Talk:Religious emblems programs (Boy Scouts of America)

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To-do list for Religious emblems programs (Boy Scouts of America): edit · history · watch · refresh

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    Monitor the development of a program for the Native American Church

    Contents

    [edit] Shinto

    Was there not at some point a Shinto religious award? I remember it in my handbook. Chris 22:35, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

    I checked the Handbooks back through the 70s and don't see a reference. Shinto is on the religions calendar on the BSA site [1], but that's the only reference. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 02:34, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

    [edit] Improvements

    This is going to be one of my next projects in a few weeks. Here are some of my thoughts:

    • Probably a name change: Religious emblems of the Boy Scouts of America; Religious recognitions of the Boy Scouts of America or something similar
    • Clean up this list done
    • Round up and merge some stub articles such as Friends Committee on Scouting not here- it should merge into Religious Emblems Programs

    --Gadget850 ( Ed) 17:57, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

    Table format? done

    Faith Cub Scout Webelos Scout Boy Scout
    Varsity Scout    		 Venturer
    Boy Scout
    Varsity Scout    		 Adult
    African Methodist Episcopal God and Me
    Grades 1–3    		 God and Family
    Grades 4–5    		 God and Church
    Grades 6–8    		 God and Life
    Grades 9–12    		 God and Service

    --Gadget850 ( Ed) 23:57, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

    Also the question of what about the religious awards available to other youth groups such as the Girl Scouts and Campfire. There is overlap. --Erp 00:25, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
    Why? This is a BSA article. Religious Emblems Programs covers all of the groups. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 00:40, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

    [edit] UUA

    The Unitarian Universalists of America recently reached an agreement with the BSA to create a religious emblem program--someone should fix the article accordingly.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.178.58.84 (talk • contribs)

    Not really. The BSA still does not have it on their list- see Religious Emblems Programs. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 13:53, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
    But they did allow it to advertised at the last National Jamboree. Noting of course that there are two UU programs. One is the UUA (Unitarian Universalist Association) (not of America) which is not recognized by the BSA and one by an UU scouting group which is not recognized by the UUA and may be recognized by the BSA (a PRAY newsletter did claim it had been recognized though it hasn't been added to the official list). Also though the article says the UUA program is the only one administered by PRAY but not recognized by the BSA, this is not strictly true. We should also be careful of wording. PRAY does not administer any program except its own. Its business office does handle processing for many other programs. Also programs aimed at Girl Scouts are processed by PRAY but may not recognized by the BSA (e.g., because the religion has another program for the BSA). --Erp 22:04, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
    Girl Scout programs are outside the scope of this article. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 00:03, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
    Good point. I changed "administered by" to "listed through". --Gadget850 ( Ed) 02:47, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
    The P.R.A.Y. section needs more work- I will reword it on the next update.
    I am a lawyer representing the Unitarian Universlist Association of Congregations as amicus curiae in pending litigation, and I can assure you that the BSA and the UUA have reached no agreement. --Eric Alan Isaacson 8 May 2007
    I've reworded the section. I don't think we can state the BSA has not recognized the UUSO program given that all the actual evidence we have (the P.R.A.Y. announcement, the UUSO home page, the Jamboree presentation) is that it has been approved. The only evidence against approval is absent evidence (no mention in P.R.A.Y.'s list); however, we all know how well some web pages are kept up-to-date. Note like some other programs P.R.A.Y. is not actually handling the mechanics of distributing the awards or the programs so has no great urgency to get the info up-to-date. Given the BSA lawyers, I would expect any web page claiming BSA approval such as the UUSO page if it did not have it would be asked to remove it (and if they didn't respond their ISP would be asked). --Erp 22:44, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
    • The BSA does not list any Unitarian Universalist programs on the official web site. [2] The BSA site has had a recent refresh on all of the awards.
    • The UUSO site states "In the next few years, we hope to: Create and administer a set of BSA-recognized Unitarian Universalist religious awards serving all program areas including Boy Scout, Cub Scout, Venturing, and adult volunteers." [3]
    • The UUSO also states "It is a goal of the UUSO to provide a fully recognized religious emblem program serving all ages and programs in the BSA". [4]

