Talk:Religion in India

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Religion in India was a good article nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There are suggestions below for improving the article. Once these are addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.

^{Reviewed version: July 16, 2007}

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To-do list for Religion in India:	edit · history · watch · refresh
get rid of weasel words in the article Reach consensus on structure of the article. Expand the lead. Add figure/map in "Demographics". Add content to "History"; summarise "History". Add content to "Influence of religion on social life". ~~Add content to "Religious figures"~~ Consider creating a section "Influence of religion on national life" (or a similar name) which shall include topics like Religion and politics, religion and media, religion and education, communal harmony etc Either create a separate section of problem, or, mention problems in appropriate places like "History", "Influence of religion on national life" etc. Remain cautious about citing references, and citing them in proper way. Remain cautious about the summary style. If necessary, create appropriate daughter articles. Copy edit. Peer review.
Priority 1 (top)

[edit] Sathya Sai Baba

I don't think Sathya Sai Baba should be present in this article, at least without some solid qualification. It is true that his cult uses varied religious imagery, but that is a far cry from actually understanding the many and significant ways in which the major Indian Religions can not very well be reconciled.

Besides, the way the entry is worded is very ambiguous. It forgets to mention the strong suspicions that surround the person of Sathya Sai Baba, (as seen on his own article) and suggests that he is somehow recognized and accepted by all the major religions mentioned in the article. That is arguable at best. Islam, at the very least, is known for having little interest in mixing with other religions. If they made an exception for Sathya Sai Baba then this is major news and would create quite a comotion. I believe that they did not, however, and Sai Baba and his followers are just proclaiming what they want to believe in regardless of fact or permission.

I would personally prefer Sai Baba to be removed entirely from the article, but a simple rewording would probably suffice.

Best,

Luis.

I re-worded it but I think it is better to mention also some other Indian new religious movement to keep it balanced. By the way, the original Sai Baba did have both Muslim and Hindu followers and the Muslims allowed mixing in the case of Shirdi Sai Baba. Amazingly the statement of Sathya Sai Baba and his followers is not entirely untrue. Sathya Sai Baba does have some Muslim followers but they are few and mostly Shia Muslims or followers from small Muslim sects. Andries 19:21, 4 Feb 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Tribal religions

Shouldn't there be some mention of India's tribal religions here? I would add the details myself, but I was here LOOKING for those details ;D

Good idea but I hardly know anything about India tribal religion. Andries 19:02, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Just thought I'd comment: unfortunately or fortunately, whatever, Christianity, Hinduism and Islam have all vied for the membership of tribals. Islamic conquerors of long ago converted them, Christian missionaries of today are very active all over the country trying to convert them, and Hindus run around telling them that their beliefs are really just a subset of Hinduism. There is a tribal commission in India today in charge of trying to maintain their autonomy from foreign (i.e. non-tribal) religions. Maybe later I'll try to work on it --LordSuryaofShropshire 22:58, Aug 31, 2004 (UTC)

I added the section Tribal religions in India and many more religions which were missing. some help will be appreciated to explain more about those religions. I am sure there are many more religions in India which we are missing.

[edit] Bhagwan Sri Sathya Sai Baba

Its always interesting to note that Sri Sathya Sai Baba becomes a point of discussion wherever the name appears!!!

Probably, Luis, may not be aware of the grassroot service work undertaken by the followers/devotees/fans of Bhagwan Sri Sathya Sai Baba which is not normally reported in the mainstream media as the volunteers would not like to be 'limelighted'. Luis, you should certainly make a visit to Puttaparthy and you will soon understand from where the "suspicion" surrounding SSSB arises from. Also, your query on Muslims' belief in SSSB too will be answered partially. Also, have patience and keep watching/observing closely SSSB and the developments at Puttaparthy in the next six years. Your query will be completely answered.

Please check the following link which is a recent story that is published in one of the leading newspapers of India on April 25, 2005.

http://cities.expressindia.com/fullstory.php?newsid=126199

There was always people around the world who condemns and criticises those who shared their Love and Affection with others. In a world where Jesus Christ was crucified what else can one expect? The people who throw dirt on others do so because the ego in them rebels against the slow and steady growth of Love in them.

