Talk:Reproductive rights/Archive 1

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by apartmento I'm considering adding paragraphs discussing the reasons that the pro-life and pro-choice people have for their oppinions. I want to say that: http://www.family.org.au Prolife

-these babies are human, look human, suffer pain and the killing of them can be concidered infantcide
-late term abortions (after 20 weeks)are quite often survive when the are out of the womb
- it is sickening

Pro-Choice

-a woman has the right to her body
-the elimination of abortion will lead to dangerous backyard operation that are quite oftenly deadly for both the baby and the mother
-The baby if born might be put into an unloving, uncaring family

I'm not really good with words so may someone please put this into the article.

I don't agree with the JamesMLane edit adding a Pro-Life reference. I understand the intent to balance the loaded terms of each side, but "pro-life" corresponds to "pro-choice", not "reproductive rights". Can a better counterpart be found? If not, is it really needed? I know "framing" might itself be read as a loaded term, but it's also accurate for this and other labels (on both sides). -- Perey 23:14, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)

On what basis do you say that "pro-life" corresponds to "pro-choice", not "reproductive rights"? All three are terms that people prefer to use to describe their own positions. Of course "pro-life" is framing. Is it accurate? Well, I'd answer that we have a supposedly "pro-life" president who's caused the deaths of 100,000 people in Iraq. It's not going to work to say that "pro-life" and "pro-choice" are both fair, impartial, descriptive terms, while "reproductive rights" is some kind of Orwellian doublespeak. All these terms are in the same class. JamesMLane 23:23, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Of course they are. I'm not disputing that they're all loaded terms. But as it stands, the sentence you added implies that "pro-life" and "reproductive rights" are opposing arguments ("the other side of the controversy"). They aren't - "pro-choice" is the opposite of "pro-life" (because they both specifically address abortion), while "reproductive rights" is broader, encompassing other reproductive choices. If a better example can't be found (and I don't think there is one), perhaps we could just state that both sides use political framing, and link to relevant articles rather than adding examples here? -- Perey 02:12, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Maybe the problem is with the phrase "especially in regards to abortion". Wouldn't it be more accurate to say that the argument referred to is only with regard to abortion? I don't know if even the most vehement right-wingers say that birth control and family planning amount to "a right to kill the innocent". They may oppose such rights as encouraging immoral behavior or some such, but they don't use the same terminology as they do about abortion. Maybe the second paragraph should begin this way:
Some supporters of legal prohibitions against abortion oppose the use of the term "reproductive rights" in that context, because they see it as amounting to a "right to kill the innocent". They also argue that such rights...." (etc.)
Then, in the last sentence, insert "abortion" before "controversy". Those changes, together, would make clear that, as you say, "reproductive rights" is broader. I've also amplified that point by adding in the opposition to compulsory sterilization, which is one of the causes championed by the Center for Reproductive Rights ([1]). Would those changes address your concern? JamesMLane 02:49, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)
That works for me. It highlights the need for further discussion of other "reproductive rights" though—if I didn't know better I'd say we're on the way to unstubbing this! -- Perey 12:32, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Stevertigo's additions, my revisions

I've edited the article heavily, simply because it's not appropriate for the article to take a position on whether or not fetuses count as "living" (e.g, "a society granting legal sanction to women to abort a living pregnancy"). NARAL would say that they are not; James Dobson would say that they are. It's not for us to take a side here (see WP:NPOV). In light of this, I've made the following changes:

  • remove the second sentence of the lead. I integrated the first half of the sentence (controversial) into the lead, and dropped the rest for NPOV
  • removed scare quotes from around "rights" in the first sentence, second paragraph--since we're describing the framing of the issue here, the scare quotes weren't appropriate
  • removed "and liberal feminism"--feminism is broader than this, so I felt it wasn't really accurate, but I wouldn't be opposed to some sort of rephrasing.
  • Removed the entire first paragraph of the "social Rights versus human rights" section. It takes a position in the very first sentence ("perhaps best represented as choice between the human rights of women versus the human rights of fetal or "unborn" human beings"), and goes downhill from there--it completely ignores the significant point-of-view that argues that fetuses have no rights.
  • Remove the second paragraph of the same section. It too takes a position--note how it sets up the claim that RR are human rights, and then knocks it down ("Hence, in any heirarchy of legal principles, if "reproductive rights" are recongnized in the society, they must be subordinate to more universal rights such as human rights"). Again, this takes sides in a POV dispute over whether reproductive rights are human rights or not.
  • made a few adjustments to avoid the dispute over "human vs. social" rights in the next paragraphs--I tried to stick to the facts of the dispute.
  • Remove the paragraph about Roe v. Wade--it was too U.S.-centric and also digressed into non-reproductive rights areas (right to die etc)
  • Removed the paragraph about pro-life views on the right to privacy, and merged some of it into the preceding paragraph. It rests too heavily on the "social vs. human" frame for this section, which I've been trying to expunge. Mentioned that pro-life people seek to define fetuses as people, while pro-choice people oppose this--that's a good enough answer to the debate.
  • Remove the last paragraph--takes a POV ("both present moral contradictions"). Again, these may or may not be moral contradictions, but it's not the place of the article to determine that.
  • Removed "arbitrary" from discussion of trimesters; see trimester, which claims they're not completely arbitrary
  • Rearranged paragraph about middle grounds, and noted controversies over other issues

