Talk:Republic of Ragusa

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Croatia Portal Republic of Ragusa is part of WikiProject Croatia, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to the nation of Croatia on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit this article or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.

Archives

*Archive 1; till October 4, 2007

[edit] Questions

On the picture displaying the coat of arms I counted 54 of them however under the rubrique of "patrician families" only 25 are listed. Could anyone clarify this discrepancy? Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.243.74.11 (talk) 18:36, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Article name

In the book of Robin Harris "Dubrovnik - A history" (ISBN-13: 978-0863563324), the author uses the name "Dubrovnik". Also, the other toponyms are in Croatian. Similar is with personal names. Kubura 07:41, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

In fact, it uses the name "Dubrovnik" throughout the whole book, not just in the title (I've been able to see the book in the bookshop). Kubura 07:27, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

And why not, because today the name of Dubrovnik is internationally accepted. But in his book Dubrovnik: A History, the British author Robin Harris sets out, in his own words, to create for the first time “a modern, well-sourced and readable account of the history of the Ragusan Republic” (p. 17). see here --DaQuirin 13:13, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

PS: It would be fine to have a break in this fruitless discussion! Please end the naming dispute for a while and try to improve the article (maybe with the help of this interesting, probably balanced book)... --DaQuirin 13:16, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

His book is translated into Croatian also (in 2006). It's titled "Povijest Dubrovnika", ISBN: 953-212-257-5. Kubura 07:16, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Naming dispute is important thing, DaQuirin. Maybe this naming thing sounds and looks like a comical funny nagging of a small eternally unsatisfied balkanic tribe, but all imperialistic attempts/actions started with such things. When you belong to a big nation, you don't see and recognize such things. But when you belong to a small nation, you recognize the sh*t coming.
To make it more "closer" to you, DaQuirin, why don't you try to provoke the French and Belgians with writing the historical articles on en.wiki (concerning their countries) with toponyms in German? Or the Poles. Try to write the article about the "Warschau getto".Kubura 07:27, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

In previous discussions, it was stated again that "Ragusa" is not Italian or Croatian, but Ragusan-Dalmatian. On the other hand, in my opinion the mentioned toponyms (of smaller places, villages) should be transformed to Croatian forms. Maybe some people here could find a compromise here. --DaQuirin

Present territorial claims (are there such Italian claims for Dubrovnik today?) are not under discussion here. You may include this topic into the Dubrovnik article. The dominant use in academic research ("Republic of Ragusa") is undisputed in all major Western countries. --DaQuirin 11:22, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

DaQuirin, have you followed the discussion here? Have you seen the categorization attempts? Giovanni Giove insisted on categorizing this article as "Reppubliche Marinare of Italy", althought this city never belonged to Italy, neither during WWII.
If you don't know, even today, on Italian universities, there're works (available on the Internet), that speak about the "reitalianization of Eastern Adriatic coast". These works are in Italian. At last, neither a year ago, there were few severe diplomatic incidents, because of things said and done by Italian high officials. Veeeery high ones. I'll dig you the links later (with short translations what they've said and done).
"Undisputed dominant use"? Hey, wait! Slow down. You say "it's undisputed and dominant", just like that? How can you say something like that? Look at the archive of this article, in United Nations' material, which dealt with the attempt of Serbo-Montenegrin aggressors, in which they tried to "establish" (puppet) state of Republic of Dubrovnik (indictment against Milošević), that'll be "under their protection"?
In 19th century, international sources (mostly western ones) used term "Ragusa" more often. But, this is not 19th century. Many things have changed since then. As I gave you the example, in contemporary English language, the name "Dubrovnik" is exclusively used, when referring to Dubrovnik. At last, no tourist guide takes you to "Ragusa in Croatia", but to Dubrovnik in Croatia. Kubura 19:22, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

