Talk:Revolver (album)

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[edit] Album title

Does anyone know why the album is called "Revolver?" It's something I've wondered about and it'd be nice to have that information in the article. I think the boys mentioned where they got the name "Rubber Soul," so I'm sure there's a similarly interesting rationale in this case. Dr. Ebola 01:54, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

It's a very basic pun on the revolving record - not a joke about guns. I can't remember where I read this, though, or I'd put it in the article. Probably somewhere in the Anthology book.Rayray 13:03, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

How about... a revolving door through which Paul leaves and Billy Shears enters. What's up Dr. Strangelove 14:46, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV

This article has become rather un-NPOV. Beach Boys fans would have quite a lot to say about "this song [Here There and Everywhere] surpasses all of Brian Wilson's attempts", I expect. --Camembert

I agree. Calling "Eleanor Rigby" McCartney's "best use of lyrical imagery" or whatever is pretty damn NPOV. I think that's one of the most overrated songs he ever wrote. -- Goatasaur

I agree, too. Plus the greatest album in rock & roll history, the acme of the Beatles history, and similarly, music history ("similarly"!) - a drooling fan running amok. The qualifications (widely contended etc.) don't help. I think subjective superlatives are a no-no in musical encyclopedia articles.

Also one should be careful with claims of the form 'x invented y' or 'x did y first': many genres of music stem from these very songs (grunge, arena rock, psychedelia among others) - well if that is so, why not go over to Grunge music, Arena rock and Psychedelic music and change each first sentence to "...is a musical genre invented by The Beatles on their album Revolver"? Finally, I agree that "Tomorrow never knows" was a stunningly original track (sic) and ahead of its time, but the claim This is the first sample of any kind is ludicrous - see Musique concrète, for example. In general it is very easy to make that kind of claim, but very hard to verify them - strictly speaking, you would have to check every single recording made in the whole world up to that point... regards, High on a tree 03:30, 20 May 2004 (UTC)

As I was the one with who wrote the "NPOV" things, let me state at the time I was a 17-year-old who just found The Beatles, and Wikipedia was hardly the beast it is today. In fact, it was in its infancy, and I was hoping to give The Beatles a greater presence on the site. So don't berate, high-nosed Wiki people. We all grow up.

[edit] CD era releases

I was thinking of adding something about the CD era releases... and the Japan remastered CDs that aren't available in the US or UK unless via import. I don't even know if this section would be appropriate, but I post it here anyway. I read it somewhere, but cannot for sure remember the source. This is simply from my own memory. If someone feels this is appropriate or even substantial, feel free to update it to better standards, or tell me I can, and then add it to the article! Thanks. PlasticBeat 00:45, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)

==Compact disc era releases==

Like the remainder of the original Beatles' British catalogue, Revolver was originally released on compact disc in 1987. At the same time, the same mastering that was used to produce the new CD was used to produce one last vinyl release. In the years since, their have been numerous calls by consumers to release the original catalogue via newer re-mastering techniques, a la the recently remastered and released Rolling Stones' catalogue.

Additionally, remastering efforts have been undertaken in Japan and produced a new version of the original British catalogue. A new remastered CD version was first released in 1998 and the same remastered version was released on LP in early 2004.

Does anyone know what (if anything) has stopped EMI re-releasing the Beatles catalogue using the 90s Japanese remasters? The vinyl and CD versions sold at present in the UK (and presumably in the US) are still sourced from the much-derided 1987 masters. 217.155.20.163 14:51, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Lennon and McCartney

The article is a bit strange, dividing works of Lennon and McCartney. McCartney was a lot more experimental than people think, heck, he was the only one who actively participated in the avant-garde scene of London. Lennon thought that "avant-garde means shit in French". Also, "Ringo has admitted to contibuting the line 'Father McKenzie, writing the words to a sermon that no-one will hear'" sounds very fishy. The article repeats the average Beatles stereotypes.--Deadworm222 22:13, Mar 21, 2005 (UTC)

Ringo mentioned that he contributed that line in an interview on Friday Night with Jonathan Ross last October.--Nick R 14:55, 4 May 2005 (UTC)

The writing of Eleanor Rigby has a long story to it (told in the Eleanor Rigby (song) article). I don't think it's relevant to pinpoint that single fact. If anything, I think the fact that George contributed "Ah, look at all the lonely people" is more important. -- LodeRunner 23:10, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

The whole article strikes me as a bit disorganized, though its NPOV problems could be worse. Trying to proceed along various "themes" isn't working - it just makes for a disjointed read and for sentences that seemingly have nothing to do with the paragraphs they're in. Maybe there should be a song-by-song discussion to work in all the trivia, and a separate section dealing with the album's reception and influence? - robotsarered

[edit] Inconsistency! Ack!

