to wayne is true he is my uncle and i wanted to add to his wikipedia.. Could you please add it back.

Unfortunately, if it is not independently verifiable, it doesn't belong on Wikipedia in the first place. Even so, is it notable? Hamilton's article is a stub as it is, and there are surely biographical or career notes significantly more notable than whether Hamilton personally handed his own Oilers' captain's jersey to Gretzky. There's certainly no succession involved; Gretzky's stint as Oilers' captain started three years after Hamilton retired and seven after he had last been captain. RGTraynor 06:16, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

If you were al Hamilton and found your name on wikipedia he would appreciate that he was the last captain of the oilers before Gretzky, give him a call if you want.... Why would i just make up a stat like that

If I was Al Hamilton and I found out that the Wikipedia article on me claimed I was the last captain of the Oilers before Gretzky, I hope I'd take the trouble to correct that, because he wasn't. Glen Sather and Paul Shmyr captained the Oilers in the WHA after Hamilton. Ron Chipperfield was the team's captain the first NHL season, followed by Lee Fogolin the next two seasons. It's important to get one's facts straight before making Wikipedia entries. RGTraynor 06:25, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] old stat question...

Hi... I made a article for Randy MacGregor... hockeydb lists him playing in Austria for half a season. http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php3?pid=6419 Can you clarify that? What team and league? ccwaters 22:47, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Got nothing, I'm sorry. Total Hockey doesn't even list him being in Austria, and I can think of few records from European hockey in that time from insignificant leagues like Austria's that have come to us. I've got a small listing of the top players for the top five teams in the Alpenliga, but of course MacGregor's time there was insignificant. RGTraynor 00:59, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
Thanks anyways... ccwaters 01:05, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Curious

Hi, just wondering... what does "Bugseen Havch" mean? -- ran (talk) 20:13, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

Basically it's Mongolian for "Go F*** yourself." RGTraynor 20:18, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Les Habs

Hi, I just got this email back from Liam Maguire

I’ve got all three volumes of that set. It’s a fantastic compilation of material no question about it however I don’t recall reading that particular association. Unfortunately Mr. Coleman has numerous errors in the books although most of them to my knowledge are incorrect numbers, typos, etc. This is obviously something different. To my knowledge the Montreal Canadiens were an expansion franchise first and foremost and not a franchise like the Portland Rosebuds who became Chicago or the Victoria Cougars who became the Detroit Cougars or the New York Americans who were the Hamilton Tigers who were the Quebec Bulldogs. The Canadiens were a separate entry, unto themselves. To the best of my knowledge and I think Michel backs that up with his research.

Liam Maguire

I noticed that my local library has the Coleman book, so I'll check it out myself. Thanks, Lorne lpearlis@rogers.com

Coleman certainly has some typos and some items for which just plain superior research came through in the succeeding years, but his account of the NHA franchise shifts is detailed and serves as the foundation of modern hockey scholarship. If you've more accurate research, I'd like to see the cites myself. (Not to mention that despite popular opinion, the Rosebuds did not "become" Chicago, nor the Cougars Detroit, and the Amerks franchise was awarded months before Hamilton's was revoked. RGTraynor 20:06, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Teemu Selanne

An admin just abused his powers and without discussion move protected the Teemu Selanne article. It pisses me off that all these people keep adding the diacritics calling the English spelling a "misspelling". None of them have yet to come up with a convincing argument for the inclusion of diacritics yet they keep edit warring by adding them. What part of "nonEnglish characters" do they not understand? Anyways, I am getting frustrated with their refusal to come up with anything other than It's misspelt!!! Masterhatch 04:31, 5 March 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Need Hockey Help

I noticed your intrest in my hockey player template and was wondering if you wanted to help. Although I am a fan, I'm far from being knowlegeable and I'm not really sure on what should be included. thanks --T-rex 01:53, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Easthampton, Massachusetts

For your convenience, I'm cross-posting this to your Talk page (in case you're not monitoring its talk page). In the spirit of cooperation, I will refrain from making any edits until we reach a consensus.

