Wikipedia talk:Requests for comment/PUNKNYC
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- ==Response from PUNKNYC==
Look guys, unless one totally obsesses with Wilkipedia 24/7, you need a road map to meet the criteria for all the steps to going into arbitration and disputing vandalized pages by posters who are hell bent on distorting the history of hardcore punk with opionated views with not facts or sources to back them. I offered importants facts on Pat Duncan, Tin Sommer, Ben Manilla, The Mob, Bob Sallese and Jism in relation to early support and notable achievements in hardcore punk. User Auto movil and Spylab continued to delete or in the case of Auto movil, post blatant lies to dispute the facts that were provided with notable citations. At first they removed all references to Sallese, Duncan, Sommers, The Mob and Ism. Later they continued to removed references to Sallese & Ism. Let the record stand that Mr. Sallese produced the first hardcore compilation in NYC, with the first commercially aired hardcore song in the NY metropolitan area which boasts the biggest listening audience than anywhere in the world. Let the record stand that this led to the first commercially aired hardcore music show in the New York metropolitan area which was hosted by Ben manilla. Let the record stand that Mr. Sallese produced one of the only chart topping albums by Ism which debuted on Progressive radio's Top 100 while also producing one of the most successful commercial hardcore punk singles by Ism which hit # 6 on CMJ's new music composite. The facts and citations with references to exact dates have been posted both in the article and on my talk page. The fact is that Auto movil has posted blatant lies contradicting the facts with no citations backing his contradictions. In contrast, I have supported all my claims with direct citations to specific sources of the materials used for reference. Since today, I have been in contact directly with Mr. Sallese and Ism handlers and they have told me that they are more then willing to fax actual copies of any sources that have been cited to any party requesting them. Meanwhile, all references to Sallese, Jism and Ism have been omitted without a single link noting these important moments in the history and evolution of hardcore. Auto movil notes that there are seperate articles in references to these players but fails to point out that all links in the article have been removed by himself or spylab. Furthermore, he claims that I have posted multiple links to Sallese while I have posted only one. There were only two links to Ism...one noting chart topping moments in hardcore and the other establishing Jism as a member of Ism. Auot movil's allegations against me are without cause. In addition, both Auto movil and spylab have made numerous personal attacts against Mr. Sallese and false allegations damaging his reputation and have failed to remove these personal attacks upon request. All personal attacks and false allegations have been forwarded to Mr. Sallese and Ism handlers. I'm afraid that your rules are too involved for most of the other posters that have left an accurate account of the history of hardcore here and had it vandalized by the likes of Auto movil and friends who have made this article a vanity article with the efforts of promoting their own small clique of friends; who they have not demonstrated an importance to the history and evolution of hardcore by backing up most of their writings with verifiable facts, sources and citations.
If you are most interested in creating an accurate article about hardcore punk, then you must start to listen to the facts and not a bunch of vanity posters who are just a few who have obseessed and mastered your complex rules to posting here. Are you interested in anal retentive rules or having an accurate account of history? If the ladder is not of most importance, I am afraid the future of Wilkipedia is in jeopardy.
Okay. I'll run through this again. I see that there are a number of new arguments here that are very different from the old arguments. Rather than quitting my job and severing all meaningful relationships in order to devote myself full-time to untangling these claims, only to be met with further waves of them, let's just focus on notability.
I do not wish to respond to charges of personal attacks and/or vandalism, and/or what seem to be legal threats in the above response by user:Punknyc, except to note a tactic in which an individual will accuse others of his own actions in order to create a 'smoke screen.' If such charges continue, I will cite the record and invite Punknyc to do the same, to the disadvantage of user:Punknyc.
On notability:
- The article Hardcore Punk is a broad survey article that must cover many locales, topics, figures, and events.
- Big Apple Rotten To The Core was a notable early vinyl compilation, released by Bob Sallese, and I have maintained a reference to this album in the 'other notable early records' section, including a link to an as-yet unfinished article about it (which user:Punknyc is free at any time to edit and expand). That article would be a good place for this information. New York is only one of many relevant North American cities which produced such compilations, many of which were vastly more important. They are also not covered in detail in this article, and cannot be.
