Talk:Republic of Ireland-United Kingdom border

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[edit] Title

The title of the article should not begin with "The" (not Wikipedia convention). And the border is a British frontier as much as an Irish one, the title of the article should reflect this. JAJ 00:49, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Until recently the article was named "The British-Irish border" and was moved to its present title by user:NotMuchToSay with the summary "The term "British-Irish border" is not really used. The "Irish Border" is the correct term, as it is a border within the island of Ireland, seperating NI from ROI.".
I agree that the article title should not start with "The". I would suggest an alternative title of "Republic of Ireland-United Kingdom border" or "Republic of Ireland-Northern Ireland border". To save work sorting out redirects I wont move it to either title until we get agreement. Thryduulf 23:04, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
Republic of Ireland-United Kingdom border would reflect the fact there are two sovereign states involved. JAJ 02:34, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
I agree. I'll be bold and move the page to that title and set-up some redirects. Thryduulf 12:41, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Merge

When setting up some redirects to the new page name (see above), I discovered that an article called Irish border already exists. I've put the tags on both articles to suggest that Irish border be merged into here (Republic of Ireland-United Kingdom border). If there are no objections this can be done in about a week. Thryduulf 12:51, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

There is a precedent to use the name of the two states in the title, eg Canada-United States border. The term "Irish border" is non-specific and to an outsider does not obviously refer to the international frontier. JAJ 14:56, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
Now done. JAJ 02:17, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Passport Controls

It's not quite correct to say that these have never been in operation on the Border, as this was the case under the Stormont regime (NI government until 1972). I have corrected this as well as tidying and tightenening-up the text. I've also used an uppercase "B" to refer to the Border, as is the common practice in Ireland. Regards, bigpad 21:25, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Can you provide a reference for passport controls in the Stormont era? I would not have thought that a devolved government would have authority over border controls. JAJ 18:54, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
Hi, I'll get back to you on this but am fairly sure I'm on good ground with it. Thanks, bigpad 21:28, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
Northern Ireland did impose de-facto immigration control in 1947 Safeguarding of Employment (Northern Ireland) Act 1947 however this is similar to the immigration controls imposed today by the Isle of Man and Channel Islands. It doesn't seem to have had any impact on border controls and it's not clear whether it was ever challenged as ultra vires with respect to the constitutional authority of Stormont as per the Government of Ireland Act 1920. JAJ 05:44, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
During the Emergency/World War 2, controls were in place and identity cards of some form (issued by the British authorities - I think) were required for travel from the Free State to any part of the UK, including Northern Ireland. This was quite inconvenient for places such as the village of Pettigo which spans the border where people had been used to a liberal travel regime. Signor Eclectic 23:55, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
I have checked up on this from a colleague who specialises in borders and employment. Here's a summary of what she said. In 1942, it was agreed (presumably by Stormont and Whitehall) that the scale of “infiltration” from the Free State (to take up wartime work in NI) had become high enough to be a security risk. Stricter regulations were devised, including deportation, to cover all British subjects (under British law, still including Irish nationals) who were not ordinarily resident in Northern Ireland on 1 January 1940. In 1945, with large-scale building lay-offs inevitable and the return of armed services personnel imminent, Stormont asked the Home Office to relinquish power to the Northern Ireland Government to exercise Border controls.
The initial Home Office response was that, while it would “welcome being relieved of responsibility”, allowing the devolved government the power to “ring-fence” Northern Ireland was inconsistent with the Government of Ireland Act under which the UK government retained responsibility for immigration.
In November 1946, Westminster was asked again for powers to control entry to Northern Ireland, for the purposes of residence and employment. This was allowed and, in 1947, the Safeguarding of Employment (Northern Ireland) Act was passed by Stormont. It restricted any employment and apprenticeship to persons born or ordinarily resident in Northern Ireland unless non-Northern Irish people were authorized to be employed by a permit for a specified post with a specified employer in a specific place. This act became a minor issue during negotiations for membership of the then EEC. Although phased out in practice, the act was not formally repealed until 1981 bigpad 08:29, 8 June 2006 (UTC).

