Talk:Research and Analysis Wing

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[edit] Misc

Can someone add external links to this article? Like a more detailed coverage on the topic.. by a news website or government website? thanx. -- Spundun 21:32, 22 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Have added a few words about the alleged RAW involvement in the 1996 US scandal involving illegal funding to political candidates in the US. BTW, heard that the tenure of the present director has been increased. can someone verify? Cheers, Theruvath Prasanth Mathew --T.prasanth.mathew 20:55, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Pls Note

RAW is a wrong abbreviation . R&AW is the correct one. Again R&AW Is not an agency technically.rather its a wing of Cabinet Secretrariot. The previous version was almost perfectly correct regarding these. Pls revert back and then make suitabel addtions to it.-Bharatveer 13:48, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

can u pls cite any reference for such claimLegaleagle86 14:02, 20 September 2006 (UTC)legaleage86

[edit] NPOV

i can see a lot of paki propaganda on the site. RAW never had any operation chanakya - it isnt that powerful. the disturbances in balochistan are no longer supported by indians since it was stopped when vajpayee was the foreign minister; it is alleged that balochis were trained in the thar though it seems too far fetched a claim. waziristan is under the influence of the taliban. for the raw to influence them they need the support of the afgans, but that is not possible since they are against the isi-backed taliban.

can somebody change it? i'm a new user - ironturn

thank you ironturn. i clarify i am not a paki :} proud to be an indian i have changed few of the 'offending' lines, do drop your suggestions from time to time -- Legaleagle86 13:38, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

welcome, eagle. actually sites like defence journal and global security are pakistani propaganda machines. i say we take cues from them and search them in international media to check if its valid. i think you should read about the operation leech incident, i'm not sure whether that should be added in RAWs failures or successes. there's the hijacking of a fokker freindship plane in 1971 by kashmiri 'terrorist' hashim qureshi. it could be a raw ploy 'cause it proved fatal for the pakistanis. it hard to decide cause raw never owns up anything. i'll try to provide the links to the sites. meanwhile i'll learn to use and edit wikipedia:) thanks - ironturn

Hi iron, i do feel the same about defence journal et al, do post your future sugestion at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Peer_review/Research_and_Analysis_Wing. eagerly awaiting for the links and hope you will learn to edit soon -- Legaleagle8616:07, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Its been long since the npov tag has been put up as per request of members, but circumstances have changed sufficiently now, i propose to delete the npov tag after three days, if anyone has any alternate suggestions please jot it here Legaleagle86 05:08, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Err...I haven't looked at previous iterations of the article, but I just came across it and it still looks like it has POV problems, generally, as previously mentioned, slanting towards Pakistan. Saying the Indian army "unleashed a reign of terror" is hardly NPOV language. It's not outrageous, but it's not as good as it should be. The article is otherwise pretty spiffy. Maybe I'll try to tackle a cleanup myself after I do some research. Ford MF 05:12, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Hello Ford, thanks for commenting . But i would like to point out that I was unable to find a single instance in the article which mentioned that the Indian Army unleashed a terror campaign(on the other hand the article says in the late 1960s the Pakistani Army unleashed a reign of terror on civillians which included killing, rape and looting), you have commented that the article is slanted towards pakistan, however the article has a very unflattering tone towards the western neighbour of India, the RAW success in Bangladesh pictures a very grim pic of pak army. In the end i would like to know what exactly you meant by 'Spiffy', looking forward to your contribution in the article Legaleagle86 14:51, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] RAW Logo

Hello everyone, if anyone can find the logo of RAW on internet please mention the site here. -- Legaleagle86

- it will be also very nice if someone can contribute with a quick reference box Legal Eagle 05:44, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

- - hi, got a message from authentic source that RAW doesnt have logo but a seal only....its not available to general public so lets see if we can get the seal Legaleagle86 02:35, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

First of all it is not propaganda, R&AW is heavily involve in internal affairs of Pakistan. 3 balochs hijack plane from Quetta and wanted to take it to mumbai. This is factual. and lastly, don't get offended that easily, this is something for knowledge, we don't want to listen "India is great etc etc" and of course you would do the same, so please avoid any irrational comments. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Atheistbyfaith (talk • contribs) 13:55, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] how?