    --Gadget850 ( Ed) 11:27, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

    The UUSO says for all ages. It hasn't yet done one for cubs. The workbook itself states "The Program is recognized by the Boy Scouts of America". The 2006 membership brochure also states that the BSA has approved.[5][6] In other words the UUSO goal is partly met. My own guess (and this is only a guess), is that the BSA approved in early 2005 (I doubt P.R.A.Y. could get that wrong or, if it did, it wouldn't retract it in a subsequent issue) but is not advertising the fact due to the UUA then pointing out that it had not approved. The BSA does not want to be seen as involved in an internal church dispute. I note that the only change on the awards site between Jan 2005 and now was to add a web site for the Buddhist award and change the address of the LDS group. According to PRAY several other web sites should be there (Episcopalian, Churches of Christ, Baptists). The Polish National Catholic Church contact info has changed. The Moravian contact address has changed and so on. My guess is that the BSA web site list changes only when someone notices something is missing and can find the webmaster; there is not a regular system of updating it (a problem that bedevils too many web sites out there). --Erp 19:10, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

    My best guess is that the BSA approved the UUSO program without realizing that it was not a sanctioned UUA group. Once the Relationships Committee realized this, they discontinued further discussion with the UUSO and things have remained in a stalemate. The date at the bottom of the UUSO page (05 Mar 2006) indicates it has not been updated in over a year. I cannot find anything newer on the UUA - UUSO relationship. I really can't see how the BSA could recognize a program that is not recognized by the faith. As this is a guess, we can't include this at this point. You can contact the BSA webmaster via a link at the bottom of the BSA home page. I just alerted them that the link for the Islamic group is now held by cybersquatters. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 02:38, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

    I've sent a query to P.R.A.Y. on the status. ps. Web page updating is not always frequent and dates reported on web pages not always accurate. The date on the file for the UUSO main page however is June 4, 2007 (use page info under tools in firefox.) --Erp 03:46, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] Rename

    Propose rename to "Religious emblems programs (Boy Scouts of America)". The article has been expanded to the point where it is no longer just a list. Per the Language of Scouting, "religious emblems programs" is lowercase- this would be because it does not refer to a specific program. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 02:58, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

    • support rename, in line with direction other BSA articles are heading, and for clarity with the acronym. Be bold, don't wait for consensus, this one is a no-brainer. Chris 04:28, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
    Cleaned up redirects. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 13:39, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] Catholic emblems

    Bronze Pelican, Silver St. George, Jerusalem Cross adult emblems were removed on the grounds that they were not on the PRAY site. I did a bit of research.

    • Bronze Pelican - is a diocesan level award.
    • Silver St. George - is given by the National Catholic Committee on Scouting for national service to Catholic Scouting
    • Jerusalem Cross - is not a Religious Emblem but is given to Scouters by the National Catholic Committee on Scouting [7]

    The first two seem to be for those scouters who go above and beyond the St. George (which is the standard Adult recognition award) and quite limited in the numbers who get them (for instance in 2006 only 4 people in the whole of the US got the Silver St. George). They are not the type of awards that would be gotten through the P.R.A.Y. office. The third is a different kettle of fish. Should they be included somewhere, yes. Perhaps the first two in the chart but footnoted to indicate these are exceptional religious awards. Note that one is nominated for the St. George, Bronze Pelican, and Silver St. George.--Erp 18:46, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

