Talk:Reply of the Zaporozhian Cossacks

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Ukraine Portal
This page is within the scope of WikiProject Ukraine. If you would like to participate, please join the project and help with our open tasks.
B This article has been rated as B-Class on the assessment scale.
Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the importance scale.

Contents

[edit] the game

someone should add that the painting is used on the cover of cossacks the game. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.111.72.115 (talk) 15:50, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Well, I don't think that this is so neccesesary. BTW, there are TWO versions of this painting and I can't recollect - what was in the game...

(SRY for my English, actually I'm Ukrainian :) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.214.78.19 (talk) 19:13, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] wrong translations

  1. „Не будеш ти, сукiн ти сину, синiв христiянських пiд собой мати“
is translated with„ever wilt thou be fit to have the sons of Christ under thee.“, but "сукiн ти сину" was forgotten (?), wich means "you son of a bitch"
  1. "твойого вiйска ми не боiмось, землею i водою будем биться з тобою, распройоб твою мать."
in this →"Thy army we fear not, and by land and by sea in our chaikas we will do battle against thee." part was also forgotten (?) to translate "распройоб твою мать", wich has has a similar meaning like #1
  1. "різницька собака, нехрещений лоб, мать твою в'йоб!"
this part was not tranlated at all, a (provisional) translation would be "a butcher's dog, unbaptised forehead (im 100% shure that is wrong, bur i don't know how was that word meant in this context)".i don't know what "мать твою в'йоб!" exactly means, but it has a similar meaning (a sexual profanity against the sultan's mother)
  1. "за це поцілуй в сраку нас!" is wrongly translated with "and thou can kiss us thou knowest where!", but does mean "and thou can kiss our ass!"

--Baruch ben Alexander - ☠☢☣ 08:17, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Decency for Whom?

I came across this article courtesy of the Random Article link. A great story it is, and the painting is a wonderful illustration of the story. I'm glad I found this!

However, someone has written above the Russian original text "For the sake of decency, this letter is not translated literally". Just who is being protected here? If I could read Russian, I would not be spared this "indecency". So why should I be spared because none of the languages I speak are Russian? If it really is more vulgar literally translated, then I say, bring it on! Please. Unschool 03:50, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Seriously, this is an information database, not FCC headquarters or some book-burning church! Decency should not be considered here, accuracy should. Every indecent concept has its own article on wikipedia for God sakes! Wikipedia is suppose to be for speakers of a variety of languages, its unfair for this to be censored because some uptight idiot doesn't like the words they use. It's history, you moron! I'm going to work on translating it online, but if anyone knows Russian, please translate this and add the actual text to this article --some guy 05:56, 01 June 2006
The language in which the letter was written originally is Ukrainian though, not Russian. While a Russian would be able to understand it without much trouble (I do, at least), translating it is a different thing - we wouldn't want to lose any nuances here, now would we? ;) int19h 08:15, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
Could someone translate this? Decency be damned, if we don't tell it as it is, we're not much of an Encyclopedia, are we? The Frederick 14:34, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
I am coming slowly to the conclusion that whoever wrote those words "For the sake of decency, this letter is not translated literally" was probably either bluffing--they don't really know themselves, and so therefore made this comment--or else they were just repeating something that they heard from some humanities professor they had once. Unschool 06:33, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps that referred to an earlier version in this article, because I am reading the letter in Ukrainian, and all of the naughty words seem to be intact (although perhaps the original was naughtier still). I'll remove the decency remark. —Michael Z. 2006-06-28 15:50 Z

Ukrainian version is indeed uncensored, and always was. It is the English translation which lacks all the profanities. -- int19h 12:28, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] English translation

English translation along with detailed analysis is available at

http://humanities.uchicago.edu/depts/slavic/papers/Friedman-Zaporozhci.pdf

The letter is probably a fake, but it's an old and famous fake and it does reflect the spirit of the people. By the way, the version quoted in the Wikipedia article is quite distorted with extra swear words that do not appear in the original faked (?) text. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.199.22.40 (talk • contribs) 00:20, 2 July 2006

I can, with some difficulty, understand the Ukrainian text, as the swear words in Polish are not much different :-) The English text is not only bowdlerized, but also completely incorrect in places: some parts are omitted, others (chaikas, for instance) added. I fail to see why the text should be mistranslated so; after all, the whole point of the letter was the insults. Omit the insults, and there is hardly anything left. Wikipedia is not a children's book, and it should include an accurate translation. Regrettably, the link mentioned above (while slightly more accurate) also leaves out some ruder phrases. My own best attempt follows:

Zaporozhyan Cossacs to the Turkish Sultan!

You, sultan, turkish devil, brother and comrade of the Devil, secretary of Lucifer himself. Some kind of damn knight you are, who cannot stick a pin into a bare ass! The devil shits, and your army eats. You will not, you son of a bitch, make sons of christians your subjects; we are not afraid of your soldiers, we will fight you on land and on sea, screw your mother.

