Talk:Renaissance fair

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Contents 1 Fairs Mentioned 2 External links 3 Purity test external link 4 "Commercialism" section (Sept 2005) 5 "Notable fairs" 6 Ye Olde vs. Ye New 7 Entertainer Links 8 More Historical Timeline Ideas 9 Fair or Faire? 10 Fair links 11 History 12 Myths 13 Images and Photos 14 Notable Fairs Section Reads Like An Advertisement 15 Overhaul 16 Photo/Image Wish List 17 I Would Love Some References for The History of the Development of the Ren Fair 18 Some notes on the situation in Europe 19 List of notable fairs 20 biggest fair 21 Images available

[edit] Fairs Mentioned

While this article is a good start, it seems to overly emphasize the California faires. While it gives a few sentences to Bristol and mentions the names of other faires, all of the history and indeed, name-dropping seems to revolve around the Pleasure Faires of California. Now I don't deny that the California faires are an important part of the story, but they are only part of it.

Although I don't have the knowledge to fix it, it would be great if the article could incorporate numbers to give a better idea of just how many faires there are and give an idea of the different types of fairs there are (i.e. those that run a weekend, those that run all summer, hard-structure vs. soft, etc.). Numbers around attendance would also give a good idea of the varying sizes of the faires.

[edit] External links

Please discuss. - brenneman^(t)(c) 02:49, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

• Okay, since this is a Ren Fest topic, it seems reasonable to have one of the external links should be to an index of all known active ren fests (rather than trying to list them directly, or even discuss individual events). www.faires.com (Mike Bonk's Directorie) is the most active, up-to-date index going. Another suggestion for links would be to massive photo gallery sites for "seeing" what this is about -- but I removed my own link until I know it's okay to do so. Also, it would seem that links to a publication dealing specifically with renaissance festivals (renreporter.com) would fit in as well. Or am I wrong? (Please excuse my ignorance.) --Allen Huffman 20:54, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
  • Mike Bonk's Directorie sounds fair enough to me (pun alert, battle stations) unless there are other competing directorie-s, then we have to make some further evaluation.
    • I think he's the only all-over index that is being updated. renaissancefestivals.com is one, too, but he's not nearly as agressive as Bonk. So we can list it, and if there's a better resource, someone can fix it. --Allen Huffman 22:07, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Same criteria need to be applied to renreporter.com - we have to ensure we're not favouring it at the expense of others of its ilk. Free advertising and all.
    • Are there any other publications that are specific to renaissance festivals? There is Renaissance magazine, but it's "renaissance" in general (with festival stuff) and not specific. --Allen Huffman 22:07, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
  • While a photo gallery is a good idea, adding your own site in is pretty much up there with Nazi Clown Porn on list of things that attract the ire of the wikigods. brenneman^(t)(c) 00:14, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
    • Understood. Is there a larger photo gallery of festival photos? --Allen Huffman 22:07, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
      • The Faire-Folk Photo Listings is massive and divided by state, faire, and year. (http://www.faire-folk.com/photolist.html) - however, I run it, and do not wish to bring down ire of the ilk engendered by Nazi Clown Porn -- Meghan Brunner 23:23, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

I think there are far too many External Links. Frankly, I am tempted to remove ALL links to random photo sites and fan clubs. The link to Renaissance Festival books at the British Library is very interesting -- but it is to records of real, actual, Renaissance festivals (i.e. 15th - 17th centuries). Does it belong here? I think the external links should be limited to big, general info sites, and not to specific fairs (those links belong on the pages devoted to those specific fairs, if Wiki worthy). Artemis-Arethusa 18:27, 28 August 2007 (UTC) (Me again, a little later) Lots of other, bigger things have far fewer external links. "Science fiction convention", a category comparable to this one, if not even broader, has only eight, and so does ""Open air museum". This links list needs paring. Artemis-Arethusa 20:12, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

I have pared away some links which were merely to snapshot galleries. I also removed the link to the Renaissance Faire Wiki, which I explored and found to be abysmally small and having no activity at all in the last 30 days (i.e. no edits or anything). Also some of those links were to old, barely updated sites. I have left, I hope, the most useful and general links. Artemis-Arethusa 23:49, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Purity test external link

Anyone know why my link was removed in this edit? edit history And again in this edit? edit history 2 And yet again what is going on and why is this being done? [68.83.125.151]

Well for one it's non-encyclopedic, Wikipedia is not a link farm. See Wikipedia:External links for guidance on what types of external links are appropriate in an encyclopedia project. Perhaps you should try Unencyclopedia for joke/humour sites. -- Stbalbach 02:41, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

