Talk:Religion in the United Kingdom

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Contents

[edit] Separating off History of religion in the United Kingdom (or perhaps better still the British Isles)

I think this should be done. Anyone? Dunc|☺ 20:32, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Or might
  • History of religion in Wales
  • History of religion in Scotland
  • History of religion in England
  • History of religion in Ireland
be more easily handled (and understood)? Just a suggestion. Man vyi 22:21, Nov 12, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Religion in Scotland

Is this article ever going to be created? Scotland has such a rich religious history that it seems strange that no specific article exists on the subject. The same applies to the other constituent countries. --Bob 23:20, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Opening paragraph

The first paragraph should be a good précis of the article. The current one does not serve this purpose very well. – Kaihsu 10:52, 2005 Jun 24 (UTC)

I agree - it was terrible. I have tried to address this. But the section on Christianity is still a mess, as it tries to conflate the history of the Anglican disestablishment with the current more general position in the constituent countries. Myopic Bookworm 17:22, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Church of Scotland

didnt The Church of Scotland Act 1921 and 1925 disestablish The Church of Scotland?

[edit] Atheism in the UK

I don't feel enough emphasis is placed on the prominence of atheism in modern Britain. While a majority of people still claim to be Christians, this is usually meant only in a nominal sense. The number of people who are actual practicing Christians is rather small, smaller in fact than the number who profess to believe in no god at all. It is therefore arguable, though admittedly controversial, that atheists actually form the largest religious group in the United Kingdom. For this reason, atheism sould really form a much larger part of any balanced discussion of religion in this country that is currently the case. Mcgibson 21:11, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree. To disprove something is harder than to prove something. To believe that God does not exist takes a lot more faith than to believe. So I'd say it is definitely a faith but not really a religion. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.9.95.128 (talk) 02:00, 25 January 2007 (UTC).
Does any one have access to such figures as memebrship of the Evangelical Allience which might give an indication here.

[edit] Selective target?

Anwar..

You have recently deleted Hinduism related links [1] in Religion in the United Kingdom article by calling it spam. How can you term ALL of these sites as spam and remove them without any explanation? Can you explain why you only picked Hinduism sites from others? Or you picked that because Indian Hindu had linked them there?

  • Site - List of Major Hindu Temples in Britain
  • Site - Swaminarayan Temple site (Largest temple of Hinduism in Europe)
  • Site - Hindu forum of Britian (One of most popular Hindu forum of Britain)
  • Site - Official site of ISCKON UK
  • Site - Chaorit festival site (Major popular Hindu event in UK)
  • Site - Official site of National council of Hindu temples in UK

Are these spams or Hinduism is Spam according to you? Is this your selective anti-Holy Ganga behaviour (because of your past actions, i think it is) or selective anti-Indian Hindu behaviour (as per your impression on numerous talk pages)?. - Holy Ganga talk 20:29, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

  • Anwar you reverted again with a message "are you going to give links to every temple in UK?".[2]

Atleast study the links atleast once before editing as per your personal ideology.

Official website of ISKCON UK, Official website of Largest temple of Hinduism in Europe, Informative site on popular Hindu event of UK (chaorit festival), informative site on list of major hindu temples, Official site of strongest Hindu forum...etc. Are these sites of every temple in UK? - Holy Ganga talk 20:29, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

So, this is very surprising that even without even opening any site you came to know that All of them are Spams and you selectively reverted everything in an illogical way. By the way, this is not the first time you did this. Regards- Holy Ganga talk 21:03, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Link spam

Stop linkspamming. UK is not a Hindu country. There needs to be a balance. Wikipedia is not the place for proselytisation. You may however add as many links as you like in India. Anwar 18:44, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Can't you differentiate between spams and informative sites? Linking informative sites about major Hinduism related things like largest temple of Hinduism in UK, Major popular festival of Hinduism in UK, Official site of "UK ISKCON" center, most popular Hinduism council etc. are not spams. The FACT is all these things are MAJOR things about Hinduism in UK. There is no rule on wikipedia that minority religions can't link more than one site and are not allowed to give complete information about religion in another religion majority countries. You are running from logical discussions and without providing any logical reason, you are doing revert war here.