This is not the article about Dubrovnik but the article about a historical state. I don't want to go into our earlier discussion again - with one exception: Your remark concerning the UN document was exactly not referring to the historical Republic of Ragusa/Dubrovnik but to a new political entity that the Serbs wanted to create during the Croatian War. Therefore, the argument is completely misleading (again, we discussed all this before!). You are putting present political arguments into the discussion how to name this article referring to the historical state that ended its existence in 1808 under the self-styled name of "Republic of Ragusa". --DaQuirin 20:54, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Self-styled name? Here's a scanned page from the book from Dubrovnik from 1747. Printed in Venice.
To check catalugue search results, see here [1] (enter the text content into the "author" box, if the "title" box fails to give results).
The book is categorized under: Eshatology, Death (Christianity), Croatian rare books 18th c.
Here, I repeat the things I've wrote previously (15 May 2007) in the section "The name of the country", in the archived page.
Here's the link from HAZU.
It confirms the name of the country in Croatian, as well as that the name of language is Croatian.
"Pokripglenie umiruchi, za dobro i sveto pochi umilosti Boxioi sovoga svita / iztomaçeno, i skupgleno pria po Don Luczi Terzichiu. Koie da boglie, i upraunie izgovara u haruaski iezik; popravi i pristampa po ozcu P. Fra Bernardinu Paulovichiu iz Dubrovaçke Darssave ... Dedicato a sua eccellenza Simon Contarini .... - U Mleczi : Po Bartalu Occhj, 1747." Scan of the first page [2].
The translation is "...in order to better be spoken in Croatian, fixed and reprinted by father fra Bernardin Pavlović from the country of Dubrovnik...".
Few interesting lines from that page are "Jod istoga nadostagliuni mnogi i rasliçiti Blagosovi, i Druge Stuari Svete, i Kriposne za korit Naroda Harvasckoga Kakose moxe viditi nassuarsi isti knigat".
Here's the second edition. [3] and the scan of an internal page [4]. Kubura 06:15, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Here. [5].
"The settlement of Dubrovnik was first mentioned in written records by an anonymous cosmographer of Ravenna in 667. Known in Latin as Ragusium, it was long known by its Italian name, Ragusa, before its Croatian name Dubrovnik (from Dubravka, «forest of oaks») acquired general acceptance. ".
The source is United Nations - Security Council - "Final report of the United Nations Commission of Experts established pursuant to security council resolution 780 (1992), Annex XI.A, The battle of Dubrovnik and the law of armed conflict". Kubura 14:19, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] List of names "After the fall of the Republic"

This part of the list (no citizens of the republic!) should be removed, it belongs instead to the Dubrovnik article. --DaQuirin 11:36, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

• Mato Vodopić (1816-1893) - bishop
• Federico Seismit-Doda (1825-1893), Italian politician
• Luigi Seismit-Doda (1817-1890), soldier, Italian marshall.
• Francesco Ghetaldi-Gondola (Baron Frano Gondola) (1833-1899) - soldier, statesman, nobleman, Knight of Malta
• Medo Pucić (Orsato Pozza) (1821-1882) - writer, politician and nobleman
• Niko Pucić (Nicola Pozza) (1820-1883) - politician and nobleman
• Ivan August Kaznačić(Giovanni Agostino Casnacich) (1817-1883)writer, artist.
• Pero Budmani (1835-1914) - linguist
• Vlaho Bukovac (Biagio Faggioni) (1855-1922) - painter.
• Ivo Vojnović(Conte Iván de Vojnovich) (1857-1929) - writer,nobleman
• Frano Supilo (1870-1917) - politician and journalist
• Blagoje Bersa (Benito Bersa)(1873-1934), musician
• Ottavio Missoni, (1921) fashion designer
• Domenico Stoich (-1853)
• Giorgio Sagrivi

[edit] Requested move

[edit] Sources request for the "Italian language was official" claim

Just because the Ragusian aristocrats spoke both Croatian and Italian, it doesn't make them Italian. Until 1918 the German houses of Baden and Würtemberg only spoke French BUT that doesn 't make the German state Baden Würtemberg a French state. And that's why Ragusa was not an italian state. Italians should therefore stop leering at Ragusa trying to regard it as Italian.

I must respectfully demand that some kind of evidence (RELIABLE source) be brought forth to support the claim that Italian was the official language of the Republic of Ragusa. This keeps up reappearing and I think it's really high time people have a look at the backing behind this statement. DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 18:59, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

So let us check, for example, the book by Robin Harris "Dubrovnik - A history", to get an answer. Does somebody know what actually happened "in 1492"? As for the requested move, I would like to understand your change of opinion, see [6]. So far, we only know that Croatians prefer "Republic of Dubrovnik". --DaQuirin 19:29, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

sigh* yes, I was young and wild then... ;D I did change my mind for a good reason though. It was because of the simple fact I explained in my vote. While the name "Ragusa" was well known within the city, the name "Dubrovnik" was used by the majority of the people, the Slavs (the upper classes were Romance Dalmatians). Therefore, that name should be considered primary, though I do not particularly mind the current situation.