In addition, I think this article needs to cover more ground. The current section (renamed "fetal personhood") is OK, but needs to be a sub-section of a larger discussion. Specifically, we need:

  • A history section (when did the idea of RR evolve, etc)
  • A discussion of contraception, including history and current stances
  • A brief history of the abortion controversy as it relates to RR

Hope this helps. Best wishes, Meelar (talk) 14:59, July 27, 2005 (UTC)

Response

Thank you for looking at it, and taking such care and attention towards it. While I disagree with your characterization of the fetus as of questionable living status, I'm enthusastic about reviewing your changes and comments. Legal questionability doesnt equal factual, moral/ethical, social, or cultural doubt --likewise few would disagree that a "fetus" at 8.9 months [or perhaps even 4.9 months] is not, legalese aside, a "baby." Sireg-St|eve 19:12, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

  • After a quick look, I generally agree with the removal of the Social rights/ universal heirarchy/ preemption of rights etc. language, as it was mostly off topic, and my written scaffolding for thinking through how to write toward the topical issue. Maybe some of it will fit in some other more conceptual article. Sinreg -St|eve 19:28, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
  • Disagree with the removal of feminism, though I understand any confusion. Women's rights for the most part is embodied in the term "feminism" and is the category into which reproductive rights fits: Human rights > Female rights (feminism) > reproductive rights. While contraception can be considered a female right, it cannot be said that females have the right to kill anyone, and any exception for "fetuses" can (without being POV) be said to be among the social and legal exceptions to "dont kill people" principle. Embryos--i.e. different stages of pregnancy--have different distinct political constituents (POVs needing representation), while the absolutes (the most prominent) represent only either "yes" all or "no" all views. But its understandable that PC advocates want to avoid this distinction, and IMHO any resulting confusion is largely deliberate. -St|eve 20:07, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
    • If I might clarify--my problem was with the phrasing that RR is "largely synonymous with liberal feminism", when it's properly classified as a subset of the larger entity. Didn't mean to suggest that the two weren't linked. Might this help a proposed rephrasing? Best, Meelar (talk) 20:25, July 27, 2005 (UTC)

Women only?

Okay, so generally the term 'reproductive rights' does mean 'women's reproductive rights'. But since Stevertigo's edits, the article supports this de facto definition with logical argument, claiming that 'reproductive rights' is a term exclusive to women by logical necessity. I'd dispute this—women are not the exclusive 'vessels of human reproduction', and the first paragraph still has the example of forced sterilization, which can be forced on men as much as women. -- Perey 08:36, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

here are some links which might be worth adding if you care about it.

forced sterilization?

How is forced sterilization a component of reproductive rights? I would think anything forced is the exact opposite of rights.

Reproductive rights entails rights to procreate or not. Forced sterilization takes away the right to procreate—which is a reproductive right. —GrantNeufeld 06:12, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Unclear sentences

I find the sentence regarding the pro-life position unclear, and also unnecessary. It says:

Many "pro-life" advocates claim that the term is simply mincing words—claiming there to be no practical (hence meaningful) difference between the two statements.

Since the previous sentences state that the terms reproductive rights and pro-choice reference pretty much the same position, is it really important for this sentence that says, basically, that they are the same thing? It is redundant as well as misleading; the sentence is framed in such a way as to imply disagreement, where in fact there is no disagreement.

Furthermore, the next sentence,

However, supporters of reproductive rights may consider it misleading to say, in the context of reproduction politics, that a political figure “supports abortion”, when instead that person may simply support a woman's right to choose abortion among other alternatives.

seems out of place; if this is to be included in the article it should have a bit of explanation/background information.