Check this too...its an article that came on another leading daily in India on May 22, 2005.

http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/holnus/007200505221568.htm

Two other media reports that came in the end of May 2005.

http://www.canindianews.com/news/News/NewsArticle.asp?sdkjshdhsdkjs=sdhsjdhsdlsdjlksjdl;sd&NewsID=-643194774&sdhskjdhskjd=sdhsjkdhsjkdh

http://www.newindpress.com/NewsItems.asp?ID=IEA20050530025143&Page=A&Title=Southern+News+-+Andhra+Pradesh&Topic=0

http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/181_1391312,00410010.htm

A report that came in the second week of June 2005

http://www.newindpress.com/NewsItems.asp?ID=IEK20050613014508

[edit] Number of Sikhs

the number of sikhs given here (35 million) does not match the numbers in the sikhism article at Sikhism#Sikhs around the world (23 million). Both figures cannot be correct. Tomer ^TALK 22:20, August 31, 2005 (UTC)

The number of Sikhs in India won't exceed more then 25 million for sure. - India1989

[edit] attack and Invitation.

Many Hindus and Jains who do not belive in Idol worships invited Muslims to attack and distroy the Hindu, Buddha and Jain Temples. Muhammad Gazanavi was invited to distroy Somnath Temple. Many encloypedias say that Jains were more interested to distroy Hindu and Jain Temples. Will any reader of this discussion give some fact on this subject?

vkvora 15:16, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Arrangements

Isn't it good to arrange religions according to the alphabetical order. This is not an article deals with Chronology or time line of one particular group's history and culture. It was dealing with many diverse systems independent to each other. So as usual it is good to arrange alphabetically. - Paul 18:40, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ravidasi not included

While looking up more on the topic in wikipedia I came across, Ravidasi. Should this be included on the page? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Kedar Borhade (talk • contribs) 22:48, 27 January 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Proposal for structural reorganisation

Here is a proposal for structural reorganisation of the article. The article may be organised under the following sections:

History
Major religions
Pilgrimages
Religious holidays
Religious thinkers
Problems

At present, the article just describes the major religions in India. However, the scope of the article is far greater. A summarisation of the present article will fit in the section "Major religions" of the proposed structure. Please comment. Regards.--Dwaipayan (talk) 09:25, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Good Idea. Describing the religions should not be the actual purpose of this article. Instead how & in what forms people follow religions in India, their problems, their social issues etc should be the focus.

Also the following topics should be included:

Religion & the media.
Religion & vote bank politics.
Secular traditions & religious (in)tolerance.

Also demographics section should be expanded to include statistics of various sects, if possible. --Shahab 18:37, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Automated Peer Review

The following suggestions were generated by a semi-automatic javascript program, and might not be applicable for the article in question.

Please expand the lead to conform with guidelines at Wikipedia:Lead. The article should have an appropriate number of paragraphs as is shown on WP:LEAD, and should adequately summarize the article.^[?]
Per Wikipedia:Context and Wikipedia:Manual of Style (dates), months and days of the week generally should not be linked. Years, decades, and centuries can be linked if they provide context for the article.^[?]
There may be an applicable infobox for this article. For example, see Template:Infobox Biography, Template:Infobox School, or Template:Infobox City.^[?] (Note that there might not be an applicable infobox; remember that these suggestions are not generated manually)
There are a few sections that are too short and that should be either expanded or merged.
There are a few occurrences of weasel words in this article- please observe WP:AWT. Certain phrases should specify exactly who supports, considers, believes, etc., such a view.
- is considered
- might be weasel words, and should be provided with proper citations (if they already do, or are not weasel terms, please ~~strike~~ this comment).^[?]
Watch for redundancies that make the article too wordy instead of being crisp and concise. (You may wish to try Tony1's redundancy exercises.)
- While additive terms like “also”, “in addition”, “additionally”, “moreover”, and “furthermore” may sometimes be useful, overusing them when they aren't necessary can instead detract from the brilliancy of the article. This article has 13 additive terms, a bit too much.
- Vague terms of size often are unnecessary and redundant - “some”, “a variety/number/majority of”, “several”, “a few”, “many”, “any”, and “all”. For example, “~~All~~ pigs are pink, so we thought of ~~a number of~~ ways to turn them green.”
Please ensure that the article has gone through a thorough copyediting so that it exemplifies some of Wikipedia's best work. See also User:Tony1/How to satisfy Criterion 1a.^[?]

You may wish to browse through User:AndyZ/Suggestions for further ideas. Thanks, Shahab 18:23, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Information needed to be added

Notable places of worship (should include plgrimage sites).
Religious leaders.
Economic Social disparity (if exists) between religious communities.
Creation of Pakistan, Communal riots, Secular ethos of India.