I was about to edit the "American Release" section, but there's weirdness - I was going to gloss over the reference to "Michelle is Beautiful" as maybe it's referring to the song Michelle, but since it says "As three of its tracks..." rather than the 4 that are mentioned, I have to ask...therefore, could someone confirm the "Michelle" vs. "Michelle is Beautiful" thing, and was it 14 or 15 tracks that were on the original? I'm very tempted to edit this section anyway, but while I am a huge Beatles fan, I don't know enough about US vs. UK releases to make this kind of edit. Thanks. StopTheFiling 19:59, July 12, 2005 (UTC)

I have removed the reference to "Michelle is Beautiful", as it does not describe any Beatles song. The Beatles' song "Michelle" does not appear on "Yesterday & Today", nor is it on "Revolver". It was included on both the UK and US versions of "Rubber Soul", and I suspect that someone added the erroneous song title for reasons that do not involve the Beatles. --DrSlaw 21:44, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Credit for Leslie speaker idea

The current version says Townshend solved the problem by splicing a line from the recording console into the studio's Leslie speaker, giving Lennon's vocal its ethereal filtered quality -- although he was subsequently reprimanded by the studio management for doing so. What is the source for this? Lewisohn doesn't state exactly who had this idea, but he only quotes Emerick and Martin about it; one gets the impression that it was Emerick's idea. regards, High on a tree 01:36, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Vandalism ???

Dan East has removed a small refinement I made to the section on Tomorrow Never Knows, citing it as vandalism.

"Vandalism" is hardly a fair assessment of what I wrote. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia%3ADealing_with_vandalism: >>Any good-faith effort to improve the encyclopedia, even if misguided or ill-considered, is not vandalism."

I made a slight amendement to the text (a sentence or two) to the effect that TNK is neither based purely on a single chord, as the article currently states, nor is it the only Beatles song based *largely* around a single chord.

You can check Alan W. Pollacks' analysis of Beatles songs for confirmation. "Revolution in the Head" also would back me up on this, if I remember correctly. In fact, anyone who can play a musical instrument can work out that there is slight, but recurring deviation to the flat-VII in TNK.

I'm with you there. The deception lies in the bass since it drones away on the same note, but the chord above it does change. - Slow Graffiti 18:43, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm with you. Dr. Ebola 01:56, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Frightnening string arrangements !?

The article cites the Eleanor Rigby string arrangement as "sometimes frightning". I presume this is in the sense of "frightfully bad English" or "frightnening poor writing"?--feline1 15:00, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

No...it means 'frightening' as in alarming, forceful, urgent. - Slow Graffiti 18:49, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

None of those words are exact substitutes for "frightening". Something "frightening" should literally introduce "fear" in the listener, much in the same way that what I read on the Internet frequently makes me "fear" that a large proportion of the human race are utter morons.--feline1 13:06, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Tomorrow Never Knows/ Single Chord

I've check Ian MacDonald's Revolution in the Head, the sheet music of a guitar-tab arragement, and Alan Pollack's site, and I've played the song through; TNK is not based exclusively on a single chord: that's a fact.

According to the sheet music, Love You To *is*, however, which is interesting. Blue Jay Way is based on C and Cdim, which makes it as close to being based on a single chord as TNK.

Yes, you are right about TNK (I wrote the same fact into de:Tomorrow Never Knows a while ago). One can only wonder why your edit was mistaken for vandalism; maybe it was because of a typo you inserted in another paragraph. BTW further details should got into Tomorrow Never Knows, not the main article. regards, High on a tree 14:49, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for the support! BTW, I looked at the German TNK page (I can read German reasonably well), and it's nicely done; better than the English one. There's one detail there that Ian MacDonald's book contradicts; the guitar solo in TNK, according to MacDonald, is the guitar solo from Taxman run backwards and manipulated in some other ways I don't recall now; and, again according to MacDonald, that solo is played by McCartney, not Harrison.