    I added and then removed those awards. The scope of this article is awards recognized by the BSA by the wear of the knot. The Bronze Pelican does not meet this, and the others are essentially recognized within the St. George. I have only mentioned the UUA and the Wicca stuff because they are issues- and I tightened that up a lot from the religious emblems programs article as I have felt they were given undue weight there. Skimming thorough the requirements, all of the adult awards are by nomination- this is noted in the lead, but probably should be emphasized in the table.
    Question: Is the Bronze Pelican a requirement for the St. George? Is the St. George a requirement for the Silver St. George? I would have to go back and look up those requirements. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 19:25, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
    Answers: Looked it up again on the NCSS site. No and no.
    • It appears that Bronze Pelican requirements are developed per diocese, so I would have to say this one does not qualify.
    • St. George eligibility is "any adult who is working in the Scouting Program," and it is listed on P.R.A.Y., so it qualifies.
    • Silver St. George appears to be the same, but at the national level, so I would say it qualifies.
    • The Jerusalem Cross is notes as not qualifying for a knot.
    So- I will add the Silver St. George back. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 19:40, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
    Done. I don't want to get into the myriad of awards that are not part of the BSA programs. The NCSS alone has 13 different awards listed besides the emblems. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 19:49, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
    According to the web pages the St. George is not an requirement for the Silver St. George but the tone implies it is an expected that someone nominated for the latter would have gotten the first. Unlike the Jerusalem Cross the pages for the Silver St. George (these are off of the NCCS site) don't explicitly say the person isn't eligible for the adult knot if they get the award (my guess is that getting the Silver St. George without the St. George is a bit like getting a Masters without a Bachelors, rare but not unknown and you are still entitled to all the privileges of a Bachelors degree). I did find a posting in Scouts_L that the Bronze Pelican does not automatically entitle one to the knot but the policy varies by diocese[8] I should point out that people might expect info here on the Bronze Pelican since it seems to be fairly well known as a Catholic scouting award. --Erp 20:05, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
    So- the Silver St. George and the St. George both qualify and the Bronze Pelican *might*. I can deal with that. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 20:59, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
    Actually, the NCCS clearly states that "the BSA square knot is not authorized to be worn to represent the Bronze Pelican." I've removed it. ----Jdurbach 19:32, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
    Do you have the link for that- I couldn't find it. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 19:53, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
    Nor could I. Note that from a history point of view the Bronze Pelican predates the St. George as an award for adults supporting Catholicism in Scouting. As such it deserves a mention somewhere in this article even if we have proof positive that no Bronze Pelican entitles one to a knot. Perhaps under other awards if not in the chart. Remember that all these awards adult and youth are given by the faith organizations and not by the BSA though the BSA authorizes if and where they can be worn on the uniform and whether the knots can be worn for earning a particular award. --Erp 04:08, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
    I've already mention a very few awards that are not part of the the BSA religious emblems programs, and I may have to rethink that. These are outside the scope of the article- if we add one, then we have to start adding them all. If you want to start an article on Catholics and Scouting or some such, then go ahead. The article is pretty specific on the role of the BSA and of the religious org at this point. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 11:00, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

    Here is the link to the NCCS document that states, on Page 24 Section 3. BSA RELIGIOUS EMBLEMS SQUARE KNOT "The adult knot (05014) is cloth, purple knot on silver. The knot is to be worn by the St. George recipients only." http://www.nccs-bsa.org/pdf/ReligiousEmblemsReferenceManual.pdf --Jdurbach 13:48, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] DRP

    Is the DRP really needed on this page? GCW50 13:46, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

    Upon reflection, not in full. I am reworking the lead right now. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 14:22, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
    OK but I put in promient wording that none of the awards are BSA's but are actually the church's. Many folks for political purposes keep trying to imply that BSA gives out religious awards. It doesn't. These are given by the church most often at a church, not Scouting, ceremnony. All BSA does is approve the program to allow the church's award to be worn on the uniform. GCW50 13:31, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] Review

    I requested a peer review. I would like to get some other eyes on this. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 20:26, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] Numbers

    Does anyone have sources for the number of awards earned? I can only find the God and Country numbers. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 19:59, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