how to join in r.a.w..? now i am studying m.b.a. how can i join in your organisation. MY AIM IS TO BECOME AN R.A.W. OFFICER please contact me @

- Thank you for your query do follow the link http://www.planyourcareer.com/degree/RESEARCH.ASP.htm I must however comment that there is much difference in the reel and real life of a spy. Its always the opposite of James Bond stuff in real life. So if you get inspired by Bond movies this stuff is not for you. Legaleagle86 04:02, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

- - I am also removing your address as it is unsafe to put up ones full address at an open forum. Legaleagle86 10:09, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Recruitment to the Research & Analysis Wing (RAW) is conducted in the following manner:

Direct recruitment: Deputy Field Officers (at the junior level), field officers and senior field officers are appointed directly to the Research & Analysis Service (RAS). Recruitment at the lowest level is that of an ‘attache’ and during the probation period, you are designated as Under Secretary. As per the rules, 50 per cent of the posts in the senior cadre are filled through direct recruitment while the remaining are filled through promotions and deputation of special officers from the CBI, IT, Customs, RBI, and the state police (at the SP, DIG or IG level) for a period of 5-7 years which is extendable up to ten years. Senior level appointments: These are made in two ways: (i) on-campus recruitment of Civil Service candidates while training for the foundation course and (ii) recruitment of University graduates. You must have a first division from Class X onwards. Final selection is made through interviews. Specialist appointments: Personnel for technical or scientific jobs are selected through campus interviews which are conducted at such institutes. Generally, those with some experience in government organisations are preferred. The Interview Panel includes experts and selectors from the UPSC. Language specialists: Interestingly, RAW also employs language specialists as its work involves dealing with foreign countries.

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2002/20020618/edu.htm Legaleagle86 15:14, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Are we disclosing sensitive information

Those contributing to such pages (RAW, ARC etc) pls ensure such info should not be posted on the net (wikipedia here) which is not available publicly (it may be available to other country's Intelligence agencies but not necessarily to terrorist organizations). I have observed that wikipedians in trying to enrich wikipedia tend to overdo things. -- Vjdchauhan 06:24, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

- Most of the info are there in public domain we are just bringing together the entire info in a presentable manner, and about terrorist org, it is an open secret that the other country's Intelligence agencies are in close contact with the terror groups Legaleagle86 07:42, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Help on infobox

its high time that the raw page have an infobox so i would like to invite help on the issue Legaleagle86 16:28, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Director : P K H Tharakan
Research and Analysis Wing
Satya, Sampurna, Sarvatrya

Department : PM Office
Established : September 21, 1968
Budget : Classified
Employees : Classified
Major units:
The Aviation Research Centre (ARC) The Radio Research Center (RRC) The Electronics and Technical Services National Technical Facilities Organisation
Methods of Intelligence collections:
SIGINT HUMINT IMINT
Notable Directors:
R. N. Kao C D Sahay
view • talk • edit

suggestions and modifications will be helpful Legaleagle86 05:35, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] wishlist oninfobox

help on raw logo
Align the colons

[edit] Copyrighted information

Compare some of the paragraphs with the identical content in [1]:

The Wikipedia article: Operation Blue Star: This was the codename given to the storming of the holiest Sikh shrine, the Golden Temple of Amritsar in 1984. Although it was a domestic matter and IB's concern, yet R&AW was pulled in because of the active Pakistani involvement. R&AW drew flak as it could not assess the strength of Bhindranwale's forces. What was to be a 5 hours operation stretched to five days and tanks had to be brought in and Indian Army suffered heavy casualties. Ultimately Indira Gandhi had to pay with her own life as she was gunned down by her Sikh bodyguard in retaliation to Operation Blue Star.

"Raw at War-Genesis of Secret Agencies in Ancient India":
Operation Blue Star: This was the codename given to the storming of the holiest Sikh shrine, the Golden Temple of Amritsar in 1984. Although it was a domestic matter and IB's concern, yet RAW was pulled in under the pretext of a foreign element's (allegedly Pakistani) involvement. RAW failed miserably as it could not assess the strength of Bhindranwale's forces. What was to be a 5 hours' operation stretched to 5 days and tanks had to be brought in and Indian Army suffered heavy casualties. Ultimately Indira Gandhi had to pay with her own life as she was gunned down by her Sikh bodyguard in retaliation to Operation Blue Star. Kao, the Prime Minister's Security Adviser resigned within 24 hours of her assassination.

