Wikipedia talk:Reliable source examples

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[edit] Thoughts

I've added a header about statistical data and puched the advice about electronic sources down the page, it's probably more useful to talk about subjects, then use the online advice to close off. I've tried to make the electronic source stuff a little punchier and more readable.

We could do with slimmming down the various sections as they're quite verbose and text dense, not helping readability. I can have a hack at the science stuff but it's a bit US centric, I'll try to come up with some business related stuff, but that risks being UK centric. Someone with some knowledge could usefully hack the history and law sections.

ALR 19:55, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] This is excellent

I feel like this proposed guideline is excellent, especially the section on avoiding citing the popular press. I used this guideline to support a point I was making, but another editor shot it down, saying that since this is a proposed guideline it can't be used to judge the validity of evidence in an article. Is that the case? If so, any idea when it will become official? Thanks!TimidGuy 12:41, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

This was never intended to be a proposed guideline... it should be considered a sub-page of WP:RS (which is already a guideline). It was designed to assist the editor in interpreting that guideline as it relates to specific topic areas, by giving examples of things that are considered reliable and unreliable... hence the name... "Reliable sources/examples" Blueboar 13:38, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
Thanks, Blueboar. I wonder if this will be lost with the merger of wp:rs into wp:att. TimidGuy 16:58, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Inactive?

Why is this page labled inactive? WP:RS is still an active guideline, and this page is simply a subpage of that active guideline... designed to give examples as they relate to specific topic areas. It was never supposed to be a guideline on its own, but a further resource tied to WP:RS. Blueboar 13:22, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] proposed

The status of this - quite useful - page is unclear. I have added 'proposed' tag to confirm in the coming week this is acceptable extension of WP:RS by the community. Please also note that per my comments here and in places linked there, WP:ATT FAQ addresses some of the similiar issues, some form of merger could be considered.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  17:29, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Removed the proposed tag. It's more useful for pages you would like to see marked {{rejected}}. ;-) Otherwise I'm fine with it... let's see, didn't we have a clarification tag? --Kim Bruning 18:12, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
Look at the history of this page and WP:RS: this subpage was created because the examples section of WP:RS was getting too big, along the lines of the recommendations in WP:SUMMARY. Anomie 19:10, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
I missed that, thanks. So I guess the big thing is now how to merge it with the above part of WP:ATTFAQ; the concern the same thing and should be found in one place, I think. As much controversy as ATT has caused, I don't think that particular section was disputed by anybody...-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  00:45, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] From RS

The following has been removed from main RS page, as there was no consensus on examples nor on their place in the main guideline. Please discuss them below and introduce to the main body if consensus is reached.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  13:21, 11 July 2007 (UTC)


  • Urban Dictionary, as anyone can add entries to it and they are not moderated or edited further;
  • Google search results should never be cited in articles; they may, however, be useful in discussions about articles, on the talk page, in a deletion debate or elsewhere;
  • The Bible, Koran, Tanach and similar holy books are not reliable sources on history or science but are reliable sources on their respective religion and related subjects;
  • Primary sources are very reliable when it comes to general information about the subject (e.g. where an organisation is seated), but not reliable at all when it comes to opinions (e.g. "it was an enormous hit"). Articles that rely solely on primary sources also require a secondary reliable source.
  • Apparently "scientific information" on commercial websites which are in fact advertisements, especially with medicines and related things ("pseudo-science");
  • IMDB for anything more than basic info, as, like wikis, it is user-created and edited (see also Wikipedia:IMDb for examples on where it is appropriate);
  • Personal web sites and blogs, social networking sites (such as MySpace), and discussion forums;
  • Usenet and IRC postings;
  • SparkNotes should be avoided, as more reliable and scholarly sources can usually be found.

[edit] Film credits on IMDb

"One exception being that film credits on IMDb, which are provided by the Writer's Guild of America, can be considered to be adequately reliable."

No. Absolutely not. The WGA does not provide film credits for non-American films and does not provide film credits for movies made before a certain date. Many earlier films especially don't have complete credits - some notable silent films have no credits at all!

