Talk:Religion in ancient Greece

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[edit] The Introduction

For obvious reasons the current introduction for this page is not up to standard, but in attempting to restore this page to a former respectable state (not my own work, however) I found that the changes had been reverted. In trying again, I found that I had been reported for vandalism. Obviously some rather prideful but tactless wikipedian is sitting on this article. Can a mod of some sort step in here? Pleas tell me the following entry is better than what currently stands:

Greek religion encompasses the collection of beliefs and rituals practiced in Ancient Greece in form of cult practices. It is therefore the practical counterpart of Greek mythology. Within the Greek world, religious practice varied enough so that one might speak of Greek religions. The cult practices of the Hellenes extended beyond mainland Greece, to the islands and coasts of Ionia in Asia Minor, to Magna Graecia (Sicily and southern Italy), and to scattered Greek colonies in the Western Mediterranean, such as Massalia (Marseille). Greek examples tempered Etruscan cult and belief to inform much of the Roman religion. There is a scholarly belief that early Greek religion came from, or was strongly influenced by, shamanistic practices from the steppes of Central Asia to the Greek colony of Olbia in Scythia, on the northern shore of the Black Sea, then all the way down to Greece.1

The last sentence in particular is just false - I think that there might be some over-reaching going on in the interpretation of the source (which I admit I have not read). Nevertheless, we have evidence that deities such as Zeus, Poseidon and Hera were worshiped by the Mycenaeans (Linear B tablets record this). If the source is claiming Orphism came from Scythia - this may well be the case. However, it is too much to claim Greek religion as a whole, or even significant parts of it, were imported. Most of it was indigenous - surviving the Dark Age collapse and being reinterpreted, to be sure. I'm going to go ahead and just erase that sentence. It needs to be placed elsewhere or reworked, because as it is, it just isn't true. Pyzmark (talk) 23:59, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

In fact, another interesting tidbit of information. Not only were Zeus, Hera and Poseidon known to the Mycenaeans, Dionysos was as well. His name is mentioned in Linear B tablets. This should be included in the section discussing Dionysos - since it proves Dionysos was not imported later-on to Greece. He was a local god whom the Greeks themselves believed to be imported - but was in fact indigenous. This was a part of his own story, because, being from a wild region such as Thrace linked him more closely to wine and to the wild fringes of civilization, which is precisely the function he fulfilled for the Greeks. This needs to be remedied in this article. The Greek pantheon was settled long before Homer. Hesiod, on the other hand, does do some strange things with mythology. His Theogony makes use of many Near East themes (castration of Uranus, etc.). But he builds on basic elements, he does not invent gods. Pyzmark (talk) 00:21, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Comments

Might be an idea to mention the house hold gods (the furies) and not just the pantheon.212.140.143.211 (talk) 03:42, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

The furies weren't household gods - they were worshiped publicly at Athens as the Eumenides, but almost nowhere else. I can't think of any evidence for the Furies being worshiped in the home - but I might just not be looking at the same text you are. Could you provide a source for that? Pyzmark (talk) 23:54, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Not sure if it is the right place to put it, but I found this page simply copied in http://www.measuroo.com/rel-G/Greek_religion.php It´s unfare! You work hard on it

I think this article needs a section on reciprocal religion and what it means to sacrifice to the gods. The Greeks were not unique in this, but the degree to which this formed the core of their mainstream religious values cannot be overstated. Sacrifice was a way for the community to come together, above all, and so public sacrifice is one of the pillars that the Greek City State rested on. Moreover, the idea of dividing the natural world into distinct spheres and assigning each god a definite and well-defined role is an important point to make. The ancient Greek, when he/she sacrificed, was not just petitioning some personal favour, but actively making sense of the universe and his place in it. The act of sacrifice itself, as a way of placing man in relationship to the gods, to the animals he sacrifices, and to one another, is a crucial act that I don't think has gotten enough attention in this article. Pyzmark (talk) 00:06, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] CULTUS

Dionysus is mentioned in the illiad, though negatively. I cant remeber where though.

Still, changes to the canon remained possible; the Iliad seems to have been unaware of Dionysus, a god whose worship apparently spread after it was written, and who became important enough to be named one of the twelve chief Olympian deities, ousting the ancient goddess of the hearth, Hestia. It has been written by scholars that Dionysus was a "foreign" deity, brought into Greece from outside local cults, external to Greece proper. 2 3 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.140.143.211 (talk) 03:38, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

who were some of the major gods and goddesses?