Thanks again! Oh! and before I forget, the seagull noise is, (again!) according to MacDonald, a heavily processed recording of McCartney laughing, rather than distorted guitars. I'd write this into the German page, but my written German is poor.

Thanks a lot for your remarks about the German article! With regard to the seagull noise there seems to be a contradiction between McDonald and Lewisohn, or rather MacDonald and Emerick:

"The tape loop idea started because they all had Brennell machines," recalls Geoff Emerick. "Paul in particular used to make his own loops at home and walk into the studio with bags full of litte reels saying 'Listen to this!' The seagull-like noise on 'Tomorrow Never Knows' is really a distorted guitar." (from Lewisohn, Recording Sessions)

BTW you can sign your posts by appending four tildes (~~~~) to them.

regards, High on a tree 16:32, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for the tip! 213.131.238.25 14:52, 27 October 2005 (UTC)Dermot

TNK is based on a DRONE (or 'pedal') generally C major is the chord implied by the drone, however the chord often chages to Bb major, played over the continuing drone. The harmonic system is Indian and not best described by "chord progression" in the european classical tradition.--feline1 15:00, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

According to "the complete beatles chord songbook, the chords are C & C11. Both C-ish but not the same chord.--Crestville 15:43, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

According to someone who actually knows some elementary music theory rather than just parrots uncomprehendingly what they read out of books, the chord "C11" means "playing Bb major over a C bass". (Bb is the dom 7th of the scale, D is the 9th, F is the 11th). If you listen to the actual music instead of reading some-one trying to forcefit western strummalong guitar chords to it in a songbook, you'll hear that Macca's bass guitar stays riffing on C the whole time, along with a sitar drone, whilst some Hammond organ voices either the C or Bb major chord. This tonality is further hinted by lennon's vocal line. --feline1 18:40, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, we get it. You know about guitars. No need to be so unplesant about it. There is a word for people like you.--Crestville 14:38, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Strictly speaking, there's a difference between C11 and what we have here, which could more correctly be notated as a 'slash chord': Bb/C (ie, a Bb major triad over the note C in the bass), but they're pretty similar. (C11 would consist of the notes C-E-G-Bb-D-F, though the E would often be omitted in common usage, as it forms a dissonance with the F, which is the 'defining' note of a dominant 11th chord, and thus *has* to remain present. Often the 9th (D) is also left out, giving what might also be called C7(sus4). The voicing that actually appears on the record is most likely C-Bb-D-F, or some inversion of these notes. Guy Hatton 09:18, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

You don't need to guess what voicing is most "likely" to appear on the record as you can instead listen to a copy of it with your ears and hear it. A radical suggestion I know, given the egregious editorial climate which seems to prevail on this article, but one which neverless I must urge you all would prove very useful :)--feline1 14:57, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes, of course one could do that (and had I had my copy of 'Revolver' to hand at the time, I might have done so). However, my point was primarily aimed at distiguishing betweem a C11 chord and a Bb/C, regardless of what's actually on the record (though I realise that may not have been as clear as I thought). Guy Hatton 18:03, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Feline 1 has a good point. Commercially available songbooks are often approximations of what is actually going on within a recorded performance and often are just plain wrong. Crestville, no need to feel offense at Feline 1 citing this fact. Just don't put too much stock in these books. If you want to gain understanding of a piece of music it is definately best to study the source, since so much of a great rock performance, chords aside, is not easily described with words or written on a staff. I don't know how "Indian" this melody really is. I'm sure they were digging some of that music but the melody is pretty much a major chord arpeggio, a bugle call someone said. Anyway, words don't really get to the essence, do they? That's why we love MUSIC! HalfJapaneseGuitarist 01:28, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Collaboration or eternity

Just how long will the collaboration on this WikiProject Albums album last? I'd much appreciate it if a more mainstream album was selected as the next candidate. --Hollow Wilerding 22:12, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

I suppose no reply means that it is going to last forever. --Hollow Wilerding 00:33, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

You should rather ask at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Albums or Template Talk:Album, since Template:Album contains the text that you see at the top of this page. Or be bold and change it yourself.

Personally, I'm a bit sceptical about linking on so many talk pages to a wikiproject which doesn't seem to be very active. regards, High on a tree 03:35, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Father McCartney statement

I've removed the italics from the following section from the article:

It was orginally written as 'Father McCartney', however this was removed as it was thought that listeners would assume that it referred to Paul's father.

