Talk:Renault R35

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The original article had some copyright problems: http://www.wwiivehicles.com/france/tanks_light/r_35.html was plundered, which again stole from Foss's Salamander Tanks book :o).

--MWAK 09:06, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

R 35 at the Musée des Blindés at Saumur next to a H 35. The longer gun ia a postwar conversion - that's bullshit. You can clearly see the R 39 tank on this foto, with it's original "longer" gun. And this R 39 is next to R 35 with its short gun, not to H 35. There is H 39 (not H 35) tank on display in Saumur, you can see part of its track on the picture. Don't know where is this R 39 now, this August it was not on display. See my pictures : http://pics.livejournal.com/fat_yankey/pic/00047t4x/g13 and http://pics.livejournal.com/fat_yankey/pic/0004cd95/g13 .

I confess to having made a severe mistake in calling the R 35 a H 35 :oS. However, as far as I know, though the museum has labelled it as such for many years, there is no proof this is a "real" R 39 — if these indeed exist at all... The vehicles equipped with the SA38 have long been assumed to be German or postwar French conversions, or at best combinations of R 40 turrets with R 35 hulls made in June. Today there is evidence some vehicles were probably indeed converted in May/June but no more than a few dozen. There is no evidence for vehicles having been produced with the SA38 as their original gun. It also seems unlikely "R 39" was ever an official designation.
BTW, those are very good pictures you made! Would you consider uploading some of them to Wikicommons? --MWAK 17:52, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
Well, I rely on secondary sources, so I'm not going to argue too much, but it seems that some eastern European authors (russian and polish) believe that the latest production of R 35 came with SA38. They even tell the numbers (273 R39 were allegedly produced). Of course, they could be mistaken. But anyway, if everyone can clearly read "R 39" on the table in front of the tank on the picture, it deserves some explanatons, I think.
I have no problems with sharing, but I need to learn how to use Wikicommons first.
We eagerly await the outcome! ;o). As regards the 273 estimate of "R 39" production: this was reached by mere extrapolation. We know that any converted vehicles would have been given to platoon, company and battalion commanders. There are respectively nine, three and one of these in a single battalion, in total thirteen; there were 21 R 35 battalions; thirteen times 21 makes 273! In reality only a few commanders had modified tanks. We know this from photographical evidence — wartime pictures of "R 39"s are extremely rare — and from the fact that fitting the APXR1 turret was an emergency measure: the H 35s had priority and the R 35s were originally only scheduled to be modified from late 1940 onwards. Given the production capacity for the SA38 gun, if 273 "R 39"s had been created, they would have outnumbered the "H 39"s and this clearly wasn't the case. In May production of the R 35 had already been discontinued in favour of the R 40, which makes it unlikely any vehicle had the SA38 as its first gun — however, there was a large reserve of R 35 hulls, so this possibility cannot be completely excluded, as the APXR was a standard turret, compatible to both R 35 and H 35. The Saumur "R 39", I've been told, is one of the vehicles rebuilt after the war for the Gendarmerie, which used the type in the "R 39" configuration until 1951, when it was phased out for the Sherman.--MWAK 05:53, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
Oh, as I can see you added this to the article. Thanks. On my hand, I uploaded some pictures on Wikicommons, enjoy.Fat yankey 18:10, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
Thank you — and I will! Especially the AMC 35 :o)--MWAK 19:00, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] R35 in the IDF

From Moshe Givati - In their hands the steel was tempered [MoD 1998, p 38, 42]: 5 Syrian R-35s took part in the attack on Degania. All were disabled by PIAT rounds (so the defenders did have some AT weapons) and Molotov cocktail. One, hit by Molotov cocktail, was in a particularly poor state and was left where it was stopped (eventually the tank became monument; there are photos here: http://www.degania.org.il/eng/tour3.htm). One more was brought to kibbutz Mizra where an attemt was made to repair it. When the attempt failed, the tank was mounted on a heavy truck and was used in an attack on Meggido from the truck platform. The remaining three were brought to the Haganah workshop in Tel Litvinski (Tel HaShomer). One of those was quickly repaired, others "were disassembled and needed more work" (?). Later Givati mentions that the 8th Armored Brigade (82th battalion, light tanks company) had R-35(s) just before Operation Danny (July 1948), although doesn't say how many and if the tank(s) actually saw combat.

According to Oleg Granovskiy - Names, Designations and Service Figures of IDF Armored Vehicles (Russian; http://www.waronline.org/IDF/Articles/Armor/1948-1952_tanks.html), 2-3 tanks were adopted, all were retired in 1952.

The tank in Latrun is not one of the captured Syrian ones, it was received from a French museum. The tablet near the tank says two Syrian tanks were captured (perhaps it means that two were used / adopted / made operational ?) Bukvoed 18:32, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

I've been told that the tank was shipped from Israel to the Musée des Blindés, having battle damage — I've seen it myself with the engine deck ripped open by an explosion, damage which I associated with the Degania fight — and was restored by the French in exchange for some Israeli materiel. But maybe I was misinformed.--MWAK 10:47, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
Interesting... may be I was wrong... Where did this information come from ? Anyway, I'll try to check. Bukvoed 11:58, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
From the officer showing me the tank. But perhaps he falsely assumed it came from Israel. Or perhaps donating a tank to Israel is alright, while openly restoring an Israeli tank would be too much of an involvement, given the political sensitivities :o).--MWAK 08:28, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
Saumur museum staff seemed quite happy to organize a special exhibit when they got their Merkava MkI - which I guess it arrived at the same time as the upgunned R35, in Spring 2004. PpPachy 15:32, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
Which upgunned R35 are you referring to, exactly?--MWAK 08:22, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
This one: http://www.wistiti.fr/Wistiti/FR_fr/asp/album/Album-photo-Galerie.asp?album=edbaaEFBT110520VMQYD&page=15 PpPachy 10:32, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
Very interesting :o).--MWAK 17:43, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

The text in the article claiming the defenders had no anti-tank weaponry isn't accurate - the R35s were knocked out primarily by 20mm anti-tank guns.

In fact, the R35 that was left at Degania, as a memorial, has a very clear penetration on the cupola, from a 20mm round, although this didn't manage to knock out the tank - which was later disabled by Molotov cocktails. The other two R35s were knocked out only by 20mm fire (they didn't get close enough for Molotov cocktails). Here are some great images of the R35 at the Degania memorial, with some focus on the damage area.

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c320/BMoores/israel/27112007500.jpg http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c320/BMoores/israel/27112007499.jpg http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c320/BMoores/israel/27112007502.jpg

These images aren't mine, so I can't wikify them, by the way.

Here's a good reference which talks a little more about the battle. http://www.balagan.org.uk/war/ai/1948/chronology.htm

Warthog32 (talk) 22:49, 28 November 2007 (UTC)