It would be more accurate to say, "One exception being that film credits on IMDb from current United States films, which are provided by the Writer's Guild of America, can be considered to be adequately reliable. Credits on historic films (especially those released before 1945) and films produced outside the United States may not be complete or accurate." --Charlene 16:36, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Book reviews

What about book reviews? The Jade Knight 07:37, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Commercial vs non-commercial journals

I'm troubled by the sentence "In general, journals published by prominent scientific societies are of better quality than those produced by commercial publishers." It's not true in the fields that I'm familiar with, so I wonder what is the justification for this statement. Raymond Arritt 02:47, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Feel free to remove it, Raymond. There's a lot on this page that isn't right. By all means clean it up to whatever extent you'd like, though bear in mind that it's not a guideline, so it has no force anyway. SlimVirgin (talk)(contribs) 06:19, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
OK, I'll clean it up a bit. In my experience most editors don't recognize the difference between a policy and a guideline, so it's best to keep the guidelines in shape. Raymond Arritt 14:23, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sites that Copy Articles from Wiki

There are some websites that copy all the articles on Wikipedia and host them on their website. While it is obvious from the common sense clause in WP:RS that these would not be RS, I have come across editors who want to use these as RS. I think this article should explicitly add that these types of sites are not RS.----DarkTea 05:46, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Wayback Machine

I deleted the recently added reference to the Wayback Machine. It's a useful resource, but it didn't seem to serve the purpose of this article -- which, as I understand it, is intended to be instructive about reliability of sources.

Regarding the recently added items about PubMed:and PLoS; they may indeed be reliable but again I wonder if they're instructive. PLoS could be instructive as an example of peer-reviewed web content. Both seem wrongly located in this section on "Use of electronic or online sources". Seems like they could go in the science section. TimidGuy 16:06, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Since no discussion or objection, I'll move PubMed and retain PLoS, but will add an instructive comment. Then will get feedback from DGG (MLS, Ph.D) whether he agrees PLoS is a good example. TimidGuy 16:17, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

I adjusted the wording a little to make clear that it applies only to material formally published in journals. PLoS is the best known, but I will add 1 or 2 more. I also revised the statement about PubMed, which is only an indexing service, not a guarantee of quality, and listed the traditional 4 top medical journals. I also revised the statement about quality of journals; Cell is more specialized than Science and Nature and needs to be listed differently.
Thanks for reminding me about this--I have some more things to think about. DGG (talk) 17:50, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
Thanks so much, DGG. I really appreciate your input on this. TimidGuy 19:19, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
Pubmed is certainly a scientific resource but it is also certainly on the web. I guess this is where you have to choose between categorisations? The wayback machine is source you want to reference if you'd like to cite certain revision of a website.
What I'm trying to do right now is find more and more examples of reliable online resources.--Kim Bruning 19:06, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
Thanks, Kim. I don't think we want to try to create an extensive list of reliable online sources. Anything added here should be instructive regarding the reliability of a general category of online sources. TimidGuy 19:18, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
*Nod* if I wanted to make an exhaustive list, I'd just make a new wikipage. What's going on here is that there seems to be this bias towards treating all online sources as unreliable, which I think is not the most useful approach? --Kim Bruning 11:17, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
Yes, there's a definite bias against online sources in Wikipedia guidelines and policies. This is because much web content is self-published, with no editorial oversight or peer review. I think the policies and guidelines do a fairly good job of explaining this stance and in articulating the kinds of online sources that are acceptable and in what contexts. TimidGuy 14:54, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
Of course, some network content is not reliable, so it's nice that we keep that out. Now here's some other network based content which is quite reliable, so it wouldn't be very nice if we kept that out, especially if we were to discard it in favor of less reliable sources. Inevitably, the quality and quantity of online sources has been rapidly improving over time, while the quality and quantity of traditional paper and broadcast sources has remained roughly the same (or may in fact have declined). Even if your claim is true, and in the unlikely event that current guidelines are absolutely perfect at this moment in time, I would still recommend keeping a close eye on this issue, so as to keep the guidelines in step as the rest of the world changes around us. --Kim Bruning 16:25, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
The current guidelines and policies make the mistake of tarnishing all "blogs" as unreliable sources. There is a huge difference between a self-published, personal blog (unreliable for most uses) and a "blog" that is actually an online magazine with professional writers and editorial staff. For certain topics, especially those in technology, many periodicals publish online only. Who'd needs paper, because it's just an unnecessary expense. Paper doesn't magically create truth. I think we need to fix WP:RS, WP:SPS and WP:V to remove bias against online media, and focus on the real issues. Does the source have editorial supervision? Is there fact checking? Does the source have a reputation for accuracy? - Jehochman Talk 03:15, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] What about biology?