- The important and influential early New York compilation is not Rotten to the Core, but New York Thrash. Those unfamiliar may check the track listing of the one compilation against the other. New York Thrash includes the Bad Brains and Beastie Boys, while Rotten to the Core includes no bands widely considered important or influential, either currently or at the time. It's nice that it exists, and it is of genuine regional interest, but there's a reason why even experts haven't chronicled it.
- ISM was a Long Island hardcore band managed by Bob Sallese who released a single and album in 1983, on Sallese's S.I.N. Records. They are one of perhaps a hundred hardcore bands who released records that year, and are now known primarily via this article. Even if the above claims are true (which is possible but unproven), Ism were not even the most accomplished and mainstream-successful hardcore band in New York, let alone nationally or worldwide. (An out-of-print 1990 CD collection is subtitled, 'The Hits That Missed.') One example should suffice: Kraut, another Long Island hardcore band, had two EPs out by 1981, opened for The Clash, were played on MTV, and had Steve Jones of the Sex Pistols playing lead guitar on their 1983 album. Kraut would also have appeared on alternative-radio charts, almost certainly at a higher position. (A Kraut CD collection was released in 1995, and remains in print.) While interesting and relevant for an article on Kraut or New York Hardcore, this material is also not covered in detail in the survey article on Hardcore Punk. This is because the article cannot be tens of thousands of words in length, which it certainly would be if every notable band in every city were given such coverage.
- If I may put this simply, the attention that Ism has received on this page represents a significant percentage of all material devoted to Ism on the Internet. There is apparently a book for which Sallese was consulted, in which he recounted stories involving the band. This citation does not increase their relative importance or notability.
- The claim that Bob Sallese was in some way responsible for inventing, introducing, or popularizing the term 'hardcore punk' has changed several times since it first appeared. The latest version is that Sallese used the term in mid-1981, in New York, and that it was picked up by a writer at a college newspaper. If true, the claim reduces to this: Bob Sallese was partly responsible for popularizing an already-extant term in the New York area. This is interesting if true, but does not represent a key historical event. This is a canonical early citation of the term. It is a Vancouver album recorded in 1980, released in early 1981. It is checkable and well known.
- If I have missed any points of fact in the above response, regarding notability, I would like to reasonably suggest that further claims and assertions about the historical importance of Bob Sallese be judged according to the ones detailed above. If, for instance, it is asserted that Bob Sallese was the first man to walk on the moon, that he wears the Hope Diamond on his pinky ring, that Bob Sallese invented water and can turn the world on with his smile, I would ask that such claims be provisionally discounted until compelling evidence is furnished to support them.
At this point I think the discussion can reasonably turn to the actions of user:Punknyc in repeatedly inserting unencyclopedic material into the article, despite warnings and in violation of several policies.
Auto movil 15:54, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
- ==Response from PUNKNYC==
The facts remain as they are. Sallese was the producer of the first NYC hardcore compilation and the first hardcore song to get commercial airplay in the NY metroplitan are (the largest listening market in the world). The fact remains that Ism's John Hinckley Jr. (What Has Jodie Foster Done To You?) was this song. The fact remains that this album prompted the first commercial NY hardcore radio show hosted by Ben Manilla on WLIR. The fact remains that Ism's "1983 A Diet For The Worms" LP debuted at #65 on Progressive radio's Top 100(combined airplay of reporting commercial & college/non-commercial radio stations"). The fact remains that Ism's 1983 "I Think I Love You" single hit #6 on CMJ's "New Music Composite (Combined radio, club and retail reports)" listed below Style Council, Pete Shelly, New Order, Kinks and Devo & above, Wide Boy Awake, David Bowie, A Flock of Seagulls, Blancmange, Alan Vega, The Cure, Elton John, Kajagoogoo and Shriekbak at #15. Not a bad moment in the history of hardcore... George Hurcella points out in his book how Jism and Sallese attempted to bring hardcore into the mainstream. The fact remain's that Auto movil continues to point out that there are seperate more detailed articles on these key players and yet continues to remove any links to those articles which fails to provide readers with a useful encyclopedia. The fact remains that Auto movil has made it clear that he believes Kraut has made significant contributions to hardcore and equally significant achievements in commercial radio yet he fails to provide citations to these claims. The fact remains, that I myself have pointed out the significance of not only Kraut but other key players that have been left out or removed from the article because they do not fit into the agenda of those monopolizing it. My contributions and all the facts mentioned above have been cited with specific sources in the formats that have been vandalized. I went a step further and contacted the parties mentioned and they accepted offers to fax me or Wilkipedia any documentation requested. I suggest that Auto movil continues his search for