Wikipedia talk:Requests for arbitration/Asgardian-Tenebrae

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Contents 1 Non-party statements before the case was accepted 1.1 Statement by jc37 1.2 Statement by Neil 1.3 Statement by J Greb 1.4 Statement by ThuranX 1.5 Statement by uninvolved AGK 1.6 Statement by Doczilla 1.7 Statement by bloodpack 2 Work schedule 3 Delay 3.1 Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Asgardian-Tenebrae

[edit] Non-party statements before the case was accepted

[edit] Statement by jc37

Ok, since the goal is to try to stay within a word limit, I'll leave out the links/evidence for now. (And noting that this may likely be a more than a spoonful of beans.)

First, as has been noted by others, User:CovenantD is another "involved" user, and should probably also be a party of this arbitration, but isn't listed since the user seems to be currently inactive (since August).

This has been a long time coming.

I think it's mostly a question of Ownership of articles, poor Wikiquette, lack of honest communication, and how that's all causing genuine disruption.

User:Asgardian has a long history of less than communicativeness in response to his edits. Miscomprehesion, misunderstanding, misdirection, and subterfuge. It's a tactic that's worked rather well for him, actually. If he can continually extend a discussion until he "wears out" those in the discussion, they'll eventually leave, and he'll revert to his preferred version, with seemingly no repercussions. While User:Hiding has tried several ways in order to keep Asgardian a positive member of the Wikipedian community (Probation, article suspension, article protection, blocking, etc.), all that seems to have occurred is that the user has learned that if gives confusing answers, or answers to questions not asked, which confuses those on the page, and just general obfuscation, he can always come back and revert/merge his "preferred" version at a later time, in the hopes that no one is watching. I think it's comparable to Speedy criteria G4 about article recreation. Unless a new consensus is formed, articles should probably not be recreated. Same with Asgardian's edits. Hiding attempted to have this discussed on the Community Noticeboard, but was informed by User:Tony Sideaway that Asgardian needed to have a block history. The trouble with that is that the reversions are all in slow motion, so 3RR typically doesn't happen, and there usually is no point for "punitive blocks" after-the-fact. So instead, we've been protecting the pages in question in order to bring the disputers to the table. However (for one example), the moment I unprotected Vision (Marvel comics), with a request to continue discussion, Asgardian immediately reinserted his preferred version.

A rather telling example can be found in the edit history and talk page of Whizzer. In order to deal with that, the concerns were broken up into sections, which were discussed, and then I eventually closed each (when agreed to by both parties, or unopposed). And then Asgardian re-inserted his "preferred version" once again, even contrary to sections which he agreed with.

There are also issues with WP:BITE, in dealing with the "average" editor, or IP editor.

I've said previously that I feel that the user makes some good edits, but having to constantly watch him is simply becoming problematic. Especially due to his lack of (or lack of accuracy in descriptiveness in) edit summaries.

This leads to the other two. Just as Asgardian tends to be pushing his POV, at times, contrary to general MoS, or comics MoS, so two have the other two. It's not a matter of who's "right", it's that the three seemed to constantly be in some state of "war" of opinion over who or what's "right". Despite what Tenebrae said below, I believe he's stepped forward to offer to "police" Asgardian's edits nearly every time that Hiding has proposed probation, or something similar. Edit summaries (and lack thereof), and mass reversion/refatoring/editing have just created much confusion.

I think that "something" needs to happen. Temporary measures just don't seem to be effective. These are long term issues, and likely need a long term solution. - jc37 11:47, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

I completely support/agree with Neil's characterisations of the users and the disputes in his (16:14, 4 November 2007) statement below. Though I doubt that 1RR will work, based on the slow motion of things, it's probably a step in the right direction. - jc37 21:28, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Statement by Neil

I've been asked to comment as I have attempted briefly to mediate some of these issues before, and have blocked Asgardian on two occasions for edit warring. As Jc37, though, I will wait for all directly involved parties to comment first before commenting fully. I will say that I believe some sort of arbitration involvement is merited, as both parties' behaviour has not changed through less formal measures, and the situation is getting worse, not better. Neil ☎ 09:29, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Okay. Asgardian is knowledgeable on the topic he edits. He seems to assume, however, that this means he is always more knowledgeable than everyone else, and this overrides any kind of consensus. He is patient, pleasant, and polite, and will wait out any protections without complaining. This politeness and patience is what has allowed him to continue to tendentiously edit over a lengthy period of time without any real action being taken to date. Any revisions to an article he does not agree with are reverted, often under misleading edit summaries marked as minor. The incivility exhibited by Tenebrae is born out of frustration, I believe, rather than any malice. Asgardian will agree to amendments suggested on the talk page, and then revert back to his preferred version a day or two later. There is an ownership issue underlying this whole case. All other forms of intervention (including administrative blocks, page protections, and an RFC) have failed to derail his editing patterns. A firm and straightforward set of injunctions - with defined limits (1RR?) to reduce the capacity for edit warring and ignoring of consensus - is required. Neil ☎ 16:14, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Statement by J Greb