The jist of that section is that important landmarks should be mentioned, not such things as non-notable pizza restaurants and coffee shops. Pizza Wings and Things and Shelburne Falls Coffee Roasters may be busy and successful businesses, but they're not by any stretch of the imagination a landmark or otherwise important point of interest - except perhaps in a travel guide. I lived in E'ton for ~20 years - the businesses I removed are simply not points of interest. I originally left Nini's and the Silver Spoon because they have been there for quite some time and perhaps could be considered historical or a landmark. --AbsolutDan (T a lk) 13:46, 27 March 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Isotolo's Trolling

RGT, I thought I would write, we have never spoke before. I write up most of the hockey league articles from Junior D up to Tier II Junior A. Maybe what Exolon did was not exactly trolling, but this Peter guy is now making personal attacks on me due me trying to break up the argument that you two were engaged in. He wrote the same hotshot warning in mine, and inturn a co-wikipedian very quickly came to my support. This Peter guy just seems to be looking for a fight, although you don't need my suggestions, just laugh him off - he's not worth it. DMighton 19:08, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Quite. Considering that he has not, before or since, participated in any way in any hockey article or discussion on Wikipedia, this guy's behavior is trollish and threadcrapping, and I wonder what led him in the first place to rampage over the discussion here spewing his arrogance around. As you say, though, he isn't worth the bother, and it's just as well his spew was left out of the refactored archive. RGTraynor 04:06, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] SIHR

I just came back to see what you wrote back and I see that you are a member of the SIHR. If you could, could you de me a favour, if it isn't too much? I'm looking for stats like W-L-T records for the Durham Huskies and any Durham team they might have listed there. Could you see if they actually have anything? There is nothing on the net, and the OHA doesn't seem to have a clue. I am having one hell of a time and they are part of my hometown's heritage. DMighton 04:42, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Please? DMighton 19:00, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
I put in an inquiry; we'll see what's afoot. I don't think much will come of it, and you might have to do some legwork with old newspapers. RGTraynor 19:07, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
Alright, thank you, I appreciate it very much. I had seen they had something on their website, thought there might be a chance... if you come up with something, please do tell me. Thanks again. DMighton 21:36, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Logo Problems

Hey I noticed put the NHL logos back onto the main NHL page, and for that, I commend you. The same user took down the logos from the NBA page, which is my main area of contributions. I honestly don't know why he has a problem with using logos as "decorations", but all I can tell you is that I 100% agree with you with the notion of logos as identifyers. Dknights411 06:19, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

I plan to do more besides. From what I saw of this guy's contribution list, he's a deletionist who's going around Wikipedia slashing anything he doesn't understand ... and among other things he doesn't understand is US copyright law. RGTraynor 14:24, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Knee jerk?

The deletion request in question was one user who listed over 50 articles, admitting that some of them probably should not be deleted, and listed no adequate reason for deleting them. Of course I have a knee jerk reaction to that. For great justice. 19:59, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Uh, no. Leaving the Polynesian articles aside, the AfDs I've been seeing today universally give reasons for deletion, and in each and every case you've voted to keep, generally in face of unanimous opposition, and giving no answer for your position beyond ones like "It's a company" or "A free game". What is your basis for alleging that Dannel Gomiller does indeed have a worldwide cult hit? Upon what do you assert Axion Quake's notability? And so on.
That's knee-jerk. RGTraynor 20:33, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

It's not, and I don't know why you'd care if it was. I don't know why you'd care if someone votes against the majority. So what? I don't feel like writing a dissertation - it appears obvious to me, and if someone wants to ignore that, and delete anyway, well, there you go. It wouldn't be the first time. I'm not griping about that, and I don't really see what your complaint is. For great justice. 20:42, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

My complaint -- plainly shared by several others as well -- is that you're spamming the AfD log with Keeps that have no grounding in fact, never mind common sense, and that it could be concluded that you're doing so to be disruptive, given that AfD is governed by consensus. RGTraynor 21:11, 31 March 2006 (UTC)