According to the Wikipedia, biological sciences are not included in physical sciences. And, there is a desciption for "physical sciences, mathematics and medicine, but no biological sciences." Is there any intention for that?

Much of the content of that section also applies to biological sciences -- such as the examples of journals such as Cell, Science, and Nature. We could, I guess, alter the heading to include biological sciences. TimidGuy 19:22, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sources vs. links

User:Tenebrae is claiming that due to this page, we shouldn't even link to other Wikis (eg, not providing a Wookieepedia link on a Star Wars character page). I and several others, meanwhile, say it's fine to put another Wiki in a link as part of an "External Links" section as long as you don't try and use it as an actual source. Who's right here? Thanos6 04:04, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Please noted that the external Wiki we've been discussing, the Marvel Database Project, has been
  • removed as linkspam by many editors,
  • was the subject of lengthy discussion at the talk page of the MDP's creator (User talk:JamieHari#DC Database link at Batman), and
  • was placed throughout WikiProject Comics by that site creator self-promotionally to drive traffic to it.
Additionally, "Marvel Database Project" itself was twice considered non-notable as an article topic, and deleted per Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Marvel Database Project (second nomination). --Tenebrae 04:22, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
Does it matter who put something there? Just like a scientific fact remains a scientific fact regardless of who states it. Thanos6 04:28, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
It does matter, see WP:COI. I suggest you take the discussion to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Comics. Anomie 13:11, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
Indeed it does matter - there are a couple of issues at work here - the big one being that the owner of the site can't link to it (that is really a rule with no wiggle room) and that wikis cannot be considered a reliable source. It is the latter which, I must assume, is the reason we are here and to force it through you'd need to overturn a rather large plank of policy and, as it would be a bad idea, I don't think it can fly. As the above comments suggest - this isn't really the place for such a broad ranging discussion. There is a section on the Comics Project talk page if you want to address the other issues. (Emperor 02:59, 2 September 2007 (UTC))


[edit] Popular press

I have been looking at the section "Science article in the popular press". It suggests that the academic literature is preferred over magazine sources. I have been thinking about updating the section to make it clear that books and articles written by a commentator can validly be used as sources on the views of that commentator (even views about science studies and science). Would anyone object to a change like that? I would like to know that such a change would fit with the consensus, given that this page is related to policy. Eiler7 23:19, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

If it's in an article about the commentator, that should already be covered by WP:SPS. If it's in an article about the science, it's not particularly often that the views of a particular commentator are relevant; when they are relevant the article will probably say something like "Joe Commentator states X" and the "permission" to cite the source that way would IMO be more appropriate added to WP:SPS rather than here. Anomie 02:58, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
Yes, I want the article to say "Joe Commentator states X". However, at present, this policy page says that the academic literature is preferred. WP:NPOV says that all significant views should be covered. As it stands, this policy page allows people to object to certain views that are not sourced to the academic literature which is not, I believe, the way we should operate. To give some more context to my query, the commentator I have in mind is James Randi and he writes about alternative medicine. I think it can be legitimate to include his views despite not being in the academic literature. Eiler7 20:52, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
The page says academic literature is preferred for sourcing experimental results. A person's commentary on a scientific topic isn't experimental results. The only obstacles are whether James Randi's writings are relevant to the article's topic and the criteria in WP:SPS. Anomie 21:47, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
Well, this is a borderline case. Randi is claiming that a particular conclusion about TM is not true and pointing out that a replication attempt did not find it to be true. That seems like a significant viewpoint but it also relates directly to an experiment (the replication). I cannot tell from the current text whether Randi's view would be allowed or not. So I would like to update the text. Eiler7 11:57, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
Still seems clear enough to me with existing policies. Your quote isn't being used to cite results as fact, it's stating what this one (biased?) guy believes. So unless you're trying to distort the context to make it sound like the guy is reporting established fact rather than his own views… Anomie 16:49, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
Here [1] is the change I did. Could you look over it and comment? I will be changing it to say "Randi reported that an investigation by Royal College of Surgeons experiments had been" and other making other similar changes but the diff captures the essence of what I want to do. Eiler7 21:09, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
I see, you are trying to use the guy as a source for more than just his views on the matter. I also see issues with WP:WEIGHT and WP:CITE, and I suspect there is some weight to the claims on the talk page that more research has been done in the 25 years since that book has been written. Anomie 22:50, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
No, I am careful not to go beyond his views. All the text is essentially from his book. His view, as stated in the book, is that replications have been done and failed. As it stands, the casual reader might assume that the pro-TM research is all valid. I wish to add a skeptical view. If you have specific ideas on how to make it clear that all I am adding is Randi's view, I would be interested. Perhaps it would be sufficient to have something like "notable commentators have expressed doubts about the validity of pro-TM research, including James Randi" and make "James Randi" a wikilink. Eiler7 22:23, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
Take it to the article's talk page. Anomie 02:34, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Are newspapers reliable?