This article needs to move away from being Religions in India to become Religion in India in the sense that it needs to focus more on religion from the Life in India angle. Cheers.--Shahab 06:15, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Absolutely agree with Shahab. The title is Religion in India, not Religions in India! The section on pilgrimages would include notable places of worships; communal riots, socio-economic disparities may come under something in line of "problems". Creation of Pakistan would be covered in History. Please help make this article at least a GA (hopefully a FA!). It's nice to see many people visiting the article and editing. Regards.--Dwaipayan (talk) 06:25, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Some more points that the article should address:

How does the Indian constitution and civil/criminal law treat religion ?
How does Indian educational system treat religion ?
What are Indian populations attitude towards religion ? For this see for example, the following Pew Global Attitudes Project reports
- Report 1 (Search for India on the page)
- Report 2 (see page 49 and 73 of the PDF file; page 39 and 63 of report ... search does not work on document)

Good to see this article get some (non-trollish) attention ! Abecedare 06:56, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Please suggest some sections where these things can be added. While the treatment of religion by law can be put in a straight-forward way, am a bit hesitant about the education. What do you exactly want to state? That secular attitude is sometimes violated in education, with the government in power sometimes trying to introduce their point of views? News reports of such incidents should be available. Regards.--Dwaipayan (talk) 09:48, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Actually, I was thinking of even more basic information that may be obvious to Indians but not to wikipedia's larger audience. For example:

Law: I think we should start by mentioning that India's constitution declares it a secular country with no state-religion; grants right to practice any religion; has a uniform criminal code though the civil code (i.e. laws governing marriage, divorce etc) vary. Only once we have laid this background of the rule, can we sensibly talk about the controversies and exceptions (Shah Bano, Uniform Civil Code, religion in politics etc)
Education: Again we should first try to establish the background first, as to who sets the syllabus (non-religious organizations like NCERT etc ) and provide statistics, if available, about how many educational institutions are run by different sectarian organizations, and how many students get formal "religious" education (my guess is that this percentage would be minuscule). Only then, should we talk about how the system does not always work as it is ostensibly supposed to.

I agree with DaGizza's comment below that we need to think about the sections needed in this article. I'll be happy to provide more input but have to rush off now ... will be back later ! Abecedare 13:35, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Hi! I went ahead and added a section "Constitution and law" in the very beginning. Please see. Regards.--Dwaipayan (talk) 14:16, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Nice job, Dwaipayan! I'll try to look up more references for education and other sections of the article and add info. in the next day or two. Cheers. Abecedare 14:44, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Percentages

The percentages in this article don't agree with each other. See these examples (found in this version):

From the lead: Christianity by 2.4%
From the table: Christians, 24,080,016, 2.34%
From the pie graph: Christianity — 2.3%
From the text: Christianity is the third largest religion of India making up 2–2.9% of the population

Another example:

From the lead: Islam is practiced by 13.4% of all Indians
From the table: Muslims, 144,005,446, 14%
From the pie graph: Islam — 13.1%
From the text: 160 million Muslims in India (the second largest population in the world, after Indonesia), which is 16.4% of the population

Shouldn't these percentages be uniform throughout the article? Happy editing, [sd] 11:31, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, and IMO it should follow 2001 census data. The pie chart should be made according to that data. Latest estimations may be mentioned, but census data should be adhered to.--Dwaipayan (talk) 12:19, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

The demographics table has been updated per the census results (source — one needs to download the zipped spreadsheet to see the data). The data elsewhere in the article has also been made uniform. (please check if I have omitted something leading to discrepancies). The pie chart (which did not corroborate with the data perfectly) has been removed. Someone please help to create a pie chart based on the demographics table. Regards.--Dwaipayan (talk) 13:23, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Major religions"

What exactly is the purpose of this section. It is a mixture of history, geographic distribution and general info. I believe the structure of the article needs to be discussed before any changes are made to the content. We don't want the sections to overlap in what they say. Each section needs to flow with the one preceding it and the one following it. Personally, I believe we should remove this section and perhaps create a geographic distribution section. Gizza^Chat ^© 12:58, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

"Major religions" is supposedly a summary of Major religions in India. You are correct in pointing out the section has rather become a mixture of history, geographic distribution and general info. The primary goal was to give general information. It seems that general information (what are Hinduism, Islam, Buddhism etc) and geographic distribution should be covered here. Historical informations should not be in this section (that's dealt with/will be dealt with in "History"). Please comment.

