Talk:Remembrance Day

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[edit] Earlier discussion

This is not a correct sentence:

"(possibly upon the suggestion of Edward George Honey though Wellesley Tudor Pole, who established two ceremonial periods of remembrance based on events in 1917).[1][2]"

Either "though" should actually be "through", or the sentence is missing something, or ", who" should be deleted.

02:37, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure it is Veterans day in the UK - I'm pretty certain it's Remembrance day or Armistice day. Certainly, it has always been Armistice day to me. What do other Brits think?

Remembrance Day. We don't have a Veterans Day in the UK (though this may change in the future) --mgaved 22:56, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] One big article

I say Armistince day, poppy day, rememberance day and veterans day all be merged into one article with different sections for each. Its all the same.

I disagree: In the context of Canada, Remembrance Day is an official Holiday. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.215.105.187 (talk) 18:41, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Older comment

"In South Africa, the day is not a public holiday. Commemoration ceremonies are usually held on the following Sunday, at which, as with Australia, the Last Post is played by a bugler followed by the observation of a two-minute silence."

It is also the custom in Britain. Last Post; silence; Reveille. Will add stuff.

[edit] Merge

After the Second World War, the name and date of Armistice Day was changed to  
Remembrance Day, now to be observed on the Sunday prior to 11 November (it was later 
transferred to the second Sunday in November). 

Since the 1990s the United Kingdom and many countries of the Commonwealth have 
increasingly returned to commemorate Armistice Day 11 November because the "eleventh 
hour of the eleventh day of the eleventh month" 

[edit] Poppy Day

Stephen Clarke (Official Historian, Royal New Zealand Returned and Services' Association):

I would prefer to see a separate article for "Poppy Day" rather than redirected to Remembrnace Day because Poppy Day in New Zealand, while it has similar origins to that of the United Kingdon, Canada, Unites States of America and Australia, was from the first Poppy Day in 1922 associated with ANZAC Day in April, which it continues to be associated usually being held on the Friday prior to ANZAC Day (25 April).

I understand that the Veterans of Foreign Wars in the United States which run the Buddy Poppy Appeal is mostly associated with Memorial Day in May.

[edit] Sentence about payment

I've removed this from the article:

"(Typically, these artificial poppies are given freely, though nearly all who accept them offer a small donation in return. One dollar is common in Canada.)"

This isn't true in the U.K.; I don't know about other countries. Here, the poppies are definitely sold. Is the "given away" a fiction in order to escape some legal issue? --Phronima 11:45, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

In the UK in the main, the poppies are given in exchange for VOLUNTARY donations. You CAN "buy" some more exotic types, with a percentage of the profits going to the relevant charities stated. This year (2007) Health and Safety issues have led to changes where the "street" poppies have now NOT to be supplied with the traditional integral pin, but with a flexible PLASTIC stem, and a seperate pin which may or may not be taken. This seems a little ironic, given that the people who are supposed to be benefitting had more than small pins used to endanger their lives during assorted conflicts around the world. 193.130.128.2 09:25, 11 November 2007 (UTC) Lance Tyrell

In my experience, in Northern Ireland for the past 30 years, and in England for the past 10 years, the poppies have had a plastic stem and separate pin. Though I think there was something in the media about poppy collectors being advised not to pin the poppy on to anyone in case of injury! (Can't vouch for this story) 84.65.203.33 23:24, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Well they're not really 'sold' in the UK, but given in exchange for a voluntary donation of any amount you feel comfortable with. Some people only add a few pence, others add pounds. I'm sure a few people pay nothing, if they're brave enough. Skittle 00:00, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

the removed statement is true about Canada.--Adam crymble 19:24, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

In Canada, Poppies are given away freely, with the expectation of a voluntary donation. They're not "sold" here either. Perfect Proposal ^{Speak out loud!} 01:41, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

