Talk:Republican Movement (Ireland)

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Articles for deletion This article was nominated for deletion on 16 August 2007. The result of the discussion was No consensus.

[edit] Fianna Fáil

The Republican Party - Fianna Fáil in Ireland has nothing to do with these organisations ? Weggie 14:44, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

The Republican Party is not mentioned anywhere is the article. The Republican Movement comprises the IRA and Sinn Féin, and is in opposition to all "partitionist" parties, including Fianna Fáil. Scolaire 15:18, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Citation needed

I have provided citations for OIRA, CIRA and RIRA as requested. I got them in a hurry from a Google search (and, in one instance, User talk:Conypiece), and I'm sure it's possible to find better. The thing is, I wrote what I wrote to save the article from being deleted. It's not a good article and it needs somebody (not me, at the moment anyway) to make a proper article with proper sourcing. But it's hardly a secret that all republican groups refer to themselves as "The Republican Movement", and to talk of removing this or that organization really does not help to build this article. Scolaire 21:52, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Your sources are not reliable one is to the IRSP website, a group who themselves split from OIRA, the other one from RSF which is a statement on indymedia, they are not un-bias sources.--padraig 21:56, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
They are sources that show that the relevant organization refers/referred to itself as "The Republican Movement". One very persistent editor tried very hard on this article and on Republican Movement to say that CIRA/RSF was the only Republican movement. My current edit is only an attempt to show that the term is employed by, and used for, more than one movement. Scolaire 22:03, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
Your current edit don't show that as you have all them listed as one group, the initial article had then seperated into the different movements.--padraig 22:10, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
Dont think these references meet WP:RS. BigDunc 22:12, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Take the bloody things out, then! Make shit of the article! Excuse me for trying to help! Scolaire 22:27, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Some people think the article is shit to begin with what are you getting in to a strop all I am saying is that I feel the refs are not very reliable I am trying to find some too that can not be questioned. BigDunc 22:31, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
Scolaire, coneypiece is arguing that there is only one Republican Movement consisting of all these groups, this is untrue as they are in seperate groups as this article tried to show before it was put up for deletion.--padraig 22:32, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Irish Republican Movement pre-1986 consisted of:
Irish Republican Army
Sinn Féin
Cumann na hBan
Na Fianna Eireann
various prisoner welfare groups
  • Irish Repubican movement post 1986
Irish Republican Army
Sinn Féin
Na Fianna Eireann
various prisoner welfare groups
Another Movement was formed after the Decision to recognise and take seats in Leinster House, this was called and consisted of:
Continuity Republican Movement
Continuity Irish Republican Army
Republican Sinn Féin
Cumann na hBan
Na Fianna Eireann (Continuity)
  • Irish Repubican movement post 1998
Irish Republican Army
Sinn Féin
Na Fianna Eireann later replaced by revamped Ogra Shinn Féin
various prisoner welfare groups
Another Movement was formed after the Decision by the IRA to continue its ceasefire and endorse the peace process this was called and consisted of:
23 County Sovernity Movement
Real Irish Republican Army
32 County Sovernity Committee - later renamed 32 County Sovernity Movement
Na Fianna Eireann (Real)

On top of this you also have the:

Irish Republican Socialist Movement
Irish National Liberation Army
Irish Republican Socialist Party


None of this groups are connected to each other in any fashion nor is the list of organisation in each group complete.--padraig 22:37, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm still waiting for padraig to prove that they're seperate movements. Anyhow I have requested citations for the remaining groups, PIRA references are needed just as much as CIRA, can't understand why domer48 chose only a few that needed citations. Conypiece 01:22, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Padraig, your hierarchy is fine. Why don't you put it in the article? Then put a tag on the top of the article that says it needs to be sourced, and give people a little space to find the reliable sources. I only put in the "POV" sources because BigDunc said he was going to remove those groups otherwise, and that would make the article incomplete. I personally would prefer to leave it unsourced, but without the silly tags, until somebody has the time to put the work into it. And Coneypiece, of course they're separate movements! Who would want to use five different names at the one time for the one movement? And who would listen to them if they did? Let's stop going on about "proof" and "WP:RS" and try and make an article that says something meaningful. Scolaire 12:28, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

I would agree with putting in what padraig has on this talk page fairly well covers who I belive are part of the republican movement. BigDunc 12:35, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
Great! Scolaire 13:09, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
Erm, not great, what gives SF/IRA sole claim to the Irish Republican Movement? Anyone? Conypiece 22:27, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
Two separate issues, Coneypiece: (1) make sure that all the organizations are dealt with in one article and (2) distinguish between the movements within the article. All of them make equal claim to be the Republican Movement, but if you see "IRA", "Sinn Féin" or "Republican Movement" without a qualification in any national newspaper in 2007, which movement are they referring to? Hence the logic of Padraig's hierarchy. Scolaire 07:27, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
And how do you suggest that we distinguish between the movements within the article? Considering that all the listed organisations see themselves as true irish republicans... Conypiece 09:10, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