verifiable sources as I would like to do also so I can contribute more to the article. People like Lenny Steel of Pure Hell (playing with early A7 band Butch Lust & The Hypocrites) and Jack Rabid are entirely left out. A7 itself is not focused on. The significance of A7 on hardcore in NYC is hardly debatable. I say give Kraut their credit for what they have done and cite it. I am not the vandal here. I have not vandalized anyone's inclusion. I am a truth seeker and will continue to seek the history of hardcore with emphasis to NYC since this is the subject that I know best. I see that Auto movil seems obsessed on removing any link to Jism, Sallese and Ism. In previous episodes of vandalism, he continued to remove links to Pat Duncan, Ben Manilla, Tim Sommer & The Mob until I brought it to attention in edit comments and on discussion pages. I have offered facts with credible sources going back as far as 1981. Auto movil has disputed those facts with his opinions or citations that have no bearing on the issues. You can not have an accurate history of hardcore if mentions of Pat Duncan, The Stimulators, Bob Sallese, Jack Rabid, The Beastie Boys, Tim Sommer and The Mob continue to get vandalized. The same goes for Kraut and a few other people and bands. These were some of the key players from NYC and they all had their share of rivals or those jealous of their accomplishments. I'm afraid Auto movil is one of those people. At least he has no vendetta against Kraut. I would like to continue to contribute to the artcle but will not be part of a fairytale or false reality. By omitting key players and leaving in his favored players, he has turned the article into a work of fiction. The fact remains that Auto movil has posted blatant lies disputing the citations listed in the vandalized articles without any rhyme or reason to back up his false claims. Furthermore, the personal attacks on Mr. Sallese in the discussion boards are a violation which Wilkipedia has yet to take action on.
Right, as I've said many times, the article on New York Hardcore definitely ought to include all of those important regional New York bands and figures -- several of which I did not in fact delete, but added to the Hardcore Punk article.
- Which is not only about New York Hardcore, but about many cities.
- The New York Hardcore article is about New York Hardcore.
- That's where detailed information on New York Hardcore should go.
- The Hardcore Punk article covers a larger territory.
- That's why not everything about New York can be in it.
Pardon me for repeating myself, but that point has proven very difficult to get across in this discussion. The real issue -- the ever-recursing issue -- is that the name 'Bob Sallese' is tirelessly added to the main Hardcore Punk article for one reason after another. This is just the most recent set of excuses for adding 'Bob Sallese' to the article. After these are exhausted, another set will appear.
I have covered the notability of the Bob Sallese material above. This was not the first time, and I pray God that it should not be necessary to cover it again. Lives are for living. Why am I here?
Back to business. Whether or not User:Punknyc is in fact Bob Sallese adding laudatory references to himself to Wikipedia, which seems ever less unlikely, this RfC is to discuss persistent editing violations including POV, sock puppetry, ignoring warnings by admins, blanket deletions, and the as-yet unexplored category of personal attacks. I would ask that User:Punknyc respond to these issues. Auto movil 19:14, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
- Let's stop the double talk. You seem more than likely connected to a band jealous of the commercial airplay of Ism in the 80's. First off links to Duncan, Sallese, Sommers, Manilla and Sallese and The Mob were vandalalized many times. Coincidentally, these were all important players in the hardcore movement and all gave the band Ism some notable attention or had ties to Sallese. After that you left in the links to Duncan, Sallese, Sommers, Manilla and vandalized the link to Ism & The Mob. Then I restored the link to The Mob. Then the vandalization of the one and only one link to Bob Sallese occured. This is all about your jealously towards one band and their manager / producer who also happened to release an important comp and promote other hardcore bands in the early days. All the players mentioned anywhere in the article are REGIONAL...LOL...let's be serious... they are from one region or another. Let's cut to the chase and tell us why you are so jealous of or have an ax to grind with Jism & Sallese or anyone in the movement that supported this band. We can go back and forth with this a million times. I thought this Rfc was to resolve the issue of vandalized single links, with explanations and citations,to key players in the genre. I have spported each and every fact with citations while you have let your opinion of who was more important than the other be your only defense. The truth speaks for itself. The verifiable citations speak for themselves and there alot more to be dug up. Quite frankly, if any of these key players were writing the article it would be much more accurate. You like to make accusations about anonymous posters but fail to identify yourself. The bottom line is whether the truths and merits of these individuals been posted with citations and they have. This is an encyclopedia and not an article about your opinion of who was better than someone else. Certainly, the one link to Sallese, Jism & Ism are worthy of publishing for those wishing to gain more knowledge about "early support" and follow through with the links to more detailed information on thier contributions to hardcore punk.
