Wikipedia talk:Requests for mediation/RAW (rolling paper)

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Hwody, I'm Mercury. I'm happy to be working with Mrtobacco (talk · contribs) and Onyx86 (talk · contribs). Our mediation will be on this page, and if you have anything confidential to send me, please use the email me link on my userpage. Additionally, lets for the most part try to keep this cool, and clear as we can. I think it makes for a good session.

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If both parties could briefly state the situation and how they see it I think we can go from there. Regards, Mercury 16:31, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Hi there! Basically, I removed a claim on the RAW rolling paper article which said these papers were the healthiest to smoke according to health consultants[1]. The references which Mrtobacco (talk · contribs) used to back up this claim mentioned nothing about smoking RAW papers, and seemed less than credible. Recently he also added the Sierra Club ref. which also does not mention RAW papers, but seems like a more credible source than the first. I explained my edits, as well as state my COI, and my suspicion of Mrtobacco (talk · contribs)'s COI[2]. This is when Mrtobacco (talk · contribs) began to make the personal attacks against me, and things got out of hand[3][4]. I stated my COI's in the hopes of protecting me from any backlash from editing the article, as well as to help show i'm being honest. I work freelance making graphics for American Weigh Scales, which competes with HBI electronics (the scale division of HBI). RAW is manufactured by HBI Tobacco (the RYO division of HBI). This is how I was able to see from Mrtobacco (talk · contribs)'s edit history, that he has been single purposely creating HBI related articles (even the HBI International article itself, which has since been deleted[5][6]) as well as add slander to competing tobacco company pages such as Bambu Rolling Papers[7][8]. This is why I believe he is somehow related to HBI, simply here to promote HBI and its products. He denies this, but in his counterclaims against me, he mentions information that only our competitor would know, such as an upcoming lawsuit with MyWeigh (a division of HBI) [9]. I have not tried to slander HBI, or promote any of my graphic clients, merely call attention to this possible COI. Mrtobacco (talk · contribs)'s incivility throughout the matter has further convinced me that he is the same Steve Redler, who hosts the shill marketing site www.digitalscale.com. He has also self referenced this site in his counterclaims against me. Digitalscale.com is a site created by HBI to slander competing scale companies (check the Fraud Page), and create a fake grass-roots marketing (astroturfing) campaign. Here is an excerpt where they describe scale manufacturer Escali: "**Note: Perhaps there are more then 2 people at Escali / Auctionbroker - Ken says that his wife Lisa works with him now that she has been laid off from her nursing job and maybe they have another assistant or two that we don’t know about. They talk endlessly about how they do volunteer work and activities with their children. However no matter how nice they write it doesn’t make them a real scale company."Onyx86 15:04, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
I'm not sure Mrtobacco (talk · contribs) has any intentions of participating in this mediation. He has continued to write the personal attacks on the talk archive [10], while avoiding this discussion altogether. He has not even once explained why he added the claim that RAW papers are the safest to smoke, or why he promotes them on the cannabisculture.com forums either. [11]Onyx86 14:38, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
He is now attempting to delete the archive which contains his personal attacks, to hide the evidence. [12] Onyx86 14:45, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Hi Mandy, I've since realized and learned that Onyx86 is a paid sock puppet working for a competitor of the product he is so angry about. Anything he says above is designed to take attention away from the real facts at hand. All I'd ask is that you read his actual posts and history, then you'll understand completely. Not even one single addition to Wiki - zero - zip - nada, just lots of accusations, deletions and attacks, classic marks of sp.. I gave up and had the pages modified and deleted as necessary by Wiki Guidelines already. There is nothing to mediate but I really appreciate your wanting to help! He's going to post some long response now which I'm not going to bother responding to. Just read his history and you'll understand I'm sure :) Have a great day Mandy! --Mrtobacco 16:34, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