    I'm not sure there is a central clearing house for this info as in many cases each organization does its own count. I did find Hadassah Magazine November 2004 that about 800 kids earn the Jewish emblem each year (also 30,000 Boy Scouts are Jewish according to the article). --Erp 23:31, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
    I believe that in its court papers the BSA gives figures for what percentage of Scouts receive Religous Awards.
    Tetsuden Kashima reports that the Buddhist "Sangha award committee was organized in October 1954," and that "[b]y 1972, ninety-one Sangha awards were presented." Tetsuden Kashima, Buddhism in America: The Social Organization of an Ethnic Religious Institution 145-46 (Westport, CT: Greenwood Press, 1977).
    As for Jewish Scouts receiving awards, it may be noted that American Judaism's largest movement, the Reform Movement, largely severed relations with Scouting in 2001 because the BSA's fundamental values are at odds with the values of Reform Judaism. See Eic Alan Isaacson, Assaulting America's Mainstream Values: Hans Zeiger's Get Off My Honor: The Assault on the Boy Scouts of America, 5 Pierce Law Review 433, 445 & nn.62-63 (2007) http://www.lawreview.piercelaw.edu/PLRarticles/vol5no3/Isaacson.pdf --Eric Alan Isaacson 8 May 2007.

    Found the 2007 report on P.R.A.Y.: [9] ----— Gadget850 (Ed) talk - 01:24, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

    [edit] Todo

    • Reference "Traditional Values, or a New Tradition of Prejudice? The Boy Scouts of America vs. the Unitarian Universalist Association of Congregations".- add web link when it goes online.
    Done
    • Reference "The Boy Scouts, a Battle and the Meaning of Faith"- update web link when the UUA site finishes reorg.
    • Validate all references
    Done

    --Gadget850 ( Ed) 13:26, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] Table Format

    That table needs to be reworked. It was very hard to read/follow. I would rather see instituion and awards listed on the same row of cells---even if this means having two lines per cell.Balloonman 20:05, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

    Like this?


    Denomination
    Proponent association    		 first-level
    Cub Scout    		 second-level
    Webelos Scout    		 third-level
    Boy Scout
    Varsity Scout    		 fourth-level
    Venturer
    senior Boy Scout
    senior Varsity Scout
    Adult recognition
    Episcopal National Episcopal Scouters Association[1] God and Me God and Family God and Church God and Life Saint George Episcopal
    General Church of the New Jerusalem (The New Church) Boy Scout Relations Committee Ten Commandments Award Open Word Award

    --Gadget850 ( Ed) 21:12, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

    Exactly like that... well, I might play around with the colors/borders, but yes. That would be a lot easier on the eyes and figuring it out.Balloonman 21:30, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
    What about the colors? --Gadget850 ( Ed) 02:47, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
    Perhaps adding a light shade of gray to highlight the denomination/proponent association...Balloonman 03:37, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

    LightGray or Beige? There is a list of HTML colors at [10]. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 10:07, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

    Might have do do the extra text for Protestant and Independent Christian Churches as a section note. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 11:25, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
    I'd go with Grey--the beige is barely noticable... and I agree about the section note.
    Done. This does make the table a bit shorter. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 17:07, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
    Shorter, and a whole lot more readable! the old version was impossible to read!Balloonman 18:22, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

    Thanks- let me know anything else that comes to mind. I will be off the net all of next week. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 18:35, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] P.R.A.Y.

    There seems to be an over emphasis on P.R.A.Y. in the article. --Jagz 16:38, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