Even admins have asked you to Stop Such blatant style of editing.[3] - Holy Ganga talk 20:49, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Anwar, please aim at less aggressive language. HG, we need to keep a measure of balance, there ~0.5 million Hinduists in the UK, with your additions, there are nearly as many sites as for Christinaity(!). That dosen't make sense; those links belong (no, Anwar, not in India) in Hinduism in the United Kingdom. Thanks. El_C 21:18, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
Thank God, the page is protected. It's actually a non-issue. The new article you have noted looks a more appropriate destination for HG to stack all his links. Btw, can you have a look at another similar revert war where HG is pitted against several editors who distinguish between nationalists and fundamentalists. May be you can think of a solution. Anwar 21:33, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
Anwar, why don't you explain me , How all of them are spams? After your first revert in haste, you even called them sites of every temple in UK (which they are not) and it prooved that your edits are selective. - Holy Ganga talk 21:57, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
Hello, EI_C. Actually, i don't have any problem if after discussion with Anwar ot anybody else, we reach to this or that conclusion. But after discussion and that is what we should do on wikipedia while dealing with major reverts but Anwar seems not interested in discussions with Indian Hindu wikipedians and want to make major reverts selectively and personally. OK 6-7 are too much but is there a rule that there can't be more than one, even if it is giving important information about minority religions? How can giving information of largest temple of Hinduism in UK (infact in Europe) can be a spam? How can site giving information about list of temples in UK (more than 140 major temples) can't be linked in Hinduism section of "Religion in UK"? It's better not to create separate section for other religion in External links, if more than 1 site is not allowed, even if it is giving important information. Regards, - Holy Ganga talk 21:57, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
Hi. It's not spam, that's why I told him to use less aggressive language, but it he's right that it's inappropriate. There are no precise rules for this, but try to think of the number of links per any religion in the UK as a sort of demographic extrapolation of its [UK] adherents, I think that makes sense. As for your other question, see my pre-RFC hair-brain scheme. Thanks. El_C 23:45, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
Anwar saadat is has a phobia of islamophobes and is anti-Hindu. This is through past experience that I believe any Indian who has dealed with him can confirm. Thus his anti-Hindu edits should be rapidly reverted and respected editors should not be drawn in by his consistent reporting of Indian and Hindu users... Nobleeagle (Talk) 05:57, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
His position against having nearly as many Hindu links as Christian ones, is a sensible, albeit aggressively phrased one. This (article talk page) is not RfC, nor the arbcom. While anyone is free to initiate an RfC on Anwar, it would probably be recieved less favourably (and perhaps not even pass the trying and failing to resolve the dispute burden by the overseeing admin/s) if no attempts were made to follow my pre-RFC plan. El_C 15:26, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Regarding Atheist POV

"Atheism, on the basis of these statistics, is a belief held by at least 15% of the population."

No it doesn't, it could mean they are Deist or Agnostic as well. Atheist POV has snuck into this article as well I see.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ The above came from someone or something (hiding behind an IP address of 86.138.0.148) with an interesting POV regarding atheism based on similar edits around the same time but, their particular mental instability aside, it is true that the UK statistics office URL has "about 16%" as including "agnostics, atheists, heathens and those who wrote Jedi Knight." i.e. it wasn't atheists in particular.

The problem with the most topical example of 'Jedi' is actually part of the problem of classifying Atheism (or agnostics, heathens and obviously those who wrote Jedi Knight) as a "religion". It's unclear what criteria the UK goverment uses, if any, to classify religions. Though given that there are around 390,000 Jedis and they outnumber other mainstream religions it's possible that the other religions don't want the competition from this new and much larger group. It does seem useful for the UK goverment to lumber all of "agnostics, atheists, heathens and those who wrote Jedi Knight" as, to use the parlance of modern Social identity terminology, the 'Others Within'.