In looking at this, there are problems on both sides:

• Both have edited using less than helpful edit summaries. Though with Tenebrae this tends to be the exception, not the rule.
• Both have edited articles where they changed items through out the artile in one go.
• Asgardian has lied in edit summaries, both marking non-minor edits as minor, and cases like this [1] where he calls a blanket revert of others work a "slight tidy".
• Asgardian has also blindly reverted to the detriment of article.[2]

There is also a concern about how he phrases comments above an beyond his edit summaries:

• He has implied that other editors should start with suggesting changes on talk pages instead of actually editing articles.[3] This after his being reminded that blanket reverts should not be made, but that the concerns should be brought to the talk page.
• His posts also take a possessive tone.[4][5] Both of which would have been benign phrased as "I'll post some suggested reworks here (the talk page) later."

While I applaud Asgardian's willingness to take the time to work on article, and the knowledge of the subjects he brings to it. It's this possessiveness that he cannot seem to shake that is causing problems. Reverting ot remove the work of others that fixed links, grammar and spelling and brought an article into line with guidelines. Continuing to revert articles without discussion until they are either protected or multiple editors have to warn him. And comments from other editors that they avoid working on articles he's touched. Not because the articles are not in need of work, but to avoid the headache of having to fight tooth and nail to improve the article.

- J Greb 01:43, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Statement by ThuranX

I'd like to echo J Greb's concerns, first off. I have also noticed deceptive edit summaries from Asgardian, such as this non-minor edit removing sourced information [6], and have also been frustrated by his intractable determination at times that he's got the 'right version'. He can be engaged on talk pages, but it doesn't often work to ask, or to engage. It takes a lot of effort to get him into a consensus thinking mode. As J Greb notes above, people sometimes avoid Asgardian. I know I do at times. It's a Sisyphean effort sometimes to deal with changes to an article if Asgardian is there. A read through of the Awesome Android page finds about half a dozen editors speaking to Asgardian about his attitude for a period of a year, and he doeesn't seem to have learned from it.

As to Tenebrae, I have seen him discuss some recent frustrations with editors on Wikipedia, and he seems to find the fun being taken out of the project at times. However, he's responsive and cooperative on talk pages, regularly initiates and follows up on talk page conversations, and I have observed him to take the time to aid newer editors in fixing and editing pages. I'm inclined to find that Tenebrae's sarcasm in edit summaries is getting sharper and less 'jovial' as a result of increasing frustrations.

- ThuranX 13:59, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Statement by uninvolved AGK

Having looked through the Request for Comment on this matter, it is clear to me that the underlying problem here is an absence of the ability to sit down and Discuss the issues involved in a calm manner. The subsequent edit warring (which has resulted in protections on Blood Brothers (comics) and Galactus) stems directly from this.

Therefore it is my belief that the Committee should look at the issues of user conduct here - unhelpful editing and edit warring, and act appropriately in order to prevent further disruption to the articles in question. However, the content issues of the dispute are, in my opinion, unsuitable for Arbitration at this time: I firmly believe that, if directed in the correct manner and through the correct channels, it would be reasonable to expect a compromise.

Anthøny 15:04, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Statement by Doczilla

The following is a slightly tweaked copy of things I already discussed with Asgardian and Tenebrae on their talk pages this weekend. I wasn't sure about weighing in with this at all because I wasn't sure what I could say that I haven't already said numerous times [7][8], but they both responded well to this and several people have asked me to add my two cents to this discussion.

At a glance, it probably looks like the situation jumped from a handful of reverts and right into arbitration. How could someone not already familiar with the history see what the big deal is? It's hard for anybody who has been involved in these recurring edit wars to be objective, but it has also proven to be hard for anybody who hasn't been involved to see the overall pattern of what's wrong. Things have vastly improved, but it's still a hassle for each of you and for a lot of other folks. Everyone has gotten so frustrated by all the skirmishing that it has kept them away from Wikipedia for periods of time, whether they've stayed away for days or, in at least one editor's case, months. People can have differences of opinion and even heated exchanges over them without escalation to another level, if they agree on ground rules.

I just asked Asgardian and Tenebrae: Realistically, what do you think will have to happen to keep these differences of opinion from leading to more blocks, more admin board notices, etc.? Tenebrae says more people need to step up and comment whereas Asgardian says he needs more civility from others.