This text is virtually identical to that of the source, and everything that I have removed is of the same kind. I understand that copyrights can be a pain, but Wikipedia cannot have copyrighted content (and this is way too much content to qualify for fair use). NatusRoma | Talk 06:37, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

- I admit that the para on bluestar, telecommunication and emergency will fail the litmus test but why should bangla,sikkim and other operations be categorised as violation

The Wikipedia article on sikkim op: Encircled by Tibet, Nepal, Bhutan and West Bengal in the Eastern Himalayas Sikkim was ruled by a Maharaja. The Indian Government had recognized the title of Chogyal (Dharma Raja) for the Mahraja of Sikkim. In 1972 R&AW was given the green signal to go ahead with the operation of installing a pro-Indian democratic government there. In less than three years Sikkim became the 22nd State of the Indian Union on April 26, 1975.

"Raw at War-Genesis of Secret Agencies in Ancient India" Sikkim: Encircled by Tibet, Nepal, Bhutan and West Bengal in the Eastern Himalayas, Sikkim presented a lucrative target to the Indians. It was ruled by a Maharaja. The Indian Government had recognized the title of Chogyal (Dharma Raja) for the Mahraja of Sikkim. After their kill in East Pakistan, in 1972, RAW was given the green signal to go ahead with the operation of installing a pro-Indian democratic government there. In less than three years, with the manipulation of RAW, Sikkim became the 22nd State of the Indian Union on April 26, 1975.

The identical sentences in the paras are merely facts eg, sikkim is surrounded by WB,tibet, nepal etc. eg, the maharaja of sikkim was known as chogyal, these sentences cant be copyrighted, moreover the tone of the two articles are completely different (though being a lawyer i must say it doesnt affect the copyright law) thus i find there is no question of copyright infringrmrnt on the sikkim issue.

similarly on the issue of soft target the offending lines are On 23 June, 1985 Air India's Flight 182 was blown up near Ireland and 329 innocent lives were lost. On the same day another explosion took place at Tokyo's Narita airport's transit baggage building where baggage was being transferred from Cathay Pacific Flight No CP 003 to Air India's Flight 301 which was scheduled for Bangkok. Both aircraft were loaded with explosives from Canadian airports. Flight 301 got saved because of a delay in its departure.

these are FACTS and facts can NEVER be copyrighted (under few continental laws few facts have been copyrighted but under US laws facts cant be copyrighted) i welcome anyone to leave their views on whether this para contains anything other than facts.

poornima (except for the sentence under tight wraps of security is fact), mauritus also belong to the FACT cant be COPYRIGHTED category.

thanks all and do take your time to read the original books from which SM HALI plagarised and pls do leave ideas about infobox. Wishing every one SUBHO BIJOYA.....Legaleagle86 07:21, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the kind wishes. Facts can't be copyrighted, but works such as journal articles can be, and are, copyrighted. Even if the things that the "Raw at War" article says are true and nicely written, Wikipedia can't just use them as its own, or even change them a tiny bit and then use them. Please read Wikipedia:Copyrights for more information, especially the section on Using copyrighted work from others. NatusRoma | Talk 04:47, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Well the topics that you deleted on the training and organisation of RAW agents is a copy of the book 'Inside RAW' by A Raina, so first of all Capt. Hali cannot have any copyright on that portion Legaleagle86 05:46, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Secondly if you carefully read the US copyright law on fair use esp Sec 107 it stipulates that use of a little portion for reporting etc which does not hurt the commercial viability of the original can be accepted. Legaleagle86 05:59, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Then A. Raina owns the copyright to that information, and whether or not Capt. Hali has violated that copyright is not important to our discussion: what is important is that we do not. The sections that you included in the Wikipedia article are far too large to qualify for fair use. In particular:

(3) the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole

The amount of information used in the Wikipedia article is fairly high in relation to the whole of Capt. Hali's article, even excluding the sections on training and organization. NatusRoma | Talk 06:06, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