As for the book, I really would like to see it. Is there any link on the net? I doubt I'll find it in shops around here... DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 22:24, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

O.K. (letting me think about the Bandwagon effect...) At least, somebody is interested here and asks questions. So here is the mentioned book: Robin Harris: Dubrovnik. A History, London 2003. ISBN 0-86356-332-5 see also [7]. User Kubura told us that the book is also available in Croatian (in 2006) ("Povijest Dubrovnika", ISBN: 953-212-257-5) DaQuirin

Now for the language question. I checked Engel's very old, but interesting book Geschichte des Freystaates R." (Freistaat = Republic). This very old book was published still during the existence of the Republic (Vienna 1807). It has many references of texts going back centuries ago. It contains above all some original documents. For the language situation, he plainly states: The native language (in the recent period) is "Slavonic" (Croatian), but you can easily get along with Italian. Most Ragusans were bilingual, with Croatian being their mother tongue. Nothing new. And for the 'official language': There is a lot of Latin (Treaties, coins), but the relevant question is here, what did they use in their official State papers, protocols etc. I think, this should be most relevant for your question. It seems that until the end, Italian was (but to what degree?) used in the public documents (but again, the Harris book, making full use of the archives, as it seems, will probably give answers). Very interesting is the documented original report of the Ragusan diplomats about their official mission to Constantinople (1792) Giornale del Viaggo etc.. In an introductory remark, Engel explains how difficult the situation was for the Ragusans, they had to pay the regular tribute to the Sultan, were not treated as equal diplomats etc. This aspect of the Republic's history (no full independence) should be more explained in our article. Also it would be interesting to know more about the Republican institutions (and their 'official names'). Just to make it clear: For our name dispute, the language or ethnic issues are not relevant. But let's wait and see, we will find some arbitration in the end and - why not - manage a compromise. DaQuirin

We still can't really verify the source of this claim. I propose we remove all references to an "official" language until we can get to the bottom of this. I don't like it, but this is a pretty outrageous claim as far as Croats are concerned (the Republic is one of the founders of the Croatian language, so to speak) and it appears to be the only way to prevent hostility on this issue. DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 00:36, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

We can not talk about the presence of Italian language at that time. At that time there was no Italy but Republic of Venice, Republic of Genoa, Kingdom of Naples, Papal State etc. We can say only that there was a presence of Venetian, Toscany or some other Latin-derived language.

Names Italian language and Italians emerged after Risorgimento. Before that nobody from the (what is today ) Italy declared himself as Italian. Neither anybody of named them like that.

For example , Dante always declared himself as Florentin (citizen of Florence ) and his contemporaries called them like that. Whether they were from Rome, Naples , Zagreb , Athens, Paris or Berlin.

--Anto 06:00, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

This is all well known, the claim is that the Venetian language was official. I personally do not consider it possible, but I will accept this if someone can provide me with a (reliable) link where I can verify that Harris clearly states this. Otherwise (or until then) I believe all references to an "official" language (if there even was such a thing) should be removed. DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 08:26, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

I would consider Italian here (like used in the Ambassadors' Report of 1792), Venetian used as vernacular language (or 'dialect'), not in written texts from Dubrovnik (if anybody knows better, please tell us!). The claim that there were no Italians before the Risorgimente is nonsensical. Engel's book (1807) explains, how "Italians" actually were complaining in 16th-18th century period about the multiple (political, whatever) allegiances of the Republic (le sette bandiere di Ragusa = the seven flags of Ragusa"), thereby demonstrating the smart diplomacy of the Republic... DaQuirin 12:11, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Venetian was used as vernacular (mostly by merchants), that's beyond dispute. The question here is where are the cold hard reliable sources here that support the claim that it was "official"? If there are no verifiable references this should not be included. DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 14:21, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Once again, my search was in vain, can anyone present a verifiable link that verifies the Italian language (Venetian dialect) was the "official" language of the Republic of Ragusa?
(I TEMPORARILY removed all such claims in anticipation of confirmation.) DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 23:37, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Why are you coming back again to the "Venetian dialect"? To a certain extent, Standard Italian was used in public documents of the Republic. With foreigners, Ragusans communicated (or had to communicate) in Italian, probably in some dialect form, using Italian or Italian-Venetian as a lingua franca in the region. That's all. It's not that difficult to understand? --DaQuirin 01:14, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Dear DaQuirin, neither Italian neither Venetian Italian were ever lingua franca in Dalmatia. Only small part of Dalmatians were able to speak it and understand it. I've already noticed the same claim in several related articles but it's not objective at all. Only distinguished minority (noble society) used it in some periods and in some occasions and international communication was made mainly by Latin language as elsewhere in half of Europe. Zenanarh 16:47, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

