Wikipedia talk:Requests for arbitration/Franco-Mongol alliance

The following discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

• PHG (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · block user · block log), notification
• Elonka (talk • contribs • blocks • protects • deletions • moves • rights), notification
• Daniel (talk • contribs • blocks • protects • deletions • moves • rights), initiator

[edit] Statement by Daniel

I ask that the Committee consider amending the above case; in particular remedy one, "PHG restricted", which was passed uncontested and currently reads:

PHG (talk · contribs) is prohibited from editing articles relating to medieval or ancient history for a period of one year. He is permitted to make suggestions on talk pages, provided that he interacts with other editors in a civil fashion.

I propose to make the simple change of "articles" to "pages". Although this may seem minute to the point of being redundant and a waste of time, I respectfully request that the Committee considers the comments made at Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/PHG's archived articles, and also respectfully ask whether Committee members feel that the current remedy is effective in dealing with this and similar situations in the future.

Thanks, Daniel (talk) 09:58, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Reply to Sam

The remedy explicitly allows him to edit talk pages, so he would not be restricted in that way. Given the history of PHG, it is (in my opinion) fair to assume that should these articles be deleted, he will simply create more on different topics and claim that the MfD does not mandate a G4 deletion as the text and subject matter is different, even if the disruption is the same in everything but subpage title. I feel there is little doubt the MfD will be closed as delete.

Furthermore, on the specific issue of userpages, I believe that findings of fact such as:

• "PHG has cited scholarly books and articles for propositions that the cited works do not fairly support",
• "PHG has isolated on a particular statement or quotation within a work and taken it out of context without fairly presenting the viewpoint of the source taken as a whole",
• "[R]eview of several of PHG's sourced edits versus the content of the original sources confirms that several sources have been cited in a misleading or distorted fashion", and
• "[PHG] has often failed to acknowledge any legitimacy to the concerns raised about his edits"

...suggest PHG will continue to edit medieval history userspace copies in a manner which contradicts the userspace policy, which states that subpages "[are] not intended to indefinitely archive your preferred version of disputed or previously deleted content or indefinitely archive permanent content that is meant to be part of the encyclopedia", as well as providing that "pages kept in userspace should not be designed to functionally substitute for articles or Wikipedia space pages" (emphasis mine). I believe a simple modification to the restriction will stop said disruption.

Respectfully, Daniel (talk) 10:09, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Reply to Brad

"I trust that he will be guided by the outcome of that discussion and not demand (for example) that he be allowed to keep created new userspace pages and requiring new MfD's if this MfD closes with a delete result" — if he does, I agree that this request is moot; however, given the text of his talk page over the last couple of days, I find this highly unlikely. Would you suggest immediately speedy deleting any futher userpage copies regardless of whether they apply to the letter of CSD G4 or not, leaving a warning, and then blocking if it reoccurs? I'd be happy to adopt that if you, as a respected community member (in this situation, as opposed to Committee member in a formal voting environment), feel that it is the best course of action. Daniel (talk) 22:03, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Statement by Jehochman

Original research is not welcome on Wikipedia. PHG has been asked not to edit certain topics because he has been unable to comply with this requirement for whatever reason. If PHG is writing about these same topics in userspace, there is a high probability that it is original research. We should not be required to spend even more volunteer time to debug each incident. There is no reason for an editor to compile original research in userspace, and Wikipedia is not a hosting provider. PHG should be warned that this activity is not allowed, and that if continued, the result will be a block. Jehochman ^Talk 12:04, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Statement by Elonka

I see what Daniel is getting at here, and I support it, but think that it could be even stronger. The problem as I see it isn't just that PHG is continuing to skate the edge of his restrictions, but that he has never indicated, even once, an acknowledgement that he understood what he did wrong.

This is actually symptomatic of a larger problem which I see with the way that the Wikipedia culture implements blocks. And I am speaking here as a professional online community manager, who has been doing this for 18 years. In a nutshell: When someone is disruptive within a community, and they are blocked repeatedly, you shouldn't keep letting them back in, unless the individual acknowledges that they understood what they did wrong, and further, that they are capable of promising that they're going to do better. Otherwise we are just setting ourselves up with a revolving door, where a disruptive editor just continues to disrupt. It is reasonable to give everyone a free pass for their first (and maybe second) block. But we should follow a three-strike rule. Three problems, and still no indication that the editor is going to do better, then they should just be "out".

PHG is a classic example of the problem. Even during his most recent block, he continues to argue with FT2, he continues to proclaim his innocence (see User talk:PHG#Block). Every indicator that I have seen from PHG, says that he is just going to continue with problematic behavior, that he is going to keep repeating the same arguments, and that he is going to keep on doing effectively the same things that led to the ArbCom case in the first place. In my opinion, what needs to be done is that he needs to be blocked indefinitely, until he is able to make a promise that he is going to do better. If he can't do that, then don't let him back. We've all got better things to do with our time, than to keep cleaning up after him. I do understand the desire to "hope for reform," but it has to be a reasonable hope. If PHG gave his word that he was going to try to reform, sure, I could have hope too. But he has not. --Elonka 19:23, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

(followup) Since PHG continues to violate sanctions (today he re-created an article in his userspace that had been deleted at MfD, and he is continuing to argue against consensus at various talkpages), I am requesting another block. Details and diffs are available at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Arbitration enforcement#User:PHG. --Elonka 23:31, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Statement by Abd

I became concerned, in following the MfD mentioned above, that the ArbComm decision was being misrepresented. I found it quite carefully crafted and precise. It did not generally condemn PHG's work, but noted problems with his sourcing. The FoF did not reject his work in toto, and it specifically asserted a continuation of an assumption of good faith, which would indicate that the sourcing problems found were not considered deliberate falsification of sources, but rather unintentional misrepresentation of a kind that, while less than cautious and careful, and certainly improper and worthy of reprimand, commonly happens when a writer has a POV. Combined with tendentious and uncivil argument, this justified a ban from editing the relevant articles, for a year, but participation in those articles, through Talk, was permitted and encouraged, provided it was civil.