We need to compare the use in the wiki article with the book by A.Raina and not with Capt. Hali's article (you have yourself agreed that A.Raina owns the copyright) comared to the huge book the portion used is miniscule, and at this point i would reiterate that the use of the para from Raina's book cannot harm in any way the commercial interests on the contrary it is getting publicity, exposure etc. Legaleagle86 06:33, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

- - Presently i am trying to make the para on emergency, telecommunication and bluestar compatible with the 'rigorous' copyright demands of wiki, will be grateful with some help Legaleagle86 07:38, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

QUICK REFERENCE

Notwithstanding the provisions of sections 106 and 106A, the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright. In determining whether the use made of a work in any particular case is a fair use the factors to be considered shall include—

the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;

the nature of the copyrighted work;

the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and

the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.

The fact that a work is unpublished shall not itself bar a finding of Fair Use if such finding is made upon consideration of all the above factors.[2]

Greetings. I'm a local expert on Wikipedia copyright. Unfortunately, we cannot use text from another copyrighted Website under a "fair use" claim. Even if it's legal, it's against Wikipedia policy. The only "fair use" text that is allowed on Wikipedia is a direct quote from a notable person, quoted and sourced. That doesn't apply in this case, so the use of copyrighted text is not allowed. Whenever you edit a page, you see the warning: "Do not copy text from other websites without permission. It will be deleted." That's easy to understand.

I suggest you rewrite the text in your own words. If the people on this page spend half as much time re-writing the text as they spent debating fair use, there wouldn't be a problem. All the best, – Quadell ^{(talk) (random)} 12:33, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Quadell (this is not difficult, as I've never seen Quadell be wrong). The raw facts in the text are not copyrightable, but the specific language and structure are. If you write your own text with your own structure and arrangement, you will be fine. (Also, don't forget to attribute those facts to the article per WP:CITE) TheronJ 13:27, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] More info on RAW

Those interested in getting more info on RAW can contact noted amateur security analyst Vijay Krishna at

vijay_intelligence@yahoo.co.in

[edit] Explanation of extensive (minor) edits

Re-placed Controversies section to before the Media portrayal section. Factual information about R&AW trumps fictional portrayals.
Removed numerous extraneous and POV adjectives. e.g.: "unholy nexus"? R&AW is India's premiere external intelligence agency? Isn't it their only external intelligence agency.
Minor wikilinking (e.g. Raj), and fixing of current wikilinks so that so many of them do not go to disambiguation pages or redirects
spelling and punctuation errors (e.g. in "Wing of the Intelligence Bureau", wing isn't capitalized)
Fixed some footnotes. (<ref> tags go after punctuation)
Standardized to R&AW. In half the article's mentions it was RAW and the other half R&AW.
Operation Cactus probably shouldn't be called "bloodless" when the History of the Maldives article says 19 people were killed in it.
I deleted a reference in Operation Chanakya because the cited article contained no information about ISI funding and training terrorists (no factual information at all, really). Not once does the article even MENTION "evidence about ISI's involvement in training and funding Kashmiri terrorist groups", to which I have added a {{fact}} tag.
I don't have time to go through all the citations now, but I consider them suspect. If someone's got time, they probably ought to make sure they're all on the level.
Wow, there we go, deleted this reference too, since it seems to go only to a personal networking site.
Removed "Senator Mushahid Hussain Sayed recently remarked that "India has significant ingress in the Afghan ministry of tribal affairs, and is using it for covert activities against Pakistan" and its {{POV-statement}} tag. I found the quote (unattributed in the Wiki article) here, minus the "against Pakistan" part, which changes the whole tenor of the sentence. Without that, it no longer needs or deserves to be in that part of the article.
I blanked the introduction section that has NOTHING to do with R&AW (doesn't even mention it). Chanakya wasn't a member of R&AW, and to cite him here so elaborately is like citing Sun Tzu in every single article about the Chinese military. Wikilinking to Chanakyan's article is sufficient; it doesn't need to be here too. And saying: "Acting on the Chanakyan principles, they exploit human weaknesses for wine, women and wealth, and, at times resort to blackmail"...how is that different from any other intelligence agency that exploits the exact same things?
Got too damn tired to go on. Will return to finish other sections later. Ford MF 18:39, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Great work

I have to commend Legaleagle86, Bharatveer, NatusRoma and all the other wikipedians who have expanded this page to what it is now, and made it extremely informative..(compared to the old one). I appreciate the efforts you have taken, especially considering the obscure nature of the RAW...