However, I do not believe in one concern raised by you. The content of the article should also be enhanced besides deciding a stable structure. The article being this week's INCOTW has begun to attract some visits, and good edits. Both structure and content are important. For example, under "Pilgrimages", a thorough description of Buddhist pilgrimages were added. Hopefully pilgrimages of other religions will also be added soon. Then (or simultaneously) we can summarise the section, and create daughter articles as necessary. let the article enjoy whatever attention it is having, and the content increase; stabilisation of structure (which, I repeat, is equally important) can be achieved as the content is enhanced. Comments are welcome. Regards.--Dwaipayan (talk) 13:19, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Fair enough. We can rearrange the information after it is added. I said it because on the other religion related article I have worked on (mainly Hinduism), many editors look at each section independently and lose track of the article as a whole. This leads to the article to become 100kb+ and huge amounts of information are repeated two or three times unnecessarily throughout the page. I suppose since this article is not even 30kb yet, it would be alright to expand content and structure it accordingly later on. Gizza^Chat ^© 22:13, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Major Thinkers" section

The title is a little strange to me - it sounds almost like 'movers and shakers'. Maybe 'Religious reformers'? Does there even need to be a section about specific religious reformers? If so, then it seems like it should be in the History section. Also the word spiritualist (look it up) has a very different meaning than what must be intended here. ॐ Priyanath talk 01:55, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Religious reformers or religious figures definitely sounds better. I also agree with your second statement that it tends to have similar information to the history section, because the major thinkers impacted on the religious history of India. "Religion and politics" is also a strange name. Maybe that should change to "religous conflict." We could then move the last paragraph of the history section into there as well. Gizza^Chat ^© 04:11, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

As said by DaGizza Religious Figures is probably the best name. Not all of the people mentioned are reformers, for example the Sufi saints did not create new systems, the same is true for the Christian, Buddhist figures. Contemporary religious leaders should also be included in this section. Religious conflict won't probably be quite accurate because that section was aimed at describing the relationship between politics and religion as existing in India (vote bank, hindutva philosophy etc) and not only conflicts. Conflicts should be in differnt section titled Problems or something like that. The idea of the title was taken from Religion in the United Kingdom. Cheers.--Shahab 07:22, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Do you think this section should contain a sentence or two about contemporary religious figures? Something along the lines, "Influential religious voices in contemporary India include the Shankaracharyas among Hindus, the Imam of Jama Masjid among Muslims and the Dalai Lama Tenzin Gyatso among Tibetan Buddhists ?" I realize that these persons (except possibly for the Dalai Lama) are not prominent enough to be mentioned in the respective religion's articles, but they may be relevant from the Life in India perspective (for example, the media typically interviews these persons to get the representative religious POV). Of course, we'll need some citations to back any claim. Abecedare 01:41, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] New section and subsection(s)

Hi all. Started a section named "Influence of religion on social life" (please suggest any better name if you think the name is not suitable). The first subsection of this section is "Daily activities"—highlighting the daily activities characteristic of different religions in India. Found out a good source for Hindu daily activities, and copied some stuffs from there. So, this subsection would need copyediting in order to avoid copyright violation (however, Library of Congress is a .gov site of US government, so copyright status is probably pretty flexible). Added some stuff of Islamic rituals which I was aware of. Please help adding stuffs on other religions.

Besides "Daily activities", this section includes "Pilgrimages" and "Religious festivals" (previously independent sections). One plan is to add information on life-cycle realted activities (birth, marriage, death rituals) of different religions. Hope this edits will give more "Life in India" angle to the article. Please comment and edit. Regards.--Dwaipayan (talk) 12:28, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Right to divorce for Shia women

Mumbai: In a surprise move, the All India Muslim Shia Law Board on Sunday announced to give Shia women the right to divorce and made marriage a legal contract that would be enforceable in a court of law. Releasing a new Shia Nikahnama here, Maulana Mohammad Athar, president of the AIMSLB said, "The new undertakings are being made mandatory on humanitarian grounds."

[1]

Can't figure out where to put this or whether this belongs here at all. --Shahab 18:35, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Ummmm...probably it does not belong here, at least not in the present structure. It's too specific. May be somewhere in Islam in India?--Dwaipayan (talk) 19:02, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Muharram and holi image

IMO, Muharram (or any other festival) does not merit so much space in the article as provided by this edit. This article should be summarised as far as possible. Only names of the festivals, and maximum one sentence on pan-Indian festivals (Diwali, Eid, Muharram, Christmas) would suffice. Please comment. The holi image is not taken in India. That does not preclude its inclusion, but it will be better if we can find out an image taken in India during a significant festival. Regards.--Dwaipayan (talk) 19:15, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Only mentioned Muharram because it is unique in character as it is not celebratory in nature. Its procession has played its part in igniting unrest too sometimes. Also to an extent it is not a global feature. Summarisation is OK, but I feel that it is the Daily Activities section which should be shortened, if not removed. The info it gives is appplicable to same religion people throughout the world. For example even Muslims in US would observe the 5 daily prayers etc. What is unique about Muslims in India? A good idea would be to put any unique info on daily life activity as an intro in the Influence of religion on social life section. What do you think? Cheers.--Shahab 19:30, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Regarding the comments on "Daily activities", yes, anything unique should be there. I added those stuffs just because those were available with reference! If consensus is removal, no problems. However, I thought it would give that Life in India angle. After the addition, it read somewhat stale! Personally I know little about the rituals, and could not find out references either, so could not add much. Any idea about unique Indian rituals?