When all educated people (and many ordinary people as well) know a certain second language, we call it a Lingua franca, believe it or not. Ragusans had to communicate with many foreigners, and so they knew Italian, used it in documents etc. etc. Contrary to your blatant nationalism, they were both cosmopolitans and proud of their culture. There is another quote from Engel's book: Ragusans, when confronted with their relation to money, accused of being "deceptive like the Jews or rapacious like the Turks", they would often answer: Non siamo ne Turchi, ne Evrei, ma siamo poveri Ragusani. (We are neither Turks nor Jews, but we are poor Ragusans.) see here --DaQuirin 17:22, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

DaQuirin, there's a difference between an official language and lingua franca. While it is obvious the Ragusan merchants and a part of the upper classes had to speek Italian, they also had to speak Turkish in equal measure (lets also not forget Greek). Will you please stop beating around the bush and bring forth a verifiable (net) source for the "Italian language was official" claim, if you support it, that is. DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 09:55, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Fernand Braudel is his La Méditerranée et le Monde Méditerranéen a l'époque de Philippe II wrote that there were repeated warnings and remindings to speak Italian in official meetings, and uses that to prove that preferred language was not Italian -- if it was, why people should be constantly reminded that they should talk in Italian? Obviously, language of the citizens was not noble enough for the ruling ones.

--Daniel Nikolic (talk) 13:04, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] About the Italianism of Dalmatia

Talking about the Italianism of Dalmatia is equal nonsence as talking about the Italian spirit of Albania or Ethiopia. Or Claiming that Czech lands are German or Slovakia Hungarian territory.

Dalmatia was occupied/colonized (use the word that you prefer) by Venetian republic . And Italy has no right for the inheritage of Dalmatia. As well as Spain has no right on the inheritage of Mexico , Uruguay , Argentina. or Portugual on Brazilian.Aradic-en --Anto 06:19, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Well, the beautiful architecture of Prague that draws tourists was built at the time when most citizens of Prague were German. Spain has "only" language and colonial architecture in Latin America. Isn't that what heritage is? 99.229.96.231 08:29, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Could you help by providing sources concerning what language was official in the Republic? That's what is discussed at the moment (see the article). DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 08:33, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

I will try but you have entire paragraph for it! :) --Anto 12:29, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

(never mind the article, its a huge mess) We need reliable sources about the official language of the Republic in the period after 1492. DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 13:22, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Dubrovnik was cosmopolitan city settled by Croats who were using all languages of the known world at that moment, but in the senate it was Ragusan, later Croatian too I think but I'm not sure. I'm sure it was not Italian, why would it be? Using of Italian was much more a kind of fashion because of Italian reinnesance influence on all Europe, but it was far away from official. A reliable source is travelling to me by post next days, I'm hardly waiting. Zenanarh 23:47, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Congradz, Zen. Maybe you can finally end this matter. DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 00:51, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

I wrote this before, see the archive.
It was the case around the Europe, where the feudal lords and higher classes spoke other language, to distinguish themselves from the lower classes.
E.g., in Italy, see the case in ...Piedmont, if I remember well. There, their intellectuals spoke French, as opposing to lower classes that spoke Italian. Kubura (talk) 10:38, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Dubrovnik should be called Ragusa

Oh please...the only official name for Switzerland is "Confoederatio Helvetica" just as the only official name for Dubrovnik was "Res Publica Ragusina". And yet Dubrovnik remains Dubrovnik just as Switzerland is Switzerland or Svizzera or Suisse or Scheiz or Schwyz or whatever... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.243.74.11 (talk) 17:32, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

What are you people talking about?? You all know nothing about Dubrovnik, Ragusa, it's history and present! You are discussing about changing the name of the article into "Republic of Dubrovnik" which is absolutly incorrect! Before the 1806., when the army of France penetrated into the wals of Dubrovnik, the city was called Dubrovnik only by the Slavs who lived outside the borders of the Republic. But the people who lived in the city called it Ragusa. The official name of the state was RES PUBLICA RAGUSINA and if you want to change that, you want to change history and that can not be done. In fact, article in croatian wikipedia about this subject is wrong and should be changed into "Republika Ragusa". I am telling all this as a historian and the citizen of Dubrovnik!

And you are... Zenanarh 17:05, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

As a native of Dubrovnik I doubt you are one too. --Raguseo 15:58, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

ma ne seri —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.172.44.240 (talk) 17:55, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Giovanni Giove 08:46, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Language ?

The discussions in the article about the language and literature are inconsistent and misleading.

quote 1: "the modern Croatian language was standardized on the base of the Shtokavian dialect"

So was Serbian, so what was the point?

quote 2: "The Ragusan literature in which Latin, Italian and Croatian languages coexisted blossomed in the 15th and 16th century"

Can that language at that time be called Croatian ?

quote 3: "a part of the Illyric literature ... written before the development of the Croatian standard language"

Judging by this quote, the standard Croatian language isn't developed yet.

quote 4: "The Ragusan works were written by the same people or writing circles, which wrote indifferently in Italian and Slavic (Croatian)."