In Canada, a few weeks before Remembrance Day old folks and cadets start showing up around commercial centres, holding little boxes full of artificial poppies. These poppies are distributed by the Royal Canadian Legion, who also solict them to store owners to leave on their counters, most of whom it seems agree. These boxes have a large space for poppies in the front, and a small change box in the back. Now, I'd assume that no one would call the police were you to just take one of these poppies. However, the large majority of people make a donation of their choice, which goes towards the Royal Canadian Legion, a society of war veterans and their families. Also, perhaps it should be noted, at least in the Greater Toronto Area, some people make a point of stealing these donation boxes, much to the dismay of decent people everywhere. So yes, the above statement about Canada is true, they can be distributed freely, though this is not a general practice as most people donate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.36.2.26 (talk) 16:39, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] People Against Global Imperialism

This article, and White Poppy (at least) have similar or identical sentences referring to this organization, which is not linked to its own article. Further, Google returns only 32 hits. I suggest this organization is not notable enough for a mention here or in White Poppy. It was added by darrelljon (talk • contribs • count) as can be seen here I suggest a cite, or failing that, a removal. ++Lar: t/c 14:30, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

It seems like someone deliberately screwed up a sentence towards the end of the introduction.

"It is observed on You idiot Bobby Joeend"

Sorry, I don't have much experience editing Wiki articles, so I'll let someone else take the lead....

210.231.194.34 06:03, 20 September 2006 (UTC)hotchailatte

[edit] Celebration

Is "celebration" the right word to use in this context? It features throughout the article, no doubt to avoid repetition of the seemingly more appropriate verb "to commemorate". Whilst it could be said that we celebrate the end of hostilities on Armistice Day, the contemporary focus of these days around the globe is to invite reflection on a tragic loss of life, not really a cause for celebration. Perhaps someone with a wider vocabulary than I could take this on... Dick G 12:54, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

The only places I can find words containing 'celebr' refer to Veterans' Day in America and various festivals in other countries that fall at the same time. Is Veterans' Day celebrated or observed? Skittle 13:12, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

It concerned me that "celebration" is the wrong term as well. I've taken the liberty of changing the wording from "Veterans Day is celebrated in the United States" to "Veterans Day is commemorated in the United States" - how do people feel about this? Any USians care to coment? what do you do on this day? --mgaved 17:59, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Terry Kelly?

Why is there a long two-three paragraphs about Terry Kelly? I would think this is an advertisement for Kelly's song, rather than having any real significant impact to Remembrance Day itself. It should not be in the article. --WongFeiHung 20:46, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Dates

Why are the dates in US format (month/day) instead of the UK format (day/month) as this is a UK event?

No, it isnt a UK event. Have you even read the article? --Dallin Tanjo22 22:55, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Right, so why does it use the US format when the UK, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, Malta and the rest of the commonwealth counties all use the day/month format?

I linked the dates so they autoformat for the reader--Kelapstick 19:15, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Poppy Style????????????

In England, Wales, Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland the poppies are the flat Earl Haig variety with a leaf. Wearers require a separate pin to attach the poppy to their clothing.

What about Scotland? I am sure in Scotland the poopies are identical to the rest of the country! So why not change

In England, Wales, Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland the poppies... to In the United Kingdom and the Republic of Ireland the poppies... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.213.213.9 (talk • contribs)

I think what is being referred to is that in Scotland many poppies are this style , which is more symmetrical in shape to this (used in the rest of the UK and RoI) which has one half of the flower slightly bigger than the other, if you see what I mean? i.e. they are not the same in scotland. « Keith » 16:28, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bugle Calls

The Rouse is often played in place of Reveille in remembrance day ceremonies, but is often called "Reveille". I have added a sentence to this end, and have added a wikipedia article on The Rouse to clear up any confusion.

[edit] Poppy

I have a question that I am hoping someone can help me with. I live in Canada and seem to remember that after 11:00 on November 11th, you are to remove your poppy out of respect for the fallen soldiers. Can anyone tell me if this is true?

hello

   Yes it is 100% true. In fact I just added a blurb on this before I read this talk entry.

[edit] Not a "holiday"

The lead in para refers to RD as a "holiday" - it is isn't.--ukexpat 01:05, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Removed paragraph

I removed this uncited account of the origin of Remembrance day, which also gives a 'meaning' to the two different minutes. I might add bits back if I can find sources for them, but I couldn't right now and it seemed odd (and at odds with other bits of the article).