Regarding Muharram, my opinion is deletion of such long addition. I don't have any idea, but is Tazia relatively unique to India?--Dwaipayan (talk) 19:51, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

I thought that it was only relatively unique (and practised maybe in Iran too), but this site says that it is restricted only to Indian Shiites. (Also the site raises an interesting point of it having been inspired by similar processions of Ganesh.) The Taziya should be kept, maybe in some other section, as it a ritual unique to India. Can't think of any other unique Indian rituals at present, but maybe can find out some Sufi ones. By the way can you take a look at the demographics. The data in the 2 tables don't match exactly. I don't know the source of the second table. Lifted it directly from Demographics of India. Cheers--Shahab 20:06, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Found a site about rituals :Hindu rituals,Muslim rituals. Also see Religion in India. Cheers.--Shahab 20:49, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Partially solved the problem of the second table of statistics. Still, some entries need references. Will see the links provided by you tomorrow. Regards.--Dwaipayan (talk) 21:39, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Oh! The links uses the same data (and even the same language) as provided by the Library of Congress site (the reference that has been used so far in creating the "Daily activities" section). I have not gone through the links thoroughly though. But it seems there would be nothing new :( We'll have to try more.--Dwaipayan (talk) 21:42, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Pilgrimages

To be pedantic, a pilgrimage is different from a Holy city. Many of the holy places mentioned are piligrimages as such. Some are but in many of them the "journey" isn't significant, just the place itself. So I think the name should be changed to holy cites or holy sites. We could therefore talk about both pilgrimages sites and general holy places. Does anybody have any objections? Gizza^Chat ^© 22:25, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree with the idea that the terms "pilgrimage sites" or "holy sites" would be more general. Not all holy sites are in cities, I suppose. And perhaps not all holy sites attract pilgrims. In some traditions the act of making the journey, and the way the journey is conducted is of greatest importance. In these traditions the pilgrims do various types of penance on the way, preparing themselves spiritually for arrival. I seem to recall some theological debate about this pertaining to the question of what happens to pilgrims who die on the way, never reaching the goal. I cannot find the citation, but I think that the verdict was that their faithful effort was as good as reaching the goal. Don't put this into the article, of course, as I have no citation and may be mis-remembering the idea. Buddhipriya 00:11, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

I suppose what happens to a pilgrim dieing on the way differs on the religion. I know according to some traditions, death in Varanasi makes your soual attain Moksha just as Muslim dieing in Mecca makes them go to heaven. But even if we find citations, I think the information may be too specific for it to be added. Gizza^Chat ^© 01:27, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] References

The following references in the article seem very iffy to me:

I think they all fail the WP:RS requirements, and should be replaced by better sources. Any objections ? Abecedare 01:20, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Usually blogs and geocities sites are not considered as reliable source. However, I am not sure about the South Asia Analysis Group. I have seen papers from that site being used in other articles.--Dwaipayan (talk) 05:50, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

I have deleted the other 3 sources. South Asia Analysis Group seems genuine, and while the source technically may be considered self-published, it does not present any redfalg issues - so I don't have any objections to leaving it in.

That said, I think some parts of the Religion and Politics section (especially the third paragraph) provides insufficient context for a general reader and probably sufferes from recentism; for example, the sentences "During an election campaign in Uttar Pradesh, the BJP allegedly released an inflammatory CD targeting Muslims. This was condemned by the Communist Party of India (Marxist) as playing the worst kind of vote bank politics." Needs to be looked into eventually. Abecedare 06:24, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Atheism

There has been a strong tradition of atheism in India. The dravidian movement is based on rationalism. We need to incorporate this in the article. sumal 14:15, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Religion map

Id be willing to make a map if someone can give me some reference material -- ^{PlaneMad|YakYak} 16:25, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Hi, thank you for being here. I was planning to contact you :) Anyway, what do you plan to build? I mean how religions can be depicted? (I hardly have any idea on maps, so please excuse me if I sound foolish) --Dwaipayan (talk) 17:07, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Hmm, I have got something. Please see this.--Dwaipayan (talk) 17:10, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Religion in India and Carvark

Please, add something about Religion and Carvark. vkvora 18:43, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Good point, but it will need skillful writing so that undue space is not given. Will try. Regards.--Dwaipayan (talk) 19:17, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Tried. Please see if it sounds ok.--Dwaipayan (talk) 20:07, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