This is so far from what happened that I believe there's going to be a lot of explaining to do, sooner rather than later. Please post examples of these claims after reviewing the RfC again. It was filed because of persistent violations by User:Punknyc, despite warnings, including a Final Warning by an admin.
It might be an effective tactic in the short term to throw out ever-changing accusations against other editors, without evidence. But the issue here is still persistent violations by User:Punknyc, none of which have been addressed by User:Punknyc.
Another tactic effective in the short term is changing the subject. I'm under no obligation to 'identify myself' because of wild charges (personal attacks, in fact) that I'm 'jealous' of Bob Sallese. Nor is any other editor here, for any reason. It makes no difference whether User:Punknyc is Bob Sallese or some kind of devoted Bob Sallese fan. What matters is that the material in an article is factual and NPOV, no matter who writes or edits it.
For the record, I have no personal involvement with any bands, figures, or events named or described in this article. A fact of interest is that I could very easily be included in this article under Wikipedia guidelines, but have not added such a reference (and would not).
I said before that I wasn't interested in being all aggrieved and complaining because of the personal attacks. This doesn't mean that you can just keep doing them. I would ask that they stop, and ask that you re-read the passage in bold above. Evidence of personal attacks is easy to find on one side of this discussion. It is very scanty on the other side. I would prefer to leave it at that.
It's necessary to ask User:Punknyc directly to please address the very simple and plain business at hand, which begins with persistent additions of non-encyclopedic material into the Hardcore Punk article, even after being warned to stop by an administrator. Auto movil 22:53, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
- All additions in the last version furnished by myself ( which has been omitted for now) were encyclopediic material with cited sources.
- All material in the last version of the article furnished by myself is factual and has no POV refs whatsoever. *Most of the items are direct quotes from the cited sources.
- User Auto movil & groupies have changed the article several times leaving untrue POV comments about Sallese without any citations and I continued to correct the facts with cited sources. When they did not like that I provided the sources, which they requested, they removed the facts and link altogether.
- Auto movil's tactic is to say things that are simply not true as he has consistantly done here and on discussion boards and expect us to accept it. You can't hide from the facts and the facts have been posted, sourced, quoted and cited. I am completely surprised that this Rfc is even in order since each & every point vandalized in the last article I contributed to has been sourced and cited with no POV comments unlike those of which Auto movil contributes with and are left untouched by his groupies posting here.
- The bottom line is:
" THE FACTS, THE SOURCES, THE CITATIONS HAVE BEEN SUPPLIED AS REQUESTED. *POV CONTRIBUTIONS BY OTHERS REMAIN IN THE ARTCLE. *CITED MATERIAL WITH LINKS CONTRIBUTED TO THE ARTICLE HAVE BEEN OMITTED. *Auto movil & GROUPIES' PERSONAL OPINIONS OF SALLESE, ISM, SOMMERS,MANILLA, DUNCAN & THE MOB HAVE LITTLE BEARING ON THEIR ARGUMENTS. *THE CITED FACTS ARE WHAT COUNT.
- Auto movil's POV opinion of what is important and what is not should have no bearing on factual information and links to be included in the article for those wishing to extend their research on the subject of "hardcore punk" further. All their other rants are simply a smokescreen to get Wilkipedia to omit or distort cited facts for their own personal agenda. That is not what having an encyclopedia is all about. Enough said.
It's necessary to provide more than angry assertions that you are right and other people are bad. This is called 'projection': It's when someone simply redirects criticisms made of himself, throwing them instead (often more loudly and sweepingly) at others.