Which in a previous edit was changed from:

However it was orginally written as 'Father McCartney', however this was removed as it was thought that listeners would think they were talking about Paul's dad!

If it was supposed to be a quotation, it was incorrectly formatted, the wording shouldn't have been changed in the previous edit (or in my own edit...) and we should have a source for it. So I've removed the italics and made it clearer that it's just a statement.

Incidentally, regarding the line above that one (Ringo has confirmed that he contributed the line "Father McKenzie, writing the words of a sermon that no one will hear."): I think I originally added that to the article, as I remember it being confirmed on Ringo Starr's appearance on Friday Night With Jonathan Ross. So, I think that should be referred to as a source for that statment. --Nick R^Talk 17:51, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

I saw that too.--Crestville 13:18, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Melodic diversity

The section Melodic diversity; innovation in the studio doesn't actually mention or describe melodic diversity, nor does it speak much if any of melody. Hyacinth 09:12, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Question - my book about Revolver

I'm working on a free online book about Revolver, due for release in August. Two chapters are available online. Would it be appropriate to add a link to it in the links section of this article? Rayray 13:03, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

I've gone ahead and added a link to my now finished book.Rayray 17:33, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Name of "Eleanor Rigby"

The name of this song is "Eleanor Rigby". This is the only name printed on the record sleeve. I have now doublechecked by looking it up in the official PRS/MCPS "Registered Works" database, and there is no "alternative title" listed - the only name the work is officially known by is "Eleanor Rigby". This is definitive! The end! No more discussion! --feline1 08:50, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Invariably typing "No More Duscussion" leads to further discussion. The person who keeps putting it back is not claiming that is the real title of the song. He claims to be trying to make wikipedia more user friendly. Apparently people under the age of 25 all know this song as "All The Lonely People" (?). Presumable he will now go through every music article on wikipedia with a fine toothcomb ensuring no-one could possibly be confused about the title of a song in relation to the actual content. I've just changed the title of "The Great Gig In The Sky" to "Whoa Whoa Whooooooooaaahhh Wahh". There is a breif discussion here.--Crestville 09:58, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes well if I had my way, everyone under the age of 25 would be shot. "User friendly"? I don't WANT to be friendly to them. DRUG users, most of 'em. --feline1 10:11, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

And Billy Joel's immortal, "Just The Way You Are" is known to nimrods of all ages as, "Don't Go Changin'." HalfJapaneseGuitarist 01:33, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

I'd argue with you, but I did use a lot of drugs yesterday.--Crestville 10:38, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Personnel still incomplete

Who were the horn players on "Got to Get You into my Life"? There are still absent from the personnel a tthe bottom of this page. Dogru144 23:44, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Mountain of edits

Greetings to everybody. I thought a few (more) words were in order, having just finished a comprehensive round of edits of the main sections of the article.

First, rest assured that I haven't made wholesale changes to what was already written. I did rearrange the order of some of the paragraphs, etc. -- and as a result the article flows more cogently from beginning to end (of those sections). I made a small number of very judicious edits, where they were needed, and added a word or phrase here and there -- but I preserved virtually everything that was already there, so all of the great work that has gone into this article can now be seen to better advantage, IMO. Plus, I've added quite a few new wikilinks. Regards to all. Cgingold 14:48, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Question re "Good Day Sunshine"

The brief mention of "Good Day Sunshine" refers to it as "a cheery mockery of The Lovin' Spoonful". That struck me as somewhat dubious, though it may well be true. Can anybody provide substantiation for this remark -- or was it just the opinion of the editor who wrote it? Cgingold 09:02, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Should the article include information about the rare XEX606-1 pressing of Revolver?

There exists a rare pressing of this album which has matrix XEX606-1 while the others have 606-2 or 606-3. The -1 pressing is believed to be pressed only on the first day of release and includes a different mix of Tomorrow Never Knows. You can read more about it at http://www.norwegianwood.org/beatles/disko/uklp/revolver.htm (roll all the way to the bottom of the page). Should we include that information in this article? -- 88.112.219.78 15:57, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

• I guess it depends how arcane we want to get. I have a pre-release 'factory sample' of Revolver and that has matrix 606-2, which would seem to suggest that very, very few copies of 606-1 were pressed. Russ London 17:11, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Simply put, that's far too arcane for this article. The only place I can even imagine putting something like that would be in an article on record collecting -- if there is one. Cgingold 12:23, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Lyrics Links