I expanded it a bit and worked on the citation format. Ideally, books mentioned in footnotes should be listed in the References section, as they may come up multiple times. Then the authors can be cited just using author name and page number. I also fixed the date for the codification of philosphies, which was after 200 AD. :) Buddhipriya 01:12, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Used Template:Harvard reference for the book references.--Dwaipayan (talk) 11:58, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Schools of thought

Shouldn't this article have data on various sects or schools of thought within the principle religions and their number of adherents. Another thing missing is a list of religious institutions. Also, can some experiencd wikipedian please make a todo list for coordinating efforts. That will help. Cheers.--Shahab 13:23, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Major school of thoughts within the religions and their number of adherents (if data is available) should first be added to the article Major religions in India. Then some of the significant sects (or school of thoughts) may be added in the "Major religions" sections in this article.

What do you exactly mean by religious institutions? Significant temples and mosques? Or missions like Ramakrishna Mission etc? IMO, if you mean the later, it should can be added here in this article.

Will try to make a to do box. Regards.--Dwaipayan (talk) 16:53, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

By institutions I mean thought schools, like Sanatan Dharma etc in Hinduism (I really don't know the principal schools in Hinduism) and Deobandi, Barelvi etc in Islam. But I guess reliable data concerning them would be hard to obtain. The least we can do is just name them in the demographics section. Here is my proposal for the structure:

1. History

1.1 Religious figures

2. Major religions

3. Demographics

4. Religion and the Indian state

4.1 Legal position

4.2 Interference by the state (Here we should have the Shah Bano

case, saffronisation allegations, Laws to check conversion etc.)

5. Influence on the people

5.1 Daily activites

5.2 Special occasions

5.3 Rituals and pilgrimages

6. Problems

6.1 Communal strife

6.2 Vote bank politics

Please comment. Cheers.--Shahab 18:25, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Pretty neat. Comments— (1) "Special occasions" - what would this encompass besides festivals? (2) Problems may or may not need subsections. However, that can be considered later. (3) Interference by the state - Ummm...Ok! Unless someone suggest a better alternative name, we can go with it. (4) Personally I would like to either have "Religious figures" as a separate section or not having it at all. Because, "History" is very important, and rather not have an apparently unrelated subsection. If needed, "religious figures" in its present form (just mentions the names of the figures) can be deleted. Some sentences describing the significance and influence of major religious figures may be added to some other sections such as History itself, or, Influence on the people. IMO, "religious figures" is not a very important section. What do others think?--Dwaipayan (talk) 18:58, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Regarding "schools of thought" take care not to confuse Indian philosophy with Religion in India, as philosophical schools are only one part of much larger picture that also includes ritual practices, devotional trends, etc. I would avoid putting much detail about the philosophical schools here because it will be easier to maintain it if it is in the detail articles for Indian philosophy or Hindu philosophy, which have overlaps already. Buddhipriya 19:06, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Special Occassion can include festivals, marriage and other religious ceremonies. Maybe a line about the tragic outcomes which blind dogma sometimes leads to. I agree with your view religious figure names should be included into history section (with a link to the main article). Contemporary religious leader names can be put in the intro to Influence on the people. Let's see what others think. Cheers.--Shahab 19:23, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Aren't many "rituals" also daily (or weekly, yearly :-)) activities? I prefer the rituals be discussed in that sub-section. And an obvious point I would like to make is to not give undue weight to the last ten years in say, the communal strife section. Daily needs to be changed to a broader word, so weekly and months prayers/fasts can be added. Yearly events can go in special occasions. The only word I can think of at the moment is periodic, but there must be a better word. Gizza^Chat ^© 05:15, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] History

Currently it is weak on Jainism and Sikhism, both of which originated and have most of their followers in India. Gizza^Chat ^© 07:21, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] GAN review comments