(deindent) Well, for a start I suggest that somebody actually writes something substantive. You're just chasing shadows at the moment. If you know something about the organizations in question, write it in the article - that's what editing is - if you don't, leave it alone and hopefully somebody else will. I have said that I think Padraig's hierarchy is a good skeleton to hang the article on: it takes the movement associated with Gerry Adams's Sinn Féin - which as I say is what is always understood when there is a reference to the "Republican Movement" without a qualification in any national paper anywhere in the world in 2007 - as the spine, and the other movements, any of which is generally referred to as a "dissident republican movement", as forks from that. But one way or another, somebody needs to start writing. It's utterly pointless engaging in a long war about an article that essentially doesn't exist at the moment. Scolaire 10:44, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

"The restructuring of the Republican Movement had another inevitable consequence, the removal of the O'Braidgh-O'Connell leadership" History of the IRA Brendan O'Brien. This quote shows that RSF are no longer considered to be part of the Republican Movement. That is two quotes I have given you now Conypiece and you have not provided any to say that the disputed parties are part of the Republican Movement. BigDunc 12:10, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Comment: surely it would be more accurate to refer to PSF/PIRA/OSF as the Provisional Republican Movement. Also, NFE sided with the Continuity branch of the RM after the split.GiollaUidir 14:28, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

There has never been a movement called the provisional Republican Movement, it is not WP role to invent names, NFE split in 1986, Cumann Na Bhan went with RSF/CIRA, but as most female Volunteers were members of the IRA, the role of CnaB was really mainly restricted to the south of Ireland.--padraig 14:35, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
"Provisional Republican Movement" gets 1,990 hits on Google. When you take away hits that are pages on Wikipedia with the term you still get 1770. Hardly a term invented by Wikipedia.GiollaUidir 15:25, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
  • BigDunc, erm thats doesn't say anything about what we are talking about here. Oh and also that cannot be counted as the second for you failed to expand the first. And also them two 'quotes' are out of the same book! Now please if you keep insisting that what you are claiming to be 'fact' then there will be a lot more evidence than two dodgy quotes out of a book!Conypiece 13:43, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
  • GiollaUidir, thats a good point, unfortunately the editing brigade refuse to believe that. Conypiece 13:43, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Padraig, you say there has never been a 'Provisional Republican Movement', do me a favour, explain (and prove) how there is such a thing called the 'Continuity Republican Movement'Conypiece 13:43, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

What that quote tells me is that O'Braidgh was no longer a part of the Republican Movement. Do you not think so? and "two dodgy quotes" from a book by an author who has reported on NI as RTE's senior current affairs reporter since 1974, and has made 3 major documentaries about the IRA. Also won European journalist of the year 1998 and the Amnesty International Award 2001. Can you please ref something and stop your play acting.BigDunc 02:06, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

That quote does not say it meant the removal of Rory Brady from the Movement, but it actually meant it was the removal of his leadership (ie his SF position) of the republican movement. Thats very obvious I would have thought. Anywho, after 2 (1 dodgy, 1 pointless) quotes you have still failed to give me a reliable source that you can link to. Oh and also, two quotes from the one source cannot be counted as two quotes. I have referenced something, 6 things, mainly POV's from the other members of the Republican Movement, you have however the task of disprooving their claims, one which you have failed to do so far. Conypiece 20:37, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
He was out of the Leadership in 1983, thats 3 years before he setup RSF.--padraig 21:00, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
“Gerry Adams, the Sinn Fein president and the pre-eminent figure among the small group that directs the Republican movement…” The Provisional IRA, Patrick Bishop & Eamonn Mallie, Hazell Watson & Viney Ltd, England, 1988, 0552 13337X. --Domer48 21:02, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Padraig, And? I can't actually find anything to do with what you have just said. Now heres an idea, answer the questions which I asked you over two days ago. I'll remind you; Padraig, you say there has never been a 'Provisional Republican Movement', do me a favour, explain (and prove) how there is such a thing called the 'Continuity Republican Movement' Conypiece 21:08, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
What you claimed here That quote does not say it meant the removal of Rory Brady from the Movement, but it actually meant it was the removal of his leadership (ie his SF position) of the republican movement. He was out of the leadership in 1983 within the Republican movement, he didn't leave Sinn Féin as a member of the party until he walked out in 1986 to setup RSF.--padraig 21:21, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
I still fail to see your point here. Above, stick in the word leadership after SF in the bracket. Now doesn't that solve your problem. Oh are you going to answer the question above or will I need to remind you again? Conypiece 21:31, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Domer, I didn't ask for a link stating the general 'leadership' asked for a link (a weblink, theres bound to be one if its a fact!) that actually states RSF, INLA etc are not members of the Republican Movement. Conypiece 21:08, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
You have been given a reference; cite one guideline or policy which states that it has to be internet based. Could I suggest a public library, if you have an aversion to buying book? --Domer48 21:28, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
I have not been gave either a full/accurate reference. It does not need to be a weblink, however it does sort of cast a cloud over your idea though. Ah well, ae you going to provide a link now that categorically states RSF are not part of the Republican Movement? Conypiece 21:43, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
Domer, if you cannot answer just say so... Conypiece 16:48, 7 September 2007 (UTC)