The links that I was referring to were not the purity test links but the links to the MDRF Friends of Faire group which does fit in with the kink of links that are appropriate especially considering we have the MDRF Wiki on the site.—This unsigned comment was added by Toren (talk • contribs) .

yeah I don't know why someone was deleting that. --Stbalbach 15:57, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Commercialism" section (Sept 2005)

The title of the section "Commentaries on Current Faires, Internal Politics, and Commercialism" has been changed to just "Commericalism" by Aaron... but this just draws further attention to the fact that this section is problematic.
I created the earlier title to point out that this content was really "Commentary"... As the opening paragraph is editorializing (i.e. non-encyclopedic), I am moving it here to the Discussion page until someone can edit it to remove bias/personal opinion (also needs some rewriting if it is to be used in main article).

Commercialism
The California festival has largely changed since the seventies and eighties when it rivaled Oktoberfest 
in Beer Sales and incorporated a vision of the emerging renaissance of the sixties into its colorful street 
scene. Face painters and cookiejesters, Flamenco performers and Pinwheels all portrayed both a historical and 
present renaissance. Many of the workers also attended shows of the Grateful Dead, and the crafts were 
unrivaled in the state. Largely declining in the quality of crafts and intensity of theatrical experience
the crew and cast have moved on to other ventures and the emphasis is no longer on interactive ensemble theatre.
After famed longform improvisation performer and Faire employee Hal Taylor passed, the final link with a history 
steeped in performers from Second City and the Groundlings was eroded. The festival still includes music, 
dance and stage performances, scattered lightly through the open air facilities.

It may be that this just belongs here in discussion, and should not be edited and moved back.
Regards, Liberty Miller September 20, 2005 (22:22 UTC)

• This is a hot topic faced by any area of fandom. Newbies may accept the corporate presence, Budweiser beer and T-shirt stands and those events will be the ones they grow up with and always cherish, while oldtimers won't take to it. Same thing at Disney theme parks (or pretty much anywhere else). But, talk of differences through the years would be fitting. "Fairs in the 60s / 70s / 80s" talking about the birth of R.E.C. and Mid America festivals and such. Actually, a timeline of events would be a very cool thing (and a massive undertaking, considering how many events only lasted a year or so). --Allen Huffman 22:09, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] "Notable fairs"

To avoid opinion, simple research could determine: Longest continually running fair, longest running (total time, if defunct), largest fair (property/size), highest attended fair, and maybe longest fair operational season (event open the most weekends). The jaded patron in me wants to add "most expensive event" like media always does when talking about Orlando theme parks... --Allen Huffman 22:18, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Ye Olde vs. Ye New

The booths selling stuff with signs that say "Ye Olde <insert name>" always seemed very unrennaisance to me. Sure, it's a nostalgia-fest, but if it were a real Rennasiance Fair, everything would be "Ye New". I think it would be clever marketing, for example, for a stand selling french fries to market them as "Ye New" discovery from the new world...--RLent 19:06, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Not to be too picky, but I have been to or worked at 31 of the 200+ faires, and have yet to find any booth with a sign saying "Ye Olde". I have seen a couple "Shoppes", but they are rare. I would argue that using these terms is not typical of faires, and should probably be deleted from the article. (population size ca 200; sample size 31 = ca. 15%). These terms do appear regularly in printed advertising, such as programs) JSweetland (on the road)

[edit] Entertainer Links

Perhaps, as a guideline, we could use some psuedo standard for entertainer listings. As much as I'd like to add my group to the list, the reality is that the listing contains alot of relatively new acts known only in a small regional area, and misses alot of the national touring acts (jousting troupes, Smee and Blogg, Puke and Snot, endless others) that have been performing nationwide for decades. Perhaps we can work on a better list, listing acts and when they started, as a frame of reference. A group performing for 25 years is probably a better example of a seasoned renfest act than, say, my show which is only in its fourth season. (Of course, *personally* I love having "new" acts listed; gives the next generation some help!) Allen Huffman 16:16, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

More to the point, Wikipedia is not supposed to be used for personal and business promotion (a fact that is stated quite clearly). The audacity of certain performers posting their own links (not to mention creating their own Wikipedia pages) is ridiculous. If the article is supposed to be about Renaissance Festivals, then let it be about Renaissance Festivals and leave out the personal plugs. Bretblackshear 04:29, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] More Historical Timeline Ideas

Is anyone interested in tracing the idea of the Renaissance Fair as far back as they can? I believe the idea really gelled with the Eglinton Tournament in 1839, but there must be other examples too. Yes, it would be tricky, but it is an interesting sociological development. Artemis-Arethusa 00:17, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Fair or Faire?