So the vandalism should stay as it does raise a valid point though its a bit like saying that Hitler did wonders for the German road building industry; it fails to mention other collateral damage. Ttiotsw 23:44, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Atheism literally means without religion. It is possible to be an agnostic atheist i.e. You aren't sure if there is a God and you don't subscribe to any religion. "No Religion" as stated officially in the census is synonymous to atheism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.109.132.102 (talk) 16:06, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

I don't agree that 'no religion' is synonymous with atheism in this context. Surveys repeatedly show there are plenty of people in the UK who are non-religious yet believe in gods, and there are many people who do not believe in gods but would identify with a religion. The fundamental problem here is that the census questions were not designed to find out about people's religious beliefs but were designed to find out their religious affiliation. I think the article has struck the right balance by reporting the census results whilst expressing caution about using them to measure the prevalence of particular beliefs. --Duncan Keith 18:20, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
I just took a quick browse around the UK National Statistics site, looking to confirm or refute the assertion above that "the census questions were not designed to find out about people's religious beliefs but were designed to find out their religious affiliation". I was unable to find this info there in the brief time I spent searching for it. I think that it would be a useful addition to the article to report, along with a supporting source citation, what questions were asked in order to elicit the response information which the census stats report. Additionally, if it is indeed true as asserted above that "Surveys repeatedly show there are plenty of people in the UK who are non-religious yet believe in gods, and there are many people who do not believe in gods but would identify with a religion.", I believe that it would be a useful addition to this article to report that information, along with appropriate supporting source citations. -- Boracay Bill 22:50, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
The 2001 census form for England: [4]; See Q10 on page 6. The inclusion of a religion question in the 2001 census was somewhat controversial and came about as a result of a concerted lobbying from religious groups. During the deliberations a clear consensus emerged that the religion question should focus on affiliation rather than practice or belief.[5] A survey from 2006 has a cross table on page 57 comparing belief in 'a God or higher spiritual force' with the 'religion that you yourself belong to' showing that amongst Christians 63% are theistic and 14% are atheistic, and amongst those of no faith 10% are theistic and 69% atheistic.[6] --Duncan Keith 01:51, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
Interesting. The question asked was: "What is your religion?" with checkboxes presented for None, Christian (including Church of England, Catholic, Protestant, and all other Christian denominations), Budhist, (unreadable — perhaps Hindu), Jewish, Muslim, Sikh, Any other religion (please write in). Reading that, it is not clear to me whether the information being requested is about religious affiliation or about religious faith. If I were a non-practicing believer in any religion, named or un-named on the form, I would have probably responded according to my belief. If I had some vague belief that there must be some sort of "Higher Being" without having an affiliation with or preference for any specific organized religion, I probably would have checked "Other", with or without trying to write in a descriptive name — but that's just me reacting subjectively to the form. It's anyone's guess how the 7,709,267 individuals reported as "People stating religion as: No religion" reacted, and what portion of those are religious to some unknown degree but unaffiliated with a specific religion. Perhaps the Statistics section of the article should provide a bit of detail about how the question was asked and should cite the form image. If there is some significant controversy about whether those responding "None" should or should not be classed as "Atheist", and if that controversy is reported in verifiable and reliable sources, perhaps info about the controversy should be mentioned in the Statistics section of the article. -- Boracay Bill 03:06, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
You might find the National Secular Society's take on the religion question illuminating.[7] --Duncan Keith 09:09, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Better Catholic Church picture?

The Catholic church in the UK does not seem well served by a picture of a Vatican flag on a gateway in front of a church that is out of sight. Can anyone substitute something more apt, say a picture of a notable (and visible) church? Examples that come to mind include Liverpool Metropolitan or Westminster cathedral, or the Catholic shrine church at Walsingham. Myopic Bookworm 09:58, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

How about St. Chad's as first post-Reformation RC cathedral? I've moved the previous pic to Roman Catholicism in Great Britain (a sadly under-illustrated article) where it seems pertinent. If anyone has any better ideas... Man vyi 11:04, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
St Chad's seems fine to me. Myopic Bookworm 09:47, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Notable places of worship

While you may choose to lump it with 'history' rather than current religion, Stonehenge is a fairly high-profile place of worship in the UK. Druidism is included in the article (even if it is neo-druidism) and so it would appear logical that such a landmark be included. Prince of Cats 18:11, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes that makes a lot of sense.Vexorg 05:39, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Quakers?

