Talk:Reunified Fourth International

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[edit] References to ICFI history

Please explain which revisions are "POV":

1. Please provide proof that the opposition to the ISFI considered Cuba capitalist. In fact, they considered guerralism and nationalist movements aligned to Stalinism as counter to the internationalist cause and a dead-end for opponents to capitalism.

2. Are you claiming that no other countries joined the ICFI after 1964? This is simply not true. I cannot understand why you would take that comment out.

3. Why do you object to a definition of opportunism in the criticism section? To someone seeking to learn about marxist politics, this is necessary to outline what exactly the objections to ISFI politics are.

Do NOT revert to the old version until you have answered these questions. The revisions were not POV but matters of clarification of fact. [The preceding comment was unsigned]

Thanks for the questions:
  • 1. The SLL and OCI rejected the notion that a workers' state had been created in Cuba. There's no dispute about this, and it remains the position of the IC as far as I know. Hansen gather some of them there [1]
Again, you have no proof that they considered Cuba "capitalist", only that they denied it was a workers' state. Please refrain from distortions of the historical record. For information about how Trotskyists define a workers' state, please see Trotsky's In Defense of Marxism.
  • 2. Only the French and English sections of the IC did not take part in the fusion. By 1966 the IC had created new organisaitons, but these were not former sections of the IC or IC. Indeed, they were generally new organisations that had not participated in either public faction: the Hungarian group had been in either section; the Greek group had split from the Fi many years earlier. The Bulletin group in the US was a tiny minority of the SWP. No section that existed before or at the time of the reunification opposed the reunification, other than the SLL and OCI.
Please read what was stated: the ICFI attracted other countries, including minorities in various countries. "Tiny" or not, remember the Bolsheviks were tiny at one point in their history as well. Whether the facts are to your liking or not is besides the point, if it happened do not attempt to delete it.
  • 3. The definition of opportunism should not be here: it is unreferenced and this is not the best place for it. Create a separate page, perhaps ultraleftism as a template. --Duncan 12:48, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
This is a good place for it. If the main criticism of the organization is that it is opportunist, then this should be clarified for readers. If you have a better definition of opportunism, then correct it. You are clearly opposed to any criticism of the organization, but do not deny readers of wikipedia the opportunity to see what non-supporters say!
(The section indented above were added by an anonymous reader).


1. There are two grounds for this this. [a] In Trotskyism Betrayed, section 17, The SLL lists Cuba as one of those countries in which Stalinism "has allowed a new bourgeois government to establishing temporary stalbilisation". [b] The SLL and OCI argued against the idea that a workers state existed in Cuba. In Marxism, the state defends class relations of production. Tf a workers state had not been created then, by implication, the state continued to defend capitalism.
2. We have to not take facks from one period and bring them forward in time. In 1961-63, only two sections supported the IC. They one a minority in the SWP, the RT. At that time, they won no other current (majority or minority) in the international. The 1966 conference minutes records only these sections: Britain; France; Greece; Hungary; USA. The Greeks and Hungarians were not won from the IC or IS sections. Therefore the only sections the ICFI won from the reunification were the OCI and SLL, plus the RT.
3. I don't agree that this is the right page to add a definition of opportunism. If you want to add a definition with references, then so so. But do recall that opportunism, in Marxism, is more than electoralism. --Duncan 07:45, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] US SWP

The SWP, of courses, was banned from membership of the FI from 1940 onwards. Perhaps it's a formality, since they clearly took part in the life of the world movement, but it's worth noting. The US SWP left the FI after the Australian party, not before it: hence the EFS bulleting on that topic. The SWP formally servered its links in 1990. --DuncanBCS 23:09, 24 September 2005 (UTC)


[edit] Size of USFI

I find the pedantry involved in changing 'one of the larger' back to 'largest' rather daft. Not to mention inaccurate.