I am inclined to take these two sentences out, but since they constitute a large part of the article, I thought it better to see if there is any opposition before doing so. Please let me know what you all think about this. Thanks, romarin[talk to her ] 19:06, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

As there were no comments, I've gone ahead and made these two changes. Please let me know, anyone, if you disagree or have any other suggestions. Thanks! romarin[talk to her ] 23:39, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

International reproductive rights

This article has a strong US bias information-wise (even more so since I added a bit of info on US supreme court cases), and I think that we should add more about reproductive rights in other countries. Can those of you who live in (or know a lot about repro rights in) other countries add a section? Then maybe this article can be taken out of the stub category... romarin[talk to her ] 20:12, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

Merge?

Recently, an anonymous user added a tag suggesting merging Pro-choice into this article. Although it's true that reproductive rights advocacy usually goes along with the "pro-choice" position, they are two different things and should have their own articles. There has been very little activity here lately, so I'm inclined to just remove the tag myself, but I will leave it for a couple days in case there is any discussion. romarin[talk to her ] 23:59, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Wow, am I the only one here? And I haven't even checked in for a week or so... ok, well I'm removing the merge tag, as it seems to make little sense. romarin[talk to her ] 14:35, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, I agree that they shouldn't be merged. --Andrew c 04:10, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
Personally I think that the applier of a merge tag has to justify its existence, and since that editor didn't do so at the time s/he added it, nor has s/he seen fit to defend it since it was questioned back in May, it is acceptable to just remove it.--Anchoress 02:19, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Compromise?

I believe the way it was worded before was unclear, and not really reflective of the "Pro-Choice" position, particularly as it is contrasted with the "Pro-Life" position. The way it was worded, that a woman should be able to decide "if and when she reproduces" doesn't really say much, as I'm sure those who are "anti-choice" would have no argument with people deciding when and if they should reproduce. The question hinges upon whether reproduction occurs at conception or birth, and if abortion is acceptable.