You are the Babylonian scullion, Macedonian cart-driver, Jerusalem brewer, Alexandrian goat-fucker, swineherd of Greater and Lesser Egypt, Armenian pig, Podolian thief, Tartar catamite, Kamyanets hangman, and the fool of all the world and underworld. An idiot before God, grandson of the Serpent, and a bend in the dick. You have a pig's face, a mare's arse, you're a butcher's dog, an unbaptized head, fuck your mother!

That is what the Cossacs say to you, asshole. You're not even fit to feed pigs of christians. Now we end, we know not the date and have no calendar, the moon is in the sky, the year the Lord knows, the day is the same with us here as with you over there, now you can kiss our arses.

I have replaced the bowdlerized text with this version, rather than wait until someone else musters the guts to do so. Some fragments are uncertain; in particular the phrase “распройоб твою мать” which I lamely rendered “screw your mother”, although I think the original meaning is different and more violent. I am also unsure if “и нашого хуя крюк” which I rendered as “a bend in the dick”, and “коли голою сракою їжака не вб'єш” which I rendered “who cannot stick a pin into a bare ass” are correct. Can somebody who knows Ukrainian better review the text, please. Freederick 14:27, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

am also unsure if “и нашого хуя крюк” which I rendered as “a bend in the dick”, that is translated wrong. The context makes it seem a lot less explicit.

I've edited out the cusswords because --1. The letter is fake and there are many versions of it. --2. We are trying to protect the decency and reputation of Wikipedia. If anyone wants to read the actual translation they can visit the talk page. By the way, there is a big difference between Russian and Ukrainian. I am fluebnt in both, I should know. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 65.37.115.197 (talk • contribs) .

Please don't edit out vulgar language, for either of the cited reasons. 2. We are not trying to protect Wikipedia's "decency", and bowdlerizing the text is certainly not good for an encyclopedia's reputation—Wikipedia is not censored. 1. Many historic documents—both real and fake—are known from several versions: that is no excuse to censor them.  —Michael Z. 2006-11-13 23:21 Z

Some minor corrections. "Якiй ти в чорта лицар" means 'What a hell you're <called> a knight'. And 'to slay/to scare the hedgehog with a bare ass' is a firm idiome in Russian and Ukraininan. Also, "плюгавче" doesn't mean 'asshole'. Garret Beaumain 22:45, 13 November 2006 (UTC)Garret Beaumain

Good job, everyone. I hope you don't mind that I've further refined the translation. "Распройоб" is something like "screw over", but not perfectly translatable, or "ravage", but more vulgar—perhaps "go fuck over your mother".
"Плюгавче": would a plyuhavets’ be a plough boy? Or someone worthy of being spat at? I've translated it as lowlife for now. —Michael Z. 2006-11-14 01:01 Z

If the letter was translated a bit more loosely, it could better convey the original meter and rhyme. But then, I'm no poet: "...for numbers we lack, and having no almanac,... but the date over here is the same over there; so give us a kiss, you know where!" —Michael Z. 2006-11-14 01:22 Z

Your corrections to my translation are right on the money, thanks Mzajac! It is much better. The only thing I changed was “...the devil excretes...” back to “...the devil shits...” both because it renders the original connotation more closely and because it rhymes with “eats” better. I believe it would be hard to improve the translation any more now. Freederick 15:43, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
Shit doesn't rhyme with eat.
It does have a rhythm which reflects the rhyme in the original. But a closer translation would probably be "the devil shits it out and your army shovels it in", "wolfs it down", or "gobbles it up". Požyraty has the sense of eating like an animal, rather than ïsty like a person. —Michael Z. 2008-05-14 08:58 z

Transposing the original document into modern english doesn't do anyone a service. Adding Fuck and Shit every other sentence for shock value doesn't actually make the document any better, it just makes it look like a bunch of kids from 2007 wrote it rather than a group of Cossacks from the 17th century. You don't need to interpret the words for everyone and the actual insults (ex: excretes instead of shits) held a lot more weight as insults back then than they did now.

I disagree. The Cossacks used plain Slavic words and the translation, not "transposition", uses plain Anglo-Saxon ones, without adding anything. What exactly do you think 17th-c Cossacks were like? They drank a lot of horilka and told the Sultan to go fuck himself, crafting the reply in loving detail (and they probably bcc'd all of Christendom). It captures the original sense of the most vulgar note in the history of diplomatic relations. Bowdlerizing it with "crook in our maleness" and "sexual relations with your mother" wouldn't exactly make us look adult. —Michael Z. 2008-05-14 08:51 z

[edit] == Inconsistency: ==

The result of the conflict between the Ottomans & the Cossacks has been reported inconsistently:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mehmed_IV suggests, the Ottomans won; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reply_of_the_Zaporozhian_Cossacks suggests, the Cossacks won.

The incorrect one needs to be corrected.

Eberber 17:28, 9 September 2007 (UTC)eberber