Are they the same? If they are, which should the article use? If they are different, what is the difference? --Guinnog 07:10, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

I did a copyedit; I really like this article, it captures well the experience of attending a fair as I did today. But a few references would really help it. --Guinnog 07:35, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

The difference appears to just be marketing, as events across America use both Fair and Faire, which is unfortunate from an advertising standpoint since the average Joe (ie, patrons) doesn't know to add an 'e' to a website domain. This causes events I do radio ads for to have to say "that's fair with an 'e' on the end." --Allen Huffman 21:33, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

They're not the same. "Faire" is probably marketing. Sticking with the idea of having these things set in the middle ages (but with later Renaissance elements pegged in for entertainment value), I implore someone to find me some solid proof that the word "faire" isn't supposed to stem from "feyre" or "feria." In other words, the "e" is appended as an added effect. "Faire" is a lot easier to remember than "feyre," and just like your average joe probably can't spell "Renaissance" they probably couldn't remember "feyre..." But then again, does it even make sense to use "feyre?" It's a Middle English word, is it justifiable to say it fits entirely within the Renaissance? Sure, there was the 12th century Renaissance, which fits entirely in the middle ages, but don't "ren faires" typically celebrate the latter one, the one that was widespread throughout Europe? This is a really confusing point... seeing as the article is listed as dealing with the middle ages, but don't fairs typically espouse the later European Renaissance? Shouldn't they be called "Dark Age Fairs" or "Middle Age Fairs" instead?

Don't take this as an attack, it just doesn't seem correct. However, just because it's not correct doesn't mean people will change it. From everything I've ever seen, the preferred spelling is "faire." Doesn't matter if it's wrong, it's just how it is.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.0.235.67 (talk • contribs) 06:56, 19 October 2007

Understood, but I think you could have integrated it better into the article. "Somewhat-incorrect" is awkward, and is your own interpretation. The etymology just seems to have come out of nowhere. I'm going to think about this one and see if I can make it work better. Someone else care to chime in? — HelloAnnyong [ t · c ] 13:15, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

The English language lacked a "correct" spelling system for most of its life. Fair was spelled in 100 different ways before dictionaries started pinning down what was deemed correct and incorrect - the Oxford English Dictionary cites the use of "fayre" and "faire" in 1489 and 1383, respectively.Terinthanas 05:45, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Cheers on your edit/cleanup. That's much better. — HelloAnnyong [ t · c ] 06:44, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for cleaning up the article. My original "somewhat incorrect" was awkward. I think the wording "likely originated from" is a much better way to explain it. It's a way of saying it seems like it came from that, but doesn't irrefutably prove that it did. Also, integrating it into the other things these fairs are called was also pretty sharp. Good edit.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.48.40.133 (talk • contribs) 00:59, November 19, 2007

[edit] Fair links

Restored the external links to the fairs. It is not clear this is spam. It seems the appropriate article to link to fairs. -- Stbalbach 16:11, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree that external links to fairs is not spam. Cynrin 16:41, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Links to fairs is not spam, but is outside the scope of the article and should not be allowed as it is promoting private businesses. The original festivals are listed. Other festivals can be, too, as examples of the widespread popularity of Renaissance Festivals, but that should be it. If a completel list of festivals isn't posted, then none should be. Bretblackshear 04:28, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] History

I added a picture from the Renaissance Pleasure Faire in Agoura c. 1986, but it's not the highest quality I can imagine. I'll see if I have any other 20-year-old photos that will survive digitizing, but if anyone has something more iconic, please replace this. I have a program from the 1970s somewhere... PKM 19:05, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Myths

There are several common myths and stereotypes about Renaissance Faires...

Oh, come on. Is this section nessesary? You would have to be a small child or a moron to think that people are actually being "harmed" at these commercial fairs via "real combat". 70.20.136.170 00:48, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

As an avid faire-goer, I have seen both small children and morons at Faires, including one lady that screamed in horror as a man in the stocks was "flogged" at a faire in Visalia, CA. This is just like any other warning; it's only there because someone was stupid enough to do it/try it/believe it. Highlander3751 01:46, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

The Myth section is completely uneccessary and puts forth the wrong idea and it is just not done. Bretblackshear 04:31, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree, and since nobody has touched it in the last three months, I have rewritten the section. It was overwritten and overly alarming. I think the new streamlined version cuts to the chase without losing anything vital. Artemis-Arethusa 17:58, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Images and Photos

I do not think that the image of a belly dancer inserted on May 22 adds to the article, so I removed it. First, there is already a picture of a belly dancer in the article. Second, the picture was not even of a belly dancer performing; it is just a woman in a costume walking down a street--there is no way of telling whether this is a performer or just a patron who showed up in costume.