The fact of the matter is that the disunited sectarians (joke) have next to no sections with more than say 100 members these days if we except the LCR in France. Competing tendencies can claim equal numbers for example the IST can claim the SWP as the equal in size of the LCR plus the SEK in Greece with several hundred members and a growing group of substance in Spain. The Lambs have the OCI in France plus substantial sections in Algeria and Brazil.

Hard numbers for all the groups and tendencies are hard to come by as you may know. But going by numbers quoted me from the last IEC of the USFI then it is a fact that the USFI is smaller than the IST.

Ignoring your insults, it is widely accepted that the USFI is the largest Trotskyist tendency in the world (I don't have any particular brief for them). Only the IST claims to be larger, and this relies on accepting their own membership figures, which are widely regarded as vastly inflated. The CWI concede that they are not as large, the ICL has almost no-one beyond Lutte Ouvriere, while Lambert's individual groups are far smaller than the LCR (or LO) and it seems highly unlikely that they sum to become a larger tendency. As your edit stands, it represents an IST POV, rather than the NPOV consensus. Warofdreams 6 July 2005 13:27 (UTC)
Comparing membership is complicated by the FI's complex organisational form. Who, for example, is counting the size of the currents inside other broader organisation? However, there are some substantial FI currents in the developing world, as well as in France. We need only mention Sri Lanka and the Phillipines. --DuncanBCS 09:52, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
Somebody has insisted on editing out my attempt to make the size claims more NPOV. If it is necessary to keep in the fact that the rFI claims to contain 80% of the world's self-identified Trotskyists, it is necessary to balance that by pointing out that the claim doesn't jell at all with the (frankly more credible) claims of half a dozen other Trotskyist groups to be of similar size.213.190.141.211 17:37, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

For some reason a USFI member, DuncanBCS, insists on editing out any attempt to make the laughable claim that the USFI contains 80% of the world's Trotskyists more NPOV. (1) No reference is given to the USFI actually making such a claim, and I would be honestly surprised if they are crazy enough to do so. (2) In no individual country with any remotely significant Trotskyist movement, do the USFI/rFI/whatever account for 80% of the self-described Trotskyists. This necessarily means that they could not amount to 80% worldwide. In fact I doubt if they amount to much more than 10%. (3) Taking for a moment a few of the larger self-described Trotskyist organisations around the world which belong to other international currents: the British SWP and Socialist Party, the French LO and Lambertistes, the Algerian Lambertistes, the Nigerian CWI, the IMT in Pakistan, the PSTU in Brazil. Between just these 8 organisations we are dealing with an absolute minimum of 15,000 members (and probably many, many more). Now even if we were for the sake of argument to exclude all of the hundreds of other Trotskyist groups around the world, even if we were to say that the 30 or 40 other CWI sections, 20 or 30 other IMT sections, 20 or 30 IST groups, dozens of Lambertist or Morenoist groups have not one single member between them, the existence of those 8 groups alone makes the supposed claim by the USFI an utter nonsense. Because it would mean that the USFI has 75,000 members. Is anyone seriously going to argue something so patently ludicrous? Now really. If some USFI supporter really, really wants to include reference to this 80% claim and can reference the fact that the claim is actually made, then I have no objection to including it. But it is ludicrous to include the claim without pointing out that it is completely mad.213.190.141.211 21:56, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for this. I think I haven't been clear enough about by problem with your edit; sorry for that. My disagreement is not with editing out that claim, but your adding in a word like dubious without any references to support it. I didn't add in this claim; it's been there for years. Of course, no membership figures can be verified for any of these tendencies. However, no tendency does describe itself as being larger and, for example, on the CWI page we accept the CWI's claim that it is the second largest, after the reunified Fourth International. I suggest that we remove both the 80& claim and your 'dubious' term, and note instead that it is regarded as the largest Trotskyist tendency. --Duncan 07:25, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
Hi Duncan, indeed...no one would seriously claim the USFI has "80%" of the world's Trotskyists, even excluding the Cliffite IST. The CWI is probably as big, as it the IMT (Grant/Woods). My exprience with the FI (La Verite) would give the USFI a run for it's money in several countries, including Algeria, Mexico, most West African countries, etc. In fact, I'd say the USFI has about 30% of the worlds self-proclaimed Trotskyists at best. Really, if you include Morenoism, Lambertism, Grantites and others AND the dissolving of many of it's sections in Asia and Latin America (Mexico, for example, it has only one group with about 24 members) then it's hard to argue it has many members at all outside Brazil, Pakistan (if you want to include the LPP) and France.