There's no mention of the Quaker belief, which originated in England and is still followed by several thousand people in the UK. Could have a link to the main article on Quakerism at least.

You missed the crafty link to Britain Yearly Meeting semi-disguised under Religious Society of Friends. That would probably be the most pertinent link for Religion in the United Kingdom - but no reason why some elaboration shouldn't be in order, I suppose. Man vyi 08:09, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] History of christianity in the UK especially Kent

I have access to a study carried out a number of years ago by Mrs Rosemary Brown into the history of "the church" in thanet and surrounding Kent. The report exists only in paper form (I understand) but if I gain access to it I shall add a summary to the talk page for disemination into the project.

It seems that "Saint" Augustine may have been beaten to the Isles by the organic spread of Chrisitianity (this is sometimes called celtic christianity). It is likely that this celtic form would not have been recognised by the Church of Rome and was probably quickly eliminated.

For reference the person who compiled the study happens to have the honor of being my mum.

[edit] YouGov statistics

"A 2004 YouGov poll found that 44 per cent of UK citizens believe in God, while 35 per cent do not"

The word 'God' (as a proper noun) can be either a definite reference to the Christian god or a deictic expression that usually references the speaker's preferred deity. The first of these is becoming less tenable in the increasingly multicultural population of English speakers, and it can be assumed that Wikipedia is not aligned with any particular god. Recommend that the term be replaced with 'the Christian god' or similar.

Also, 44 + 35 does not give 100, regardless of whatever rounding assumptions you make. Presumably the first figure represents those who believe in the Christian god and the second represents atheists (ie non-theists). The wording should reflect this.

Ilkali 22:21, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

The original data shows that 44% believe in God and 35% do not, but the remaining 21% are not those who believe in a non-Christian God but those who didn't know. Furthermore, as the survey divides those who believe in God by religion and by the number of Gods they believe in, I do not think they meant 'God' as referring specifically to the Christian God. Finally, including this information without a reference would be original research, which is forbidden on Wikipedia. Hut 8.5 11:54, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Jedi

i am deeply offended, jedi is the fourth biggest religion in the UK but this not mention nor is it listed as one of the UK religions, this is clear bias against this new and fast growing religion. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.26.106.44 (talk) 02:35, 10 March 2007 (UTC).

I would support it being added to the table. Wikipedia is neutral and so I think the table should represent the raw statistics rather than our interpretation PiTalk - Contribs 18:04, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
I would support the addition of Jedi to the table cited as Source: UK 2001 Census.Religion In Britain. UK National Statistics Online (2004). Retrieved on 2007-10-04. if the corresponding table in the UK census 2001 cited as a supporting source contained a figure for jedi. However, the the corresponding table in the UK census 2001 cited as a supporting source does not contain a figure for jedi. The cited supporting source contains several explanatory notes about the table, one of which says,"About sixteen per cent of the UK population stated that they had no religion. This category included agnostics, atheists, heathens and those who wrote Jedi Knight."
On a related note, I have removed the following from the article:

The 2001 UK census also included responses from 390,127 people (or 0.7% of the population of England and Wales) who gave their religion as Jedi. The answers were distorted by an internet campaign prior to the census that claimed that if at least 50,000 people stated their religion as 'Jedi Knight' it would be officially classified as a religion. This was not strictly true; though the Office of National Statistics does separately list religions with more than 50,000 adherents (rather than aggregating them into the 'Other' category), this separate listing has no constitutional or legal significance.[citation needed]

and replaced it with

At the time the Census was carried out, there was an internet campaign that encouraged people to answer the religion question "Jedi Knight". The number of people who stated Jedi was 390,000 (0.7 per cent of the population).

citing this as a supporting source. I have also cited this supplementary source. I suggest that anonymous writer 82.26.106.44 take his concerns about being deeply offended to the UK Census office. -- Boracay Bill (talk) 23:27, 29 April 2008 (UTC).