This discussion resembles, to me, a discussion with a crazy person. If not for obligations in the real world, I would earlier have posted quotes and other evidence of this discussion's earlier stages, on various Talk pages, in which I nicely and non-challengingly explained basic Wikipedia policy and explained why repeated reverts of the Bob Sallese material was inappropriate, several times. I will post these next.
I dealt with notability above, on this page. If you would like to dispute the findings above, please address specific claims and provide evidence.
Again, it's necessary to repeat in asking User:Punknyc to please address the very simple and plain business at hand, which begins with persistent additions of non-encyclopedic material into the Hardcore Punk article, even after being warned to stop by an administrator. Auto movil 22:53, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
- Stating the facts and providing the citations to the facts in the article are not "angry assertions". Your POV butchering of the article without citation has made your entries non-encyclopedic material. For instance the article now states "The Long Island commercial station WLIR featured some hardcore on late-night shows." This is an untrue statement and a POV entry with no citations. My entry concerning the accomplishments of Ism, Jism & Mr. Sallese explain what promted this show and that it was indeed a regular hour-long hardcore show. The entry provides all the necessary citations and in the case of the WLIR reference, the citation is an exact quote from an article in 1982 by Dave Atfeld. The entry in question is the following:
- Early support in New York City & New Jersey came from Pat Duncan who hosted live punk and hardcore bands weekly on WFMU since 1979. [1]
[2] and Tim Sommer who hosted "Noise The Show" on WNYU [3].
Bob Sallese & Jism (singer) of Ism attempted to bring hardcore into the mainstream with the release of The Big Apple Rotten To The Core. (Hurchalla, page 112, Zuo Press,2005). Ism's "John Hinckley Jr. (What Has Jodie Foster Done To You)" became the first hardcore song played commercially in the NY area. [4], (Mark Nardi, QC Quad, page 35, March 30, 1987) The song was nominated for "Screamer of the Week". (Dave Atfeld, Newsbeat, Oct. 4, 1982) Ben Manilla of WLIR featured The Big Apple comp and other hardcore on "Midnight Snack" . The show produced "such a favorable response that the Monday 'Midnight Snack' " became "an hour-long hardcore show". This became "the first hardcore show on a commercial N.Y. station" (Dave Atfeld, Newsbeat, Oct. 4, 1982)
- The other entry in question concerns chart making moments in hardcore punk history which you have disputed on the discussion pages and provided no source for your disputes while putting up vanity discussion about other bands and making similiar claims. The difference between my assertions and yours is that I provide citations. Anyone who knows anything about the music industry is familiar with CMJ and CMJ charts. This is especially true for alternative music. The other excerpt in question is the following which provides the proper citations from CMJ:
- In 1983, hardcore topped the New Music charts (compiled from a composite of radio, club and retail reports), with Ism's remake of I Think I Love You hitting the #6 position (CMJ New Music Report, June 6, 1983). Their followup 1983 debut album Diet For The Worms, debuted at #65 on Progressive Radio's Top 100 (CMJ, New Music Report, January 16, 1984).
It's about time to remove your POV entries like that of one about WLIR which are non-encyclopedic in nature and restore the article to the fact based information page which I helped to contribute to. I provided the facts and citations about The Mob, Scott Eisner, Decline of a Western Civilzation, Pat Duncan, Tim Sommer, Bob Sallese & Jism. In some cases these names already appeared in the article but I clarified the entries and turned a POV article into exact encyclopedic material. In turn I reverted the article several times from the consistent edits which omitted citations and turned the article into a fairytale. While you and a your groupies saw that I would not let your POV statements about WLIR, Sallese and Ism remain and that I could indeed provide the citations disputing your POV entries, you removed the links altogether. I would go a step further and say that some of the earlier versions leaving in these names with no citations and POV comments were indeed personal attacks in nature.