David Walters —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.77.107.100 (talk) 09:28, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

David, yes - that's we we removed that in 2006. The largest section is probably in either the Philippines or Sri Lanak. The Mexican group maintains an impressive magazine and newspaper, so I think it;s larger than 24. We really only get perfect data at the world congresses. --Duncan (talk) 10:42, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Workers' Party not there in 1963?! So what?

Warofdreams has done some lovely work on this page, and corrected some of my excesses, but why point out that the WP was not at the reunification congress?

The WP dissolved in 1947, and the idea that the ISL tendency was organised enough to have discussed the option at that time is counter-intitive. What is clear is that would have no interest in reunifying, given the politics of the USFI on defensism, Cuba, Algeria, Vietnam. One may as well point out that the ILP and RSAP were not there. Since the WP is not mentioned elsewhere in the article, I think think it's a distraction.

The ISL was probably busy that week, arguing that the AFL/CIO needed a workers' bomb to fight Stalinism [lol]. --DuncanBCS 16:57, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

  • Thanks for your work on the article; as you noticed, it has previously been edited by a very enthusiastic SEP supporter. If we're going to have a list of Trotskyist groups who weren't at the conference, let's have a list. If not, let's leave it out. For sure, the ISL wouldn't have wanted to reunite with the ISFI/ICFI, but they regarded themselves as Trotskyists, unlike (say) the ILP, who never had. Incidentally, one thing I'm not clear on, is whether the LSSP were present at the 1963 Congress. Can you shed any light? thanks, Warofdreams talk 17:11, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
    • In the article I listed the FI sections that were absent: despite being invited, it's surprising that IC or IS groups failed to attend. It's no surprise that non-FI groups were not there. For example, LO wasn't there [though they do observe USFI congresses now] for example, but for the ISL to have been there would have been unacceptable on both sides. The LSSP almost certainly attended the 1963 congress: remember that they had made proposals for parity bodies, open discussion and joint congresses from the beginning of the split, and generally played a good role despite being played a little by both sides. Their absence was noted from the 61 congress but not the 63 congress, and 61 could have been as simple as an illness, no money or a visa problem. There were very deep discussions between the IS and the LSSP at that time on how they could take the united front tactic into government: if they had played it differently, they felt Sri Lanka could have gone the same way as Algeria or Cuba. The IS and USFI were supportive of the LSSP, but hard on the 'revisionist' leaders. Indeed, even after 3/4ths of the party supported entry into the government, the FI was careful to focus on individuals at first, rather than write off the whole section. That, at least, was a welcome return to the norms of the 30s after Pablo's excesses. P.S. Honestly, the articles that reflect SEP-type POV are very frail. I don't think they really reflect all the nuance that IC tradition had and basically boil the difference down to the question of whether or not Trotskyists are organizationally separate - and that skips over the question of programme. --DuncanBCS 18:51, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
  • OK, thanks for the clarification and the details on the LSSP - I've mentioned this in the article. Yes, the SEP-POV articles are generally lacking; they were generally pretty stubby before they got expanded with most of the ICFI programme. I've tried to NPOV some, but haven't made much of an effort to explore the nuance of the debate - so thanks for your contributions. Warofdreams talk 19:12, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Merge this into 'Fourth International'?