There are million of pictures taken at Ren Fests over the course of a year and almost all of them should not be added to this article. I thought about inserting a picture of my husband in his new "Fool" costume (GA Ren Fest) but realized that there is already a picture of someone in a jester's costume so it would be too similar and not add to the article, only to my ego. Ergo, I decided not to include it. Cynrin 01:35, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

The posting of generic photos of typical goings on at a Renaissance festival is what is appropriate, NOT promotional or fan photos of groups with the specific group name listed below. The Lost Boys picture should be removed or the text changed to read "example of a Renaissance festival music group". My vote is for it to be removed lest passersby mistake The Lost Boys (a fun act, yes) to be a "typical" Renaissance festival music group. Bretblackshear 04:48, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

I removed a cluttered and confusing photo from the top of the article because it didn't seem as distinctive and clearly an example of the Renaissance Faire as the one below it, a great pic of an actress playing Mary, Queen of Scots in full tudor costume. That, I feel, is a better illustration to start the article with. Some paring down of the photos is probably in order, and as I note it's three months since anybody else said so, I'll do a bit. Artemis-Arethusa 18:05, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Notable Fairs Section Reads Like An Advertisement

If these fairs are individually Wiki-worthy, then they should have separate entries where their individual charms are discussed. Likewise, comments about the delights of your fair belong on your own websites, not in Wikipedia. I have edited the list to names of the fairs and brief descriptions. Artemis-Arethusa 17:49, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Overhaul

First off, cheers to Artemis-Arethusa for working so diligently on this page. As a whole, the page seems like a good attempt, but perhaps does not convey just what a Ren fair is as well as it could. In an attempt to bring up the quality of the page, I'm going to try to search around for citations and/or footnotes. As to the notable fairs, that part is a mess in itself. If they're so notable, shouldn't there be separate pages for each one?

Other than that, what else can/should be done? Ideas? — HelloAnnyong [ t · c ] 18:02, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Edit to my post - be careful of making claims on this next! Wiki articles need to be verifiable. I'm going to go through and either tag things with a fact template, or just rewrite/delete them altogether. — HelloAnnyong [ t · c ] 18:19, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Gosh, thanks. I've rewritten several sections, but the article overall still needs work. I sort of agree about the notable fairs section. Yet ... any number of Wikipedia articles also include lists of examples. Just a list, without any description, seems a bit austere, but maybe not. Anyway, if you think my edits do not go far enough, chop away. This article needs a lot of underbrush cleared out.

As for suggestions, I think the entire section currently labelled "Environment" would do well at the top of the article as a description of what a Renaissance fair is and is like. But it needs a good rewrite and some citation (And a renaming, maybe to "Characteristics" or some such). Then the history and derivation can be placed afterwards. Grousing about various aspects (authenticity, etc.) can be placed in a separate "Controversy" section at the end, rather than dampening the mood throughout the article. The overall tone sounds rather more like a description from an enthusiast trying to convince friends to visit (or from employees chatting to each other) rather than an encyclopedia article.

I have tried to tie in some of the more interesting historical and social developments that led to the modern Renaissance fair, as far as I can document them. As for references, I'm not familiar with one of the books cited (Peter Thomas and Richard J. Sneed, The Faire: Photographs and History of the Renaissance Pleasure Faire from 1963 onwards, The Good Book Press, 1987), but I note with some frustration that there doesn't seem to be much source material to cite. If ever there was a phenomenon screaming for a good sociological study, the American Renaissance fair is it. Artemis-Arethusa 20:04, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Oh the heck with it. I just removed everything from that list of fairs except their names. If they're notable, let them have their own Wiki pages where they can say what they like about their individual shows. Artemis-Arethusa 20:24, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Haha. I think the removal was the right thing to do. As for references, yeah, that's going to be a hard one to fill. I've been trying to look for articles on individual fairs, and see if they provide any sort of history as to fairs in general. I'll keep the search rolling... — HelloAnnyong [ t · c ] 22:14, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

I've done a search, and it appears there are no professional books on Renaissance fairs. I've found a few sites googling "renaissance fair history", but they seem unverifiable, bordering on gossip. Most of the articles I've found are of the "huzzah turkey legs" variety -- more advertising and good press than concrete information. Artemis-Arethusa 15:43, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Grr, so frustrating. None of the faires' websites list any sort of history beyond "Now in it's Xth year!" You'd think that, at the very least, the original faire's site would list something about them starting the trend. — HelloAnnyong [ t · c ] 16:00, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