Ok. We've covered this already. The citations are welcome on principle, but they're not new ones. They represent a mixture of:
- 'Citations' to other Wikipedia text written by Punknyc, all concerning projects by Bob Sallese
- Citations to a [blog post based on an email] written by an individual who appears to be affiliated with Punknyc, and is certainly personally affiliated with Bob Sallese
- Cites that I myself added to the article (such as the one for DJ Tim Sommer), claimed here as things unfairly removed from the article,
- Cites that aren't immediately checkable (such as the CMJ charts and the college newspaper Newsbeat) -- incl. a book in which Bob Sallese makes similar claims about the historical importance of Bob Sallese
- Actual citations that are verifiable and say what they purport to say.
Basically, if we accept the CMJ chart cites, we have a band that reached #6 on the CMJ charts in 1983, and reached #65 in 1984. They got some airplay on a NY commercial-alternative station. We have some relevant information on New York-area radio shows, mostly added by myself after paring down a big paragraph that dealt with 'radio' only as it concerned Bob Sallese/Ism.
Is this uniquely important or notable in the context of the article? No. (See the breakdown on 'notability' above.)
Is it interesting? Sure. It would be good for the article on New York Hardcore.
Will it be added and re-added and super-ultra edit-war reverted into the main Hardcore Punk article, in three separate spots, despite anything anyone has to say about it, and even after administrators ask that user:Punknyc stop adding the material into the article? That is the question this RfC is meant to answer.
Now I must ask for the fourth time that User:Punknyc please address the issue of violating Wikipedia policy that led to this RfC. I must ask that User:Punknyc stop revisiting the validity of the material with new phrasings of arguments that should, by now, be long settled; and that he please stop attacking other editors with new claims of bias, jealousy, POV, vandalism, etc.
I must ask, after all these thousands of words, whether Punknyc admits or denies disregarding a Final Warning by an administrator. This is a direct question, easily answered. Auto movil 20:59, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
- All citations are relevant and can be verified. In fact, everything I added, I had heard about or read somewhere else and sought verification to contribute to the article. This is something that you are not willing to do. I even contacted Ism handlers and they have been gracious enough to offer Wilkapedia any documentation. Then I was attacked for having known how to contact the right people. Had User Auto movil done his research, he would find there is Ism info and contacts available on the internet which I have also quoted from and verified the sources. In any event, the facts are given, the citations are given. User Auto movil does not like the facts, does not like the sources and has made it clear that he believes that his opinions of certain individuals and bands are more important than the verifiable facts. User Auto movil has showed little effort into doing research before contributing to the article and instead insists on contributing with POV and opinionated sentences.
OK, do I deny disobeying a final warning from an administrator? Yes I do deny this because I don't even have the slightest notion on who the administrators are. User Auto movil could be one for all I know. I admit to not knowing my way around Wilkipedia as good as others and that's about it. I do not spend 24/7 on Wilkapedia. However, I have done valuable research and contributed to this article. The facts are what matter in the end and if my verifiable contributions continue to be vandalized, I would bet dollars to donuts that some other user will once again post them. I have been reading this article for a long time and got a bit disturbed by all the POV contributions that were in error. As I pointed out before, I added, cited or corrected POV excerpts about The Mob, Scott Eisner, Bob Sallese, Ism, Tim Sommer, Pat Duncan, and "Decline of Western Civilation". In fact I went out of my way to get the source to the bit about The Mob and Scott Eisner. I should be commended but yet I am condemned. I can continue to add even more valuable information to this article and other articles in Wilkepedia and learn the finer details in posting and the who the administrators are and what their functions are. User Auto movil would like to keep valuable, verifiable facts and sources out of this article and will stop at nothing to do so. What is most important in the end; having accurate accounts with citations or having a POV article written by a select few because they have mastered Wilkapedia skills better than the average reader? If Wilkapedia wants to continue to be an encyclopedia of the people, they need to put a stop to these mondern day internet pirates that will stop at nothing to distort the truth. The facts and citations should remain in the article. History should not be distorted. The links and explanations with sources to these key players are necessary for readers to extend their research. Have a good night.
Actually, our contributions break down like this: I wrote and redid the entire article in 2004, refining it over two years with the help and contributions (incl. additions and deletions) of a lot of other people. Punknyc added stuff about Bob Sallese and various characters connected to Bob Sallese, reverting any edits.