Are newspapers and other news sources reliable? Nurg (talk) 22:56, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

For what? Raymond Arritt (talk) 02:02, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
As a source of info for Wikipedia articles. Nurg (talk) 04:43, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
It depends -- on the subject matter of the article, the reliability of the newspaper, and so on. It's impossible to give a yes-or-no answer. Raymond Arritt (talk) 05:07, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
For example for history topic? --Ruziklan (talk) 13:01, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Change in status

On the basis of ongoing conversations at WP:RS regarding the merger of guidelines, and following on a suggestion at the VP [2], I have Boldly changed this to an essay, which I think represents most closely the current actual status. DGG (talk) 00:30, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

The three-day discussion at the Village Pump by, I believe, just three editors, did not make any mention whatsoever of the propriety of allowing third-party wikia and blogs to be used as reference sources. The policy that one editor linked to, at Wikipedia:Verifiability#Reliable sources also did not.
I could find no place else, other than this page, that specifically disallows the use of third-party wikia, blogs, and other wildly inappropriate sources of reliable, credible, authoritative, factual reference. I'm not an admin like DCG, but please, please, let us not throw out the baby with the bathwater. We cannot not address the issue of third-party wikia, blogs, etc. as reliable references, can we? --Tenebrae (talk) 23:58, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
this has been discussed repeated in the RS noticeboard archives, and there seems to be no generally agreed rule, except they are not usually allowed, except for some exceptional situations where they are regarded as the customary and most reliable sources and supervised with editorial control. (By experience at AfD, this is accepted most frequently with respect to some computer and SF topics and only for certain particular well-known sources; the application to politics and pseudoscience is considerably more doubtful). The degree to which they are allowed is a matter that at this point has to be discussed case by case. I don't think we really have a basis yet for establishing a more solid guideline on this. Personally, my take is that this sort of source will become increasing the accepted means of communication even in the academic world, and we will have to come to terms with it. Admins do not set policy by the way, just try to enforce what the community agrees is policy. You have as much voice as me in trying to establish something. Possibly this could be a separate issue, but in practice i think we first need to discuss more individual cases at the noticeboard and AfD to figure out what we want to do. But I suggest that starting off by saying "wildly appropriate" sort of begs the issue--everyone will agree 100% that those that are inappropriate cannot be used. DGG (talk) 00:15, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
Appreciate the input and discussion. Another user, User:Francis Schonken, has twice reverted without any discussion, and when I pointed him to this discussion, he said in an edit summary this discussion doesn't exist. ("Recent talk page discussion does not address 'essay' status")
I'm glad to hear it's non-controversial and everyone will agree 100% that third-party wikia,forum postings and blogs (except those of the subject him/herself) can't be used. Would it be possible for us to state this somewhere on a policy page?
The reason I ask is that a lot of people do insert them, and I've always been able to guide them here where they could read for themselves not to insert them. But now, I can't find anywhere in the policies that actually says this. Am I just missing where it is, or is there no longer a formal policy about blogs, forum, etc.? I need a knowledgeable editor's help on what to do now. Thanks for any.--Tenebrae (talk) 01:02, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
that's not what I said. I said is is non-controversial that those blogs etc "that are inappropriate" cannot be used In my view, and that of many others, some are appropriate, if they are the best sources available. Which ones are, and which aren't, does not in my opinion have consensus. I personally would accept a pretty wide range in some subjects, but I'm not sure everyone would. The reason there's no formal policy is in some part because we don't agree on one. DGG (talk) 06:03, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Popular culture and fiction section

