Talk:Rey-Osterrieth Complex Figure
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[edit] Amazing
Amazing how much the article has developed in just a week. I have formatted references, added minor clarifications and created the image (its not a true copy, I did it myself and mistakes were on porpouse... but I think is good enough). --Garrondo (talk) 10:32, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Image
The image is continously eliminated. Privately I have been told that is becouse it is thought that it is a problem against opacity of the test. Unless this issue is disscussed in talk page and consensus reached I won´t stop reverting such eliminations. If this continues I will ask a for the page to be blocked until such consensus is reached.
Reply: A consensus among whom? International neuropsychological organizations have already decided that the dissemination of images such as those you have uploaded is an unethical practice. Who else needs to be included in this consensus discussion? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.8.210.169 (talk) 17:04, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
Wikipedia has it's own policies and guidelines which do not have to be the same than those organizations. To make a content elimination which does not break copyright or law you have to provide reasons which you had not done yet. It would also be a good idea for you to register so people can address comments to an specific individuals. If it is true that some organizations have reached an agreement on the specific theme here touched you should provide some references. Finally you should specifically defend why is it different to put such image in an encyclopedia compared to scientific articles. There are also a psychology project and a medicine project in wikipedia and it would probably be a good idea to debate the current issue there. Best regards. --Garrondo (talk) 07:17, 30 May 2008 (UTC) (I could be an anonymous editor but I prefer to sign, I have nothing to hide).
Reply: To the best of my knowledge, it is not "some" organizations that have reached this agreement regarding the maintenance of test security, it is most if not all international professional psychological associations which have done so. Certainly both the American and Canadian Code of Ethics for Psychologists have clauses regarding maintaining test security and the responsibility of the psychologist not to release raw test data (including test items) to those who would be unqualified to interpret them. For example, the APA Code of Ethics has two relevant scetions:
9.07 Assessment by Unqualified Persons Psychologists do not promote the use of psychological assessment techniques by unqualified persons, except when such use is conducted for training purposes with appropriate supervision. (See also Standard 2.05, Delegation of Work to Others.)
and more directly to the point:
9.11. Maintaining Test Security The term test materials refers to manuals, instruments, protocols, and test questions or stimuli and does not include test data as defined in Standard 9.04, Release of Test Data. Psychologists make reasonable efforts to maintain the integrity and security of test materials and other assessment techniques consistent with law and contractual obligations, and in a manner that permits adherence to this Ethics Code.
Your own code (IIRC, this would be Spain) has the following statement which would be applicable:
Section II. Of professional competence and the relationship with other professionals:
Article 19
All kinds of strictly psychological material, both in terms of evaluation or intervention/treatment is reserved for the use of Psychologists, and are not made available to others not competent to interpret them. Psychologists ensure proper custody of psychological documents.
To my mind, the best reason for not posting protected (aka copyrited) neuropsychological/psychological test materials in a public forum is that to do so invalidates the test (given that the standardized administration conditions are violated if someone has previous knowledge of most tests, particularly tests designed to assess memory), and the test is then no longer able to be used in evaluating the individual. This has implications for patients, as it means that they can not be thoroughly or accurately assessed if important parts of the test battery cannot be validly administered. This is not a service to them and can result in misdiagnosis, poor treatment recommendations, and a loss of opportunity to improve quality of life as a result.
Posting test items in public forums also means that new and alternate forms of each test must then continually be developed, which costs thousands of dollars and months if not years of effort to develop appropriate norms for each new version. This renders testing materials extremely expensive, and this cost is passed on to the consumer (i.e., the patients). Factoring in the cost of new testing materials on a regular basis onto the time involvement in doing a thorough neuropsychological assessment would rapidly make the cost prohibitive for most people. I personally do not think that activities that result in the creation of barriers to psychological services are in the best interests of anyone.
As to your other point: Public forums (i.e., online encyclopedias) are qualitatively different than scientific journal articles in terms of the ease of availability, the intended audience, and in terms of ethical guidelines set out by most (if not all) psychological associations. In addition, you will notice that only tests intended to be within the public domain (such as the CES-D) have their item content disclosed in scientific journals/books. All copyrighted tests require specific permission to be published, and as a result you will typically not find actual item content posted in the public domain (unless someone has messed up).
On a more pragmatic note, posting protected material in a public forum opens one up to legal action on the part of the holder of the copyright (in this case PAR), as well as possible ethical complaints directed against you to your professional licencing body (if you are a psychologist registered with a professional licensing body). So, although Wikipedia may have its own regulations regarding the content of its forum, psychologists must hold to the highest standards of conduct, which include but are not limited to local, national and international laws governing psychological practice, the relevant professional code of ethics to your area of practice, and to the conventions of practice and conduct commonly held by the profession of psychology.
I understand that you have been approached privately regarding this matter, but that you have insisted that the issues be outlined on this forum. While others within the neuropsychological community understandably feel that this is, in fact, not the correct forum to hold this discussion, I felt that it might be helpful to outline at least some of the relevant issues for your consideration. To my mind this isn't just about being elitist and maintaining rigid control over intellectual territory. This is about what is likely to be harmful to those whom we are entrusted to protect (namely our clients and our future clients). It is also about the violation of our contractual obligations to the companies that develop these testing materials on our behalf (you may or may not have noticed that when you use your professional credentials to order a copyrighted test, there is an agreement that you enter into regarding the maintenance of appropriate test security for that test), and it is about maintaining the integrity of the profession of psychology.
Please note, I actually feel extremely uncomfortable posting about these issues in such a public forum. I genuinely hope that if I have misrepresented any of the issues, or am in error in my understanding of the relevant codes, that others will feel comfortable contacting me so that I may correct any inaccuracies.Cmd2 (talk) 16:41, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
I won't fight any more... I still don't think that an image of ficticious patient violates copyright or ethical issues but I have other better things to do than fight against it. Nevertheless I prefer your reply to a private one since this issue will probably appear again in the future in wikipedia. Best regards. --Garrondo (talk) 14:33, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