In the MfD, however, I found many statements that exaggerated what had been decided, or even that implied the contrary of what had been decided. Thus, because much of this originally came from adverse parties in the Arbitration, it appeared to me that an original content dispute and conflict and resulting enmity between editors was being continued through the MfD. Rather than repeat all of this (I have no intention of blackening the name of any editor) I'll refer to the MfD, Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/PHG's archived articles. I placed a note above the editor comments flagging the involvement of editors in the prior arbitration, with no implication of impropriety; this resulted in a nascent edit war, terminated when another editor, who had, in my opinion, cross the line into edit warring and incivility, prudently self-reverted. (Though, without that, I would not have reverted, but rather would have followed WP:DR.) (This is described in an AN/I report, currently at WP:AN/I#Edit warring, general incivility at MFD - alert the media) My original notice was moved to Talk for the MfD. Other involved editors began commenting on my Talk page.[23].

It became apparent to me that there is a well of bad feelings about PHG and his contributions. I have no opinion about who was right and who was wrong (and both can be right and both can be wrong). However, the ArbComm decision did not do what was claimed about it, that I could see. I have no action to recommend to ArbComm, it seemed the decision was very clear and properly crafted; however, the decision only dealt with PHG, and there is another side to this, which came out in the MfD, where the most negative parts of the ArbComm ruling, which was precise and nuanced, were emphasized, and the positive aspects were ignored, such as the affirmation of ArbComm that good faith continued to be assumed, and the encouragement of PHG to continue to contribute, including to Talk with the history articles, where his userspace collection of materials might be of assistance. The deletion of the files (as has now been done) could be a hindrance to that contribution, though minor. There were other remedies suggested that would have addressed legitimate concerns without inhibiting PHG's legitimate work: for the concerns that he was using his space as a web host, the files could be blanked, leaving the working material accessible to him in History. For the concerns about the lost History, the files could have been restored from prior deletions or the like. The concern that the files would be a source of further incorrectly sourced edits was already covered by the ArbComm restriction to Talk; another editor would then have to take responsibility for the verification of any sources asserted and the appropriateness of the text. I would not, myself, ask for Deletion Review, since less troublesome remedies exist for PHG and I have no interest in the files, or the underlying dispute. My sole reason for making this statement is to call the attention of ArbComm to an abuse of an ArbComm ruling. If the ruling was, in fact, as negative about PHG as has been claimed, and I was simply out to lunch, I'd appreciate correction so that whatever disruption took place does not take place again. --Abd (talk) 23:22, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Minor update by Orderinchaos

The MfD closed delete two days ago. The rationale was: "Delete - Wikipedia:USER#Copies_of_other_pages is relevant here. User space is not a free pass to hide articles that were deleted.". Orderinchaos 21:05, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Update by Daniel

After the MfD closed as delete, PHG proceeded to recreate User:PHG/Franco-Mongol alliance and, when that was deleted per CSD G4, created User:PHG/France-Japan relations (19th century). He has also since been blocked again for violating the remedies of the case in the mainspace; see this section. Daniel (talk) 01:59, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Clerk notes

• Recuse, obviously. Daniel (talk) 09:58, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Arbitrator views and discussion

• I'm not sure that a change is required. The MfD is ongoing and I will not prejudge it, but if it results in the userspace pages being deleted then recreation would be barred anyway. If it does not, then PHG can continue to attempt to bring his userspace pages in line with NPOV and other policies and then draw attention on talk pages. I do not see the disruption on talk pages which needs to be tackled by banning PHG from them. Sam Blacketer (talk) 10:05, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
• The case closed less than a week ago. I tried to be precise in the wording of the decision in recognizing that the primary (though not sole) issue with PHG's editing was the introduction of questionable mainspace content, so the remedy was focused primarily on that issue as well. If it proves necessary, I am not averse to expanding the remedy, but I would rather do so on the basis of more than a few days' experience in the immediate aftermath of the decision. For what it is worth, I do not see PHG's participation in the MfD as especially problematic, but I trust that he will be guided by the outcome of that discussion and not demand (for example) that he be allowed to keep created new userspace pages and requiring new MfD's if this MfD closes with a delete result. I am more troubled by his creating new articles on the borderline of the areas from which he is restricted from editing in mainspace and I hope he will be mindful of the overall intent of the committee's decision. Newyorkbrad (talk) 13:41, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
• At this stage, decline. The decision was not arbitrary. PHG has made good contributions in some areas. Unfortunately he is also highly tendentious in others and while some of his editing is good, a significant part is unusable (and he doesn't seem to recognize this fully). The remedy for article space is to remove the ability to disrupt completely. But the remedy for other spaces does not need to be so blunt. Provided he can contribute usefully, his actions on talk pages are not problematic beyond management. For example, they can be ignored if they prove unhelpful. PHG is also under a remedy that clarifies certain kinds of conduct are disruptive, if they involve failure to acknowledge consensus, which is unusually not stated as a principle but as a remedy whose repeated breach is actually actionable. If PHG were to act in a disruptive manner, for example by creating fork pages, or adding bulk text to talk pages without fair cause, or otherwise, then there are normal administrative tools and approaches able to handle this. (As with most Wikipedia dispute resolution we don't use them unless there is good cause.) When I blocked PHG recently, I reviewed his talk page contributions and found some were acceptable, some were problematic; there was a concern but not yet actionable. If time passes and PHG continues to try and raise topics on which the community has deemed his editing unhelpful then a final warning that he would be blocked if he continues, then warnings and Remedy 4 would be the way to go, via usual admin tools and WP:TE/WP:DISRUPT/WP:CONSENSUS (and possibly WP:GAME/WP:POINT/WP:AE if applicable). I decline therefore not because it's not a concern, but because actually the community already has all it needs to fairly handle it, if/when it were to become intolerable. For an example of PHG being notified on his conduct, see User talk:PHG#Block. We should allow a degree of patience, but that's not without limit. FT2 ^{(Talk | email)} 16:30, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
• One of the reasons behind article space restrictions (not banning) is a hope of a reform. Restricting users from talk pages would lead nowhere unless there is disruption of course. -- FayssalF - ^{Wiki me up®} 16:39, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
  • The modification I proposed explicitly allows PHG to contribute to talk pages; see my reply to Sam in my section above. Thanks, Daniel (talk) 21:56, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
    • Yes Daniel but you are talking about disruption above which I don't see. The remedies are based on FoFs and not assumptions. We can wait and see especially that the MfD is still open. What I hope is that everyone accepts the decision of the closing admin instead of wasting time around DRv, AN/I, etc because that would definitely lead to 'disruption' - whether directly or indirectly. -- FayssalF - ^{Wiki me up®} 18:03, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
      • With PHG having recreated an article after it was deleted at MfD, and trying to create another page with a different title (now also deleted), I feel that this is no longer an "assumption". PHG has also been reblocked for disrupting the mainspace as well. Daniel (talk) 03:05, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
• Opposed to changing this case's decisions so soon. I'd give it a little longer to see how it plays out in practise. Matthew Brown (Morven) (T:C) 00:38, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page, such as the current discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The following discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:

• Elonka (talk • contribs • blocks • protects • deletions • moves • rights) [24]
• PHG (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · block user · block log) (initiator)
• Abd (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · block user · block log) [25]
• Sandstein (talk • contribs • blocks • protects • deletions • moves • rights) [26]
• Srnec (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · block user · block log) [27]
• AGK (talk • contribs • blocks • protects • deletions • moves • rights) [28]

[edit] Request by PHG

I am requesting that the above case be amended to the effect that User:Elonka be restricted from attacking me through abusive representation of the Arbcom decision. Elonka is trying to have me blocked indefinitely from editing Wikipedia [29], and is misusing Arbcom restrictions to achieve her means. Most recently, she pushed for a one-week block against me, based on a compilation of false statements and claims against me, which was implemented through a 60-hour block by an unsuspecting Administrator (User:AGK), later abandoned for a "20 hours time served" in the face of a numerous opposition here. As User:Abd summarizes, Elonka has been "exaggerating the ArbComm decision regarding PHG as if it were a weapon rather than an attempt to cool things down." [30]

Claims/evidence

• Elonka claimed that "He [PHG] started a new subpage that is related to medieval history: User:PHG/France-Japan relations (19th century) (though the title says 19th century, there is clearly a section on Medieval History within the article)" [31]. There was never "clearly a section on Medieval History" in the article in question (now France-Japan relations (19th century)). The article actually started with a reference to the second half of the 16th century, which is certainly not part of the Medieval period.
• Elonka claimed that I " re-created one of the pages that had been deleted via MfD: User:PHG/Franco-Mongol alliance (full version)", as ground to have me blocked. Actually I did not recreate deleted content as has been claimed, I only inserted a small link to an older version of an article ("Long version here") instead of the 200k content that had been deleted. I am also not prohibited from creating User subpages so the claim to block me is inappropriate.
• As soon as I try to contribute to Talk Pages, Elonka claims that I am "not respecting consensus at article talkpages, and is instead effectively copy/pasting his old arguments and continuing to disagree." [32]. This is highly untrue, as the discussions claimed to have me blocked were either new ([33], far from being consensual (with many users actually agreeing with me) [34], or totally legitimate [35] as they had not been discussed in detail yet[36]
• Elonka claimed the fact that I created a User subpage as ground to have me blocked: "He [PHG] started a new subpage that is related to medieval history: User:PHG/France-Japan relations (19th century) (though the title says 19th century, there is clearly a section on medieval history within the article)" [37] However, my subpages are certainly not targeted by the Arbcom restrictions, which only concern articles (as already re-affirmed by the Arbcom when a request to the contrary failed [38]).
• Elonka routinely misrepresents my Arbcom restrictions as affecting all history-related article, when in fact I am only restricted from editing Ancient History and Medieval History articles: "This user, User:PHG is restricted from working on history-related articles. The page may look good, but the user routinely misinterprets sources. Please delete, and block the user" [39].

Requested remedy

I request a fair treatment from the Arbitration Commity through an honest implementation of my Arbcom restrictions, and protection from users who try to bend the rules to do me harm. Specially, I request that Elonka be restricted against harassing me or misrepresenting my Arbcom restrictions or the nature of my contributions. PHG (talk) 11:28, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Clerk note: this statement has been refactored to within the statement length limit. — Coren ^(talk) for the Arbitration Committee 14:18, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Statement by AGK

I have commented several times on this issue. Perhaps it would be best if I reiterate my thoughts from AE: see here.

If any ammendment to be made, I feel that the most suitable one would be a clarification of the Committee's view on PHG's contributions and, by extension, his disruption. The initial restriction was very much, I feel, a message to PHG that his editing habits need to change. Rather than interpret the spirit of that remedy, and use his last reprieve from project exclusion and firmer remedies (which were very much on the table during the Franco-Mongol case) well, he has proceeded to duck around the fine points of the remedy (e.g., creating articles that fell just outside of the "medieval history" period, from which he was restricted).