Slavic interchangeable with Croatian? This is perverting the facts.

The unbiased solution would be to call the language: "the (South) Slavic language of Dubrovnik", or "the Slavic dialect of Dubrovnik", or "Shtokavian dialect"

I agree with you, but Croatian users do not agree, and somebody think that these claims are offensive. BTW Shotkavian, even today, is spoken in Serbia and Bosnia, why do not call it "Serbocratian". Or, if this last is "offensive", "Southslavic" Giovanni Giove 08:42, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

99.229.96.231 08:20, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Why don't you read the archive of this talkpage? See the sections "title" [8], "Slavic language" [9], "For those who doubt about Croathood of Dubrovnik" [10], "Illyrian language" [11], "Croathood of Dubrovnik and translations" [12], "Croats' dialects in old Dubrovnik Republic" [13], "The name of the country" [14]. Dear users, you don't have to reply on the message of every troll that appears (or the troll that plays dumb and pulls newcomers by the nose, thinking that when the talkpage is archived, that the unwanted evidence is removed). If somebody messes with this topic, it should read the discussion. We don't have to explain to every passer-by that the fire and the wheel were discovered/invented long long ago. Kubura 15:02, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

First of all, take it easy! I hope your not one of those Serbian nationalists...

Re quote 1: There is no "point", its a statement of fact. It should be clarified, though. Serbian does not draw its roots from Dubrovnik, Croatian does (Gundulić, Držić, etc...).

This is a doubtful fact. First modern Serbian dictionary from 1852. included words noted in Dubrovnik. See also: Ivo Vojnović.

Re quote 2: Yes it can, Ivan Gundulić, Džore and Marin Držić, for example, are considered early Croatian writers.

Yes.... by the modern Croats. But they did not regarded them self as "Croats", nor called the dialect "Croat". Last by not least, they were all bilingual (Italian and Slavic), so I wonder why theu should be reagarded just as "Croats. Acctualy they were Ragusans (a mixed city!)

No, by the whole World (i.e. modern-day historiography). The fact that they did not consider themselves Croatian does not mean much to historians. Example: people from the Kingdom of Wessex did not consider themselves English, but they are considered such by scientists.

You must tell me, are you inventing a brand new nationality here or are you just saying Ragusan citizens are really Serbs? DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 18:30, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

There is little or no validity in the claim that Ragusans are Serbs. But, what is validity of claiming they were Croats? The consequential fact that this city ended up in Croatia, or the fact that Ragusians and Croats are catholic, or the fact that Croatian literature embraced the heritage of Ragusian literature? Ragusa was an aristocratic city state which combined italian and slavic influences (apparently, early Dalmatian and Roman influence as well). It is justifiable to say that the heritage of Venice is Italian (no other claimants exist), but this is not the case with Dubrovnik. BTW, what is the nationality of the Swiss? German? French? 99.229.96.231

Ragusa is as Croatian as Venice is Italian, one might say. In any case, we are not discussing what might have happened. A Mongol fleet could have captured the city and turned it into a Mongol town, for all we know. What matters is that modern historiography allocates the Southern Slavs living in Dubrovnik back then as Croats, thats all there is to it. DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 21:45, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Re quote 3: You need to differentiate between the existance and standardization of a language. Just because Croatian was not standardised until the 19th century by no means is to suggest that it did not exist before the 19th century.

Re quote 4: This quote clearly does not mean that Croatian is "interchangeable" with Slavic, it means Croatian is a Slavic language (as opposed to Italian, Turkish, Albanian, Greek, etc...)

DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 08:37, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Some people here are trying to discuss and make general conclusions from half facts and their total ignorance concerning agenda.

Re quote 1: Chakavian, Kaikavian, Ikavian, Stokavian are generalized dialects Of South Slavic languages. However there are differencies inside each of it, so there's situation that Stokavian is found in three modern standardized languages: Croatian, Serbian, Macedonian. For better understanding it's not easy for a Croat to understand all said by a Macedonian, while Croatian and Serbian are much closer but still there are differencies in grammatics and a lot of words. Kaikavian, Chakavian and Ikavian are older dialects in the Western Balkans and historical Croatian dialects, at present still in massive regional use in Croatia (Kaikavian in Zagreb and northern Croatia; Chakavian and Ikavian in Dalmatia, Istria; Ikavian in Herzegovina, Slavonia). Also there are slight differencies among Stokavian speakers from the different regions in Croatia, Dubrovnik dialect, Herzegovinian, Slavonian, Lika... It's impossible to connect some of these dialects to specific ethnic group since ethnic differentiation was made by languages. Dialects are crossing. Croatian and Serbian standardized languages share the same "dialect" - Stokavian, in the same time Stokavian, Chakavian, Ikavian, Kaikavian Croatian use the same "word pool" different from Serbian and Macedonian Stokavian word pool. Different dictionaries make different languages like everywhere else: Italian, French, German, English...