You said the Pro-Choice position isn't just about abortion, and in a sense, you are correct. But the very next line in the paragraph says that, "Reproductive rights are understood as encompassing more than just abortion, however." Therefore, my interpretation seems clearly the right one. The wording you were trying to preserve was POV, non-descriptive, and euphemistic. It sounded like a talking point and didn't really address the real distinctions between the overall concepts of Reproductive rights and Pro-Choice. Therefore, I have attempted a compromise.Killua 15:00, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't see what was unclear about the sentence as it was before, and it was prefectly representative of the pro-choice position, as I understand it. "Pro-choice" means the belief that women are in control of their reproduction, and "reproductive rights" refers to the view that women have the right to do so. This means choosing birth control, it means choosing abortion, it means choosing to give birth. All of these things are encompassed under reproductive rights, and that is why I think your alteration of the sentence is incorrect and POV.
As to your assertion that the pro-life position "would have no argument with people deciding when and if they should reproduce," this is not true. The pro-life position regarding abortion is that women should not be able to choose this option. Many pro-life organizations are also against contraception. The only correct way to go, according to most pro-lifers, is to have the baby. The phrase "if and when she reproduces" is really only applicable to the pro-choice position, for, as its name implies, it advocates that women have that choice in all circumstances.
The statement, "The only correct way to go, according to most pro-lifers, is to have the baby." is one of the bases of your reverting me, and it's a flaw. You're forgetting perhaps the most essential part about reproductive rights--that people have a choice as to whether they get pregnant in the first place. Sure, most Pro-Lifers don't believe in birth control like the pill or IUDs, but they might believe in condoms, sterilization, NFP, etc. Heck, even abstinence is a form of "control[ing] her reproduction by deciding if and when she bears children", is it not? Killua 19:59, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
How are the words I am trying to preserve POV now? They are open, yes, non-specific, yes, but not euphemistic .They say it like it is. This is the definition, that's all there is to it. If you think it's vague, then you need to understand that reproductive rights are themselves fairly vague.
The way it's phrased makes being both Pro-Life and Pro-Choice a possibility, which is ludicrous. This is accomplished by fuzzy wording, and I can state somewhat authoritatively, having studied both sides extensively, that the language is very NPOV-- it sounds like it's rhetoric right out of a PP brochure. People who are Pro-Life do not believe women have no choices at all regarding reproductive rights, just as people who are Pro-Choice don't believe nobody has a right to life. This is called framing the issue.Killua 19:59, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
As to the following sentence, I think it should be modified as well, as it is slightly redundant. But, I think it is very important to preserve, not necessarily the exact word-for-word phrase, but the meaning of the term as rights about reproduction, whatever they are. romarin [talk ] 17:14, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
The problem with your logic, and the underlying problem with the sentence, is the assumption that people who are "Pro-Life" oppose all human control of human reproduction. There are certainly people who believe women "should have the right control her reproduction by deciding if and when she bears children" but don't think abortion should be an option.
To illustrate a parallel situation, it would be like a person saying that Pro-Lifers just believe that human beings have a right to life. This is unclear, and engineered to cause people to agree and side with them. The real issue isn't the right to life of human beings, which is a general statement and readily agreed to, but the right to life of unborn human beings, which is more disputed. The way the sentence is phrased in this article sounds like if you are not Pro-Choice, you believe in forced pregnancy or sterilization. That's why it's NPOV. Reproductive rights are larger than Pro-Choice position-- and you are erasing that distinction. RR can run to gambit from opposition to rape, forced sterilization, forced pregnancy, forced abortion, to support for certain types of pregnancy planning tools, ranging from the rhythym method, NFP, condoms, IUDs, the pill, mifepristone, and abortion. RR and pro-choice are not the same thing. I prefer specificity. Killua 19:59, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
"Reproductive rights” is largely perceived as being synonymous with the “pro-choice” position, which states that abortion should be a legal option for any woman with a pregnancy.
If you disagree with the first part of this sentence, maybe that is the part you should be changing. Reproductive rights are not the same thing as pro-choice, and I never said they were, though there are many connections, as the text implies. The pro-choice position is about granting women a full-spectrum of reproductive rights, and that does not only mean the right to abortion. The way you have framed this now makes it sound like that's all it's about, and that is just not the case.
You say, "The way it's phrased makes being both Pro-Life and Pro-Choice a possibility, which is ludicrous". No it's not, there are plenty of people who identify somewhere in the middle. Although this issue is often quite poliarized, it is complex and all points along the spectrum are possible, when it comes to self-identification. I do no believe that I said anything to the effect of pro-lifers being against all reproductive options; I only said that most of them are against contraception (many include condoms in that too), and that they see having a baby as the best answer to an unplanned/unwanted pregnancy. How is this inaccurate?
I think where we are having a disconnect revolves around the fact that you see my definition of pro-choice as trying to completely exclude pro-life, which is not necessarily the case. There are issues comprised in reproductive rights that both sides can agree on, such as "natural" birth control options, and this can certainly be added into the article. Reproductive rights is not exclusive to the pro-choice position. I think we agree on that; we're just going about showing it in different ways. Again, maybe it's the first part of the sentence that needs to be changed, rather than the second part. I just don't think there is any reason to give an incomplete portrait of the pro-choice movement; this is, in fact, making the sentence doubly inaccuate, rather than removing the root of the inaccuracy.
I really don't feel like getting into an edit war with you on this, and I think we should hold off until others can come and take a look at the situation. I am also about to leave for a long Wikibreak, due to real-life vacation. I have a big problem with the sentence as it stands now, for the reasons I have mentioned, but for the sake of peace I am going to leave it. If you understand the concepts I am trying to convey here, and feel like actually compromising I would be more than willing to do so. But what I really think we need at this point is some other opinions. Thanks, romarin [talk ] 20:55, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
I thank you for your civility in this. I, too, do not wish an edit war. And have a great vacation. ^_^ But, in the meantime, as I see you've asked for others to come in from the Abortion Project page, I want to state my case a little clearly. The paragraph as I would have it is thus:
"Reproductive rights” is largely perceived as being synonymous with the “pro-choice” position, which states that abortion should be a legal option for any woman with a pregnancy. Reproductive rights are understood as encompassing more than just abortion, however. Members of the reproductive rights movement also believe that reproductive rights are human rights, and as such men and women should be granted affordable access to contraception, as well as education about contraception and sexually transmitted infections."
Yours is thus:
""Reproductive rights” is largely perceived as being synonymous with the “pro-choice” position, which states that a woman should have the right control her reproduction by deciding if and when she bears children. Members of the reproductive rights movement also believe that reproductive rights are human rights, and as such men and women should be granted affordable access to contraception, as well as education about contraception and sexually transmitted infections."
I believe there is a distinction between the terms "pro-choice" and "reproductive rights", as do you. I believe your paragraph erases this distinction, or at least makes it very minimal. I am aware the pro-choice movement involves more than abortion. But currently, politically and legally, it is almost 99% concerned with what a woman's choices are after pregnancy has begun. Now, the RR movement is maybe 90% concerned with the same. Not a big difference, and that's why the sentence said they were seen sometimes as being "synonymous". However, there are differences, and my version lays out these contrasts ina simple manner. I believe your version does not, and, moreover, the phrase "right [to] control her reproduction by deciding if and when she bears children" is not very well written, and sounds a bit POV to my ears.Killua 03:39, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Here is the problem. We can all agree that "Pro-choice" means more than "pro-abortion". And we can all agree that "reproductive rights" means more than "pro-abortion". The wording that Killua is pushing acknowledges that the public sometimes confuses the difference between pro-choice and reproductive rights, but ignores the fact that there is a misconception about what "pro-choice" is. Romarin's version acknowledges the subtle differences in the actual meaning behind these terms, but at the expensive of loosing the public misconception about these terms. While the first solution that came to mind for me was something like "Reproductive rights is largely perceived as being synonymous with the “pro-choice” position, which in turn is often incorrectly perceived by the public to be synonymous with 'abortion should be a legal option for any woman with a pregnancy.'" But as you can see, this sentence is very wordy. Anyway, I think a solution that points out both the commonly perceived definitions and the more 'accurate' definitions of these terms would work.--Andrew c 21:06, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