I feel PHG's conduct since the initial arbitration case was closed has fell well beneath the standards expected of a project editor, and I think it harmful for him to be allowed to continue in this vein. Anthøny 12:21, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

{extended comment by PHG, removed} I do not wish to enter into yet another round of ping-pong. Anthøny 17:16, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Proposed Amendment, from AGK

This amendment proposed with a view to amending Franco-Mongol alliance to: 1/ cover all history articles, per recent gaming of the remedy's specifics, such that he is editing articles which, although very clearly related to history, are not covered by the remedy's boundaries of "medieval or ancient history"; 2/ include all pages of the project, rather than simply articles.

Remedy one of Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Franco-Mongol alliance is amended such that, PHG (talk · contribs) is now restricted from editing and creating any pages related to history, for a period of one year. He is permitted to make suggestions on talk pages, provided that he interacts with other editors in a civil fashion.

The "blanket" nature of this proposal, in that it covers the general subject area of "history", as opposed to specific branches of it, is proposed in light of PHG's recent progression from "medieval and ancient history", to more recent, renaissance history. It has become somewhat apparent that he will continue to roam around the countless branches of history, and it is a waste of both the Committee's and the Community's time to consistently bring in additional remedies, restricting his recent area of activity.

This blanket nature is somewhat drawn from recent cases, such as (and here I flinch, at having to drag back in recent cases) Privatemusings, where Privatemusings was restricted from all BLP articles. My proposed amendment to Franco-Mongo's fairly close-to-the-bone approach has the added advantage of noting that disruption to certain topic areas will not be tolerated, and will be handled robustly.

I am also open to further chopping-and-changing of this proposal, including to include either point 1/ or 2/ (see my introduction), although I obviously think that to be less than ideal. Anthøny 18:49, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Statement by Jehochman

PHG has certainly exhausted my patience. This request by PHG amounts to vexatious litigation. I request the arbitration committee address this dispute with greater vigor. At some point we must stop wasting time on disruptive users who show no sign or intention of improving. Can somebody tell me why we allow PHG to continue editing any history articles, or any articles, given the history of tendentious misrepresentation of sources? Is there any reason to think this is related only to Franks and Mongols, as opposed to Franco-Japanese history? Red flag [40] Jehochman ^Talk 12:59, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

• Response: he is permitted to continue editing history articles, because his restriction covers only "medieval and ancient history". Hence, his contributions to France-Japan relations is not a violation of his restrictions, as the subject of the article does not fall as applicable to medieval history. Of course, that's very much gaming the system, something which I was very vocal about when he first created that article. Unfortunately, the ruling is very clear, and with regards to that article, I'm on shaky ground. Anthøny 14:08, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
  • This is why the ruling has failed to end the dispute. We need PHG to stop pushing novel theories of history via Wikipedia. Jehochman ^Talk 14:12, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

• PHG, you have demanded far more than your fair share of attention. You fought tooth and nail, forcing us to spend inordinate amounts of time debugging your Franco-Mongol stories. Please understand that this will not be repeated in other areas of Wikipedia. You have not yet acknowledged the nature of past problems, nor undertaken to do better in the future. As such, I think it is time for you to take a break from editing, to reflect on what has happened here, and to see if you want to change your approach. Jehochman ^Talk 16:54, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
  • PHG, you previously denied that anything was wrong with your work on Franco-Mongol alliance. You were proven wrong and subjected to sanctions, but you never acknowledged your mistakes, nor promised to do better. Now you deny that anything is wrong at France-Japan relations (19th century). This is de ja vu all over again. Jehochman ^Talk 17:12, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
• User:Abd has their own problems with disruption, including close ties to banned User:Sarsaparilla and the Wikipedia:Delegable proxy incident. Their sudden involvement in this matter, upon invitation by PHG is a very poor idea. Jehochman ^Talk 19:12, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
• See also Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Christian Polak and PHG's upload log that shows repeated instances of images being uploaded without proper licensure. Until PHG undertakes to respect Wikipedia policies on content and copyright, editing needs to cease. Mentorship might be a reasonable alternative to banning. The current situation of unsupervised editing is creating a significant burden on other volunteers. Please respect our time and effort, and resolve this problem. The arbitration decision thus far has simply moved the wrecking ball from one location to another. Jehochman ^Talk 14:02, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
• Update. It is clear to me that PHG continues to build walled gardens of original research at Wikipedia. I urge the arbitrators to closely review the reference checking at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Christian Polak. For example, see this comment. Christian Polak has been cited multiple times by PHG in other articles, [41] sometimes as the only reference. [42]. It appears that the works of Polak, a businessman and amateur historian, have not been verified independently. PHG provides impressive looking references that fool a substantial number of casual reviewers into thinking that the information is reliable. See Talk:Christian Polak#Bibliography problem. PHG has been warned extensively not to do this, yet he continues full force. To make matters worse PHG has been extremely stubborn and combative when other editors point out problems. See WP:AE#Ethnic and religious provocation in particular. Jehochman ^Talk 15:16, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Could we get some motion on a motion, please? PHG has been blocked for one week, and is showing no sign whatsoever of accepting any feedback. They are heading inevitably towards an indefinite block. Decisive action now might avoid that regrettable result. Jehochman ^Talk 20:53, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Statement by Daniel

I still support my comments here. Cheers, Daniel (talk) 14:54, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Statement by Shell Kinney

This is nothing more than a regurgitation of PHG's complaints during the Arbitration case that were ignored then as they should be now. I have bent over backwards to help PHG edit productively including starting a DRV for him on the article in question for him while he was blocked -- I had sincerely hoped he could stick there and edit it in a way to show that he was going to move on and instead, the first time he has no interaction with Elonka in several days, we get this plastered everywhere.