...Keep up the good work guys.

P.S...a small suggestion...the slogan in the infobox should be satyameva jayate instead of satyam Eva jayate. The former is the spelling used in the official insignias of India as ell as being a correct transliteration from sanskrit.While Satyam Eva Jayate would be grammatically acceptable as a splitting of the roots, they are usually conjoined.

prasad88 09:45, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

In sanskrit every word can indicate either masculine, feminine or neutral genders.

Eg:Rāmah - means the word indicates something that is masculine
   Rāmā - means the word indicates something that is feminine
   Rāmam - means the word indicates something that is meutral

Note: Given all the three indicates the Sabda in Prathama Vibhakti, eka vachana.

So Satyam has no gender in the word when used in mundaka upanishad. Eva means only.Jayate means to win (It was an "Atmanepada Sabda").

So when using Satyam Eva Jayate eventually become Satyameva Jayate. In sanskrit there is no Sabda called meva. We can use any of the above two, Since Sanskrit is higly inflected language, it is suggested to write the later one.- User:Bsskchaitanya (9.41) 20 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Payment from India and Pakistan Side.

There were news that Wing employees are poorly paid than Pakistan. Will anybody give details?vkvora 17:33, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Jow to join RAW

Hi all,

I Like to RAW. Anyone pls let me know to procedures Advance thanks... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ksmaniam (talk • contribs) 15:36, 15 March 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Who was really the first r.a.w director?

Hi everyone, on the Evolution of R&AW it specifically says Sanjeevi Pillai in 1947 took over as the first Indian Director. However in contrast to this in the Directors of R&AW section it says that R.N.Kao was the first director and there is no mention of Sanjeevi Pillai whatsoever on the list of directors. Could someone please clarify and elucidate, is this an editing error or what? Many thanks in advance

Pillai was the first director of Intelligence Bureau in independent India and Kao was the first director of R&AW, R&AW and IB are two seperate agencies. LegalEagle 08:40, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] RAW or R&AW?

IMO, we should keep it as RAW, since that is the most commonly used abbreviation, even by Government and Intelligence officials. For one, its simpler, and it aids easy pronounciation. R&AW may be used once or twice in the page, but I think it should be RAW in all other places. Sniperz11 15:53, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

hello sniper, the correct abbreviation of reserach and analysis wing is R&AW nor RAW, the later is used mainly by media as it can be easily pronounced and has a recall value, however government organisations always use the term R&AW, you can refer to vohra committee report where the agency has been referred as R&AW and not RAW. Moreover the SAAG website had a page on exactly this topic, you can search the sites archive to find that paper. Hence it would be in consonance with the policies of wiki to present the correct info but to let the lay men understand about the topic we should use the common abbreviation only once in the intro, LegalEagle 05:26, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for that Legal... ok, I think we'll leave R&AW then. Sniperz11 06:24, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Herald.jpg

Image:Herald.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 17:32, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Ek1.jpg

Image:Ek1.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

BetacommandBot (talk) 19:44, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Herald.jpg

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to ensure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

BetacommandBot (talk) 23:10, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Ek1.jpg

BetacommandBot (talk) 13:04, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Herald.jpg

BetacommandBot (talk) 06:54, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Herald.jpg

BetacommandBot (talk) 12:54, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Hidden categories: B-Class intelligence articles | Intelligence task force articles | B-Class Indian military history articles

Talk:Research and Analysis Wing

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Contents

[edit] Misc

[edit] Pls Note

[edit] NPOV

[edit] RAW Logo

[edit] how?

[edit] Are we disclosing sensitive information

[edit] Help on infobox

[edit] wishlist oninfobox

[edit] Copyrighted information

[edit] More info on RAW

[edit] Explanation of extensive (minor) edits

[edit] Great work

[edit] Payment from India and Pakistan Side.

[edit] Jow to join RAW

[edit] Who was really the first r.a.w director?

[edit] RAW or R&AW?

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Herald.jpg

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Ek1.jpg

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Herald.jpg

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Ek1.jpg

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Herald.jpg

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Herald.jpg

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