Now, about the warning. How was it not clear that when a 'final warning' appeared on your talk page, saying that further action would lead to suspension, it meant what it said? Auto movil 00:34, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
Look, I don't want to argue with you. I'm sure your contributions and time dedicated to this article have been greatly appreciated. However, this is still supposed to be an ongoing project to get the most informative article perfected so people can continue their research. This goes for all articles in Wikipedia. I saw other edits and refinement over the years as well. Some were correct and some were just plain wrong. I too refined the article to clear up the matters of which city was more important than another, the actual story of The Mob and Scott Eisner and the how the term "Hardcore punk" evolved similtaneously in different areas at around the same time. I offered citations that no one else was offering. I did the research. I got in touch with Sallese and Ism handlers. Am I a fan? Of course I am a fan, that's why I knew so much and had access to some of the citations. The others I sought. It's been a shame that the names of Pat Duncan & Tim Sommer were absent from this article for so long. It was also a shame that while Bob Sallese, Ism and The Mob were mentioned over the years that the stories were misleading or just plain wrong. (ex. what led to the commercial airing of Ben Manilla's hour long weekly show). All I know is this...hardcore was pretty much dead in NYC before the Big Apple comp came out and the commercial airplay began. It re-ignited the movement for years to come and helped give many new bands exposure for years to come. There are quite a few regional bands and names with links in this article mentioned. Many of whom may or may not be as important in their regions. What I do know is that NYC is a major market and was a major player in hardcore punk and afterall it's founding fathers of punk began in NYC. These names I added or refined the references to and a few others unmentioned like Jack Rabid are necessary for people to continue their research. I am still astounded that there is not much more on the club A7 which without, there would have never been hardcore in NYC. All the early bands were there. They played there, they hung around there, they networked there. I am pleased that this article exists and happy that you have contributed to it but you must give others a chance to refine your entries with citations as I have done. Some of the accounts in the article were just plain wrong. The links and brief explanations with citations should stay.
About the warning...I have have not seen it and don't even know who the administrators are. Are you an administrator?. Quite frankly, I need a road map to find my way around here. It took me forever just to figure out where the proper place to make this response was. I do believe that the complexity and confusion in using Wikipedia has probably turned away many other possible contributors with valuable information in all areas of research. Simplification of Wikipedia is something that should be made a top priority.
I apoligize for not learning who the administrators are, not mastering the Wikipedia skills and not knowing my way around Wikipedia as good as some of you. I just haven't had the time and going back and forth in the editing wars have given me even less time to master those skills. However, I can not apologize for clearing up certain issues in the article with sources and good old fashioned research. I can not apologize for wanting to turn a POV article into an article of specifics backed with sources and adding links for people that can choose or choose not to follow them in an effort to get a better understanding of the subject and the people who were involved in it. I do get frustrated when the truth is compromised whether intentionally or unintentionally.
---
Welp, we've cycled around to the beginning again. It's frustrating to spend hours addressing these claims only to have them keep coming back over and over, unaffected by anything I'd said.
Re: hardcore being 'dead' in New York prior to the 1982 release of the Bob Sallese compilation, Big Apple Rotten To The Core... First of all, no it wasn't, and second, here's a citation. The following passage is from the liner notes to the New York Thrash compilation -- the big, major, famous, and still-in-print early hardcore compilation from New York:
"What you hear on this cassette documents the change that came about that shook the ossified New York scene to its very foundation. By 1981 New York had developed one of the best REAL punk scenes in the whole country."
That was, by the way, written by Tim Sommer in early 1982. It is a contemporary cite by a recognized contemporary critic of punk and hardcore (as referenced by Robert Christgau, the 'dean of rock critics,' in the preceding link). Further evidence of hardcore not being 'dead' in New York is that New York Thrash has a lot of famous bands on it.
I'm always afraid I've missed some small detail. Because now it could be like, "I didn't mean it was dead right exactly then. It was dead in mid-1982, between when those liner notes were written and when Big Apple Rotten to the Core came out and paved the way for the New York Thrash compilation to unfairly take all the credit, leaving no contemporary citations that are in any way checkable."
Or something like that. I have begun to live in fear of these exchanges, because they weaken my faith in the power of human reason. I'm not kidding.
If hardcore was 'dead' in New York circa 1981-82, there ought to be some evidence for that somewhere. What I'm trying to say is that you can make any counterintuitive claims you like, but it's not up to me to disprove them one by one, forever, as fast as they appear. It's up to you to prove them.