[edit] "Inconspicuous" Border

If you come to Ireland and visit the Border, you will have a hard job spotting it!! I should know what I'm talking about, as I don't live that far from it and cross it quite often. I was also involved in a recent university research project on the Irish Border (see article). For these reasons, and for the fact that I am not saying that it is the 'only' inconspicuous border in Europe, I have reverted the "citation needed" edit bigpad 18:16, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

There are basically no borders between France and Belgium, Belgium and the Netherlands, Netherlands and Germany to name a few, so to say it is one of the most inconspicous and open borders is a false claim. Tim! 18:24, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
To come into this as a neutral. The border between the UK and ROI is totally inconspicuous. The fact that others are as well does not negate the fact that it is one of the most inconspicous and open borders etc etc etc. The claim is not that it is THE most inconspicuous, but ONE OF the most inconspicuous. I fail to see how this can be disputed. Fork me 15:36, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
So the Pacific ocean should be described as one of the wettest oceans, as there are none which are wetter? It's a totally pointless claim. Tim! 16:04, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, Tim, but that is a totally crass and pointless reply. There is no comparison between what we are discussing here and wetness of Oceans (although as a chemist, I would dispute youruse of the word "wet", Oceans do have different levels of wetness and indeed, there are many liquids wetter than water, however, I digress). The vast majority of borders in the World are obvious, a few are inconspicuous, the Irish border IS one of the most inconspicuous in the World, the majority of the rest that fit into this category also happen to be in europe, for the reasons you haver given. However, that does not in any way alter the FACT that the Irish border is ONE of the most inconspicuous etc etc etc Fork me 14:24, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
Most borders in Western Europe are fairly inconspicuous by the standards of the rest of the world. The Irish border is no more and no less conspicuous than those between France/Germany, Germany/Netherlands etc so saying it's one of the most inconspicuous in Europe is fairly meaningless. Perhaps a more neutral way of putting the issue across would be to say something like "In common with many borders in Western Europe, it is relatively inconspicuous by world standards" ??? JAJ 16:18, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
Seems like a fairly sensible compromise to me. Fork me 17:12, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Hi All, thanks for the comments. IMHO, the Irish Border is much more "open" than that between Germany and Holland but I am happy enough to have updated the article as "is a very inconspicuous and open Border" without further qualification bigpad 09:13, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps coming a bit late to the discussion, but the Irish border is less conspicuous than the European borders mentions, which are at least marked at most major crossings.--Breadandcheese 10:22, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Use of the term "Ireland" for "Republic of Ireland"

In an article of this nature, using the term of "Ireland" instead of the "Republic of Ireland" is confusing and not NPOV. JAJ 18:07, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Confusing, perhaps, but certainly not failing NPOV. The name of the state in the south of Ireland is unambiguously and without qualification "Ireland". The "Republic of Ireland" is simply a descriptive term. --Breadandcheese 07:46, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Citations

There are no inline citations in this article. --Mal 12:06, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] crossing the border

the section on crossing the border is not written clearly. is a passport or id required to cross from the republic to the uk or not? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.139.60.32 (talk) 17:37, 13 May 2007 (UTC).

A passport is not required (as long as one is an Irish or UK citizen) ID isint required either although it may be advisable to have some anyway to avoid any inconvenience for the (nowadays fairly rare) occasions when one might be stopped and questioned. Personally Ive crossed the border hundreds of times (Nowadays its very rare to even see Police or army at the border) and only been asked for ID twice -Once in NI and once in the Republic. On both occasions I wasnt actually AT the border but maybe 4 or 5 miles from it. Most times they just wave you through. There was a clampdown a few years back by the Irish immigration authorities where busses were quite frequently boarded and ID demanded from individuals of Non Northwest-European appearance however the bad publicity which resulted forced them into taking a less blatently racist approach. (one black guy they stopped turned out not only to be an Irish citizen but actually told off the officer in Gaelic) 80.229.222.48 10:15, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
So this blows away the "In recent times (since the early 90s) such controls have not been in operation on the border." line in the main article, then? The last time I saw the patrols was about mid-2005, but then I normally take the 8:00 Belfast-Dublin train. But I understand the Garda still maintains an Immigration unit out of Dundalk Garda station? The patrols tend to be on the N1 on a layby south of the Ravensdale Inn, or they would do a walkthrough of the train at Dundalk station. Even when the patrols were on the N1, I've never been stopped while driving, only when they did a walkthrough on a bus. And I'm not of Non Northwest-European appearance, but a driver's licence with a Belfast address helps, I suppose. -Kain 01:23, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Houses bisected by the border