[edit] NPOV

i have tried to the NPOV problem. i'll add a picture to the article as well soon —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.26.106.44 (talk) 02:59, 10 March 2007 (UTC).


[edit] Religion in Wales

The percentage for Islam in Wales, at 3.7% (22000 people) was blatantly wrong, so I have changed it to 0.7% as quoted by ONS at http://www.statistics.gov.uk/census2001/profiles/commentaries/ethnicity.asp#religion. Claret 07:43, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] My second reversion of edits by Foxley_of_Grim

I have today reverted for the second time edits to the Statistics section by User:Foxley_of_Grim. I would have raised this on his wikipedia talk page, but AFAICT he does not have a user page. his edits replaced material supported by cites to official UK census results with material which differed significantly and which was unsupported by source cites. I encourage User:Foxley_of_Grim to read WP:V -- Boracay Bill 12:23, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Length

the article is becoming overly long perhaps some of this content should be forked.


[edit] Christianity in the UK as the major religion

I'm not racist or anything but i just find it hard to believe that the goverment don't seem to want to call the UK a Christian country. It is though and they can put all these surveys and polls out saying that it isn't but it is obvious.

Nearly every village has a church, nearly every city a cathedral. The Head of State is a Christian (The Queen) and the second largest religion is Islam (No religion accepted) which I might add is only 2%.

We celebrate Christmas and Easter nationally, but Christians cannot be proud to be Christians because the government say we can't because it will offend non-Christians.

I talked to some of my (non-christian) friends back in Spain, (I am Spanish-in England on holiday) about it and they think it's absolutely stupid, even they realise it's a Christian country.

And i might add, that when people say about "Practicing Christians" is stupid, because to be a Christian you don't need to go to church every Sunday, even the priests say that. Church is a place of worship for you, a place to celebrate, to marry, to christen, to pray and have a timeout and heart-to-heart with God, that is being Christian, and practicing outside in the real world your Christian beliefs to help others etc.

Yes people abuse the rights that Christianity offers you sometimes but Christianity is one of the most tolerating religions and people should stand up more for Christianity and one of the major beliefs in Christianity is to respect all other religions, so that is what i do, so all non-christians out there please don't think that i am being discriminative against your religions, i am just trying to stick up for Christianity in the UK as the major religion. Nadal25 20:34, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Why should any of the millions of non-Christians have to put up with their country being labled as Christian? Diversity and secularity are what we should strive for; Ghandi had the right idea. --Calummaciver 18:09, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
The UK is a secular countryVexorg 21:16, 3 October 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Misuse of 'secular'

The UK is today a predominantly secular state with only 38%[1] of the population believing in a God. - If only 1% of the populace believed in God that wouldn't make the UK a secular or predominantly secular state. Secular in this context means that the apparatus of government is not linked with the apparatus of religious practice, and that is not the case in the UK. The Church of England is the established church and the role of government in intertwined with that of the church. The PM takes his authority from the Crown and the Crown is the head of the Church of England. The Lords Spiritual have seats in the upper chamber and Bishops of the Church of England are appointed by the PM. Being "predominantly secular" is like being a "only little bit pregnant" It don't happen. Jooler 01:23, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree. 'Secular state' has the particular meaning that the state is free of institutional religious influence, and that is clearly not the case for the UK. Duncan Keith 03:44, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
I disagree. Secularity defines Secular state as "a nation that has a secular government.". Secular state defines that term as "A secular state is a state or country that is officially neutral in matters of religion, neither supporting nor opposing any particular religious beliefs or practices". Compare with Modern secular society (a redirect to Secularization), which says, "Secularization or secularisation generally refers to the process of transformation by which a society migrates from close identification with religious institutions to a more separated relationship." -- Boracay Bill 04:12, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
I think we agree that distinctions need to be made between 'state', 'country', and 'society'. By the definition you have given the UK is not a secular state, since Protestant Christianity retains some residual privileges in government, even if British society is generally secular. Duncan Keith 05:04, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
I agree with Boracay Bill above. However I have removed the word state as to avoid confusion. Duncan mentions 'society' and I agree this is a better appointnment of the secularity of the UKVexorg 05:30, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
I might add to the list above the ability of the General Synod to promote measures that pass into law. Jooler 12:37, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
I have added my latest comments to this discussion in answeer to Viewfinder's hasty reversions over ath the UK/religion discussion. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:United_Kingdom#Religion_revisited Vexorg 21:22, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Poll