First sentence - "Religion in India comprises beliefs and traditions that rank among the world's most ancient and varied." - can be rewritten to bring the message better. If nothing works, leave it as it currently is.
what does "is the most important minority religion" mean? Sounds like POV to me.
Suggestion: Use timelines to introduce various religions that exists in India. That would seem to have a better flow
"have long had a worldwide presence" - once again, POV material. Either be precise or give reference to this phrase
please put the "secular" declaration by constitutoin in context. If i am not too mistaken, the same was introduced through amendment in 1976. however the same is not evident with the statement here.
What happens in a few months/years from now when Sonia Gandhi, Manmohan Singh and Abdul Kalam retire from the picture? Do we stop having religious diversity. It is better to use a historic reference i.e., Muslims (Egs for Indian president/PM); Christian (Presidents/Prime Ministers); Sikh (Presidents & PMs) and other religion. Please avoid the use of Sonia as neither she nor her post as Chairperson, UPA has no constitutional powers. If anyone needs to be added, it is BR Ambedkar who coverted to Buddhism.
"Evidence of prehistoric religion in India is sparse." - Violates Show, don't tell policy. Remove it as the para allows the person to come to a conclusion rather than forcing him into one.
"After 200 CE, several schools of thought were formally codified in Indian philosophy, including Samkhya, Yoga, Nyaya, Vaisheshika, Purva-Mimamsa and Vedanta.[9] " - doesn't this sentence skip time (200 CE material mentioned during 500BCE data) or the article's timelines needs to be modified to be kept around in that timeframe.
Copyedits required to the History section. (Eg: The para on Islam starts with a sentence on the decline of Buddhism. The same could have been the last sentence in the previous para)
"Sufism (a mystic tradition of Islam)." - the wikilink for sufism starts with "mystic tradition of islam". then why do we need the info in brackets. please remove them
Need to expand on this - "Although historical evidence suggests the presence of Christianity in India since the first century, it became popular following European colonisation and missionary efforts.". A single sentence is no just way of explaining 2% of Indian population
When discussing about the history of religions of India, why is this para turning up "Communalism has played a key role in shaping the religious history of modern India ..." If anywhere, it should be a subsection in "Sectarianism". It can be titled - "Communal partition"
Move the "See Also" in the Demographics section to the end of the section.
"Islam is a monotheistic religion centred around the belief in one ..." - make it into a seperate para
As of 2007, India was home to 147 " - change "was" to "is"
"..147 million Muslims, the world's third-largest Muslim population after Indonesia and Pakistan" - provide numbers for Indonesia and Pakistan
"Buddhists form majority populations in the Indian states of Sikkim, Arunachal Pradesh, and the Ladakh region of Jammu and Kashmir" make it into a seperate para
" Jainism is a nontheistic, dharmic religion and philosophy originating in Iron Age India." - make it the first sentence of the next para
"The preamble to the Constitution of India proclaimed India a "sovereign socialist secular democratic republic". - remove the term "secular" and pur the sentence in context (original constituion). The next sentence on secular/1976/const. amendment completes the overall picture
The law section needs to be expanded to include the various laws specific to religious practices and various struggles for reforms in these laws. The Hindu marraige act, Shah Bano Case, Muslim Personal Law.
The image of buddhist dancer in the section on RITUALS is not appropriate
The ceremonies section is pretty weak as it lacks depth of information. There is no coverage of weddings - differences in weddings across various parts of India; burial ceremonies - muslims bury their loved ones; Hindus cremate etc; the practice of SATI in earlier days and the current constitutional ban on the practice
Pilgrimage sites looks more like a list. It will be better to make it into a table with the following columns - Name of temple; main deity(s); Religion; Description of the Lord. Eg: Tirumala Venkateswara Temple; Lord Venkateswara (Believed to be a form of Lord Vishnu); Hinduism; Vishnu is worshipped as Venkateswara in Tirumala, Andhra Pradesh. The temple is situated on a hill and the regular darshan lasts 5 seconds. The temple is believed to be the most visited pilgrimage in India and second to Vatican City across the globe.
Festivals can also be timelined as per the occurance in the annual calendar (range can be given where possible. For eg: Diwali is Early Oct - Mid Nov)
Why is the article mum on the subject of "Religious conversions". The same needs to be covered here as well
The politics section needs clean-up as issues whose roots lie elsewhere is described here. For eg: Shah Bano case needs to be discussed in Law section; the 2002 Gujarat riots in the communal violence section; Ram Temple and Babri Masjid in communal violence. They all had political impact but the main identity of these issues is not communal but they were reflected in politics
"During an election campaign in Uttar Pradesh, the BJP released an inflammatory CD targeting Muslims.[54] This was condemned by the Communist Party of India (Marxist) as playing the worst kind of vote bank politics.[55] " - reeks of WP:Recentism. This sentence can be done away with.
Consolidating all "Need references"
- Either here or somewhere in main article, i would need reference for both these phrases - "India is one of the most religiously diverse nations in the world; religion plays a central role in the lives of most Indians"
- Though inter-religious marriages are generally taboo, Indians are generally tolerant of other religions and retain a secular outlook. Inter-community clashes have never found widespread support in the social mainstream, and it is generally perceived that its causes are political rather than ideological in nature.