"The first minute of the two minutes of silence it to remember those who have died in battle, the second minute is to remember those who are still fighting. The two minutes of silence originated in South Africa during the last German offensive in 1918 when a bishop in Cape Town suggested a daily prayer to remember those fighting and those killed. This prayer was done daily. A couple weeks later, someone observed this and wired a description of it to London where spread throughout England and the rest of the world."

Also, we're getting a lot of petty vandalism (in the way of removals of random words and additions of stupid words) in the run-up to the day itself, so probably a good idea to keep an eye on the article over the next month. Skittle 15:50, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

According to The BBC,

"In a letter published in the London Evening News on 8 May 1919, an Australian journalist, Edward George Honey, proposed a respectful silence to remember those who had given their lives in the First World War. This was brought to the attention of King George V and on 7 November 1919, the King issued a proclamation which called for a two minute silence:

"All locomotion should cease, so that, in perfect stillness, the thoughts of everyone may be concentrated on reverent remembrance of the glorious dead."

According to the Australian Government,

"On the first anniversary of the armistice, 11 November 1919, the two minutes’ silence was instituted as part of the main commemorative ceremony at the new Cenotaph in London. The silence was proposed by an Australian journalist working in Fleet Street, Edward Honey. At about the same time, a South African statesman made a similar proposal to the British Cabinet, which endorsed it. King George V personally requested all the people of the British Empire to suspend normal activities for two minutes on the hour of the armistice "which stayed the world wide carnage of the four preceding years and marked the victory of Right and Freedom." The two minutes’ silence was popularly adopted and it became a central feature of commemorations on Armistice Day."

This at least gives an idea of what the removed section was talking about (the 'someone' probably being the un-named 'statesman' in the above source).

This is all I can find that seems vaguely reliable in the internet. I suppose I shall have to find some books *gasp* on the subject, since this could make an interesting section... Skittle 16:01, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] British terminology

Speaking as a Briton who has lived in the UK virtually his entire life, I feel it is factually inaccurate to claim that we make reference to 'Remembrance Day'. I have never heard this term used, save perhaps when considering Remembrance Sunday and the universal term I have encountered here is Armistice Day.--Breadandcheese 12:04, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

You can't get much more British than the BBC

Originally called Armistice Day, it commemorated the end of hostilities the previous year. .....After the end of the Second World War in 1945 Armistice Day became Remembrance Day to include all those who had fallen in the two World Wars and later conflicts.[1].

Maybe some people have a very long memory as it changed in 1945. Actually as a kid in the 60s we probably called it Poppy Day as a informal designation, and maybe my mother born in 1926 called it Armistice Day, probably as her father who server in WWI called it that. Otherwise in my experience the official terminology "Remembrance Day" for 11/11 is widely used. In any case we would need a WP:V source rather than our own observations to show the official terminology is not always used. Billlion 08:23, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

I am also a Brit who has lived here nearly all my life. I have always thought that 11 November was Armistice Day (this does get discussed because it is also my wedding anniversary) and that the Sunday was Remembrance Sunday. Not until seeing this article this evening (my son had it open while researching for homework) have I ever heard either called "Remembrance Day". I have a recollection of the Sunday being called Poppy Day when I was a child (in the 1960s), but I assumed that was just a diminutive used by my parents for the benefit of us children. Dommar 20:34, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

It could be that the official usage, for example by the armed services, government and British legion, Remembrance day for 11/11, is not always what ordinary people call it. But we would need to find some verifiable sources that support this. Perhaps UK newspapers still calling it Armistice day, or commenting on the different usage. Anyone found anything?Billlion 21:11, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Actually already found some

1. Worcester News "Police will stop Armistice Day traffic"
2. iccoventry Remembrance Day: Lest we forget...Nov 8 2007 By Barbara Goulden PARADES for Remembrance Sunday....The town's world-famous Armistice Day parade will not take place this year. Whenever Armistice Day falls on Remembrance Sunday, parade organisers in Bedworth stand aside and leave the day's events to the Royal British Legion. seems to support both usages but the "Armistice Day Parade" may specifically have kept its name.
3. CBBC News 11/11/2006 UK silence marks Armistice Day. Millions of people across the UK have taken part in a silence at 11am to remember people who died in wars. For two-minutes people stopped what they were doing to think about those who died as part of Armistice Day. So there the BBC is calling it Armistice day. On a linked page [2] The second Sunday of November is Remembrance Sunday, also known as Remembrance Day. And on [3]What is Armistice Day? Armistice Day is on 11 November