Looking at this poll that's being used in the lead, its taken from http://ec.europa.eu/public_opinion/archives/ebs/ebs_225_report_en.pdf. For the UK the poll used breaks down as follows.

  • 38% I believe there is a God.
  • 40% I believe there is some sort of spirit or life force.
  • 20 I don't believe there is any sort of spirit, God or life force.
  • 2% Don't know.

So 78% have some sort of spiritual belief, and the level of atheism is actually far lower than one might imagine from the lead. All Buddhists would fall into that 40%. I'm not saying the 40% are all Buddhists, just that you wouldn't classify Buddhists or people with similar beliefs as not practising or having a religious belief. Jooler 08:32, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

You're right to point out that belief in God is not the only sort of religious belief. Another recent poll reports 45% Yes & 33% No to the question 'Do you believe in a God or higher spiritual force?" (see p.57 of [8]). The difficulty here is that there is considerable ambiguity in what is meant by 'religious', 'atheist', etc. and opinion polls on religious questions are very sensitive to the exact wording and order of the questions. Perhaps we need a separate section on the extent of beliefs typically associated with religion to avoid the lead paragraphs being dominated by statistics? Duncan Keith 13:13, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
Acutally Jooler is correct about the aspect of 'religious observence' and a the belief in a god. In view of that I changed to my original wording which I think makes more sense. It tells of the Church and State link still remaining and tells of the predominently secular nature of society these days.Vexorg 23:12, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
Regarding uppercase vs. lowercase, this is a direct quote from a cited supporting source. As such, it should be rendered as it was rendered in the cited supporting source. The cited supporting source capitalized the word "god" at that point. I have added an explanatory footnote about thet. If this had not been a direct quote, Wikipedia's style guideline on capitalization of names of religions, deities, philosophies, doctrines and their adherents would have been nnot to capitalize the word "god" at this point. (see this). -- Boracay Bill 23:49, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
"Wikipedia's style guideline on capitalization ... not to capitalize the word "god" at this point" - incorrect. That section says it should be capitalised. Jooler 07:34, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
Incorrect. The guideline says: Individual deities begin with a capital letter: God, Allah, Freya, the Lord, the Supreme Being, the Messiah. The same is true when referring to important religious figures, such as Muhammad, by terms such as the Prophet. Groups of deities should not be capitalized (the Norse gods). Transcendent ideas in the Platonic sense also begin with a capital letter: Good and Truth. Pronouns referring to deities, or nouns (other than names) referring to any material or abstract representation of any deity, human or otherwise, do not begin with a capital letter. in the example response: "I believe there is a God", the word "god" is being used as an abstract noun representing some sort of "supreme being" (see, e.g., see this); the word is not being used there as the name of any specific individual deity — at least that's my own interpretation of the offered example response. As is always the case in religious matters, individual interpretations may vary widely, and probably will do so. -- Boracay Bill 22:35, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
If you're saying that 'God' is being used as a substitute for 'Supreme Being', have a look at Supreme Being and note the capitalisation. "God" is used a catch-all proper noun for the god of the various monotheistic religions. My understanding is that it is not correct to say the the name of the Christian god is "God". God speaks his name in Exodus and that is interpreted by some as Jehovah. Jooler 23:47, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Lead

Okay I admit I got confused with the "a God" thing with the poll. The poll wouldn't have made grammatical sense if it had said "I believe there is God", but clearly it meant the God of the Abrahamic tradition. Saying "proclaiming a belief in God" and "proclaiming a belief in a God" read subtly different. The Defender of the Faith bit is a bit of a red herring really as that was a title given to Henry VIII by the Pope Leo X. I think going in to this too much for the lead. Jooler 01:00, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