Re: People stepping up and commenting. Actually, so many comments have been made at so many times that it would only take one person (or two opposing people for balance) to link to the specific past discussions.

Re: Civility. After 14 months or so of these recurrent edit wars, so often over the same handful of articles, people will tend to chalk their own and others' less than civil remarks up to prolonged frustration, so it just becomes a case of finger pointing as to who's to blame regardless of who made the uncivil remarks.

Asgardian has said people hurt their own cases when they side with someone who can be obnoxious or even quote that person. However, pointing that out can actually make outsiders wonder why so many people would side with somebody who can be that obnoxious instead of backing the person striving to use calmer language. Besides, calm is not always good. We need some emotive language at times. Don't let the language someone else uses blind you to that person's message. Expressing your feelings is at least honest.

Tenebrae, you know you're ready to see the worst sometimes. Whether you're right to feel that way based on the history is a separate issue, but you can hurt your own case when you use more "emotive language" that might make an outsider ready to dismiss you as overemotional. You could blind arbitrators and other administrators to the point behind your message (see above).

Asgardian, after 14 months in which it's been you against a continually growing "anti-Asgardian bandwagon," you're going to have a hard time convincing outsiders that you're right and all those other people are wrong. You've acknowledged that you have ego issues involved in this (and, to be fair, you've said you're working on them).

When I asked you both about what needs to happen, you both talked about what other people need to do and not what you personally can do differently in the future. Plus, the things you mentioned that other people need to do are short-term actions, not long-term goals. Without some real changes in behavior, it really looks like these things will end only if someone gets banned. Now, we're not talking about an anti-Tenebrae bandwagon, so banning Tenebrae won't stop this. You know who that leaves. Please do not think I'm advocating for anyone to get banned, but 14 months of feuding make it hard to imagine that these edit wars will end any other way. Is this really how any of you want to spend your time?

Anyone who wants things to improve needs to talk about their own behavior and what they're going to do differently. Doczilla 22:01, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Statement by bloodpack

Ten and Asgardian, I really feel sad, knowing this has to escalate up to this crazy magnitude, seeing users presenting their own evidences against both of you. I really don't know what help I can actually lend at this point. I mean, where is this actually going? If I present my own evidence either for Ten or Asgardian, where would it actually lead us? Only hatred...with no clear solution. I only wish both of you could find a room, or even just a little to forgive and forget. Im not going to take any sides as both of you are responsible for your own actions. Both of you may have done something good, but both of you may have also done something bad. I know you two only wish to improve WP:COMIC with your own little humble ways. I really feel sorry, but Im still hoping that this arbitration can bring some hope, light and resolution to this dilemma.

At this moment, there's no more point to present or pinpoint evidences as it is evident that you two are culpable for this matter. I say, it is now time to focus on the best possible SOLUTION/PROCEDURE. Withdraw all accusations, withdraw all threats. Let us all start again back to zero and begin structuring the best solution. I can honestly suggest that both of you take a breather. Lay-low for now, perhaps 3 months for both wounds or ill-feelings to heal. I trust that there are capable editors on the COMIC project who can handle the works you two are both doing or involved with. The wiki addiction has gone beyond much. An amicable "banning" for both parties is something I strongly suggest, good for only 3 months. I know its a bit harsh, considering Ten is my fellow wiki, but I believe this is the best way. It is pointless to continously present evidences. This is not a contest as to who gets the most. †Bloodpack† 06:49, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Work schedule

My work schedule just increased for the next couple of weeks so I'll try and add stuff as and when I can. Apologies. Hiding Talk 18:53, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Delay

Per Hiding's comment above, and Tenebrae's comment on the main page, I would like to suggest/request that this be delayed. (I would not like to see this closed due to inactivity.) As the concerns don't seem to be time sensitive, I hope that putting this temporarily "on hold" would not be problematic. If it is, please let me know before closing. Thank you for your consideration. - jc37 07:15, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Asgardian-Tenebrae

I presented lengthy evidence documenting possible sock puppetry during this case, [9]. Since a check user request has just established Asgardian has edited using an ip address in a manner violation of the arbitration ruling, does this mean new sanctions need to be considered, or should we stick to the prohibitions listed in the case outcome? Hiding T 21:54, 6 January 2008 (UTC) <edited to add link to checkuser request and clarify a point, Hiding T 21:56, 6 January 2008 (UTC)>

Any uninvolved administrator can take action against an editor who sockpuppets to avoid an ArbCom restriction. Reports of infractions should be posted to Wikipedia:Arbitration enforcement. Newyorkbrad (talk) 01:30, 7 January 2008 (UTC)