As well as the towns, farms (Including that of the infamous Slab Murphy) and even petrol stations bisected by the border there have been anecdotal stories (can anyone confirm them or provide citations) of the border passing through peoples houses and how they can choose which side they get their water, electricity, landline telephone etc from.

Would such households need to pay domestic rates for the "Northern" part of their property and how would television licencing work (move the TV into the kitchen when the inspector knocks on the door ??). Which country would they be "resident" in for taxation and electoral purposes ? 80.229.222.48 10:40, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Border traffic and trivia

Someone reckons "Content in this section should be integrated into the body of the article or removed" But I beg to differ and wonder what others think. It may be "trivia" but its still quite interesting, contains a lot of useful titbits of information and lends a lot to the article. Maybe a better idea would be to come up with a better title for the section. Any takers ? 80.229.222.48 10:49, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

How is it interesting? "UK postboxes are red, the Republic's are green ..." "Mobile phones often alert the user with a beep when the Border has been crossed ..." "Subtle differences in road surface arising from differing technical standards ..." "The road numbering systems are different." "Place-name signage in the Republic is bilingual (Gaelic and English), whereas UK place-name signage is (usually) English only with subtle differences in colouring and fonts."
Did the person(s) who wrote this section never cross any other border in Europe? The summation of the "trivia" appears to be "blink and you'll miss it." Simply not notable.
There are also factual errors regarding the Vienna Convention on Road Signs and Signals. Both the Republic's and the UK road sign system predate the Convention - the UK's system is from 1964 and the Republic's is from 1956 - however, both are broadly in keeping with the Convention. --sony-youthpléigh 11:27, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
It is interesting to anyone who happens to find themselves in that part of the world and wants to know which country they are in. Of course there will be some people who dont find this interesting but the best advice one can give them is go and read another article ! As for road signs how can BOTH countries road signs be "in keeping with the Convention" when there are so many differences between them ? 80.229.222.48 12:50, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
Both countries can be in keeping with the Convention because the Convention allows for variance in colour and shape for the same class of road sign. The article says that the warning signs in the Republic are not in keeping with the Convention because they use diamond-shaped signs with yellow backgrounds, black borders and black symbols, whereas the UK uses equilateral triangles, with white backgrounds, red borders and black symbols for the same class of sign. In fact, the convention explicitly allows for both variants. See the article.
"It is interesting to anyone who happens to find themselves in that part of the world and wants to know which country they are in." On what occasion do you surmise that this might happen? This is not the Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy. Take that kind of stuff to H2G2, not here. Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information, and the "trivia" section is just that. Crossing the RoI-UK border is no different to crossing any other internal EU border. --sony-youthpléigh 13:32, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
I made a big edit, but kept most of the information - by judgements were based on "could a person reading this be able to tell when they cross and what side they are on?" --sony-youthpléigh 10:13, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Border settlements

One user is objecting to the inclusion of 'County Londonderry' after the entry for 'Derry' in the section on border settlements. His post on my talk page and my response are copied below:

Please stop adding the term County Londonderry after the listing of the city of Derry, like Belfast, Manchester, Glasgow, Birmingham etc the count of a city is very listed after the city name in articles. Not only that you are adding oxygen to fire that is the Derry/Londonderry naming dispute. Currently there is little/no argument over this issue amongest established editors please edit within the consensus or establish a new one.--Vintagekits 09:32, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
None of Belfast, Manchester, Glasgow, or Birmingham are border towns. As with all other settlements listed in that section of the article, Derry has always had its county listed - you seem to be the only objector. As regards the Derry/Londonderry naming dispute, the WP:IMOS is quite clear - Derry for the city, Londonderry for the county. Regards, BastunBaStun not BaTsun 10:39, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