Macedonian is a language from a similar, but different language group (And you criticized using half-facts and ignorance!?). Word pool is one of the least important factors in language differentiation (it is the most unstable language component). Most of the explanation is still OK.

Re quote 2: Can that language at that time be called Croatian ? Can Italian from 15th, 16th can be called Italian? What was called French language spoken in France in 15th century? Maybe people didn't speak 500 years ago!

Croato-serbian/Serbo-croatian, if you wish.

C-S/S-C was "discovered" during communistic pan-Slavistic Yugoslav years and actually it made Croatian and Serbian languages somewhat closer than before. In Bosnia it was admixture of Croats, Serbs and Muslims and question what is spoken there. C-S/S-C was the answer and the easiest resolution. Zenanarh 17:20, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Re quote 3: The most of European languages were standardized in 18th and 19th century.

Re quote 4: "Slavic", "Croatian" and "Illyrian" were Medieval synonims of the same language spoken by Croats, after 19th century it's officialy Croatian language. Zenanarh 16:20, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

First, all those terms were not medieval. "Slavic" was first, and it is the only term used by the people of Dubrovnik in its Golden Age. "Slavic language" has 3+ very similar children. 99.229.96.231

Medieval Croatian authors were using all 3 names, Illyrian was used by some authors in 15th, 16th, 17th century, don't misinterpret it with Illyrian national movement in 19th century Croatia. Zenanarh 17:28, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

It doesn't matter. I personally believe we all pretty much speak the same language but use different dialects. The fact of the matter is that, for whatever reason, the South Slavs from Dubrovnik are considered Croatian. Are you inventing a new nationality here? DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 21:45, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

"modern historiography" - I pretty much know what history books in Croatia say, but I doubt books in Italy and Serbia say the same. And I can strongly argue on behalf of all three of them!

Example 1: Ragusians were Italians by personal choice, if not by ethnicity.

Example 2: Ragusa is very distant (in most senses) from historic Croatia. Their later association is a product of common religion and similar language.

Example 3: Current citizens of Dubrovnik consider themselves Croats.

99.229.96.231 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.201.5.100 (talk) 22:12, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Re ex.1: Not correct! Ragusans didn't recognized themselves as Italians at all! Or nothing similar.

Re ex.2: depending what is historic Croatia for you... Zenanarh 17:35, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Here's the thing - Croatia was a specific country with specific boundaries at the time the Republic of Ragusa existed. Those boundaries did not include any of Dalmatia, and certainly not Dubrovnik. It seems highly problematic to refer to its inhabitants as "Croatian" before the 19th century. john k (talk) 06:10, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Croatia as a country originated in Dalmatia, also during existance of Dubrovnik Republic, Croatia was changing its territory several times and did include Dalmatia or almost the best part of it. Zenanarh (talk) 07:51, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Dubrovnik and "distant" historic Croatia

Here's the reference [15] and [16] Pavao Krmpotić: Kazneni postupak prema srednjovjekovnom statutarnom pravu Dubrovačke Republike, Pravnik, 40, 2 (83), 2006, p. 89. (Criminal procedure according to the statutary Law of Republic of Dubrovnik):
Venice has concquered Dubrovnik in 1205. With the Peace Treaty from Zadar from 1358, the rule of Venice over Dubrovnik ended. Until 1526, Dubrovnik recognised the King of Croatia and Hungary as the sovereign (dinasties: Angevins, Luxemburg, Habsburg, Hunyadi, Jagiellon).
There you have "far away" country of Croatia. However, if you look those sections (archived) I suggest you to read, you'll see the texts in which the Dubrovnikan authors from that very century explicitly speak about Croatian language in Croatian language in their works (e.g., Dominko Zlatarić, 1597). Kubura (talk) 13:56, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Comment by anonymous

One just needs to go into the Sponza Palace, the Ragusian state archive in Dubrovnik and see any of the official documents. The laws regarding inner policy are clearly stated in Croatian: Those regarding foreign policy are written both in Croatian and Italian. All of the ruling families of Ragusa from Sorkocevic to Gucetic to Restic etc were Croatian. The greatest Ragusian poet and writer Ivan Gundulic, an aristocrat and one of the rulers, famous for his book "Suze sina razmetnoga", was one of the greatest Croatian nationalists. Source: "Dubrovnik, a history", written by Robin Harris 2006.