So I think I have to say I stand corrected, 11th Nov as Armistice day is still widely used in the media even by the BBC. Anyone feel like updating the aaricle. Also I think Dommar is right. It is the Sunday more likely to be Poppy day as that is when we left them at the war memorial Billlion 21:39, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Despite the name difference, it seems to me this could still be merged with Remembrance Sunday. --Padraic 23:04, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree Padraic (see my comment above under "merge"). In 2007 11 November was a Sunday which highlights the artificiality of having separate pages. I hadn't realised how vague we all are about the terminology until I read these articles. In the last 30-odd years in Northern Ireland I've only heard the word Armistice Day occasionally. We always said "Remembrance Sunday" (for the Sunday) and "Remembrance Day" or "the 11th of November" (for Armistice Day). I called today "Remembrance Day" but maybe that was because it's also 11th November. Even in primary school in the 80s we stood to attention for a minute (or was it two?) on 11th November, but I think doing that on Armistice Day had become less common in England until recently 84.65.203.33 23:48, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

To me, this discussion suggests that perhaps there should be no merger, but separate articles for the celebrations that occur in various countries. I don't know. There are clear similarities, but ovbiously different traditions and terminology. The difficulty of merging this article with Armistice Day or Remembrance Sunday is that a merge might make sense from the perspective of one country, but not really make sense to someone from another country. In any event, this discussion has been going around in circles for three years now, and we are not even close to consensus. Skeezix1000 (talk) 22:15, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Participation by royal family in Canadian Remembrance Day

The section on Canada is ambiguous as to how often members of the royal family are present for Canadian ceremonies; when un-addressed, this could give the impression that this is a regular occurrence, when in fact, it is incredibly rare. Does anybody have a number for how many times a royal has been around? --Padraic 16:35, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Members of the royal family have laid wreaths at the national war memorial, as recently as the Queen's Golden Jubilee tour of Canada in 2002. I've looked in vain to see whether or not a member of the royal family has laid the wreath specifically on Remembrance Day; but the protocol would be that the sovereign would lay the wreath instead of the Governor General, and I assume another member of the royal family would lay a wreath either alongside the GG or after the GG and before the Prime Minister. fishhead64 (talk) 03:13, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

If there isn't a source confirming the Royal Family have ever been present for the ceremony, I think the section could use a little re-wording to reflect that. --Padraic 21:52, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Well, it's a minor point - but since the section describes the protocol in the event a member of the Royal Family is present, I think alluding to the fact that they may never actually have been present on Remembrance Day is a little superfluous. But I won't die in the ditch over it. fishhead64 (talk) 23:56, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

I agree it's minor -- I just think as written, it would give the impression (especially to a non-Canadian reader) that this is a common occurence. I'll try for a non-instrusive edit. --Padraic 04:03, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Yom Hazikaron

Just a Question: Should the Israeli day of remembrance be included in this article? Oren neu dag (talk) 14:53, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

No it is not on the same day as the one in this article. It seems that there might be a case for a category, or a list of remembrance days for war dead, or something like that, so various ones can be linked together.Billlion (talk) 17:15, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Day off in Schools ?

I seem to remember having the day off for Rememberance Day when I was a child. I attended French Catholic School. Am I just imagining this or was the day considered an official holiday and somewhere along the way, it changed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.10.145.135 (talk) 02:05, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Poppy.gif

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BetacommandBot (talk) 12:41, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Hong Kong

I remember both anniversary of the liberation of Hong Kong and the Remembrance Day, before 1997, were both had events near to the Cenotaph, but former was a holiday. I am going to find source to write it.

Small Unoffical events were held since 1997. Matthew_hk tc 13:13, 3 February 2008 (UTC)