I really don't see what the issue is here. I'm going to restore the name and we can see what other editors think. This is the proper place to discuss it, not an editor's talk page. BastunBaStun not BaTsun 10:43, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

It sounds to me like a needless repetition. If it were not for the Wiki convention, it would be like listing the name as "Derry, Co. Derry" or "Londonderry, Co. Londonderry". (Would anyone write, Cork, Co. Cork, Dublin, Co. Dublin, Galway, Co. Galway, Kilkenny, Co. Kilkenny, etc. etc.?) Mixing the two sounds even stranger - especially for anyone aware of the issue, so I tend to agree with Vintage on this one: it looks like the county is only added because of the Wiki convention and so does fan the flames.
I'd propose a Wikipedia:Ignore all rules to get around this one. On this article, and this article alone, let's write Derry/Londonderry. We might as well limit our dirty laundry to being only aired in public, rather than washing it in public altogether. --sony-youthpléigh 11:17, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
I agree with Bastun that controversial changes should be discussed here first.
I agree with Dr Sony that it might be logical to WP:IAR for this article alone but, unfortunately, this will inevitably lead to edit wars. The WP:MOS-IR helps to defuse these battles by providing clear guidance which Bastun has followed. Let us take refuge in "the roolz" for once! VK/Domer48 likes to establish and follow the "roolz" with regard to capitalisation so I hope he will understand the position here and not regard it as provocative - merely consistent...Gaimhreadhan (kiwiexile at DMOZ) talk • 14:30, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
If he want to do a list of Counties that are border counties then by all means add Co. Londonderry but when we discuss Derry as the city we never add the county after it. There is also no need to add "Derry/Londonderry" as that will just open a can of worms as other will start crying out for County Londonderry/Derry in all articles. There is an argeement on how we display the county and city of Londonderry/Derry - no one likes it, I dont like it BUT it works and stops these sorts of arguements - infact I am pretty p'ed off that Bastun is causing this argument here especially as there a long standing agreement on this issue.--Vintagekits 15:07, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
Agree there is no need to refer to Derry as Derry/Londonderry. As for the rest of it - eh? This article has long listed all the settlements near the border, along with the county they are in. That includes Derry. Vk keeps referring to an agreement and/or MoS (here, and on my talk page, where he brought this first) never to list Derry with its county - I can find nothing regarding this (in relation to Derry or any other town or city) on the WP:IMOS or WP:NC:CITY), and despite a request, Vk has yet to produce a link to same. BastunBaStun not BaTsun 15:21, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Distance convention in UK/Ireland

Are we using metric or imperial (diff). I had assumed that WP always used metric. The Canada–United States border uses metric (e.g. it is "8,891 kilometres (5,522 mi) long"). Are we not? --sony-youthpléigh 09:02, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