I can't for the life of my figure out why he's become so fixated on Elonka. For instance, the case where he "recreated" a deleted page with a link to the deleted material -- I was the one who found and re-deleted it -- Elonka hadn't a thing to do with the case; yet every time it comes up, he blames Elonka. No matter how many people have tried to talk to him about that particular situation, he honestly seems to think that he was right and that I was wrong to delete it.

Obviously, PHG doesn't get it. Once he makes up his mind on an issue, he seems to be incapable of accepting any feedback or other viewpoints on the issue. Combine that with misguided editors with a cause like Abd and Dreamguy actually encouraging PHG's behavior and you're looking at a continuation of all the same problems with no end in sight. I'm honestly out of ideas on how to get PHG on track -- he refuses to go work in any of the other areas in Wikipedia that have interested him before, he refuses to be civil and calm, he refuses to accept any consensus he doesn't agree with and he refuses to stop these tirades against Elonka -- I'd be interested to hear if there are any suggestions other than blocking him any time he behaves in this manner. Shell ^babelfish 15:07, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Comment on Abd's remarks: I can only assume that Abd hasn't done much work in the area or researched the subject he's discussing. There are many scholarly works available that could be used for the article that don't require searching a rare book store. Shell ^babelfish 03:24, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Comment on the proposal being voted on: And/or?? Is this suppose to mean something along the lines of PHG chooses a mentor or has to use all English readily available sources? At what point would an "and" occur? Shell ^babelfish 21:39, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Statement by Abd

I became aware of this situation through the MfD mentioned above by Daniel.[43] I noted there that the ArbComm decision in the primary case was apparently being misrepresented, in the nomination by Kafka Liz and in the first statement by Elonka, and I felt that this was important enough to warrant flagging it above the comments. This began a minor edit war, terminated when User:Fredrick day, shortly to be blocked, reverted my compromise language with a grossly uncivil comment, then reverted himself. Other editors then allowed the brief warning to remain. This misrepresentation is at the core of this dispute, in my opinion. The Committee stated that it continued to assume good faith on the part of PHG, and it did not accuse him of actual "falsification" of sources. What we see in the complaint above is an assumption that everything from PHG must be examined with a jaundiced eye. That is, in fact, blatant AGF failure, contrary to policy, and itself sanctionable.

What I would urge ArbComm to do, here, is to look at the behavior of all involved (including myself) and notice and respond to policy failures, beginning with AGF. Above, I am accused of impropriety for allegedly encouraging PHG. I seek the guidance of this Committee.--Abd (talk) 19:07, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Additional note re comments by Elonka and question from arbitrator FayssalF: The article France-Japan relations (19th century), as might be expected from the subject, uses sources not readily available. We have before us an editor with voluminous contributions, with a few citations found suspect or misrepresented, and he created this article and put it up, a beautiful article on its face. Nothing about the article rings false to me, nor has any alleged fact in it been challenged. The matter of sources is raised in Talk:France-Japan relations (19th century) and the only ground asserted for questioning the sources is the ArbComm decision. I'd recommend reading the article and its talk page. If PHG had been found to have actually falsified sources, the matter would be different, and, indeed, a general edit ban might have been appropriate; but ArbComm pointedly avoided taking that step.

I find it quite disturbing that this article was speedily deleted based on nothing but a claim that it violated ArbComm restrictions, with PHG being blocked, as an additional result, on totally spurious grounds.[44] Notice that Elonka intervenes on PHG's Talk page, on the topic of the article and the block, with a radical misrepresentation of the topic ban.[45]. Further, in this edit, Elonka repeats a disturbing charge: That PHG is "continuing to argue at multiple article talkpages, in defiance of consensus." Consensus arises as a result of discussion and, yes, argument. If argument "against consensus" is not permitted, any consensus that appears is incomplete and biased, a rigid consensus is a fake consensus. If the argument is civil, but, say, stubborn, it may simply be ignored. It's a Talk page. My conclusion is that, while the editors in question doubtless believe that they are serving and protecting the project, the effect of their efforts with PHG is currently disruption and harassment and should cease. --Abd (talk) 02:55, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Statement by Elonka

Regarding PHG's copy/paste here of what he's already posted at ANI and WP:AE, I point to what's already been said in the ANI thread.[46] As for new comments:

PHG runs hot and cold. Not all his work is bad. But even with the good work, sometimes it's hard to tell which it is, because though he writes well and uses lots of footnotes, he often still creates "bad" articles that are full of original research, violate WP:UNDUE, and sometimes use bad sources which promote fringe theories.

I also see PHG's behavior as an extreme example of a larger problem on Wikipedia. The culture here has a soft spot for article creators, or indeed any longterm editor who has a history of good contributions mixed in with the bad, such that the community tolerates disruptive behavior for far longer than I think is wise. As a visual analogy, I equate one of these editors to a tank that rumbles over the countryside, creating a swath of destruction. Yes, a few new flowers (articles) that might not have otherwise been there as soon, do grow in its wake. But to see them, requires ignoring the rest of the tank's carnage, dealing with multiple weeds that have been planted at the same time as the flowers, and attending to the injuries of other "gardeners" that were wounded during the tank's passage.