This section should demand the same high standards for scholarship as the other sections and direct editors to databases such as JSTOR and MLA. If those fail, then they can turn to reviews and DVD commentaries. However, we should not begin with the assumption that there is no scholarship on these topics (particularly "fiction"!). Some material I wrote up a while ago for the novel project that might be helpful here: Wikipedia:WikiProject Novels/Style guidelines#Major themes. Awadewit | talk 08:09, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Proposal for new sub section "Are search engines or mirrors reliable sources?"

At first glance this would seem self evident, but my recent discovery of the mirror Reference.com used as an external link/ reference leads me to suggest it should noted here. I am fairly sure we have all seen at least one article with Google search results listed to support some argument or "fact" in the articles main space. I was rather surprised to find the entry was not already here.

"Are search engines or mirrors reliable sources?"
No, search engines and Mirrors can never be reliable sources per WP:SOURCES "Articles should rely on reliable, third-party published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy". A search engine or mirror has no control over the addition of content of the articles nor do they have the ability to gain a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy on content that they do not control.

I am sure there are many editors here who can and will improve on the wording I have suggested. Jeepday (talk) 22:38, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

the results of a search engine for a person's papers or similar matters can be a convenient source, but it really should have the key results copied over. The results of an appropriate search engine query can sometime document a numerical value, as the number of library holdings or the number of entries of a certain type in a database. And there are some bibliographic sources that for technical reasons cannot be cited in any other manner. Obviously great care must be used, so it will need some thought on the wording. DGG (talk) 00:18, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Financial markets

re: Black Monday (January 2008). It's extremely debateable whether January 21 has any special significance in financial market history, or more to the point deserves an article in Wikipedia. Much of the problem comes from the sources, e.g. the Scotsman, Al Jezerah, AP via an Omaha TV station, a Toronto general (not financial) news commentator, etc. Sources like the Wall Street Journal, the Financial Times, the Economist never called it "Black Monday" or suggested it was a "melt-down" or any nonsense like that.

One thing I would like to make sure of is that, when a headline (such as "Black Monday") is not repeated in the text of the article, then I don't think it should be considered as being from a reliable source.

Would it be ok if I suggest a "Financial news" heading, with text stating that WSJ, FT, Economist, etc are considered to be reliable sources for financial news, but that Al Jezerah, Omaha TV, are not?

Smallbones (talk) 22:00, 13 April 2008 (UTC)


[edit] Reliability of Interviews

I have bit of a conundrum with an article deletion but I think there is a broader issue that I can't really get settled: Are interviews of a subject by a third-party reliable sources? Do they establish notability? My inclination is that as a source this is equivalent to a self-published work.

An interview is composed primarily of the words of the subject. They are not edited or reviewed by the interviewer. So if CNN airs an interview with John Smith, is what he say a reliable source? Is he notable for having been interviewed by CNN?

As opposed to journalist conducting an interview as research for an article, where they will corroborate information from other sources, fact check, and have others follow-up and fact-check.

In an interview, we hear it straight from the subject... does the reliability of the interviewer attach? --Marcinjeske (talk) 00:53, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

an interview in most news media is normally a collaborative creative work by the interviewer--the interviewer directs the conversation; the art is to direct it informatively and interesting, and the perversion of the art is to direct it misleadingly, and manoeuver the subject into expressing things otherwise than he really intends them. Some interviews, indeed, give the subject free play to expand at length, and just serve as a framework. I think that';s pretty rare in video media, and not that common in print either. DGG (talk) 03:55, 8 May 2008 (UTC)