In the same way that articles of British or Irish interest use "British English", we're using the British-Irish convention of imperial notation first, which is in common use in these islands. bigpad 19:18, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
Acutally we wouild probably use Hiberno-English--Vintagekits 20:16, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
Personally I think metric would be best. From my experience imperial is redundant apart from the road signs in the north (which you always just convert into km in your head anyway).Derry Boi 20:27, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
What! You're obviously on your ownr, as I and most people I know think in miles and I *never hear anyone say "such and such is x KM away!!" bigpad 10:47, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia is an international encyclopedia. Manual of style of units such as distances (WP:UNITS) is pretty clear. In US-related articles, use imperial. In UK-related articles, use one or the other but be consistent within the article. In all other cases use metric. This is a strange article in the since it is literally half UK-related and half non-UK-related. The last point from the MOS is that, "If the choice of units is arbitrary, use SI units as the main unit, with converted units in parentheses."
My preference is for metric. --sony-youthpléigh 20:10, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
We should be using KM first with imperial in brackets.--Vintagekits 20:16, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Well, the same distance conventions are used in Ireland and the UK, so there's no problem there. To "Vintagekits": why 'should' we. What evidence have you for this or is this your opinion? Thanks, bigpad 12:29, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Correct me if I am wrong but both countries are members of the EU and its standard EU practice to issue distances in Km.--Vintagekits 12:32, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
Looks like I am right after all!.--Vintagekits 12:34, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
It may be our much-loved EU convention to speak of KM but the common usage for the vast majority of people in the UK and Ireland is miles first. But I won't revert it to avoid an edit war bigpad 19:07, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
"common usage" in Ireland is kilometres!--Vintagekits 19:21, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
No it isn't, sorry! bigpad 11:02, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
Eh, ya it is.--Vintagekits 11:11, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
Depends how old you are... while all roadsigns are in Km (there is no doubt the odd exception), the older generation still think in and speak of miles, while the younger think in and speak of kilometres. And the ones in between have gotten very adept at dividing by 5 and multiplying by 8 and vice versa... BastunBaStun not BaTsun 11:47, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
I would agree with that Bastun, both are in common usage but the official status of the metric trumps the imperial, would you agree?--Vintagekits 12:04, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
Yup, absolutely. BastunBaStun not BaTsun 12:06, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

If by the "older generation" you mean people over 21, then you are correct... Km will never become the main way of working out distances in Ireland, north or south. bigpad 14:47, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Where can you buy crystal balls these days??!!!--Vintagekits 14:50, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
"Km will never become the main way of working out distances in Ireland, north or south"

(Sigh) Im sure there were people back in 1970 saying "Litres will never become the main way of selling milk (or petrol)" or "Kilogrammes will never become the main way of buying vegetables" and WHAT would they have thought of Euro currency ? 80.229.222.48 20:52, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Let alone decimal currency! Never catch on! What's wrong with LSD??? [well apart from the hallucinations obviously]
Distances have been shown in km on road signs in IE for at least 10 years. Admittedly the speed limits have just been done. Schools in IE were using metric routinely long before schools in UK began. In Oz, anybody under 40 routinely uses K without thinking about it, oldies hesitate a moment but still use K. Give it time - and not a lot either. --Red King 22:57, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

This is a pointless arguement. It's only a matter of time before metric distances are introduced as standard in the UK, in fact the Highways Agency (England) has already started erecting Driver Location Signs on Motorways and trunk roads exclusively in kiolometres: http://www.highways.gov.uk/knowledge/17088.aspx - Rubensni (talk) 13:56, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Date NI left Free State?:

On 7 December 1922, Stormont resolves to make its address to leave Irish Free State; 13 December, PM Craig confirms King had received and responded to address (but what day did the King receive the address? - That is the relevant date). The Governor of Northern Ireland's office was established by Letters Patent on 9 December 1922. Possibly this is the relevant date as it might be unlikely that the office would have been established if the King had not received the Stormont address on or before then. Some one might know or find out the answer?

The above repeats this User's entry on Partition of Ireland talk page. User Red King appeared to think that he had located a source. This user could not find anything re 13 December date on that link. If there is a statement to that effect, perhaps user Red King could set it out here on this talk page. This would be appreciated. In the mean time I have deleted reference to 13 December date in the absence of certainty. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Redking7 (talk • contribs) 20:56, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

I suspect that, according to the (unwritten!) constitution of the UK, the moment of partition happened when the King gave Royal Assent to the request from Northern Ireland and not before. I should think it very likely that Craig would have announced it immediately he got it. But I accept that the source is not clear and consequently can't be used as a citation for a specific date. [also a repeat of reply at Partition of Ireland] --Red King (talk) 21:38, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Photographs

I propose removing the image identifying itself as being of Swalinbar (it isn't) Co. Cavan (it's taken 6km into Fermanagh) and whose filename suggests that it's on the border (it isn't). It seems of questionable relevance to the article. I can substitute an image of mine of the border at Pettigo, Counties Donegal/Fermanagh. --Mackerski (talk) 18:34, 7 May 2008 (UTC)