So, to reduce this collateral damage, I would like to suggest an amendment of my own. One of PHG's tactics is that as he gets challenged, he uses increasingly obscure sources. I have spent literally dozens of hours in libraries, just to research PHG's claims. Some sources were not available locally, or even via interlibrary loan. When I recently visited Washington DC, I spent many hours in the Library of Congress, just to get my hands on some of the more obscure books that PHG uses. I have also often found myself up against language barriers, as I have had to work with text in Latin, French, German, Italian, Hebrew, Arabic, and at one point I even tracked down editors from the Armenian WikiProject to translate text from Medieval Armenian. Even now, PHG is citing works that are in a combination of French and Japanese, and to make things even more complicated, they appear to be non-standard works which are not available in any American library. When I pointed this out,[47] PHG suggested going to a rare book website to purchase them (at a cost of over $100 / book!).[48]

I still think that PHG should be permanently removed from Wikipedia.[49] But, if the community still doesn't have enough stamina for that, I would at least like to see the following amendment:

--Elonka 23:20, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

P.S. I can give a great deal more evidence about other problematic behavior by PHG since the ArbCom case has closed, such as creating articles which violate WP:UNDUE, and where he has been including inappropriate sources (of those that I am even able to check). He also appears to be linking to other articles, which, though they may seem to be reinforcing the information that is in PHG's new articles, as I'm digging deeper, I'm finding out that PHG created the older articles in the first place. Some go back to 2005, are completely unsourced, and follow this pattern of linking to other unsourced information which PHG had already planted. It's a bit complex to try and explain here in a short statement, but if the arbs want, I can pull this together on a subpage or something for review. --Elonka 00:10, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Proposed amendment, from Elonka

PHG is placed on an all-topic source restriction. He must use only reliable English-language sources, which are either easily available online, or commonly available in major libraries (as can be seen at Worldcat).[50] For other sources, PHG may make suggestions on article talkpages. If consensus can be achieved, per article, that a source is appropriate to use, PHG may then proceed. But even with English-language sources, if any editor expresses a concern with one of PHG's sources, he must cease using it until talkpage consensus can be achieved on its suitability.

[edit] Statement by uninvolved User:Ned Scott

I apologies if this seems inappropriate, but I felt I needed to comment here. I would like to echo some of the above comments, that Elonka has a tendency to exaggerate things. PHG seems to be trying to work within his limits, and in a way that is acceptable to the community, but it shouldn't surprise anyone that he's not perfect. It's one thing to say "Hey, PHG, you're in that grey area again, so be careful" and another to exasperate the situation.

In other words, there may be issues here, but there may also be a lot of undue weight. Unfortunately, as a community, we're quick to jump on the back of those who struggle with issues, even when that's not a good way to help the situation. -- Ned Scott 07:06, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Statement by uninvolved User:Slp1

I am disturbed by the way PHG wrote Christian Polak, bio of the author of many of the sources that he has been using in France-Japan relations (19th century). In creating this article today, PHG makes M. Polak look like a career historian,[51] when M. Polak is in fact a business consultant who does historical research "in parallel to his professional activities" (translation from the French).[52] (see page 9, sorry about the font). M. Polak's business career is entirely absent from PHG's version of the article, despite the fact that the information was available in the sources he himself used to write the article,[53] as well as simple google searches. I gather that this pattern of selective quoting of material to make a point is one that has been critiqued in the past. --Slp1 (talk) 13:41, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Statement by Srnec

I have three comments and two suggested amendments to the ArbCom decisions. Comments:

1. I dispute Elonka's rationale for banning PHG. I don't thinking remove an editor with a generally civil record and numerous good contributions is best considering the number of editors who purposefully stir things up, are constantly uncivil, and who make next to no article-space edits and are still part of the project.
2. In light of the numerous allegations of it, I should say that I think "incivility" a bad reason for serious action unless it is extremely abusive, which PHG's has not been. He has barely even been uncivil by the standards of some other editors who don't even have sanctions against them. Whenever we concentrate on incivility we are ourselves in danger of falling out of WP:NPA: since we are not concentrating on content but on contributors.
3. PHG has demonstrated a problem specificalloy with WP:UNDUE, WP:OWN, and WP:RELIABLE (I wouldn't say either WP:NOR or WP:SYN). 1. He supports representing all opinions found in sources that meet Wikipedia's (low) standards. Contrary to his beliefs, this is not the crux of the NPOV policy. 2. He has shown a marked dislike for any major changes to text he writes. He creates articles in obscure topics perhaps because he knows he can de facto "own" them (N.B. pure speculation). 3. He doesn't seem to realise that not all sources are reliable nor are even all statements in reliable sources reliable. A trained historian would not make the mistakes he makes because he would read texts critically. 4. PHG copiously sources his text and I have not encountered major OR issues arisen except out of accident. 5. He has synthesised material (perhaps unknowingly), but he has not really objected to fixing this, in my opinion.

Proposed amendments:

1. Elonka's amendation is wise (considering English-language to include any work with an English translation available). So long as there are all-pervasive source concerns with PHG's work, he should be forced to stick to more accessible sources, per WP:V. This should not apply to talk pages (where he can present his obscurely-sourced material for discussion, since obscure sources can be very good ones) or user subpages (where he can work on his obscure material, but where right is reserved to delete if the sources are determined to be wanting).
2. PHG should not be banned for incivility unless "incivility" is more precisely defined. Same for "ancient and medieval history": put down strict guidelines so we have no more of this damned grey area, which has led to abusive and unnecessary blocking.