I explained that the reason I signed up for Wikipedia in the first place was to remove the entry you added to the Weighing Scale atricle which linked to your site digitalscale.com. That is when I noticed all of your HBI related articles you created, and all the accusation you made against people who removed any bias, or advertising sounding edits to wiki, and I decided to call the comunities attention to this (which you call attacking you). I stated my COIs as Wikipedia suggests, when you are editing an article which may relate to a competitor. I have been completely honest, and as they say the truth will set you free. You have not addressed the issue of the health claim to RAW rolling papers, the edit which sparked this whole debate. I can promise you, i'm not being paid to do this, when I told Lee what I was doing, he thought it was funny, and wondered how much Josh is paying you to do this. Onyx86 16:40, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

A sock puppet says what? (couldn't resist)--Mrtobacco 16:49, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't think you are clear on what a sockpuppet (internet) is. If you are saying that I am a sock puppet editor, then who are you claiming is my main user. Also, please back any accusations [13] of things i've said on wiki up with a diff. I have done as much for my claims against you. Onyx86 23:08, 24 October 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Restated statement

If I could ask both participants to restate briefly in summary form what the issue is, as far as content is concerned, leaving behavioral issues out for the moment, I think we might have a better idea. Perhaps 5 sentences or less. Mercury 01:09, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Onyx86 The claims such as "RAW Rolling Papers being the healthiest to smoke" and preceding related speculation[14], should be removed from the article. Source is not credible, as other users than myself have also pointed out. [15] [16] [17] [18] The problem paragraph was not fixed, merely reworded in a more confusing manner. He then removed the advert tag from the article himself, which I don't think is suggested [19] -Onyx86 05:09, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Mrtobacco Mercury, this guy is an admitted sock puppet for American Weigh & Classic wholesales, a competitor of that brand the page is about. He has admitted such in his history. I will not participate in any mediation with a sock puppet. I'm about to hit my 1000'th post! He will keep posting against his competitors brands because he's paid to, over and over again. Please close this mediation, I am not going to discuss this with a sock puppet (check all of his history, there is no need for me to make references, just read his contribs). ONyx86 please do not reply below, I know you're paid to but please just go away. Have your bosses pay you to go sell product instead of concentrating on trying to hard to put down your competitors products. I appreciate your removing the cocaine grinders from your website and the crack pipes (you called them pyrex glass straight tube cigarette holders) - note that you removed them 6 hours after I posted about you selling crack pipes and cocaine grinders with eight balls on them1 - but they are still in your catalog and I called yesterday 800 706 SALE and yes you guys do sell pipes and glass pipes at that, plus scales, etc.. Please close this Mediation Mercury, can't mediate between me and a sock puppet sorry. --Mrtobacco 15:58, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

That website says herb grinders, and besides that it isn't even a Classic / American Weigh Scales site. Nice try though. Why haven't you put any effort into supporting your claim that RAW papers are the healthiest. Onyx86 16:41, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
I don't need to put any effort into that, the page was already redone and it was a minor point. As for that page That is Classic / American Weigh's product in there isn't it? - Glider Grinder (you took down www.glidergrinder.com last week but it still goes to your main webpage, so you must admit you own Glider Grinder)Cocaine Grinders grinders and pipes. Do you also sell those little baggies ? I really do want this to stop, I don't like talking with a sock puppet who sells dildoes, bootleg items and drug paraphernalia. I'm perfectly willing to remove every comment I ever communicated with you and really would like to do so. --It's just a plant 17:30, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
The issue is the health claim to RAW rolling papers, and the lack of credible sources. We were asked to leave the behavioral issue aside for now, so you should have stopped your crack pipe / cocaine grinder accusations. I haven't done anything to try and make HBI look bad, you have done that for me. Not once have I added any bias or advertised any American Weigh scales, merely removed a claim that was poorly sourced, and misleading... Other users have also removed it in the past, until you replace it, disregarding wikipedia guidelines. This should have been a simple issue, had you simply offered to support the claim. Instead you have misrepresented my words and tried to elaborate on my COI to try and make me look bad.Onyx86 17:45, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
You're still not getting it, I don't care if I make you or your competitor look bad. I don't have to protect a company like you do. I don't work for Republic and I don't work for HBI, I'm quite retired but still don't want to spend time talking to a wall. --It's just a plant 18:03, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Closing

I'm sorry it did not work out, I'm closing this request. Mercury 21:45, 27 October 2007 (UTC)