Just because the official name of the republic was Ragusa it doesn't mean that it was Italian. Ragusan despised and hated all Italian republics. Ragusa with it's fleet capacity of 700.000 tons surpassed Venice in 1660 and was the main rival of Venice in the Adriatic. The last Venitian rector was sent home packing in 1358. According to the Harris book he packed in a hurry. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.243.74.11 (talk) 21:31, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Just because the Ragusian aristocrats spoke both Croatian and Italian, it doesn't make them Italian. Until 1918 the German houses of Baden and Würtemberg only spoke French BUT that doesn 't make the German state Baden Würtemberg a French state. And that's why Ragusa was not an italian state. Italians should therefore stop leering at Ragusa trying to regard it as Italian. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.243.74.11 (talk) 21:40, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

What are you talking about? Whoever said that Ragusa was Italian? Maarten (talk) 21:52, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Deal

Deal between Dubrovnik and Dušan of Serbia has been finished only after Stjepan II (in dokument master of Hum land) of Bosnia has confirmed agreement. Serbia (Dušan) has recieved 8000 perpera for Rat Stonski, Posrećnicu in Neretva (?) and Prevlaka + every year gifts of 500 perpera. Rjecina (talk) 02:47, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

On other side for confirmation of deal Bosnia (Stjepan II) will recieve every year gifts of 500 perpera until end of time (words from document). --Rjecina (talk) 02:52, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Doge/Knez

"Duke of Ragusa" is a good translation of course, though Doge is used in English sources, maybe to make a difference with the new title of "Duke of Ragusa" created by Napoleon for Auguste de Marmont --DaQuirin (talk) 14:08, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, though some may argue that Knez is the proper term, I think Duke (or Prince, maybe?) is a good compromise. --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 19:35, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Knez is not known in English, whereas Doge is properly used in historical sources, be it Italian or not. You were really improving the article, but then ... again this nationalistic Balkan crap (sorry, it's not personal, but this is what it looks like to Non-Croatians and Non-Italians). --DaQuirin (talk) 19:53, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

If Doge hurts the Croatian soul, "Rector of Ragusa" seems o.k. "Duke of Ragusa" is misleading, as I said, because it was used later with a different meaning. --DaQuirin (talk) 19:59, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

"Hurts the Croatian sole",?!! I resent the implication that I'm another irrational nationalist (I don't even believe in "souls" ;). I was merely acting logically. "Doge" is an Italian term, whereas it would be more appropriate to equate it with an English title (since we are not dealing with Venice). I agree that "Duke" may be misleading, however, so I'd like to propose we use the term "Prince". After all, the ruler of Ragusa did not consider himself a "Duke", no matter what language we translate the title to ("Knez" translates to "Prince"). --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 20:44, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Why not Doga? :) Duke, doge and knez were the same titles in Marmont's age, in different languages. Zenanarh (talk) 22:18, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Marmont was Duc de Raguse, the only one ever probably, now look at this odd category: Category:Dukes of Raguse --DaQuirin (talk) 02:10, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Not precisely. We are dealing with two different titles in three languages here:

English: Duke, Prince

Italian (Venetian): Doge, Principe

Croatian: Vojvoda, Knez

In Venice, the title of Duke was the ruling title, and we can therefore safely translate the title of the Venetian Doge to "Duke". In Dubrovnik, however, the title "Duke" is incorrect and misleading (as DaQuirin pointed out) and we cannot use it in any language whatsoever (no matter how frequently "Doge" is used). The correct title in English would therefore be "Prince" (a ruler in general), with the added benefit of the middle-ground between the two points of view (Knez and Doge). (In Croatian the word "Princ" is used for a royal heir, but not in the context of a ruler in general.) --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 22:45, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

In the end, it's not up to us to find the proper translation. Maybe someone can check the Harris book. Is "Rector" not fitting? I don't think "prince" is appropriate for a republic. --DaQuirin (talk) 14:10, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

No I don't think Rector can be used here, "Rector" was a different function. Wasn't the Venetian overseer known as a Rector? (When I say "we", I mean people in general.) --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 14:16, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

O.K. It is not an urgent problem. If someone can check the English-speaking history books, we will then find the proper term. --DaQuirin (talk) 14:24, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Prince can be used for medieval merchant republics, the Medicis for example were Princes of Florence, weren't they? --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 15:17, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