abortion as a reproductive right

There has been some slow edit warring over including what appears to be a semantic argument. First of all, this sort of disputed content needs to be verifiable, and cited per wikipedia policy. Next, we have to keep in mind self-identity. The vast majority of advocates for so-called 'reproductive rights' include abortion in their stance. We cannot say that this is controversial, when that simply isn't the case for most reproductive rights organizations. (google 'reproductive rights' and browse the organizations that come up). I'd like to see sources that discuss this alleged controversy, and it would be nice to know what reproductive rights organizations exclude abortion from their veiw. If this information cannot be verified, then it has no place in the article. (sorry if my tone is a little harsh. I seriously would like to work this out on talk, and avoid further reverting before this matter is settled here).--Andrew c 06:17, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

It's debateable whether reproduction occurs at conception, birth, or sometime after. The fact that pregnancies can be miscarried naturally, and that mammals are programmed to care for their children long after pregnancy, suggests to me that reproduction, in its strictly textbook definition, is largely dependent upon successfully producing offspring.
But, whatever the case, there is a solution. The issue can be sidestepped by changing "rights not to reproduce" to "rights to not reproduce or to control reproduction." After all, birth control is not only used when people desire not to have children altogether; it is also used to plan families, by limiting the number of children, or spacing them in age. Because many people who use contraception have, or go on to have, children, it is inaccurate to list it as being about a "right not to reproduce."
"Rights to not reproduce or to control reproduction" is open-ended. It leaves wiggle room for the perception that abortion is about "the right terminate a pregnancy after reproduction has taken place," but doesn't conclusively state conception=reproduction. I believe it is a suitable solution to both Andrew c's and Jakes18's concerns. -Severa (!!!) 18:00, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
Not only does the word "reproduce" have different meanings, there is debate over when reproduction actually occurs. People who use the term "reproductive rights" obviously consider abortion to be included in those rights. Opponents play semantic games, which is noted in the criticism section. I think including that section is a good solution to this problem that has arisen. This article is about reproductive rights, which included abortion rights. Even if this is technically inaccurate, wikipedia is about verifiablity, not truth. We shouldn't frame a position through its critics. We should respect self identity. Furthermore, I believe the way we have it phrased now, it is clear that this is what reproductive rights advocates support, not some greater truth about human rights in general. --Andrew c 13:54, 6 January 2007 (UTC)


Reply to MrDarcy's Reverts

I added some text to the Reproductive Rights article to correct the bias already present in the article. The article only referred to Reproductive Rights as a "Women's Rights Issue", and ignored any reproductive rights issues relevant to Men's Rights. As the NPOV page states articles must be "representing fairly and without bias all significant views ". I quoted the position of an external verifiable source Choice4Men. Whether or not you agree with the Choice4Men position it is a 'significant view'.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Afp2258 (talk • contribs) 12:49, 31 January 2007.

First of all, please sign your talk page postings by typing four tildes (~~~~). Next, we have notability guidelines, reliable source guidelines, and an undue weight section of the NPOV guidelines. You did not explain why you believe this view is significant, you simply stated it so. Please try to explain its significance, while keeping in mind the 3 pages I referred to. Thanks!-Andrew c 19:40, 31 January 2007 (UTC)