Srnec (talk) 21:02, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Statement by lurker User:John J. Bulten

Amend the decision to state specifically ArbCom's view of the evidence, as this will guide the two chief combatants, as well as admins and community at large, as to what constitutes undue representation of its decision. I note mediation was closed due to "Participants' [plural] unwillingness to proceed with the mediation in good faith", [54] and I note in arbitration these two each accused the other of personal attacks, edit warring, and unfair presentation of viewpoints (not always under those heads). [55] As a first-year editor, I am still learning what WP:NPA, WP:EDITWAR, and WP:NPOV mean, and after much consideration I am still unable to discern from those pages why ArbCom judicially endorsed one party's accusations and made little to no mention of the other's. The ruling [56] briefly characterizes one party's edits wholly in terms of reference to the other party's characterization, and alludes to ArbCom's merely "confirm"ing allegations of misleading use of sources. In short, the ruling permits one to infer ArbCom found all arguments on one side to be persuasive, and none on the other side, which would seem to reflect poorly on ArbCom's impartiality and not to account for the mediator's finding of bilateral unwillingness. In its generic reply I fail to understand independently why any particular argument proposed by either side is valid or not. It would be very helpful to us newcomers to see a list of, say, three clear-cut, unequivocal examples of valid allegations in each category of behavior (attacks, edit war, NPOV) as endorsed by five arbiters, along with three clear-cut, unequivocal examples of allegations in each category which fail to rise to the level of attacks, edit war, or NPOV. For instance, I failed to discern any evidences which unequivocally rose to blatant misrepresentation, complete nonsupport, and total misuse as requested. [57] I believe this specificity not only would be eminently appropriate for ArbCom to publish, but also would greatly clarify to us how evidences differed one from another and would provide clear guidance to both parties as to how enforcement should proceed. Perhaps I am making an overture uncharitable to ArbCom's methodology, in which case I apologize and await being pointed to the proper means for handling the concerns I make obvious in this paragraph. John J. Bulten (talk) 21:57, 1 April 2008 (UTC) Found an excellent, balanced example of exactly what I mean (though I have not noted any such behavior from ScienceApologist personally). [58] While I have your attention, could you also tell me if other users beside the presenter are restricted to 500 words? Could be significant, and I didn't see that policy. John J. Bulten (talk) 16:50, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Proposed amendment

It appears I have leave to suggest the following first second draft built from WP:AP#Final decision, though bland:

• XXX has/has not engaged in YYY behavior. (diff of Incident 1) (diff of Incident 2) (further diffs) Repeated six times, where "Elonka" and "PHG" are each cross-combined with "personal attacks", "edit warring", and "pushing point of view". The "has not" cases would include 3 or 4 diffs presented formerly as evidence but which did not rise to the level of the disruptive behavior.
• User Elonka is reminded of the community's limitation against conduct unbecoming to admins, particularly attacks, edit warring, disruptive editing, failure to communicate, and gross breach of trust. (responsive to FayssalF)
• User PHG is required to provide a means for the Community to verify his sources. During the balance of PHG's one-year editing restriction, any of his mainspace edits not drawn from widely available English-language sources, as indicated by WorldCat.org, should be preceded by talkpage posting of the source in its context, and are subject to collaborative consensus as described in present remedy 4. (responsive to FloNight)

This seems responsive to the initial request. The alternative requests and proposals seem a strange interpretation of the extant remedy that PHG is encouraged to contribute to mainspace, and I repeat my call for ArbCom to provide clear characterization of its decision and this particular remedy. John J. Bulten (talk) 20:34, 4 April 2008 (UTC) With many thanks to FloNight, I have refactored the third point of my amendment to provide the specificity which I think any motions in this particular case will need. JJB 21:07, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Statement by User:Nsk92

I have become aware of this case only recently, while participating in an AfD discussion, currently still ongoing, for the article Christian Polak that PHG created. I will say for the record that I have never before crossed paths with PHG, was not involved in and was not aware of the ArbCom case regarding PHG and, even of this moment, am not familiar with the details of this case (nor do I want to learn about them). I have zero interest in the history of Franco-Japanese or Franco-Mongol relations and only participated in the AfD discussion because it was listed in Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Academics and educators. The AfD discussion Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Christian Polak had some tense moments but proceeded relatively peacefully for a while. However, it then had a flare-up of high drama and by now this AfD has become a rather unpleasant place and I plan to stay away from it. The immediate precursor to this flare-up was an edit by PHG [59] to Christian Polak. This edit introduced a statement that Pollak was awared Légion d'honneur (Chevalier) in 1989. If true, this would certainly have established the subject's notability. However, the reference given by PHG was a site in Japanese [60]. It turned out that PHG mistranslated the content of that site and it was eventually confirmed that Polak received a lesser civil award, Ordre national du Mérite. When the mistake was pointed out by other users, PHG quickly corrected the wrong info [61]. PHG was reported to AE by User:Jehochman, quickly blocked by User:Coren and quickly unblocked by User:El_C (see the discussion at Wikipedia talk:Articles for deletion/Christian Polak).

Several comments regarding this episode. Certainly, under normal circumstances, a mistake like that made by PHG in this case would not have warranted a block. However, it appears that in this particular case the editor, PHG, was on probation and was warned to be particularly careful with sources. I do not have an opinion regarding whether this block was justified, but what happened here certainly gives one pause, especially since PHG knew that this was a controversial AfD and that he had to be particularly diligent with his edits. I must say that, providing a Japanese website, without giving translation, as a source for a major French governmental award, strikes me as distinctly imprudent, even for an editor who was not on an ArbCom probation for problematic sourcing.

PHG does have his passionate defenders, such as User:John J. Bulten. I am somewhat sympathetic to their arguments that PHG was under a lot of pressure to quickly provide some evidence of notability for Polak since an AfD was filed so quickly after the article was created. But it does not really justify playing with matches next to a gas tank. The article should have been prepared carefully in a Sandbox first, and many of the current problems might have been avoided.