In summary, the article has a great start and is a potential FA topic. However the coverage of the various topics in the article is very shallow and needs more data/content as well as copyedit. --Kalyan 11:06, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Though inter-religious marriages are generally taboo, I disagree. Most Indians don't mind now. I know many people (even in my neighborhood) who marry members outside their own faith. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.227.156.156 (talk) 11:04, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Hinduism bars beef consumption. It does not bar consumption of beef, Hindus are advised not to eat it but it isn't some compulsory norm. 220.227.156.156 11:09, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] British Empire

I wonder if someone could compose a section in the article that describes how the British colonists failed to properly Christianize India. What efforts were undertaken? Which efforts succeeded and which failed? What effect on the religious landscape of India did people like Mother Teresa have on the country's religions? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.186.251.55 (talk) 21:34, 17 January 2008 (UTC) india is a morden state.IN MEANING ITS ALSO A COUNTRY

[edit] Atheists

I removed that sentence since the source cited is not "reliable"-Bharatveer (talk) 08:35, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

I have added cn tag to monotheism in Christianity. The sentence should be suitably amended to reflect the fact that Not every body except themselves recognises it as monotheist.-Bharatveer (talk) 05:55, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

This has been earlier discussed in Christianity talk page. Cheers Wiki San Roze ^†αLҝ 06:13, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

That it was discussed in that article will not solve the issue here, Please modify the sentence to reflect that issue or else re-add that tag.-Bharatveer (talk) 07:00, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

I have now modified the wikilink to christian view of theism.-Bharatveer (talk) 07:12, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

For the record, arbitration ruling currently prohibits User:Bharatveer to make more than one reverts per page per week. I see he has already reverted this page, so any further reverts will result in a block, according to the arbitration ruling. --Ragib (talk) 17:47, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Ceremonies

Practices like Thugee and others have no relevance in Ceremonies section. Plus also historically inaccurate patronising statements regarding British rule.Please remove them .-Bharatveer (talk) 09:37, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Sorry for sounding daft, but I don't see why Sati and Thugee doesn't fit there. Can you please explain? Cheers Wiki San Roze ^†αLҝ 12:47, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Not daft at all. Thugee was mostly a criminal practice though the practitioners (of all religions) did worship Kali. It would be a stretch to call it a practice of Hinduism (see the linked article) and is certainly not a ceremony. Sati, on the other hand, was a practice in some parts of North India and can be called a practice of Hinduism but I doubt if it would qualify as a ceremony. There have been instances of Sati in modern India but these are rare and the degree to which coercion was involved is not clear. Neither Sati nor Thugee fit in a description of Hindu ceremonies today and the British reference is, at best, gratuitous (see below).--RegentsPark (talk) 02:00, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

A bigger question is the dubious nature of the sentence 'the introduction of British morals foreshadowed future social legislation that substantially reconfigured Indian religious practices'. British morals, substantially reconfigured, in the words of Bertie Wooster, "well, I say, what?" At best the part of the sentence dealing with the outlawing of Sati could be inserted in the politics section along with other oddities (from the opposite side) like "Many of the elements underlying India's casteism and communalism originated during the rule of the British Raj, particularly after the late 19th century; the authorities and others often politicised religion". --RegentsPark (talk) 02:00, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Ha, sounds like even if you can put an end to colonialism, the so called moral ascendency of the colonial masters never wither. Can’t we just state it as religious practices in India? Not to mention that is self denial. At least that is what I think. Cheers Wiki San Roze ^†αLҝ 06:33, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Mentioning that Sati was abolished by colonial rulers is fine with me. It just doesn't fit with a discussion on ceremonies or even practices of Hinduism today. Sati was confined to the North and was not a generally accepted practice in Hinduism and it is a bit odd to include it in that section. And I don't even disagree with a statement that indicates that it was reforms by the British colonial rulers that started a process of reformation in Hinduism with specific mention of Sati because that is historically correct. Perhaps that should go in the History section and be connected to the Reform movements of the Arya Samaj and Raja Ram Mohan Roy and the like (without stuff like British morals and the like). Thugee is a different matter. Mentioning Thugee as a practice is a bit like highlighting the worship of Coca Cola in Chamula as a practice of Christianity!--RegentsPark (talk) 14:05, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Well, my point was to move those to a section under religious practices in India. But on second thought we can call it Antiquated religious practices as well. One of the foremost points to remember in a wiki entry is that people who will be reading this are not looking for usual things found in every society. Yes, this practice was not too common (but not confined to one or two incidents either) but both unique as well as abolished practice. My point: we should be mentioning about both Sati and Thuggee, but not in its current form. Ciao Wiki San Roze ^†αLҝ 14:27, 4 April 2008 (UTC)