There's not much on the FI page after 1963, when this page starts. Although Trotskyists outside the FI argue that the FI had lapsed into centrism at some time in the past, few - if any - question the organisational continuity reflected by the reunification congress. Merging the two pages could also allow a much clearer structure: summarising eents between the successive world congresses. What do people think? We would have to be careful to flag up the other currents that have moved into and out of the USFI current.

The last World Congress adopted new statutes, which means that there no longer is a committee called the United Secretariat. Merging the pages would also avoid a lot of the hassle asociated with that.

Comments? --DuncanBCS 18:07, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

No, there is should be a distinction between the original FI of Trotsky and the later FIs. As I'm sure you're aware USec is one of several organizations claiming to be the inheritors of the original FI, and that there is hardly a consensus on recognizing USec as the original FI. --Soman 18:10, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
But don't the others claim to be the political continuity of Trotskyism, while onyl the USFI claims to be the Fourth International? The 1963 congress brought together almost every current that had atteneded the 1951 Third World Congress. Organisationally, the USFI *is* the FI in the same sense that the today's Socialist International is the Second International. Any other comments? --DuncanBCS 19:33, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
I oppose a merger. We have separate articles on the Second International and the Socialist International. The organisational continuity gives the USFI a good claim to be the Fourth International, but this is not accepted by the majority of Trotskyists outside the organisation. Rather than accept the USFI's position, however well founded it may seem, we need a NPOV position with separate articles; the issue of continued existence can be raised in each. Warofdreams talk 20:36, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
Good point. I'll drop the merge flags. Thanks to you and Soman for the quick replies. --DuncanBCS 23:50, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] The roots of the ICFI and ISFI

Do we need this? can't we just incorporate it into 'Fourth International' and then add links? --DuncanBCS 18:42, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] How deal with the rename?

In 2003, the World Congress replaced the USec and IEC with an 'International Committee' and a 'Bureau'. So, what should we call this organisation now? Any suggestions? How about Fourth International (post-1963)? --DuncanBCS 15:31, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

I suppose I might be obliged to agree with you (that's the preferred usage among my comrades in the ISO), but I think that most people who care about these distinctions still talk about ‘USec’ or someting of that sort, which I find clearer. After all, I don't think the USFI ever referred to itself as the USFI. Rafaelgr 01:09, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Indeed. The committee was refered to as the USec but, inside the International, calling it the USFI was a sign that you were an outside! Let's wait a week to see if others comment, and then go ahead. --Duncan 10:38, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
  • I tend to agree with Rafael; calling it the USFI seems clearer, although I can see the argument for moving it. The introduction should make it clear that this isn't the official name of the organisation. Warofdreams talk 00:05, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
I think we need to move ahead with this. In an article on Freedom and Revolution we found ourselves discussing a resolution by the International Committee of the USFI, which is quite confusing. I suggest we move this page to Fourth International (post-1963) or to reunified Fourth International. Can anyone think of a better name? --Duncan 08:00, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
I have requested the move. This is what I have written... United Secretariat of the Fourth International → reunified Fourth International … Rationale: We seem to have agreement for this on the Talk page. The majorities of the two halves of the Fourth International reunified in 1963. The new leadership body of that organisation was the United Secretariat, and the name by which the International was often refered to. That organisation has replaced its United Secretariat with an international bureau and an international committee. --Duncan 17:18, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
Moved it to Reunified Fourth International. —Nightstallion (?) Seen this already? 15:13, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
On a similar note, we need some consistency in the acronym. It's fair enough to want to get rid of the USFI acronym given that the USFI body has been renamed, but using the acronym FI is as confusing and loaded as using the name Fourth International. There are, as has been pointed out, a number of organisations which claim to be / represent the continuity of / be rebuilding / be the leadership of / whatever the Fourth International. Some people may agree with the artists formerly known as the USFI that their claim is best, some may not. Either way its best to avoid taking sides on this by "awarding" the acronym to one group. I've changed the acronyms to rFI, in keeping with what seems to be the generally agreed title for the article.213.190.141.211 17:41, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
  • I think that's very urgly, and quite incomprehensible since that useage would be unique to Wikipedia. Let's call it the reunified FI. --Duncan 11:59, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] LCR debate??