It doesn't clearly mean the Abrahamic God at all, and why should it?Vexorg 21:07, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
You really think it might have referred to Jupiter or Bacchus or Thor!? No of course not. It referred to the God capital G, of the monotheistic religions. Jooler 00:18, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
do you not think people who believe in non Abrahmaic gods also spell 'god' with a capital G ?? Please don't assume everyone who believes in a god believes in the abrahamic god. Captial G is fine but it's 'a God' Vexorg 19:16, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
Look. It's a capital G because it is 'The God' of a monotheistic religion. It's a capital for the same reason we use a capital for the Queen, the Pope and the Devil etc. as opposed to 'a queen', a pope or 'a devil'. Jooler 21:30, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Secular again

The National Secular Society's remit (ref our article) is to ""challenging religious privilege,". The society campaigns for: the disestablishment of the Church of England; the withdrawal of state subsidies to religious schools; the end of tax exemption for churches; the abolition of the blasphemy law; and an end to the public funding of chaplains in prisons, hospitals and the armed services.". I do not think that secular is a valid word to use here for the UK. There is no equivalent in the UK to the banning of religious practice in schools as in France and the USA. I believe more than 50% of schools in the UK have a religious connection and are backed by the state. Jooler 00:30, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Secular is perfectly valid for the populace of the UK. Secular is not limited to banning religous practises at all, it is a framework for accepting people of ALL faiths and non-faiths.Vexorg 19:13, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
Please can we debate the use of the word secular here, not in the article. I am also concerned about this edit, in which it appears to me that Vexorg has awarded himself a barnstar. If I am right, then this is surely out of order. Viewfinder 22:21, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Vexorg&diff=prev&oldid=145885465. Jooler 22:50, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
Giving myself a barnstar???? Is there something wrong with you? Why don't you ask the user who awarded it to me if you think that's the case? Vexorg 01:11, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
Sorry, as Jooler has implicitly (and more appropriately) pointed out, the above mentioned edit was a transfer from the talk page of a barnstar awarded by another editor several weeks ago. But it still seems to me that Vexorg is adding material against the consensus of other editors, and is editing this article, and the religion section of the UK article, as though he owned them. Viewfinder 13:20, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Statistics

The Tearfund report itself says that the figures for religious affiliation are not comparable with the Census results, since different questions were asked. The Tearfund question was similar to the BSA question which has consistently reported just over 50% "belonging to" Christianity since the mid 1990s. Additionally I couldn't find a source for the "7% are practicing Christians" assertion in the Tearfund report. Duncan Keith 07:07, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Notwithstanding that there was nothing wrong with that paragraph you blanket removed information with wasn't in your above assertions.Vexorg 01:15, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
The Tearfund number for "belong to Christianity" does not confirm your assertion that Christianity has declined since 2001. It makes no sense to use a figure that the report itself says should not be compared to the census results whilst ignoring an annual series that shows no significant change since 2001. It may well be true that in some sense Christianity has declined since 2001, but better data that the Tearfund figure you quote is needed to back up that assertion. Please read p.10 of the Tearfund report where this question is discussed. Duncan Keith 15:58, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Theocratical section

I've moved the "The direct influence of the Anglican Communion has ....." to the politics section. But maybe we need a section in the article that deals with and highlights the theocratical aspect of religion in the UK?Vexorg 15:06, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Theocracy is not the right word. In a theocracy secular institutions are absent or subservient to religious authorities. In contrast the Church of England is subservient to secular authority. There is a long continuum between a fully secular state and a theocracy, and the UK is close to the secular end; However there is much to be said about the constitutional role of the established church, so I wouldn't object if you started such a section, albeit with a more accurate title. Duncan Keith 16:35, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
I did say theocratical aspect :). I appreciate the UK is not a Theocracy as such. But such a section might tie in better with the Theocracy articleVexorg 21:10, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Denominational Breakdown of Christianity