I must say, however, that I am less than positively impressed by the involvement of some of the PHG's prior opponents in this particular AfD. I think that Jehochman jumped the gun with his AE enforcement request and that Elonka's comments in the AfD did not particularly help to keep the temperature down.

I don't know what all of this means for this ArbCom case but I hope that we can avoid having AfDs degenerate into these kinds of battles in the future. Nsk92 (talk) 03:25, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Jumped the gun? I have been waiting patiently since September 2007 for somebody to stop the steady flow of unverifiable, or verification failing material, by PHG into Wikipedia. Forgive me for being hasty, but I have already waited a very long time. Jehochman ^Talk 04:22, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Update In the AE discussion of this case, Jehochman suggested mandatory mentorship for PHG. I support this proposal. I don't want to cross-post here, so please see my more detailed comments at AE discussion. Nsk92 (talk) 15:56, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Statement by Durova

I received a request to comment on a specific side discussion without being notified that the case itself was under a review request. This has just now come to my attention. The stricture on Medieval history needs revision because the designation is basically a European era and does not graft well onto east Asian topics. Apparently PHG is fluent in Japanese. Durova^Charge! 04:46, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Thank you very much for the motion. Durova^Charge! 21:55, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Statement by ElC

I could support a mechanism, such as binding mentorship, that would be set up to better ensure the extended restrictions work. But I do not feel that it makes sense to block PHG indefinitely until it's up and running. Also, Elonka needs to find something else to do if she continues to be so hostile to anyone who isn't in full agreement with her. Her "request" earlier today to that I "think hard about whether or not you feel that you are genuinely suited to keep on being an administrator" doesn't inspire confidence. Thank you. El_C 05:31, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

If there were mentorship, I would support removal of the topic restrictions, as they would no longer be needed. It is clear to me that the problem is related to sourcing methodology, not any particular topics. Jehochman ^Talk 05:36, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes, exactly; that's why I didn't use the word "topic" above. It does increasingly appear to be more of a universal methodological issue, than an historiographical one (as we first thought). I think in that event, the (binding) mentorship would, in effect, be the restrictions. El_C 05:40, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

This notwithstanding his tendency to overemphasize on Franco-*Asiatic connectedness (in general). El_C 06:10, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Well, that's what I known best about, and am best positionned to contribute. I also wrote a lot about British people or Americans in Japan though (William Adams (sailor), Anglo-Japanese relations, Japan-United States relations), but that's less of my area. Best regards :) PHG (talk) 06:18, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

I meant as an historiographical leaning, though maybe I could have phrased it more precisely. El_C 06:23, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Clerk notes

This area is used for notes by non-recused Clerks.

• Recuse. Daniel (talk) 12:10, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
• Recuse also. Anthøny 12:13, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
• I've asked PHG to shorten his statement, at 752 words, it's well past the guideline. — Rlevse • Talk • 12:33, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
• The "and/or" ruling has passed. I have asked the arbs a question about implementation and will take care of the whole clarification request when I have an answer. — Rlevse • Talk • 11:44, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Arbitrator views and discussion

• I'm minded to proposed an extension to our ruling to include everything, not just articles, given the sub-page issue (which goes clearly against the spirit of the ruling, as AGK notes). James F. (talk) 13:45, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
  • I would like to wait for user:Elonka's statement before commenting. Has anyone verified the sources used for France-Japan relations (19th century)? -- FayssalF - ^{Wiki me up®} 23:57, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
• After verifying myself some sources and hearing Elonka's statement I now support James' remedy and remind PHG that a serious encyclopaedia requires serious references - especially when dealing with important subjects. PHG needs to take this essential principle to heart regardless of the fact of being restricted to an area or another and regardless of assuming good faith or not. -- FayssalF - ^{Wiki me up®} 03:05, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
  • I will also ask Elonka to let other admins deal with the situation. Her multiple interventions has not been helping this case at all. -- FayssalF - ^{Wiki me up®} 14:35, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
• Support extending our ruling to include other Wikipedia pages, not just articles. Matthew Brown (Morven) (T:C) 23:08, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
• Support James's suggestion that we extend our ruling to include everything since the disruption is not going away. Hopefully, PHG will listen to the concerns expressed by the Committee that he needs to change his approach. As FayssalF says, encyclopedia content needs to have verifiable reliable sources. Occasional use of a rare source is not a big problem, but regularly relying on sources that most members of the Community can not access is problem especially when there are more than a few disputes about the content. FloNight♥♥♥ 14:22, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Proposed motions and voting

• PHG is required to provide a means for the Community to verify his sources. For the next year:

• PHG is required to use sources that are in English and widely available.

and/or

• PHG is required to use a mentor to assist with sourcing the articles that he edits. The mentors selected must be approved by the Arbitration Committee. In case of doubt raised by another user in respect of a source or citation by PHG, the mentors' views shall be followed instead of those of PHG.

Support:

1. FloNight♥♥♥ 20:00, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
2. Matthew Brown (Morven) (T:C) 20:52, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
3. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 21:27, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
4. Sam Blacketer (talk) 22:21, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
5. Kirill 02:41, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
6. FT2 ^{(Talk | email)} 01:36, 19 April 2008 (UTC) Ability for others to check (easily if possible) is always important; more so if there are concerns. Added last clause to 2nd option, without which it would not actually do much since "use a mentor to assist" alone is too vague.
7. Note that there are currently 15 active arbitrators, so a majority is 8. Newyorkbrad (talk) 14:35, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
8. Deskana (talk) 10:01, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Oppose:

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page, such as the current discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.