I did find a dissertation! at the Digital Repository at Texas A&M (a real mouthful of a précis!), but somehow I don't think it will help. As for overhaul, I removed a long paragraph which was basically a list of some of the types of entertainer found at Ren fairs, with links to just about every type. However, I have placed some of those links in the "See also" section. I also removed some of the history of the (California) Renaissance Pleasure Faire. It really belongs in its own entry, not this general one. Artemis-Arethusa 00:16, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Photo/Image Wish List

I removed a picture of Robin Hood's Merry Men which was kind of so-so ... They were running off to the side of the picture, and it looked like the right half was missing. We could use some clear, iconic images for this article. There apparently was a nice jester pic for a while, but the reason it was so nice was that it was a copyrighted commercial image. Oops. We need copyright-free images, like people's own snapshots, if they're nice. One of the craftspersons at work, like a glassblower or smith, would be good. Also some of the mock-tudor architecture. And maybe a little more of the fancy costumes. What I'm thinking about is images which clearly convey what are seen as important parts of a Renaissance fair. Artemis-Arethusa 20:37, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Seconded. Good call removing that picture; it was sort of useless. Perhaps a better shot of that - from a different angle or something. Alas, we'd need more contributors to get some pictures up. — HelloAnnyong [ t · c ] 20:43, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

I just added one of my own photos from last year. Artemis-Arethusa 01:01, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

I have some photos that I'd be willing to release under a CC license, including a glassblower and some other "iconic" material. Coming soon. 168.9.120.8 (talk) 18:11, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] I Would Love Some References for The History of the Development of the Ren Fair

I've been trying to find my original reference for this, but no luck: I am pretty sure that the Renaissance fair as we understand it was actually originated in the time of Elizabeth I (and, to a lesser extent, of her father, Henry VIII) as a sort of pro-good-old-days propaganda. The legitimacy of the Tudor line was shaky despite Henry VII's usurpation and ruthless extermination of every twig of the Plantagenet tree, and religious wars had caused a lot of anxiety. Numerous tournaments and fairs were organised under Elizabeth to jolly up patriotism and good feeling -- Think about this: In Elizabeth's time, knights in armor jousting were almost two hundred years out of date. It was a deliberate nostalgia trip, even back then!

Regrettably, I can't find where I first ran across this, and lacking any good reference material, I must leave it out of the main article. I'll keep my eyes open.

Also, I'm pretty sure the Metropolitan Museum of Art was hosting jousts and Renaissance festivals in New York City in the 1950s, but I don't have any documentation on hand. Something about the Cloisters and early music records, and maybe John Langstaff too. Artemis-Arethusa 00:16, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Some notes on the situation in Europe

This article is very US-centric, and the few mentions of similar European events present them in a fabourable light most do not deserve. It is true, there are some rare historically accurate reenactments in Europe, often held in historical places. The more typical equivalent of a ren fair in Germany (at least) is called a de:Mittelaltermarkt here. Despite its name, it has only few things in common with a market held in the middle ages. Perhaps the name »Fantasy Fair« would be more accurate. This sort of events is sometimes ridiculed by the historians and reenactors, but usually defended as a fun thing by participants and regular visitors. It is quite usual for members of the LARP scene to show up there, dressed in fantasy clothes like Gondor military garb (as seen in the movies). I think US »ren fairs« are so much similar to this that I dare to set a link. --62.143.121.135 17:58, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] List of notable fairs

I think we need to come to a consensus on what determines a notable fair, as people keep adding to the list. I propose that a fair is notable if one of the following is true:

• Its attendance is over 100,000
• An article about it has been written and published in a notable media source

To informally check attendance, I use Renaissance Festival, though I sometimes question its reliability. What do you guys think? — HelloAnnyong [ t · c ] 05:06, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Additionally, what about festivals that have permanent, dedicated fairgrounds? Would this qualify as notable? 168.9.120.8 (talk) 18:11, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] biggest fair

which is the bigest, or most popular renaisance fair in america? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.105.134.113 (talk) 05:17, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Images available

MOST of the photographs in the gallery located at my old gallery were made by my; I will happily upload them and release them to the public domain UPON REQUEST. Photos depict festival scenery, employees, and demonstrations at the Georgia Renaissance Festival. If you would like to use these images on the article, please leave me a message at my talk page.

I would go ahead and upload them for posting, but I'm not sure where they should go; I wish neither to overcrowd the article page nor to vainly replace another user's photos with my own. Please remember to ask permission to use specific photos! Aylad (talk) 01:02, 26 April 2008 (UTC)