Talk:Religion in Nazi Germany

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I wondered if the role of the churches (I know no details but heard rumours) in occupied countries such as Holland and Poland should not be included? Specifically I know many fundamentalist protestants had ideas that god gave power to whoever had it and therefore resistance was not permissable. Admittedly I am not even an amateur historian but a mining engineer... Jan Willem Heemstra

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What is being disputed? Why the flag when there is no discussion?--Cberlet 13:25, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] merger

This page and the Hiteler and the church page deal with essentially the same subject, with much overlap, and neither is overly long. Peregrine981 05:06, 28 August 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Bad section removed

The below section I removed. It stands out from the rest of the article in that its speculations stated as facts, some of which is non-attributed, and others which has significant problems in tone, NPOV, undue weight, and synthesis of sources. True, this might be the opinion of a scholar, but it is by no means an accepted fact or consensus among others. Therefore, if it is to be included it must be properly done, stating this theory with proper weight and qualification--if it is a significant pov. The scholar who presents this POV must be reputable and this POV must be a significant one. I'd like to see the sources in English and the credencials of the author, and quotes about exactlly what he says, as well as what others in the field have to say about him and these speculations. Finally, they must be stated with the proper neutral, encylopedic language. The way its done below, reads as if its an established and authoritative account of the plans Hitler had all mapped out, and does so in the language of a polemic, a debate, i.e. 'and even the smallest influence of the Catholic..." This is not appropriate language and stands out in stark contrast to the tone of the rest of the article, and is not encylopedic. As for its claims, unfortunately, the record is not at all so clear, which makes this deceptively misrepresentative and POV pushing. Removed secion below:Giovanni33 22:33, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

"Hitler already had plans for the Roman Catholic Church, according to which the church was supposed to "eat from the hands of the government." As a first step Hitler wanted to force German Catholics to abolish priestly celibacy and accept a nationalisation of all church property, as had happened in France in 1905. After the "Final Victory" of National Socialism, all monastic orders and religious congregations were to be dissolved, and even the smallest influence of the Catholic Church upon education of children was to be forbidden. Hitler proposed to reduce vocations to the priesthood by forbidding seminaries from receiving applicants before their 25th birthdays, hoping that these men would marry beforehand, during the time (18 - 25 years) in which they were obliged to work in military or labour service. Along with this process, the Church's sacraments would have to be revised and changed to so-called "Lebensfeiern", non-Christian celebrations of different periods of life.

The aim was slowly to dismantle the institutions of the Catholic Church and fit the institution itself into a new National Socialist German state religion, because Hitler still firmly believed, that religion and belief in God was something "the simple people need." But since the "laws of evolution" - upon which a new religion would have to be founded - were not yet precisely researched, according to Hitler, it was decided to keep these changes and laws on hold, pending the final victory.[1] Hitler and Goebbels also recognised that such changes might create a third front of Catholics against their regime in Germany itself. Nevertheless in his diary Goebbels openly wrote about the "traitors of the Black International who again stabbed our glorious government in the back by their criticism", by which he meant the indirectly or actively resisting Catholic clergymen (who wore black cassocks).

I've removed the above again, which is badly in need of fixing if it is to be kept at all, for the same reasons as I explained above. Additionally, the sources seem to be problematic. While Dr. Hürten is a respected scholar and his "German Catholics" is an accepted text, not all of his theories have broad support. In particular, the "pet theory" cited is controversial, and speculative. Also, Burt Natter is not a professional historian, but rather a popular journalist/essayist who is explicitly called an "amateur historian." Between these facts, it is a bare minimum to proper to refer to the theory as speculative or, at the very least, highly controversial. I can find almost no supporting reference to the theory beyond these authors. Can anyone find additional references that are not slavish to Dr. Hürten where the theory is the primary focus, whether supporting or dissenting?Giovanni33 23:05, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
There is actually no reason to remove the section. You say Mr Hürten is a respected scholar but then you delete him. If he needs qualifying, qualify him, if he needs attribution, attribute him. However it is a bit hypocritical to remove this while retain other stuff without attribution in line with your POV and add more of this.
Ah, and the other changes are bad too, pushing the POV that you would like to push. I will tackle a few problems in the former wording. I will also remove false claims like a diminishing of the Centre Party (which was stable in elections). There is also no reason to remove Mit brennender Sorge.
Str1977 (smile back) 07:57, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for responding. I'm fine with the other changes you made. In fact, I think its an improvement. However, you don't really address the problems with that other section. True, I say Hurten is a respected scholar, however you ignore the reason I've stated why he should still be removed--unless you think I"m wrong about that. I'm very open to be shown I'm wrong. To me this seems like a fringe theory that is without any support among historians. Sure, I can qualify that, but I"m not sure that is the case. I just can't find any other sources that even comment upon this, and find that strange. Also, I can't read German. :) But, I take it you don't object to me removing the Natter part, since he is not a historian, as was claimed? My biggest other problem is the language that is used, which states speculative theories as hard facts, but you are correct that this can be fixed. I will try to do that. I believe you once said that even if a scholar is a qualified one, if he is engaging in pure speculation, it should still be removed. While I don't necessarily agree, if he is the ONLY scholar to offer such speculation then I tend to agree with you on principal as a practice. I know you will say that it is when it fits my POV. So, I will keep him and what he says but try to fix it up to WP standards of acceptablitlity. I welcome you to help me to get it right, incase I don't. Thanks.Giovanni33 18:06, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
Ok, changes effected.Giovanni33 18:44, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
I can live with most of your changes. However, the correct name should be used (so no Heinz Hutzen please). Also there should be no belittling introduction (a later note would be fine). Finally, information about the career of a professor belongs into an article on that person, not here. Str1977 (smile back) 07:40, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Thanks, I only added back an abridged form of who the professor is, because we have no article on him--no link to take the reader to learn about him. So I added: "professor emeritus at the Catholic University of Eichstaett." This is necessary to give the reader a proper understanding of who is advancing this view.Giovanni33 20:59, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Merge from Nazi Occultism

I merged the short section on the Prayer to Hitler from Nazi occultism into this article. This basically was a no-brainer, because the prayer had been taken from the German Wikipedia article corresponding to this one originally and because the Prayer to Hitler as "Political Messiah" is not the kind of semi-religiosity that Nazi occultism is about. You might want to take another look at Nazi occultism for yet another reason. There is now a longer section on Esotericism in Nazi Germany and I am not sure were it would belong better. -Zara1709 07:13, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Das Schwarze Korps Eugenio Pacelli Judenfreund Feind des Nationalsozialismus.jpg

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BetacommandBot 05:19, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] improvements and expansion

This article needs to be improved to include sections on the connections between nazism and other religions besides Christiantiy. Yahel Guhan 06:51, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The role of atheism in nazism?

The introduction mentions "the role of atheism", but at least at a quick speed-reading there's nothing related to atheism or implicit suggestion. The closest thing seems to be deism, which is yet pretty far from atheism. --Extremophile (talk) 04:07, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Nazi Mysticism

This connection is very important to the fundamental ideology of hitler and thus the nazis. i think it needs expansion. it is the core of the bigger picture for the 'dream' of the third reich to cleanse europe of jews and to construct a new world order and ideology of a master race, etc etc. 24.60.66.216 (talk) 03:42, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Bernhard Stempfle, a Priest?

This source - http://www.churchinhistory.org/pages/booklets/rise(n)-2.htm - seems to suggest his priesthood is in doubt.

Is there any better source that shows he was ever ordained? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jkspratt (talk • contribs) 18:30, 22 February 2008 (UTC)