I am not sure. "Prince" was only used when the Republican institutions were not working normally. Again, let us wait until we can check some translated sources. In the Doge article it is stated: "The title of Doge was used for the elected chief of state in a number of Italian 'crowned republics'. The two best known such republics were Venice and Genoa..." What would be interesting to know: Didn't the Ragusans create their constitution and the Latin names of the institutions under the influence of the model maritime republic (and their arch enemy of course) Venice? So finally, under the impact of our interesting discussion here, later this year, I will do some book research myself, starting with Harris maybe. Greetings to all of you, interested in the history of the splendid city of Dubrovnik! --02:26, 18 March 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by DaQuirin (talk • contribs)

The historical title used in Ragusa was 'Doge', and if don't like there is nothing we can do. The title of Duke was different and unelected. Don't change history with nationalism ;)

[edit] Dobrons, Dubrons...

In the article "Dubrovnik" I found the under the subtitle "Name" the mention of a Slavic tribe Dubroni or Dobroni. I've been searching for any information related to that tribe, a book or sth. I've found a form of their name in about 50 (!) settlements scattered throughout the Slavic lands but I can't find anything written by an expert. Can anyone help me? (maybe the person who wrote about them in the article) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ragusinus (talk • contribs) 23:17, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Serbs of Dubrovnik

In the later 19th century 15 of 36 Dubrovnik deputies were of the Serb Party.

The 1953 Yugoslavian population census showed 8,813 Serbs and 4,709 Montenegrins in Dubrovnik's municipality. These together formed a huge part of Dubrovnik's population and most were Roman Catholic Christians. Anti-Note (talk) 18:45, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Anti-Note, we're talking about the times of Republic of Dubrovnik, not the times after. Stick to the topic.
Now, to deputies.
These elections in Dubrovnik were boycotted by Croat parties, and then Serb party got that unreal share of deputies.
Seeing the consequences of their internal fight, Croat parties in Dubrovnik had settled things amoung themselves, and on the very next elections, that very big success of Serb party faded.
YU census from 1953 showed... blah, blah, and they were Christians. You say that just like that.
Also, that political movement of "Serb Catholics" was financed from Serbia. Interesting, when Yugoslavia came to life in 1918 (under name Kingdom of SHS), that "enthusiasm for Serbhood in Dubrovnik" has vanished.
Now, to census.
I can also say that YU census from 1953 showed that there were 10,000 Clingons living in Dubrovnik, and they were of Bayoran religion.
Now, the warning again. Stick to the topic, don't go off-topic. You came here with other intentions. The topic is the Republic of Dubrovnik. Kubura (talk) 06:18, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

The political movement of Dalmatian Croats was financed from Croatia. Both sides tried to get as much as they can, just like Serbia and Bulgaria strugled on the other side. Akinful cultures are destined for those places of intercultures [all one people in truth].

No it didn't vanish. As we see, it went on and on and on. At first you made me think it disapeared in 1929 when it became Catholic=Croat and Orthodox=Serb, but that is obviously not the case, as it maintained even through the Ustashas and into Communists. The Ustashis rein is actualy the best pruf of their streangth. Thrugh Communism they very slowly died out and were asimilated into Croats. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Anti-Note (talk • contribs) 23:43, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

I believe the Klingons were of Ferengi origin, Kubura. Do not discuss matters you don't know anything about ;) --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 07:27, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Wait, wait... Klingons or Clingons? Zenanarh (talk) 08:54, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Clearly Kubura is not knowledgeable in this line of conversation, the proper term is obviously Klingons. --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 09:29, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Historical name

the historical name of the ancient Republic of Ragusa was 'Respublica Ragusina' and not Republic of Dubrovnik, that name was not used in the middle ages, even by the Ragusan people.

I'm sure you know The Truth, but the fact remains that as the city was known by its majority Slavic noblemen and commoners as "Dubrovnik". --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 08:09, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

It doesn't matter how it was called in the medieval age (or later) by its inhabitants. Here it's about the general use in English-speaking history books. The name "Republic of Ragusa" is still the widely used name for all the known reasons. In touristical guides and some modern books you will also find "Republic of Dubrovnik" (mostly by Croatian authors, but not only). --DaQuirin (talk) 13:33, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Ok, if you recall I voted against the move to "Republic of Dubrovnik". But the Republic of Dubrovnik should stay at least in brackets as the second name. We should not be completely inflexible. --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 05:16, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes, of course. --DaQuirin (talk) 22:59, 4 May 2008 (UTC)