Now about Tim Sommer, et al:
Tim Sommer, The Mob, Pat Duncan, Scott Eisner, Ism, Ben Manilla, and the rest of these New York figures (all associated in some way with Bob Sallese) are not regarded as having national or international importance in any way comparable to such recognized figures as Minor Threat, Black Flag, or even Rodney Bingenheimer -- who was, among other things, the subject of a 2003 feature-length documentary film. If they are that important, I should like to see the cites saying they are. And by 'cites,' I don't mean the same old cites that come up every time, which are all either written by yourself, or have been 'planted' on someone's blog, or any of the rest of those tricks.
I'm not saying I'm super-smart, but I'm also not totally clueless: Maybe I've missed some information of genuine historical importance -- but if so, a reasonable person would expect that it would've left some traces in the historical record.
A note on citations: A cite proving that Pat Duncan exists (which he certainly does, and he probably still has that moustache, for that matter) is not the same thing as a cite that establishes his importance as a national or international figure. In fact, he isn't one. He's a longtime and beloved New Jersey college-radio DJ whose show can't even be picked up in New York City except under certain rare weather conditions. Reasonable folks can disagree. Reasonable folks must, however, eventually back down in the face of what I am still hopeful and perhaps naive enough to call the truth. The truth is when things are true. I wish you could see the way I hold my head in my hands as I write this.
This is truly a cautionary tale for editors such as myself, and if I had back the hours I've spent on this recursively fractal discussion, I'd spend them drinking.
So. Therefore, until the dawning rays of this particular revisionist sun break upon my wondering eyes (i.e., through citations), my unwavering and adamantine conviction is that these figures properly belong in the New York Hardcore article or other such articles -- if they belong in any hardcore-punk-related article at all, which in several cases (e.g. Scott Eisner, a writer for the Queens College student newspaper) is really debatable.
I'm afraid that I might have missed something again.
Oh yeah, A7. Important New York club. Contemporaneous with 171A and the CBGB's matinees. It's barely even on Google nowadays, unfortunately. Now, do you have any idea how many clubs would have to be in this article if every scene were covered? How about the Freezer in Detroit? OZ in Chicago? Raul's in Austin? The Marble Bar in Providence? The Lit Club in Hartford (followed by Pogo's in Bridgeport and Anthrax in Stamford)? Madam's Organ in Washington, DC? I'm just getting started here. The On Broadway in SF, Madame Wong's in LA, The Rat in Boston...
You might claim that these other, non-New-York clubs weren't as important. (Despite copious evidence to the contrary, of which I call only once piece at this time -- this foundational and early 1980 album. On second thought, here's another.) But the real reason you want A7 included is that Ism, a band whom Bob Sallese managed, had a song called 'A7.' That is, it's not about the club at all, but about getting more Bob Sallese stuff in the article. Again, material on New York clubs -- and A7 was a closet of a club, literally about 300 square feet -- ought to go in the New York Hardcore article. For obvious reasons. And if I may be so direct as to mention something empirical, my own band played A7 a bunch of times, and were scheduled there the night it closed. So please don't be all like, 'You weren't there, so you don't know,' or any of that whole thing.
Okay. Since it's clear now what a warning is, and who admins are, etc., what's the next stage in this discussion? Auto movil 21:28, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
- LOL, haha, A7 has a distinction and not because Ism did a song about it. Where is your mind at? It was THE place where every early NYCHC band got their start from The Beastie Boys to The Mob. It is the place where Henry Rollins got on stage and sang with Black Flag. It is the place where the Dead Kennedy's stopped in to do a show during the height of their popularity. It was the networking center for east coast hardcore.
No, I don't know who the adminstrators are and see no responses to the resolviong the incorrect edits that you have left on the page. For instance, that WLIR played some late night hardcore. Sorry, Ism & Black Flag were in regular rotation, day & night. Your other hacks have once again offered "theories" on the term hardcore when it is clear by documentation that it was first used in the movie "Decline of Western Civilization" and later popularized by DOA & Scott Eisner. Nothing has been resolved here. Encylopedia's are not for theories and not for posting incorrect & undocumented info like that referring to WLIR.