    How so? All of the BSA recognized programs are listed through P.R.A.Y. and P.R.A.Y. directly administers the God and Country program used by a large number of Protestant denominations; P.R.A.Y. is pretty well intertwined with the BSA in this respect. I think the article makes quite clear how the BSA and P.R.A.Y. interact with each other and with other religious groups. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 17:57, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
    The P.R.A.Y. section in the article does not make a distinction between the programs that P.R.A.Y. administers and those that they only list. --Jagz 19:59, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
    The PRAY website [11] states, "The P.R.A.Y. business office is the order processing center. Because the P.R.A.Y. office handles religious recognitions orders on a full-time basis, other religious organizations have contracted with the P.R.A.Y. office to handle their programs (i.e. Eastern Orthodox Committee on Scouting, Friends Committee on Scouting, National Jewish Committee on Scouting, etc.). In these cases, the religious organizations themselves retain all responsibility for curriculum development and establishing program guidelines, and the P.R.A.Y. business office merely processes their orders." It sounds like PRAY basically processes orders for other religious organizations at their request rather than PRAY acting like some type of accreditation agency. PRAY is over emphasized in the article on this basis and the article is also rather Protestant centric. --Jagz 00:23, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
    • From the article: "The P.R.A.Y. business office is an interfaith operation that processes orders for medals and reference materials for the God and Country awards and for the programs developed by other religious organizations."
    I don't see where you are getting "PRAY acting like some type of accreditation agency."
    How does PRAY decide who gets on their list and who doesn't? --Jagz 16:45, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
    • "the article is also rather Protestant centric"
    Out of the 36 faiths in the list, there are 22 Protestant, 6 Catholic and 8 non-Christian. This is counting Protestant and Independent Christian Churches as one group instead of 12. God and Country is used by 9 of these groups.

    --Gadget850 ( Ed) 01:03, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] Unitarian Universalist Association (UUA)

    The article currently states, "The Unitarian Universalist Association opposes the BSA's membership exclusions and this has led to a dispute and dissolution of ties between the organizations". I know there is a dispute over the UUA's religious emblems program but has there really been a total dissolution of ties between UUA and BSA? If so, what citation can we use in the article for this issue? --Jagz 15:24, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

    The BSA barred the Unitarian Universalist denomination from its Religious Relationships Committee in 1992, and threw the denomination out of its Religious Emblems program in 1998. Documentation is provided in my article published in volume 17 of the George Mason University Civil Rights Law Journal: Eric Alan Isaacson, Traditional Values or a New Tradition of Prejudice? The Boy Scouts of America vs. The Unitarian Universalist Association of Congregations, 17 Geo. Mason U. L. Civ. Rts. L. J. 1 (2006).
    Eric Alan Isaacson 01:33, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

    Here is an article about this dispute [12]. --Jagz 14:51, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

    Related: [13] [14] --Gadget850 ( Ed) 11:36, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] Native American Church

    I don't think this is notable *yet*. There all sorts of faiths that have not yet created an awards program— Shinto, Sikh, Falun Gong, Rastafari and many more. The NAC program may stall at the church level and never get to the BSA. If it is approved, then we add it to the list; if it gets created but is rejected by the BSA, then we add it to the Non-approved programs section. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 11:47, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

    Hmm..., I have no strong oposition to your point. I looked at it as notable from the standpoint that 1) there is no award representing native American faith traditions and 2) the AP picked up the story. How often (accept for the UU issue) does the BSA religous emblem program get national coverage?) --Jdurbach 13:52, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
    As I understand it, the Native American Church is a syncretic form of Christianity, Zen and American Indian beliefs. They may have used the God and Country program in the past— I don't know. I do recall from a few years ago a story on someone developing a Sikh program, but nothing seems to have come of it. As to the AP— I've seen some interesting but trivial stuff get picked up on slow days. Regardless, I think we should wait for future developments. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 14:07, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

    I started a todo list so we don't forget about this. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 14:16, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

    This following was removed from the article pending review of the program by the BSA. --Jagz 20:56, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

    A nine year old Navajo Cub Scout, Kinlichiinii Ashkii John of Florida was reported to have been working to establish an emblem program to reflect his families traditional Navajo spiritual beliefs as of September 2007. "Neither the traditional Navajo spiritual beliefs nor the Native American Church are included among the 35 religious emblems the Boy Scouts of America recognizes."[2] [3]

    [edit] Non-approved programs

    I was already considering that this needed to be renamed. I think "unrecognized" would be better than "disapproved." --Gadget850 ( Ed) 13:54, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