The following discussion was posted on Wikipedia's main Beatles discussion page, and appears to also be relevant here:

Are links to lyrics sites appropriate? I have noticed them in some music articles, and I believe they do add value to the listings. I added one at the bottom of the external links section. In the interest of full disclosure, it is a website I maintain. If the interest is positive, I would likely add lyrics links to other musical articles where appropriate. Shadar 19:35, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

My understanding is that lyrics sites reprint lyrics in violation of copyright, and that's why we're not supposed to link to them. The relevant guideline to check would be Wikipedia:External links, but that page doesn't directly address this question. I'm going to post a question to the discussion page there, and perhaps someone can tell us whether my idea is correct or mistaken. In the latter case, I'd be happy to restore the link myself. -GTBacchus^(talk) 19:40, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

I posted my question Wikipedia talk:External links#Lyrics sites here. -GTBacchus^(talk) 19:43, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

If the decision is made that lyrics sites are inappropriate due to the copyright violation issue, I would like to delete the links I found. As a newbie, it would give me good practice in editting. Is that an appropriate action for a new user, and is there a FAQ on deletion etiquette? Shadar 19:52, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, we received an answer, and it refers us to item #2 at Wikipedia:External links#Restrictions on linking. It comes down to whether the lyrics are actually under copyright or in the public domain, and whether or not the site in question has the copyright holder's permission to publish the lyrics. If you'd like to remove links to lyrics sites that are in violation of our copyright policy, then you're welcome to do so. The best way to avoid offense is probably to mention the External links policy (or WP:EL, as we like to call it) in your edit summary. -GTBacchus^(talk) 20:53, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

I can certainly understand that decision. It turns out I violated the self interest clause anyways, since I posted my own site. I should have recommended the change in talk, and then if someone agreed they could make the change. Thanks for the help with this, GTBacchus. Shadar 17:20, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

I notice that there are also links to lyric pages on each of the Wikipedia Beatles album pages. I should have time to fix those tonight. I'll follow the above advice of GTBacchus in mentioning the WP:EL, and refer to this discussion on each album discussion page. InnerRevolution7 02:57, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

I have made the above-stated change. InnerRevolution7 04:00, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Comments link

I have reinstated the link for comments on the song here seems a useful resource and I don't see any objections to it. However, if anyone has concerns please share them here. TerriersFan 00:34, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 1968 Rolling Stone Interview

A citation to http://homepage.ntlworld.com/carousel/pob06.html was added on 22 September 2007. That page has the title, "Rolling Stone Interview - John Lennon - September 1968," but the text does not match two other sites where that interview is transcribed, including The Beatles Interview Database and John-Lennon.com.

I do not think the http://homepage.ntlworld.com/carousel/pob06.html version is an accurate transcription. Some of the text in that version that is not in the The Beatles Interview Database does not sound like something Lennon would say, or is not said the way he would say it. Perhaps more importantly, I have found The Beatles Interview Database to be reliable when comparing material there to the same material published in books by reputable authors and publishers, and for that reason I believe it is a more reliable source than http://homepage.ntlworld.com/carousel/pob06.html.

Gien the above, I think that citation should be removed and we should refrain from citing material from that site until/unless someone can corroborate that version of the interview.

The specific assertion that is cited has to do with Lennon accidentally putting the "Rain" tape in backwards while high. I have read that various places and so I think we can find another source for it. I will try to do that. John Cardinal 12:48, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Concept album?

Is this a concept album, and should this thus be mentioned in the article? The songs do seem to carry a similar concept, and I've heard Revolver be called The Pioneer of Concept Albums. Sgt. Pepper is also called a concept album by some. Zazaban 15:28, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

You often hear Peppers described as a concept album, not so often this one. If you can find some reliable sources - books, critical appraisals - describing it so, then it could be mentioned - just cite the sources... Cheers, Ian Rose 21:05, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Revolverback.jpg

Image:Revolverback.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot 21:24, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] US Cover?

Is the US cover really needed? It seems to be just a crop of the UK cover. Putting them both up there makes the reader (me) feel like there's some important change (why else present both images other than for the sake of comparison?). Am I missing something? The alternate versions aren't discussed in the article, either, which makes it all seem a bit pointless. At the very least, it makes me seriously suspect the fair use rationale for the US cover- what exactly is it illustrating that the UK cover fails to illustrate? Staecker (talk) 16:02, 20 November 2007 (UTC)