I don't understand this.. This debate has been mirrored in other sections, in particular the Revolutionary Communist League, whose 16th congress (in 2006) saw a heated debate on the LCR's relationship to the rest of the French far left. As I understand it, the debate in the LCR is not about participation in bourgois governments. In what was is the LCR debate connected to the sort of crisis in the PT and LSSP? --Duncan 22:13, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Duncan is completely right. I deleted the sentence about LCR in that section. Bertilvidet 20:26, 22 February 2006 (UTC)


Okay, I just had one of my edits reverted. On closer reading of the article I can see why. The sentence stating that the founding was in 1963 is immediately followed by a sentence that appears to contradict that. On closer reading I can see that it does not contradict it at all. But the fact that I did have to look it over again must mean that it is a bit unclear. Perhaps some attention should be paid to how it could be reworded to make sure it is more clear. Dolaro 01:33, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Criticisms

Why did somebody edit the piece on outside criticisms so as to remove reference to the initial support of the (then) USFI for its sections governmental role in Brazil, so as to make it seem as if the international opposed taking part in the government from the start? Also I edited the criticism which some other Trotskyists make of the rFI/government issue for accuracy - the key point in the criticism is that these are coalition governments which involve outright capitalist governments.

The above comment was unsigned. There's a range of stances from support to opposition; The FI didn't raise public criticism initailly, but there certainly was a clear and comradely debate. The change at the FI wasn;t of their attitude, but of what they said publicly. --Duncan 09:42, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Party of Communist Action

The article claims that FI-supporters in Syria work within Party of Communist Action. I doubt that. Anyone who care to make this statement probable? Bertilvidet 14:40, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

I think we should cut that. If it's the case, there are no references to it. Probabaly most FI supportes in Syria are in jail. --Duncan 09:39, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
Well, those who currently are out of jail work within Antiglobalization Activists in Syria. Bertilvidet 09:49, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Merge

Please explain the proposed merge. Why was a merge proposed rather than just inserting {{main|reunified Fourth International}} in the short section this article supposedly should be merged into? MrZaiustalk 09:50, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

There was a crisis in the leadership of the 4th International between Trotsky's death and criticism of "Pabloism" but,
as it never has been dissolved, after partial reunification of the majority of members of the International, the new USec/USFI is the de facto and de jure Organizational continuity and rightful successor to ISFI which was established by the 4th International as its core instrument for global organization.
Of course, some groups remain outside of this partial reunification, as they believe that the "errors" that were the cause of their splitting remain unrectified, that's why I further move
that a template be created for a simplified "family tree" of Trotskyist groups stemming from the Fourth International to show the provenance of these groups, their scattering and later realignments and regroupments.
but for the purposes of continuity, in my opinion, the reunified 4th Int'l should be incorporated with the rest of the article with consolidated history of the 4th International
so the general outline would be something like
But for the purposes of continuity, in my opinion, the reunified 4th Int'l should be incorporated with the rest of the article with consolidated history of the 4th International after Trotsky's death; OR, BETTER, a summary be given in the article and further elaboration (of the Trotskyist diaspora) spun-off into a new article.
so that the general outline of the post-merge article would be:
Historical Background
1st world congress
2nd world congress
-After Trotsky's death
        --overview of the crisis, consequences and subsequent split (continuing)
        --partial reunification
        --Link to Organizations stemming from the Fourth International   /optional/
5th world congress
6th
7th
etc...
Impact/Legacy
Today
Criticisms

—-— .:Seth Nimbosa:. (talk • contribs) 10:36, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

I support the merger. --Duncan 16:01, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

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