    I agree that diapproved dosen't work. Perhaps "Programs awaiting approval." If not go back to non-approved. --Jdurbach 17:33, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
    "Awaiting" does not work, as it implies that there is some dialog; it appears that the UUA issue has stalled, and the CoG material is not listed through P.R.A.Y. Since the CoG program is not listed, I don't see how it is unapproved or disapproved, thus it is a program that CoG offers that neither P.R.A.Y., the BSA nor the GSUSA recognize. "Unrecognized" would be more neutral here. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 18:30, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
    I reorganized it so the wording is no longer a concern. --Jagz 21:52, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

    And I almost added earlier that I don't want to see this split up. Oh well, let's just rename this to religious controversies. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 22:03, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

    One week articlebreak. Article removed from watchlist. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 00:39, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] Unitarian Universalist controversy

    And what I feared has happened. By renaming the section to "controversy", it is now attracting material outside the scope of this article. This article deals specifically with the religious emblems programs, and not with the larger scope of the BSA and its relationships. The UU section was included to specifically discuss the emblems program, and only the emblems program. The issues between the UUA and the BSA are a larger problem than what should be covered here. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 09:38, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

    I deleted the unrelated information. We'll just need to keep patrolling for this happening again. — Val42 14:29, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
    I changed the section name and moved the controversy discussion to the Unitarian Universalist Association article. --Jagz 20:02, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] Date Founded: 1926 vs. 1939?

    Unless there is obejection, I am going to change the infobox "founded" date to 1926. This is simalr to the OA which we recognize as having been "founded" in 1915 although not formally adopted by the BSA until 1948. --Jdurbach (talk) 20:35, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] Organization

    Sections that are logically related seem to be separated, causing some disjunction. Proposed organization:

    1. Award
    2. Origins
    3. Administration (was Program approval)
      1. Program recognition (was lead of Program approval)
      2. Programs of Religious Activities with Youth
    4. Recognized programs and awards (was Approved programs and awards)
    5. Non-recognized programs and awards
      1. Other decorations
      2. Covenant of the Goddess (was Smaller programs)
      3. Unitarian Universalist Association

    --— Gadget850 (Ed) talk - 16:17, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

    • You may have forgotten or not known but one of the reasons the article is organized as it is is to discourage people from adding controversies like "Native American Church" or messing with the controversies that are mentioned. It seems to have worked. --Jagz (talk) 18:23, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
    I initiated the discussion on both issues, so I am well familiar. The Native American Church entry was not yet notable, nor was there any controversy. The UUA section had material added to it that was outside the scope of this article; it was moved to the main UUA article and is noted in the controversies article. As I see it, the CoG section and the UUA section both involve programs explicitly not recognized by the BSA; I don't understand why they were separated in this manner. --— Gadget850 (Ed) talk - 14:12, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

    Counter-proposal for article organization:

    1. Award
    2. Origins
    3. Administration (was Program approval)
      1. Programs of Religious Activities with Youth
      2. Recognition of programs and awards (was lead of Program approval)
        1. Non-traditional religions (was Smaller programs)
        2. Unitarian Universalist Association
    4. Recognized programs and awards (was Approved programs and awards)
    5. Other decorations (delete section)

    The "Other decorations" section is PRAY-oriented, not particularly notable, and can therefore be deleted. The "Non-traditional religions" section can discuss some of the events leading up to the change of requirements in 1993, including Covenant of the Goddess, evangelical-based churches like the AME and FME (African Methodist Evangelical and Free Methodist Evangelical) churches, "Free Will" churches, and churches based on national ministers like Robert Schuller (The Crystal Cathedral) who were not associated with a national denomination.[15] --Jagz (talk) 16:17, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

    Other decorations can go. Administration as a section title does not quite fit- let me think on that. --— Gadget850 (Ed) talk - 17:41, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
    The changes in program approval criteria that affected the non-traditional religions such as Covenant of the Goddess may also affect traditional, smaller non-mainstream religions. --Jagz (talk) 16:46, 1 January 2008 (UTC)