Why are there no statistics on the denominational breakdown of generic "Christianity" in any of this article? The numbers just dont exist or what? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.62.215.64 (talk) 18:36, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Duly added. Respondents in England and Wales were not asked about denominations in the 2001 census, so a recent survey was used. These figures are not directly comparable with the census results since a subtly different question was asked. Duncan Keith 04:23, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] English speaking 'Old Catholics' in the UK

Whilst this is a numerically small series of denominations in various parts of the UK, is there a way that we could include such denominations as a means of exploring how Christian faith and observance in the United Kingdom is moving towards a smaller style of Church and away from the larger denominations. There are quite a few sites on WP that could give some clues. What do you think?Spiorad (talk) 12:01, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Number of Muslims in Sheffield and Birmingham

After talking about Yemeni sailors, the article takes a sudden dizzying change of direction, and claims that there are 23,819 Muslims in Sheffield and Birmingham.

This is ambiguous - Does it mean "The sum of the number of Muslims in Sheffield and the number of Muslims in Birmingham is 23,819", or does it mean "There are 23,819 Muslims in Sheffield and there are 23,819 Muslims in Birmingham"?

It is also spuriously over-precise; even if it were ever a correct figure, it would be immediately invalidated as soon as one Sheffield-based Muslim goes on holiday!

Any chance of a fix or clarification from someone who (unlike me!) knows what they're talking about? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.133.107.130 (talk) 15:50, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

I think the number was for Sheffield alone and was from the 2001 Census figures, but I agree that it doesn't belong there and have removed it. (You are of course free to make edits yourself -- see WP:BOLD Duncan Keith (talk) 18:51, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Figures for atheism?

Are there any statistics (reliable enough for us to use) that specifically cover the proportion of atheists (ie not including agnostics etc) in the UK? All I can find in the article is the bit from the British Humanist Society. I self-identify as atheist, but while I don't have any real objection to being calle humanist I wouldn't self-identify as such. So they're not necessarily the same thing. 81.158.0.164 (talk) 22:10, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

A YouGov survey in 2004 asked the 35% of respondents who did not believe in God whether they were an atheist (defined as "someone who believes there is no God") or an agnostic ("someone who is not sure whether there is a God"), with results of 35% atheist, 46% agnostic and 18% neither/DK, which suggests a core atheist population of at least 12%.[9] This is in line with a BSA survey in 2000 in which 12% selected 'Don't believe in God' from a range of options about belief in god.[10]. It also matches the 12% obtained by MORI in 2003 for "I am an atheist (convinced there's no God)".[11]. Duncan Keith (talk) 23:36, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Renaming of titles

I find the renaming of the section titles pre and post reformation a little problematic. It presumes an understanding of Christian History that a newcomer to the subject may not understand, especially if they are not a Christian. Maybe a line towards the start of the article explaining that religion in the UK has come to be defined by the events of the reformation may help. I would prefer to simply keep to dates or independent historical periods.

Any thoughts? johnmark† 17:38, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

I see your point, but it seems to have been resolved by the wikifying of 'reformation'. 86.156.3.70 (talk) 18:16, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] No mention of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormons), or Jehovah's Witnesses.

There seems to be a strange omission of these 2 large denominations on the Religion in the UK page. Perhaps others too. My perspective is as a Latter-day Saint (also known as 'Mormon'). Latter-day Saints have been in the UK for about 170 years now. About 100000 joined the Church in the 1800s and emigrated to become half of the LDS population in the US, and since then most have stayed in the UK. The latest statistics on the Church's website lds.org are that there are 180000 members in the UK in 350 congregations, a lot more than some of the religions listed on this page, and I'm sure there are similar statistics for Jehovah's Witnesses. I'm not sure how fussed the Jehovah's Witnesses area about being counted as a Christian denomination, but the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints certainly considers itself Christian - it's in the name! I'll try and add info if I get time, but meanwhile someone else might like to have a go. These are both steadily growing denominations last time I checked while half the UK Christian denominations are declining in numbers, so they aren't going away! Squiggle56% (talk) 11:12, 7 April 2008 (UTC)