Shouldn't this page be more correctly titled "Ancient Greek Religion"? - Lor

This page also apparently needs some major cleanup. There are some factual inaccuracies, vague references, and the subject isn't prefaced very well for being such a prominent area of academic interest. Unfortunately, this article (like Roman religion) will require quite a bit of work to mercilessly edited by you guys, so I'll do this when my class-work lets out, and I'll add it to my watchlist. --Kaelus 11:56, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I changed the (Persecution, revival) section to be a little more neutral. Unless some backing sources/examples of persecution leading to the decline in the religion can be given I feel my edits more accurately reflect the tone of the religion's decline. I was hesitant to do anything with regards to the "revival" aspect as I don't know enough on the subject, but I'm a little dubious as to whether it should be even mentioned in this article at all. I can't see how a few dozen (as the Greek Reconstruction link makes mention) practicers constitutes a "revival" of the religion. -- rsagris

I trust the present text is clear enough. Septentrionalis 19:23, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
More like about 10,000 (or more, depending on who you ask) in Greece and probably another 1000 internationally, including at least 500 in the US. Please see the revamped Hellenic polytheism article for more information. I'm not complaining about the current mention, though - the article is on ancient Greek religion, after all. - AdelaMae (talk - contribs) 09:22, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ya know why the Ancient Greeks didn't last?

These guys didn't last cause they made up this stupid religion. God gave them a chance, prosperous times, and then they blew it. Same with the Sumerians and Romans. When you disrespect God, he gets pissed. Remeber, God created you, but you cannot create a God.--The Republican 00:09, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

That's one point of view. The diametrically opposing point of view would observe:
Coincidence?
Yea. thats true Mr. Pagan. The Republican 15:55, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

The Republican, you obviously know that you have a point of view. However, your point of view is worth nothing to the community. Please refrain from wasting time on Wikipedia, as it's doing something far more grand than arguing over whether the Greeks were punished by God or not. Vancar 18:16, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Unlike the Sumerians and Romans, the Greeks did last. See Greece.

What a ponce you are Vancar. I can see you were happy to waste your time castagating a bloke for having his whack. Isn't this called "discussion". And now I mention it, I saw in the link above the comment:

"A major function of religion [Ancient Greek] was the validation of the identity and culture of individual communities. The myths were regarded by many as history rather than allegory, and their embedded genealogies were used by groups to proclaim their divine right to the land they occupied, and by individual families to validate their exalted position in the social order."

We are all bragarts. RMcPhee 14:06, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Attempt to clean up

I broke up the overview paragraph in to three seperate ones base on the three main ideas Storm63640 20:53, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

What the devil is an "aniconic idol?" Isn't that a bit like saying "protestant pope?" Then again, I wonder if an "aniconic idol" is a statue taken to actually BE the God, and not a representation? I doubt it, but it'd be neat.

[edit] Orphism

Shouldn't their be a link to Orphism somewhere on this page. I find it weird that it isn't mentioned anywhere.

[edit] Polytheisit revivals

After reading through this article, I wonder why the author(s) choose to relate current adherents of polytheist belief in Greece as mainly "transient hedonists." I think this is a gross simplification and rather judgmental. It strikes me that this paragraph should be an intellectual transition point, but it seems to serve as a transition from serious discussion to pedantic views of modern pagans. Perhaps move this paragraph to either a new topic altogether (such as syncretic religion in modern Greece, or the manifestation of ancient belief in Orthodox religion) or post a clean up notice so someone with a background in contemporary Greek religion can know to edit the paragraph.

James LaForest —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jlaforest (talk • contribs) 13:40, 24 January 2007 (UTC).

for somthing that is meant to b a primary and secondary school source of information it has much to many strange words for them such as 'thus' my daughter in year 7 had no idea what it meant so i would like someone to please change some of these words they are much to hard.


This is not a primary school source. Go find another site if you wish to have a primary school source. Also, you could try Simple English Wikipedia.

[edit] Name

There an actual name to this religion or did they call it Religion in ancient Greece?--§ Eloc § 01:12, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Actually, no there probably wasn't a name for their religion. After all, as the article says, the same gods may have been recognised pan-hellenically, they often weren't worshipped for the same thing everywhere. I would suggest that if this were the case in a modern religion, these types of differences would be enough to call them multiple religions. Also, the ancient greeks will have had little need to name the religion, they won't have come into contact with that many other large religions. When they did come into contact with significant other religions, there will have been little need to differentiate between the two by name - everyone will have known who worshipped what as religion was such a huge part of their life. --Freedo50 (talk) 22:21, 22 April 2008 (UTC)